Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: chaoselephant23 on September 04, 2014, 01:57:24 PM
-
Howdy y'all!
Recently I inherited my uncles 03 Stone Touring!!! Thats the good part. Now for the bad news... it sat in storage for 8 years with a full tank of gas thanks to some pesky relatives:( All 8 years it was covered up by a DryRider. First 5 of those 8 years was in a fairly temperate garage. Last 3 of those 8 years was spent in a shed that was not good at keeping the weather or the critters out.
All summer long I have been procuring parts, tools and knowledge from all across the internet, service manuals, (this place:), etc... in the hopes of reviving a bike that I have wanted to ride the past 8 years. My plans are as follows:
* Oil change
- new oil
- new filter
- replace or clean oil mesh filter
* Clean air filter box
* Replace air filter
* Replace fuel filter
* Clean inside of fuel tank
- Going with SeaFoam
* Replace all fuel hoses
- Visual inspection found cracked FI and Vapor Recovery hoses around connection points
- FI with Gates 27340 Barricade MPI Fuel Line Hose
- Vapor Recover with Goodyear 65126 and 65125
* Replace internal fuel pump hoses
- with Gates 27093 submersible hose
* Lubricate clutch cable
* Lubricate throttle cables
* Send fuel injectors out to RC Engineering for a cleaning
* Clean throttle body
* Balance throttle body
* Reset TPS (using excellent write up found on WildGuzzi.com)
* Replace spark plugs
* Adjust tappets
- Will also be assuring that the hydraulic lifters are shimmed properly as per the service bulletins
* Tighten head nuts
* Gearbox oil change
- Have the Moly Additive from Harpers
* Final drive oil change
* Front fork oil change
- Going to do fork seals since I am in there
- Also need to replace one of the dust boots
* Replace battery with Odyssey PC680
* Replace brake fluid
* Replace brake pads (if needed)
* Adjust wheel spoke tension (if needed)
Statement of work done! Now time for Q&A:
* Visual inspection found some small cracks in the front and rear tire. Do they need to be replaced?
- Tires inflate to values in MOM without issue
- Holding pressure without loss for past week
* Throttle moves very very slightly. Hoping that lubricating the cables frees them up. Where to next, should lubrication not be enough?
* Should I clean the fuel tank with the submersible pump in or out?
* Any tests I can run on the submersible pump to verify it still functions?
- If operational, would you clean the pump? How would you clean the pump?
Anything missing? Anything optional? Anything listed you would recommend against?
Thanks in advance to all!
-
That's a long list. If you want to call, I will help you out. I don't type that much. 816.797.2753.
-
Stored for 8 years? I'd replace the tires without question.
-
You've got more patience than me!
I would have checked the oils, put a new Odessey battery-in and gone for a ride :)
Work-out the details later -life's too short.
Then you would have guess that your uncle parked it because it needed a new clutch and gone from there.
K.I.S.S. comes to mind ;)
-
03? it may suffer from worn cam lobes if it didn't get the factory upgrades.
That was the year engines were failing from over fast wear of cams and rocker problems.
Don't ask how I know.
-
While/when/if the back tyre is off, remove the bevel box and lube the driveshaft splines. Replace box, lube splines in bevel box.
-
Welcome! can I just call you Chaos? that's a pretty big list.. with a lot of editing you could be riding by Sunday..
I'm w/Steph..
suck out all that old gas and put in some fresh non-oxy, check oil and tire pressure.. see if it runs..
-
I'd put on some shoes on the bike if the old ones are cracked.
I'm with the other folks: get the throttle working smoothly, get rid of the old gas and put in some new, change the oil and fire it up. Do the other stuff, as needed, in the winter.
Rich A
-
Moly goes in final drive, not gearbox but it's okay if it's already in the tranny.
-
I agree with the responses above. If the bike was ridden much by the PO the internal fuel hose was, most likely, already replaced. The hose and pump should have survived the long immersion fine. I would not send the injectors out preemptively either. Since the tank was filled it should be in pretty good shape. Add a dose of Seafoam and see what happens.
-
Glad I consulted the Oracle's first. I've had the urge to cast off my patience as I can feel the bike sputtering into life already (no really its a recurring dream:)
Got down to business last night after work. Removed the tank. Removed the air box. Found it coated in leftover mice piss and stuffed full of pink fiberglass insulation. Checked the throttle action. When I engage the throttle, the left cable (standing from behind the bike) starts to move, but that's all that moves. With luck I'll get the chance to have more time observing this evening. Most definitely this weekend.
Stored for 8 years? I'd replace the tires without question.
Added to the winter list!
Then you would have guess that your uncle parked it because it needed a new clutch and gone from there.
Luckily the bike has the double plate clutch! During my initial research I came across the single plate nightmares. Scared me pretty bad. But thanks to you diligent forum members I was able to figure out how to identify the clutch type. Pic from the inspection hole. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6D0kHUZb3RtY3NkYVl6alQyQnM/edit?usp=sharing) Note the clutch dust. Blew out the chamber with compressed air. Not much came out, but a nasty smell did. Fingers crossed.
