Roller tappet conversion.

[molly]

Sometimes the road to Damascus can be a long one Pete.

[guzzisteve]

I would be calling ea dealer in FL and asking them Q's. The regional tech for this area lives right down the road from me, if they have a problem the techs call him.

You COULD call the 800 ph no and complain, see if it does any good.
If they work on BMW's/Duc's they should be able to do the rollerization in record time.
Have them look up Technical Bulletin  #2014-004

[Chuck in Indiana]

Being able to admit you are wrong is not something to be ashamed of. Resolutely continuing to try and maintain an untruth really isn't.........

It takes a big man to say that.. but you *are* a big bugger.   

[muddyjwj]

Some dealers are much better than others. Where are you located?

I'm near West Palm Beach, Florida

[guzzisteve]

I would call the dealer in Miami, they should be pretty well versed at it by now.

[severely]

What Pete Roper said. If you plan to keep the bike go ahead and get it done. Did mine myself, couldn't be happier.

[muddyjwj]

I talked to the people in Miami and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about.  They wanted to charge me a minimum of $500 to inspect the tappets.
I called Cycles of Jacksonville.  They said they had done a couple of griso's so I trailered the bike 4 1/2 hours up there.  Even then I had to explain that the cam box had to come out and I showed them Pete Roper's video.  Here are some photos of what the tappets looked like after only 4500 miles.  The dealer is filing a claim with Piaggio.  Hopefully, all will go well.

[Chuck in Indiana]

You got trouble.. right there in river city..

[Lannis]

I talked to the people in Miami and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about.  They wanted to charge me a minimum of $500 to inspect the tappets.
I called Cycles of Jacksonville.  They said they had done a couple of griso's so I trailered the bike 4 1/2 hours up there.  Even then I had to explain that the cam box had to come out and I showed them Pete Roper's video. 

That's incredible.   The degree of ignorance and incompetence among some people who call themselves "dealers" and "professionals" is appalling.   How could someone call themselves a "Moto Guzzi Dealer" in the year 2018 and not know these things?

My dealer did a great job on mine.   I don't know whether they already knew what to do or if they learned as they went along, as I think mine was the first one they ever did, but they:

1) Assured me they would take care of the problem.
2) Dealt with Guzzi and hammered them into submission even though the tappets were only discolored and not missing any material yet, and got the kit at no cost to me.
3) Fixed it on budget and on schedule, followed up to make sure it was good, and 7000 miles later it's running like a big Italian sewing machine.

ANY dealer COULD do that; but they have to care about doing a good job for you, and some of them obviously don't care, they just cash checks ....

Lannis

[beetle]

I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong. Just one spec of DLC missing is a failure.

I had one fellow argue with me that it was all BS and there was no problem. The ignorant abound.


Excellent work by this dealer to get this sorted for you.

[Lannis]

I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong. Just one spec of DLC missing is a failure.

But where do these guys live, in a glass bell jar or something?   Sure, before they started failing, 'cause how do you know what you don't know?

But NOW, when it's been shown that Every ... Single .... 2008 - 2012 8-valver over a certain mileage has failed?    One skim over this list, one look at Guzzi service advice (or whatever they call them), even one discussion with someone who's literate about Guzzis would tell them to WATCH OUT!   Not just say "Duh, really, dude?"   

Lannis

[pete roper]

Excellent, the vid should at least convince people that pulling a cambox is NOT a $500 job!

I mean? It's a Moto Guzzi FFS! How hard can it be???

[muddyjwj]

That's incredible.   The degree of ignorance and incompetence among some people who call themselves "dealers" and "professionals" is appalling.   How could someone call themselves a "Moto Guzzi Dealer" in the year 2018 and not know these things?

My dealer did a great job on mine.   I don't know whether they already knew what to do or if they learned as they went along, as I think mine was the first one they ever did, but they:

1) Assured me they would take care of the problem.
2) Dealt with Guzzi and hammered them into submission even though the tappets were only discolored and not missing any material yet, and got the kit at no cost to me.
3) Fixed it on budget and on schedule, followed up to make sure it was good, and 7000 miles later it's running like a big Italian sewing machine.