03? it may suffer from worn cam lobes if it didn't get the factory upgrades.
That was the year engines were failing from over fast wear of cams and rocker problems.
Don't ask how I know.
About a month ago I contacted New Haven Powersports, New Haven, CT inquiring as to which recall services were not performed. Two came up: fork and valve/camshaft inspection. As far as I can tell from the Service Bulletin (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6D0kHUZb3RtOGxtcjViTU1iNjg/edit?usp=sharing), properly shimmed hyrdraulic lifters avoid the issue. When I adjust the tappets (this winter:) I plan on verifying the clearances as per the service bulletins procedure (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6D0kHUZb3RtOGxtcjViTU1iNjg/edit?usp=sharing). In addition, I plan on bringing the bike in for the inspections. Just need to find a trustworthy mechanic in CT or vicinity.
While/when/if the back tyre is off, remove the bevel box and lube the driveshaft splines. Replace box, lube splines in bevel box.
Added to the winter list!
Moly goes in final drive, not gearbox but it's okay if it's already in the tranny.
Good to know on both fronts. Luckily I haven't changed the oil yet.
-
I have a feeling that I am almost there ;D
This weekend I got:
* Throttle working smoothly again
* Cleaned the air box
* Replaced the air filter
* Drained the old gas from the tank and filled with SeaFoam treated 93 Premium
* Checked all oil levels
* As per Harpers FAQ, sprayed penetrating oil into spark plug holes, let sit for 12 hours and slowly rotated crankshaft until it rotated freely
* Installed new battery
Turned key to Start position. Flipped engine stop switch to Start position. Hear the fuel pump engage. Checked that the headlights worked, turn signals and horn worked. Pressed the starter switch. POP!!! 15A fuse blew.
Pulled the starter relay and cleaned the contacts. Pressed the starter relay firmly back into place. Went through the ignition sequence. Blew the fuse again. This time however I heard the starter relay click.
Next I checked for loose connections from the battery to the solenoid. Everything is tight. Read the voltage on the battery. And the voltage at the solenoid. Same values: 12.84V.
Next I cleaned all the battery contacts and exposed fresh metal. Applied some dielectric grease to all contacts. Then connected em to the battery. Went through the ignition sequence. Blew the fuse again.
I then placed a screwdriver from the +12 solenoid terminal to the tiny start trigger terminal on the solenoid in hopes of un-sticking the solenoid. Got sparks to fly. Figuring I did not get this procedure right.
Next I focused in on the ignition switch. The soldered connections were a little dirty. Cleaned em up. Blew the fuse again.
Going to keep reading up on how to test electrical circuits. And scour the forums for any tips, tricks and testing procedures.
Tonights test are:
* more thorough inspection of solenoid connections
* voltage drop at the solenoid when the ignition switch is engaged
-
which fuse is blowing?
-
Fuse F2, Key Switch.
-
Chaos: You said above that you are "going to adjust the tappets this winter". Your bike is a "hydro" (I own two) and you don't adjust the tappets/valve clearances. Really. As in, "Never". Leave them alone. They're fine.
Ralph
-
Ok, now you know why he parked it. Sounds like the starter is frozen up from the magnets coming loose. You *can* turn the engine over by hand, right?
-
What Ralph said wrt to valves. It's a hydro - you should never have to adjust them.
Having said that, if the cam recall has NOT been done. DO IT! You dont need little bits of your cam circulating thru your motor.
If you can provide the VIN, there is a lister who will research the vehicle's history wrt factory recalls. Or remove the rocker boxes and post a pic of the valves/rockers - there will be visual evidence that the recall has been performed.
Cheers!
G
-
I blew that same fuse with a loose connection. Keep checking them.
"Applied some dielectric grease to all contacts." Uh oh raggy!
Check for hydro recall (see above) and check if it is a single or dual plate clutch (pics are on this forum). Do these first!
-
STARTER
Chinese works fine mine 4 years old
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Starter-D6RA21-D6RA210-750-1100-1969-04-12V-18355-/201162016239?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ed630c5ef&vxp=mtr#ht_2070wt_758 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Starter-D6RA21-D6RA210-750-1100-1969-04-12V-18355-/201162016239?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ed630c5ef&vxp=mtr#ht_2070wt_758)
micky
-
Chaos: You said above that you are "going to adjust the tappets this winter". Your bike is a "hydro" (I own two) and you don't adjust the tappets/valve clearances. Really. As in, "Never". Leave them alone. They're fine.
Ralph
Excellent to know!
Ok, now you know why he parked it. Sounds like the starter is frozen up from the magnets coming loose. You *can* turn the engine over by hand, right?
Yes, I was. Sprayed penetrating oil into heads from spark plug holes. Let sit for 12 hours. Rotated the crankshaft slowly until it freely rotated.
I blew that same fuse with a loose connection. Keep checking them.
"Applied some dielectric grease to all contacts." Uh oh raggy!
Check for hydro recall (see above) and check if it is a single or dual plate clutch (pics are on this forum). Do these first!
Guzzi dealer, New Haven Powersports in New Haven, CT was kind enough to run my VIN. Here are the recall inspections that were NOT performed:
* CAM
* Front Fork
Luckily the bike has the double plate clutch. Proof is in the pudding: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6D0kHUZb3RtY3NkYVl6alQyQnM/edit?usp=sharing
STARTER
Chinese works fine mine 4 years old
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Starter-D6RA21-D6RA210-750-1100-1969-04-12V-18355-/201162016239?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ed630c5ef&vxp=mtr#ht_2070wt_758 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Starter-D6RA21-D6RA210-750-1100-1969-04-12V-18355-/201162016239?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ed630c5ef&vxp=mtr#ht_2070wt_758)
micky
Thanks for the tip! Hopefully I won't have to, but good to know they can be had for less than a hundo.
Didn't get the chance to run my growing lists of tests (no thanks to Kiwi_Roy's input in various other postings:) last night:( Busy preparing for a camping trip this weekend! Chances are I won't be able to run my tests until my day off on Monday. Post up with more findings as I get them.
Been having the feeling that the +12 lead out to the starter needs to be cleaned, greased up and reconnected. Fingers are crossed!
-
Consider the engine to be junk until the cam recall is done.
-
Been having the feeling that the +12 lead out to the starter needs to be cleaned, greased up and reconnected. Fingers are crossed!
You've already said you jumpered the starter and it didn't crank. I'm still saying the starter is toast. No cam recall done? <sigh> I know of one 40K mile bike that hasn't had it done, but it's the ONLY one. The triple tree crack is easy enough to inspect.
-
Luckily the bike has the double plate clutch. Proof is in the pudding: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6D0kHUZb3RtY3NkYVl6alQyQnM/edit?usp=sharing
Great to see!
Bunch of bikes went over 30k waiting on the hydro kits to hit stock back in '05-'06 (mine did 36k), but it's the first issue you need to address. You don't want a bunch of metal in that motor. There have been a couple of posts on here in the past few months that have been able to get that covered by MG so start working that now.
-
And don't forget to have the oil pump examined during the cam procedure. That's where the metal bits go.
-
You've already said you jumpered the starter and it didn't crank. I'm still saying the starter is toast. No cam recall done? <sigh> I know of one 40K mile bike that hasn't had it done, but it's the ONLY one. The triple tree crack is easy enough to inspect.
I am somewhat suspect of the jumpered starter tests results. Are sparks supposed to fly when the jumper, in my case a screwdriver, is connected?
And don't forget to have the oil pump examined during the cam procedure. That's where the metal bits go.
Added to my reminders. Thanks!
-
Great to see!
Bunch of bikes went over 30k waiting on the hydro kits to hit stock back in '05-'06 (mine did 36k), but it's the first issue you need to address. You don't want a bunch of metal in that motor. There have been a couple of posts on here in the past few months that have been able to get that covered by MG so start working that now.
I surely hope that MG is still covering that one. Right now I'm awaiting MG approval to cover this job on my 03 Aluminium (VERY low miles) that was supposedly done back in about 2005 by a local dealer, for the previous owner. Was never done. Europa Macchina is trying their best for me.
-
I am somewhat suspect of the jumpered starter tests results. Are sparks supposed to fly when the jumper, in my case a screwdriver, is connected?
Added to my reminders. Thanks!
Yep. Electrons gotta go somewhere.. ;D
-
remove the starter and bench test it.....see if it kicks out the gear or not? ???
Tim
-
You've already said you jumpered the starter and it didn't crank. I'm still saying the starter is toast. No cam recall done? <sigh> I know of one 40K mile bike that hasn't had it done, but it's the ONLY one. The triple tree crack is easy enough to inspect.
Yes, very easy to inspect. Also, I believe the at-risk lower triple clamps had "35-02" stamped on them. Mostly the 2002 and early 2003 models had these, from what I recall.
Stay away from the cheap Chinese starters. They run about $100 on E-bay. For under $200, you can get a genuine Valeo. They last a lot longer and won't get you stranded. Remember, you cannot bump start an EFI Guzzi.
Ralph
-
Had a chance to bench test the starter today. First test didn't get the gear spinning. So I disassembled the starter. Cleaned up the gears and other moving parts. Started playing with the action of each mechanism. Got the solenoid to click. Then the stater shaft started to spin freely. Reassembled. Performed another bench test... Gear started spinning!!!!!
I put the starter back in the bike. Performed the starting procedure. Fuse F2 did not blow. Bike didn't start :-[
Going to replace the spark plugs. Figure they may have fouled. If that's not it I'll be trawling ye olde internet for more data.
-
Good news. Bike started!!! Tried one last time before I put new plugs in and voila.