ANY dealer COULD do that; but they have to care about doing a good job for you, and some of them obviously don't care, they just cash checks ....

Lannis

So far my dealer has been great.  I think they too are sort of learning as they go, but they promised to do whatever I wanted them to do.  They said they had inspected some Griso's in the past, however, when I got there the mechanic told me that both Grisos checked out ok.  Knowing what we all know now, if the Grisos he inspected had as little as a few thousand miles on them, I would think they would have shown some wear on the DLC coating.  That's why I insisted they show me actual pictures of the tappets just to make sure they weren't just checking valve clearances.  I have to admit they have been good to work with and they assured me they would do everything possible to get Piaggio to step up to the plate. I think the problem here in Florida is every single dealer I spoke with (there are 5 of them) sell Guzzi's as sort of a side line. One dealer told me he was not very familiar with Guzzi's and he has only one wrench that works on them. The showrooms are full of Honda's, Yamaha's Ducati's and Triumph's but if you look in the corner you may see 2 or 3 Guzzi's. Lets face it, Guzzi's are few and far between and thats why we love them....

[twowings]

Excellent, the vid should at least convince people that pulling a cambox is NOT a $500 job!

I mean? It's a Moto Guzzi FFS! How hard can it be???

I trust your advice on this much more than that VascoDG guy!! 

[muddyjwj]

A huge thank you to Pete Roper for taking the time to share his knowledge and experience.  The information that you have shared has been a tremendous help with regard to the flat tappet issue. 
Thanks Pete!!!

[Lannis]

So far my dealer has been great.  I think they too are sort of learning as they go, but they promised to do whatever I wanted them to do.  They said they had inspected some Griso's in the past, however, when I got there the mechanic told me that both Grisos checked out ok.  Knowing what we all know now, if the Grisos he inspected had as little as a few thousand miles on them, I would think they would have shown some wear on the DLC coating.  That's why I insisted they show me actual pictures of the tappets just to make sure they weren't just checking valve clearances.  I have to admit they have been good to work with and they assured me they would do everything possible to get Piaggio to step up to the plate. I think the problem here in Florida is every single dealer I spoke with (there are 5 of them) sell Guzzi's as sort of a side line. One dealer told me he was not very familiar with Guzzi's and he has only one wrench that works on them. The showrooms are full of Honda's, Yamaha's Ducati's and Triumph's but if you look in the corner you may see 2 or 3 Guzzi's. Lets face it, Guzzi's are few and far between and thats why we love them....

Well, it's a credit to you that you're working with your dealer in that way.   But if I hung out my shingle as a doctor, and a patient came in with appendicitis, and the patient had to show the doctor where to cut and where to look up what an appendix was ... I'd say the doctor didn't have any business calling himself one.

Any job I took on in my life, I busted my arse to learn EVERYTHING there was to know about it.   I didn't tell my customers "Well, I know I'm supposed to be the expert, but you'll have to help me with that because I don't do the research to get good at what I do for a living."

They just shouldn't be hanging out Moto Guzzi dealer signs if they know less about Moto Guzzis than people who scan this very list a couple times a week .... !   

But ... you've noticed that moaning about it won't get you back on the road, so good luck and happy fixin'!

Lannis

[muddyjwj]

Thanks Lannis!

You have also been a great help...

I agree 100% but as you say the goal is to get back on the bike and hopefully have Piaggio share in the process.  If that happens and my dealer gets the bike back together again I will be a happy camper. If all goes well I'll be showing the Guzzi to all the Harley folks on the Lake Okeechobee locks in a week or two... 

[pete roper]

We had an MV in last week. That was fun. Shit those things sound angry! No biggie but really it too is essentially two wheels and a horn.

No, we don't have a shim kit for it or any, if needed, I dunno, special tools but it came in because it's clutch was dragging and the owner, (Dave, the squeeze of the lovely Stacey who works at the top pub.) had been told by the 'Local' dealer in Canberra that a.) They couldn't look at it for three weeks and b.) it would probably need a new master cylinder which would cost a king's ransom!