Not out of the water yet though. Let the bike warm up. Depressed the clutch. Shifted into first gear. Engine comes to a halt. Checked the play on the clutch cable. Was a little off. Adjusted to 3.5mm as per owners manual. Tried again. Bike comes to a halt the moment I kick down on the clutch pedal.
Could this be a symptom of bad clutch plates?
-
Nope, the bike has sat for so long the clutch plates are stuck together, too bad you don't have a center stand, you could put it first gear and run it in first gear then apply the rear brake while giving it some gas to break the clutch plates loose. Had it happen to me before, once I broke them loose, no problem. You might putting it in high gear, pull in the clutch and see if you and some big guys can make it roll ~;
-
Tried FGO's suggestion,
You might putting it in high gear, pull in the clutch and see if you and some big guys can make it roll ~;
albeit without the extra muscle. I can get the bike moving forwards up to a point. Then the back wheel locks up and slides across the ground. Going to wait for an evening when I can rally up some troops to try again.
Went out to try again this morning before work cause I never give in. But noticed something odd. The clutch cable lacked any free play! When I last left the bike, the clutch cable had the owners manual recommended free play of 3 to 4mm.
An earlier observation seems more pertinent now. On my first attempt at shifting the bike into gear whilst the bike was running, the clutch cable free play went from 3.5 mm to more than an inch. At the time I thought this wasn't a big deal as the engine had just stalled. Figured the cable had stretched from the sudden stop.
With the cable now tightening after just sitting at rest, I have a feeling it is a symptom that can help to diagnose. Any thoughts?
Also:
- could fresh lube on the cables with cold new england september nights cause the cable tightening?
- can clutch plates fuse themselves together?
- what would you have to do to fuse them together?
- would a mineral spirit batch help to unstick the clutch plates?
SIDENOTE: In my forum searches I found info on throwout bearings being the cause of loosening cables. Looked under the bike. Found the outer body of the throwout system to be flush with the tranny box.
-
The clutch cable freeplay changing is some telling evidence. IMHO it sounds like the friction material has come loose and is stacking up in there.
-
You should be able to push the bike in gear with the clutch lever pulled in.
The stalling when you try to engage first with the motor running may be the Neutral switch / Sidestand interlock
-
The clutch cable freeplay changing is some telling evidence. IMHO it sounds like the friction material has come loose and is stacking up in there.
I'm with Terry on this one..
-
Shucks! Crabbing the frame here I come ;D
Post up progress as I find time to get in there.
Big thanks to everyone for their guidance thus far!
-
Status Update:
Now that September's Vacation spree is over, I can refocus on the bike. (Not like I haven't been sneaking it in to my schedule or anything :)
Haven't gotten to crabbing the frame yet, but I have been educating myself on how its done, needed tooling and other things I should do beyond inspection & repair of the clutch. Here's that other list:
- Cleaning and re-greasing wheel bearings, replacing any if needed
- Cush drive modification (removing half & punching holes through the rubber pucks, if its not already done)
- Cleaning and re-greasing cush drive
- Cleaning and re-greasing rear drive splines
- Cleaning and re-greasing u-joint splines
- Cleaning and re-greasing swingarm bearings
- Cleaning and re-greasing u-joint carrier bearing, replacing if needed
- Replacing throwout bearing
- Replacing push rod seals
- Replacing clutch outer body o-ring
- Replacing clutch return spring
- Inspection of main front seal
- Inspection of transmission input seal
Checked the front fork for the triple tree crack. No cracks!!! Stamped 26 - 02.
Took off the valve cover to find:
Pic 1 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/d82qfiska6zeie2/under%20valve%20cover%201.jpg?dl=0)
Pic 2 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/iudu2yqxnvsm8fq/under%20valve%20cover%202.jpg?dl=0)
Pic 3 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4cv8wksgetruw0q/under%20valve%20cover%203.jpg?dl=0)
Pic 4 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/27khao97bl27vub/under%20valve%20cover%204.jpg?dl=0)
Pic 5 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/pzzlitditutgi7a/under%20valve%20cover%205.jpg?dl=0)
Based on what I have been reading I believe that the CAM recall was performed i.e. adjusters screwdriver slot machined off, shiny aluminum color to the valve spring tops.
However what I see in my motor does not match up with pics of a proven motor, one that had the CAM recall performed and is still in service). Here is link to a proven motor pic taken from thread '2004 Cal EV cam update (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45144.0)', http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45144.msg677444#msg677444 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45144.msg677444#msg677444)
Has the CAM recall been performed on my motor?
-
Now you have the starter operating I suggest putting the bike in top gear, pulling the clutch in and with the foot brake on, pressing Start. That should break the clutch free if it's just rusted in place. You could unplug the ECU so there's no chance of it starting.
The 15 Amp start fuse will pop if the solenoid is sticking because one coil in the solenoid draws about 40 Amps, normally this coil is removed from circuit in < 1/2 second.
By the time you get that bike going it will be well sorted all that you are doing to it ;-T
-
Now you have the starter operating I suggest putting the bike in top gear, pulling the clutch in and with the foot brake on, pressing Start. That should break the clutch free if it's just rusted in place. You could unplug the ECU so there's no chance of it starting.
The 15 Amp start fuse will pop if the solenoid is sticking because one coil in the solenoid draws about 40 Amps, normally this coil is removed from circuit in < 1/2 second.
By the time you get that bike going it will be well sported all that you are doing to it ;-T
Thanks for the thumbs up Roy! This whole project has been a lot of fun and I haven't even ridden yet ;D I want to do as much as I can to help this bikes longevity. But also I just want to get my hands dirty with every aspect of motorcycle maintenance.
I'll be trying your suggestion the next chance I can get. So long as CT's fall rain-a-thon lets up >:(
-
Quote from Choas:
This whole project has been a lot of fun and I haven't even ridden yet
I wish I had that kind of persistence and attitude with mechanical things. What you have done and gone through so far would be my idea of a nightmare which would have caused me to pull my remaining hair out, kick the cat and drink a bottle of Beam. More power to you! :BEER:
GliderJohn
-
Tried Kiwi_Roy's suggestion to no avail :(
And thus began the journey to the center of the clutch...
Found the clutch plate closest to the ring gear had catastrophically failed :o All friction material was gone. Even some of the metal holding the friction material to the spline had broken away.
Clutch Plate 1 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0do8t1cel2qpyn0/clutch%20plate%201.jpg?dl=0)
The second clutch plate fared better except for the big divets.
Clutch Plate 2 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/qv85fypxzflqn84/clutch%20plate%202.jpg?dl=0)
Luckily no damage to the flywheel, pressure plate, ring gear and clutch hub. Intermediate plate looks fine too, but since I already got a replacement and don't have a straight edge (nor am I ready to shell out for one), I'll be replacing the intermediate plate on ceremony. Clutch plates are going to be replaced with SD Tec plates from MGCycle.com (http://www.mgcycle.com)
Next up on this train ride is the gearbox. Going to:
- Replace input seal
- Replace input o-rings
- Replace output seal
- Replace output o-rings
- Replace shift return spring
- Inspect for polymide caged bearings and replace as needed
- Shim the box
-
WOW!
Do you think that's why your Uncle parked it?
You are doing a fantastic job ;-T
-
Stripped the gearbox this past weekend. Quite a Thanksgiving indeed!
Along the way I found something very interesting: a pitted shift detent plunger.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/lkznqxiq5itjl63/shift%20detent%20plunger.jpg?dl=1)
Pretty sure I will need replace this one with a new one. Yes no?
Of more concern is, what would be the cause of this pitting?
I conjecture that poor shimming of the gearbox is suspect. If not shimmed properly, the plunger would not be centered in the shift drum slots.
I also believe the pitting is why finding neutral on the box takes a concentrated effort. Even then I still didn't hit neutral. Making the end case removal a little trickier.
In addition, I sourced 3205 AC3's manufactured by NTN from Motion Industries. However I was duped and sent 5205 AC3's with 9 balls, no filling slot (which contradicts the website listing) and luckily steel cages.
What are your thoughts on running 9 ball steel caged bearings on the front of the input shaft and rear of the output shaft?
-
I'd run em.. but.. if you paid for 3205 AC3's you should *get* 3205 AC3's.
-
Thanks Chuck for the sage advice! I was really spit between getting the job done half way right and now as compared to a week from now and perfecto. Patience wins:) I talked with Motion Industries this afternoon. They agreed to an exchange. I'll know tomorrow, when their product guy gets back from sick leave, on whether or not they can actually source the 14 ball steel cage 3205 AC3's.
Anyone got an opinion on the shift detent plungers pits?
-
Well in the end, my opinion was to replace the shift detent plunger. Didn't pass the float test lol
After three long month's, spent going to Colorado to visit my brother for Christmas, then coming back to a gnarly New England winter that meant not a dime spent on resorts as the local spots were powedered up (which meant a constant source of distraction), I finally got back to the bike.
Started off replacing the 3205's and the 6303, as it felt notchy. Did end up getting the correct 3205s from Motion Industries.
Next moved onto shimming the gearbox. Took 6 take down and re-builds to get the shifting dialed in. Totally worth it! Bike shifts up and down without issue and finds neutral with a very satisfying click. And I have a much greater understanding of how the box works. I don't think that many shimming attempts were necessary. Its just that my OCD kicked in. Enjoyed gathering the results from each shim job. Then performing analysis against all the data sets. Wanted to absolutely be sure I was choosing the correct shim and not arbitrarily because 'i feel its right'. I eventually settled on 1mm front and 1mm back. Technically the gearbox would like 1.1mm front and 0.9mm back, based on all data sets, but I'm too lazy and cheap to get some custom shims made up.