He was going to take it up to Sydney to the dealer up there. The shop is on the northside! Two hours through central Sydney with a badly dragging clutch? Bad enough to stall at lights?! How about no. How about get *******!

All it was was the threaded adjuster on the actuating plunger. Same mechanism but slightly different to the system on the CARC bikes. Ten minutes, done! Cost? Two beers!

It's not rocket science!

[pete roper]

I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong. Just one spec of DLC missing is a failure.

I had one fellow argue with me that it was all BS and there was no problem. The ignorant abound.


Excellent work by this dealer to get this sorted for you.

Sadly, I think that a lot of *Mechanics* wouldn't know tappet damage if you bashed it up their blurters with a Kango hammer. A

[beetle]

We had an MV in last week. new master cylinder which would cost a king's ransom!...
...All it was was the threaded adjuster on the actuating plunger. Same mechanism but slightly different to the system on the CARC bikes. Ten minutes, done! Cost? Two beers!

It's not rocket science!

Three weeks and $500.

Arse!

and

Win!

[pete roper]

One final thing, and I'm really not 'Big Noting' myself, I probably have as much, if not more experience with this issue than pretty much anyone else who isn't living in a cave and doesn't use the innerneck!

If people have shops that are ignorant, need advice, or simply want reassurance about any aspect of rollerisation or any other aspect of 8V or CARC bike mechanicals they are more than welcome to contact me direct.

motomoda.roper<at>gmail.com or, from overseas, +61 417 462 440. If phoning though please member the world is a globe and there are time zones. I don't respond well to being called in the middle of the night! Just remember, if the earth was flat cats would of pushed everything off the edge of it by now!

The CARC bikes, despite their seeming unpopularity, are the current apogee of Guzzi development. Set up right they are a joy. You either 'Get it' or you don't. But they were the last attempt by Guzzi to remain relevant and 'Modern'.

Pete

[ohiorider]

"The CARC bikes, despite their seeming unpopularity, are the current apogee of Guzzi development. Set up right they are a joy. You either 'Get it' or you don't. But they were the last attempt by Guzzi to remain relevant and 'Modern."

Pete

Agreed! 

Bob

[steffen]

I think a lot of dealers would look at those tappets and not think anything was wrong.

That's my dealer...

My tappets looked a lot like that.

But thanks to you guys, that cleared up this mess, I knew better, and told him, that no way was he putting that sh*t back in...

He sent pics to Piaggio, they owned it and delivered the parts...

All's good - now...

[muddyjwj]

Piaggio needs to step up here:

Without good customer support, a strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships and customer loyalty, they will never be able to compete with the big Japanese companies or dare I say Harley Davidson...

Harleys are beautiful bikes but IMO certainly not better bikes than MG and Aprilia....yet people are lining up every weekend at the big Harley dealerships to spend their last dollar on a new Street Glide and eat a few hot dogs and hamburgers while picking out a new bike.

Think about it Piaggio!! 

[rocker59]

Piaggio needs to step up here:

Without good customer support, a strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships and customer loyalty, they will never be able to compete with the big Japanese companies or dare I say Harley Davidson...

Harleys are beautiful bikes but IMO certainly not better bikes than MG and Aprilia....yet people are lining up every weekend at the big Harley dealerships to spend their last dollar on a new Street Glide and eat a few hot dogs and hamburgers while picking out a new bike.

Think about it Piaggio!!

You're correct.  Guzzi will never compete with Honda or Harley.  And, they shouldn't try.

How many USA dealers would you want in your "strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships" for a marque which imports about 1,000 units annually into the United States?

Harley-Davidson sold about 170 times that number in The USA during 2017.

[jlburgess]

That's normal wear or so I've been told by dealer who shall not be named.  Pfft!!! 
Piaggio will give you the parts.  Don't take no for an answer.  I had to go to a second dealer to get it done.