With the shim sizes figured out, I assembled the gearbox. All new seals and o-rings were installed. Shift return spring was replaced. Shift detent plunger was replaced. Input and output shaft nuts were replaced. Input shaft nut had been banged on chisel style. Lock washer behind the nut was missing 4 tangs. Output shaft collar had been pounded into place more than once. One spot already had been broken away. Tried to un-bend the other spot without breaking, but it did not. I also added back the missing lower speedo drive washer (thanks Harpers:). Installation made easy by the leftover piece of insulation hanging wire I had after making the fork arm bent coat hanger tool. Tickled me pink to know that a simple piece of straight metal that cost next to nothing was the most useful tool for the gearbox and beyond!
I then started work on the swingarm. I was going to ignore the carrier bearing, but with 25k on the odometer and Guizziology harping on about 25k to 30k I decided to get in deep. Glad I did as the carrier bearing was notchy and one of the U-Joint crosses was feeling stiff. Sent the U-Joint out the John Chicoine for a rebuild. Turned it around in <2 weeks!!!! Installed the carrier bearing without issue. Put the U-Joint in the freezer overnight. They tried to install the U-Joint, but did not have any success. As I needed to get the bike out of the garage for a garage door install and with a home remodel needing all my attention, I am going to have the dealership install the u-joint while the bike is in for the recall work.
While I was waiting for the u-joint to get back from servicing, I reassembled the front end. Gearbox went on. Attached clutch cable and verified that the clutch and gearbox are working. Cleaned the throttle body very thoroughly before reinserting the RC Engineering cleaned fuel injectors. Replaced the M5 with 3mm shallow hex head screws attaching the FIs with deep socket hex cap screws. Want to avoid stripping those screws again. Was not fun being so close to the throttle body with a metal cutting wheel. Hooked up all connections. Replaced all fuel hoses, vapor recovery system hoses, engine breather hoses and 8mm ID airbox breather hose. Got the airbox back in. Mounted the front wheel. Cleaned the caliper and brake disc. Installed new front brake pads. Found out why overfilling brakes is-a-not-a-good:( Next replaced the rear brake pads. Bled front and rear brakes. Then took on the challenge of replacing the internal fuel pumps filter. Took a while, but got done with an improvement. Last person in there did not zip tie the filter tightly to the pump. Filter had gouges in the bottom lip from pressing up against an electrical connection strong enough to dig in deep:() Good thing I was in there:) Finally, after the months of toiling away, I put the battery in, took a few deep breaths and pressed the ignition switch….. BROOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/iuhuxsgqvhkvuby/the%20bike.jpg?dl=1)
Now its time to fix those tappets. Called Hamlin Cycles in Bethel, CT who agreed to take on the recall work. Brought the bike to them Tuesday May 19. Took a 2 hour tour of the shop whilst working out the details of my work order. Lovely dealership! Everyone in the shop was very welcoming and accomodating. Even with the shop being filled up to the brim. Left feeling very hopeful that the bike would be ready for prime time in a few months time.
Then, over the din, came a phone call that would spell the end for this bike: Piaggio will not perform recall work for any bike 10 years or older since first purchased. Turns out my bike was initially purchased in June of 2003. Thus the cutoff is June of 2013:( The parts kit can still be purchased from Guzzi for the low price of $1756.55. And then there is the tool kit (although I’m sure some folk on here would be more than happy to lend them out:)
Talked with Hamlin Cycles today about how to proceed with Piaggio. We are going to try and acquire just the parts kit for free, that in a few years time will just sit and rot in there parts warehouse. I can understand not wanting to shell out for free service. But not giving away the parts that should have been installed in the motorcycle in the first place, is just plain wrong. Hopefully this line of reasoning is enough to convince Piaggio.
-
Quite a project. Nice work! Best of luck on that recall stuff... they oughta give you the kit, but that's just MHO.
-
^ I agree on the kit. What else are they going to do with it?
Best of luck!
-
You've got more patience than me!
I would have checked the oils, put a new Odessey battery-in and gone for a ride :)
Work-out the details later -life's too short.
Then you would have guess that your uncle parked it because it needed a new clutch and gone from there.
K.I.S.S. comes to mind ;)
Hey Chaos, good to know that you listened to our advices, best of luck with the clutch request with Piaggio :BEER:
-
And I thought I was going to get trolled considering I did the work before I checked into the recall. Thanks for all the support y'all!
I'll be calling MPH Cycles on Tuesday. Rather get a cheap kit now while it's available then wait for Piaggio to change their tune along with all the aggravation that route will entail.
Have fun riding this Memorial Day!
-
Called MPH Cycles today. Got myself a hydro kit!!! $125 plus shipping ;-T Huge thanks to everyone for the lead. And an even bigger thanks to MPH Cycles. :bow
Anyone looking for one cheap, better give MPH a call. There is quite literally a few!
Called Hamilin Cycles to revise the work order. They are going to install the u-joint and fit some new tires. Should be ready for pickup on Saturday.
Now time to borrow some install tools, research the procedure, acquire extras like a revised oil pump from MG Cycle and raise the Phoenix from the ashes ~;
-
That's great news. It is too nice a bike to die.