I talked to the people in Miami and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about.  They wanted to charge me a minimum of $500 to inspect the tappets.
I called Cycles of Jacksonville.  They said they had done a couple of griso's so I trailered the bike 4 1/2 hours up there.  Even then I had to explain that the cam box had to come out and I showed them Pete Roper's video.  Here are some photos of what the tappets looked like after only 4500 miles.  The dealer is filing a claim with Piaggio.  Hopefully, all will go well.

[muddyjwj]

You're correct.  Guzzi will never compete with Honda or Harley.  And, they shouldn't try.

How many USA dealers would you want in your "strong chain of COMPETENT dealerships" for a marque which imports about 1,000 units annually into the United States?

Harley-Davidson sold about 170 times that number in The USA during 2017.

I was referring to Piaggio not just MG but I agree they are a small fraction of the motorcycle market in the States and that isn't a bad thing however it is all the more reason Piaggio should do everything possible to build customer loyalty. I love my Guzzi and the dealer I bought it from was amazing however they closed shop and ever since I have had serious issues with customer support and finding dealers that really know anything about Guzzis. 4 out of 5 approved dealers I spoke with had no idea what I was talking about when I asked about the 8V flat tappet issue. I don't mean to imply that Guzzi should have thousands of dealerships but for a small marque it is essential that the dealers they have be on top of things. As  Lannis said, after 10 years of posts about the flat tappet problem how can an approved Guzzi dealer not know all there is to know about the issue. That coupled with the fact that Guzzi didn't step up when this issue first became evident doesn't exactly make folks feel warm and fuzzy about making a second Piaggio purchase.

I didn't mean to imply that Guzzi should try to run HD out of business or become a giant in the industry. That would take away the the fact that they are unique, however, to stay in business they must compete for a small share of that market. To do that they need return customers and good reviews. They won't get either if they don't take care of the customers they have...

[pete roper]

I'm not familiar with the system in the US but over here there are layers of problems. Piaggio's arrogance is at the top of the triangle and then it filters down to the importer, which changes often, and their greed and indifference. That in turn leads to a rapid turnover of dealers and service agents which means in turn that even if the people at the coalface doing the work actually like Guzzis, and most of them don't, thinking them old, slow and weird, they don't get the chance to learn their idiocyncracies or see enough of them to identify *Common* issues.

In reality though apart from the flat tappet issue the 8V bikes are, generally, very reliable. It's stupid crap like bearings not being greased that causes the most problems. Compared to many other marques with far more enviable reputations for *Reliability* I honestly think Guzzi stack up pretty damn well. An awful lot of the work Michael and I do is actually un-buggering the 'Repairs' and 'Tuning' inflicted on the poor things by supposed 'Technicians' and 'Tuners'!

Pete

[muddyjwj]

That's normal wear or so I've been told by dealer who shall not be named.  Pfft!!! 
Piaggio will give you the parts.  Don't take no for an answer.  I had to go to a second dealer to get it done.

Incredible! there just isn't any excuse for that kind of ignorance....hats off to you for standing your ground! My dealer has been very good now that they have seen Pete's video so if anyone in the southeast needs to have their 8V rollerized I can point them in the right direction...

[pete roper]

Do remember that the vid just shows removing a cambox. As I said though the other side, which requires removal of the tank, takes about the same time, on a Griso. Some other models take a bit longer because of the amount of bodywork that needs removing and the fact that some of them need the airbox taking out to get to the tensioner plug on the RH side.

With the rollerisation itself if it's an A or B kit bike swapping the camboxes takes not a lot more time than removing them but of course the bike needs tuning and servicing as well when the work is done and as I've said it is my opinion that flushing the sump with a couple of litres of oil is a joke. The sump should be dropped and cleaned out properly.

With C and D kit bikes the heads need to come off and disassembled and that takes more time again. With Stelvios the heads are also bolted to the frame, again, more time.

Really though it's worth doing. Not doing it will reduce your bike to scrap. There's no money to be had in a busted-arsed 8V even if the rest of it is immaculate. The motor is the 'Jewel in the Crown' without that it's worthless.

Pete