-
With the parts kit in hand, I went about procuring the tool kit and installation instructions. MPH came through again by taking the time to trawl through the computer for the installation instructions.
Mighty big thank you to brlawson for loaning me the cam recall tool kit! :bow:
While waiting for the tools, I went about mucking with the front end.
* Tapped the fork legs for drain screws as per Guzziology. Used clutch pushrod o-rings to create a nice seal. Going to get some sealing washers at the next change as the o-rings like to squish out when you tighten the screws down. Worry they might come loose. Will be watching.
* Replaced the fork seals
* Replaced the dust seals
* Installed some K&S Tech fork gaiters meant for a Bonneville. Lookin fresh!
Friday was a tough day at the office: the tool kit came! Hard to focus when all you want to do is wrench. Alas I had to wait until Sunday to start the parts kit install. Progress was slow today though. Constant interruptions all throughout the day :thewife: Managed to get to the step where you remove the timing case bolt.
Which brings up a question. The instructions tell you to clean the sump. With a warning not to reinstall the sump. They then have you strip things to get into the timing chest. Meaning the timing chest bolt has to be removed. From what I can tell the timing chest bolt is what supports the crankcase up front. Without supporting the crankcase you would be putting lots of strain on the bell housing. Further confounding are the images. Image of timing chest bolt removal shows a sump attached to the crankcase supported by a jack. Later on when they have you clean the crankcase, there is no jack under the crankcase and you can't really tell if the timing chest bolt is installed. Don't believe the timing chest bolt is installed as a later instruction has you spraying into the crankcase from the cam shaft opening. So, can you remove the timing chest bolt without the crankcase being supported?
-
Yup, no issue at all with taking out the timing cheat bolt.
Pete
-
Thanks Pete! No issues without the sump support.
Now if only I had been paying more attention to the instructions I wouldn't have missed the tooling needs for crankshaft nut removal. Took a day off, made good progress, got to the crankshaft nut, then realized 'Oh... there is ~4in. of crankshaft in the way'. Tried to find a 1/2" or 3/4" drive 32mm extra deep socket or a 3/4" drive regular, deep wall or extra deep wall locally, but no luck. I could get a 3/4" 32mm deep wall socket through Snap-On, but wasn't about to pay $52 for a sacrificial socket, as flats would have to be ground into the socket. Through some forum trawling I found that others have used a Sunex 232mxd (1/2" drive 32mm extra deep impact socket), so I placed an order online. In the mean time, I picked up a Harbor Freight 1/2" drive 32mm for $5 with the hopes that I could bore the 1/2" to 3/4" before the online ordered socket arrived. I did manage to bore a hole through the socket, but not before the socket arrived in the mail :rolleyes: Good learning experience though. Die grinders FTW! Anyways, once I had the extra deep socket, crankshaft nut removal was a press of the rattle gun away.
Finished the disassembly and cleaning phase of the CAM recall this weekend. Worst fear did not come true:) CAM deterioration had only just started. All 4 lobes display smooth even wear in the same pattern. Two lobes have random pitting. With the other two lobes looking like the random pitting is about to start. Front and rear bearing surfaces on the CAM shaft and crankcase are in great shape. Engine does not have to be scraped!!!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/irs11mo1jm4gnfj/pre%20cam%20recall%201.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gg71mmfukeh9pm/pre%20cam%20recall%202.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1jb10zij99ge2yp/pre%20cam%20recall%203.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fbnkbtcmv3y7d4/pre%20cam%20recall%204.jpg?dl=1)
Going to be re-assembling when I have the energy after work this week. Fingers crossed for this weekend, but 2 friends with birthdays is calling for a lot of drankin :boozing:
-
Further inspection of the timing chain now has me waiting for a new chain. And I just ordered some random things from MGCycle :rolleyes: Found maximum of 7mm of deflection in the chain. Tensioner shoe also had some good sized grooves.
Something has been bugging me about the sump: the amount of sludge I found. It was about an 1/8 of an inch thick. No pics unfortunately. Feel that's a lot for a bike with 25k. Talked shop with a gear headed co-worker. His recommendation, based on the fact that 2 small spots of carbon build-up could be seen on the base of the pistons when lookin up through the crankcase, is to take the headers off, clean the top of the piston, clean the exposed part of the valves, header sealing surfaces and replace with a new gasket. Figure why not. Gives me a chance to replace the stud o-rings (at least 8 of em), pick out the rusted exhaust port gaskets without getting crude into the cylinder and venture into another area of the bike. Do you think its worth removing the headers for a cleaning and inspection?
-
If you mean the heads , probably can't hurt . Then you will be much more comfortable with the mechanical condition of the engine . A thin film of carbon is beneficial however .
Dusty
-
What does the sludge look like?
People add stuff to oil or use the wrong spec oil in guzzis all the time. One of the side effects is stuff coming out of solution and settling to the bottom of the sump. Moly additives come to mind as a typical, but certainly not exclusive example. We use it in some gearboxes. A little dab might be a good thing, but a bigger dab isn't always a better thing. Only so much moly can be held in suspension. Any more and it migrates to the bottom where it lives and builds up over years of adding it.
So you might be looking at a non-issue. If it's a concern, you can have it analyzed (I never have) to find out exactly what it is.
I don't get the connection between the sump sludge and what your friend is recommending (although I have no objection to doing those things).
-
Sludge is deep dark black in color. Very thick and sticky. I wasn't concerned until my colleague said something. Colleagues thoughts were lots of sludge at low mileages = lots of carbon buildup up top, this being predicated on the carbon build-up on the underside of the piston (side facing into the crankcase). Seeing as he has many more years experience wrenching than I, felt it prudent to consider his opinion. So I take it carbon produced above the piston has no way to traverse down into the sump?
-
Carbon blows by the rings all the time. It's one of the things that turns oil black. But it's not the only thing. If oyu smear it on glass what color is it? If you look through the smear can you see any chunks or shiny bits?
-
Unfortunately the oil sump sludge was washed away by mineral spirits long before my post about the sludge. I'll have to do some smearing next time.
Think I am going to play things like this: Kroil the rusted out header gaskets, wait 24 hours, see if they can be pried free without a crumbly metal mess. If they can't I'll be relegated to taking the heads off. If they do come free, laziness wins. I want to ride!!!! I have too many other things to do to add something else into the mix like installing the rear wheel spacer the correct way as the dealer failed to. I'll take the heads off when I have the time to strip the engine to vapor blast the bubbly paint off the cases.
-
Has anyone else had trouble getting the oil pump key into the improved oil pump that MGCycle is selling (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_162&products_id=1985)? Any solutions? Oil pump shaft and sprocket key ways appear to be inline, but the shaft threads have the key raised above the keyway entrance. Going to keep piddling.
-
Almost done!!! Finished up putting on the new valve springs, caps and shims. Now I'm working on setting the rocker arm valve clearance. But I've run into an issue. I have the LH cylinder at TDC. I am adjusting the exhaust valve clearance. However with the rocker arm adjusting screw all the way out I only have 0.1mm clearance. What could be the issue?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0h0bhwv3sh0qtej/bad%20valve%20clearance.jpg?dl=1)
-
Wrong TDC is my guess.
-
spin it another 360
-
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give it another go this evening.
-
This is hydraulic lifter, right?
You can't adjust it that way.
-
This is hydraulic lifter, right?
You can't adjust it that way.
Wayne, I am performing the set once and forget it valve adjustment stated in the CAM recall parts kit installation instructions. I am to set valve clearance to 0.5mm with the dummy lifter installed. Lock the adjuster. Then shear the top of the adjuster screw off.
Given that, do you feel wrong (on exhaust stroke) TDC is the culprit?
-
Found TDC for the LH side again. Did so by taking out the dummy lifter. Putting the exhaust pushrod back in. Putting the intake pushrod back in. Held my fingers on the pushrods whilst I turned the engine over via the alternator nut. Felt for when the intake valve opened then closed. Then I placed a straw into the cylinder via the spark plug hole. Waited till the straw was stuck in the chamber. Checked the bell housing inspection port. S lined up in the window. Took the exhaust pushrod out, put the dummy lifter in, put the exhaust pushrod back in, pushed the pushrod down so that I knew the lifter bucket was up against the cam shaft, but still no luck getting 0.5mm valve clearance. Most I can squeeze out is 0.1mm. Tried a little before TDC. Tried a little after TDC. Can never get 0.5mm of clearance.
In the depths of despair last night, I came up with a hypothesis. I surmise that 0.5mm is misprinted in the two CAM recall parts kit install instructions that I have. That the value is actually 0.05mm. I can easily get 0.05mm clearance with the dummy lifter that measures 32mm in height. Found evidence to support my hypothesis here:
I did not use a special adjuster tool when I did my cam swap. I drained the lifters and set for 0.050mm with a feeler gauge. If you're not interested in making flat-rate on the job there's no reason why a practiced hand can't do it old-school.
Note that a dummy lifter was not used. However this is a non-point.
I received a couple of new lifters today via mail. When I compress them one measures 31.95mm the other measures 32.55mm.
Dummy lifter and a drained lifter have the same height of 32mm. On the other hand, the post has multiple mentions of 0.5mm for valve clearance. So I can't be certain of the value in rodekyll's post. I also doubt that both the CAM recall parts kit install instructions I have are wrong. One came with the tool kit, that does not mention cleaning the oil pump. The other is a PDF of a revised version that covers cleaning the oil pump.
I'll keep at it. Probably something I am overlooking.
-
Yes, I performed the measurements as stated in the CAM recall parts kit install instructions using all the special tools from the tool kit. I also double checked yesterday as I thought that may have something to do with things. I measured from the bottom of the upper spring cap to the top of the lower spring cap. All measurements were between the work shop manuals values of 35.750 to 36mm.