Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MotoGoosy on February 16, 2015, 11:50:15 PM
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Got an '02 EV11, love the style, riding position, sound, but the vibration is horrendous, compared to my other bikes. Feels like a John Deere single-cylinder tractor. Not bad on level ground or going downhill, but going uphill or over 3,000 rpm feels like it's coming apart. You too?
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Nope , something is wrong with that piece . TBs out of sync probably .
Dusty
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There's something out of adjustment. The EV's are very smooth for a twin. Mine is smooth enough that the mirrors are clear at almost any speed. No vibration drama at all.
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You appear to have a problem, others will chime in with various things to check. I have an 02 Cal SS with the same engine, basically same bike, smooth as silk, and smoother the higher it revs. I would start with a good tune and TPS setup. Check engine mounting bolts and see if the header is rubbing on the front mounting bolts or frame
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TBs?
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TBs?
Throttle bodies.
kjf
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TBs?
Throttle bodies . Your description of the engine vibrating under load indicates one cylinder is "leading" the other .
Dusty
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That's what it feels like. At idle, it's the opposite of most bikes, the engine sits still and the bike shakes.
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That's what it feels like. At idle, it's the opposite of most bikes, the engine sits still and the bike shakes.
:D :D :D :D
They all feel that way at idle , kind of an octopus delusion ;D Seriously , what other types of bike ;Ds do you own ? Guzzies and flat twin beemers tend to shake at low RPMs due to the crankshaft design induced rocking couple . As Rodekyll stated , should smooth out as the engine speed increases . Sounds like the bike needs a good tune up .
Dusty
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:D :D :D :D
They all feel that way at idle , kind of an octopus delusion ;D Seriously , what other types of bike ;Ds do you own ? Guzzies and flat twin beemers tend to shake at low RPMs due to the crankshaft design induced rocking couple . As Rodekyll father guzzi obrian stated , should smooth out as the engine speed increases . Sounds like the bike needs a good tune up .
Dusty
But I'll agree with him. :) I get a little buzz at about 4800 for about 75 rpm either way. It might be where the general bike harmonics collide rather than the engine. I'm only doing 4800 on my way to some other revs though, so it doesn't really matter.
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Harley 883, Kawasaki 540 and Mean Streak 1600.
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No buzz, just shudder at all speeds. Maybe I'm only running on one cylinder.
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David, so I am a bit clairvoyant ;D
Hmm , 3 other bikes that shake a bit , yeah , something is wrong with the EV .
Dusty
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I'll tell you what -- you've got all those other bikes -- what do you need with a paint mixer with a major malfunction? Send it to me and I'll give it a proper burial. No charge, cuz you seem like a nice guy.
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No doubt David , you are all heart :D
Dusty
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Well, with just 9,000 miles on it, I'm not ready to dump it yet, but it sure is a relief to ride the other bikes after riding this one.
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What is your location ?
Dusty
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id agree with the others, tps and a good going over for loose engine mounting etc. more than likely nothing wrong with the uj, but id pull the swingarm and check anyway, no doubt the drive splines have never been greased so its all a good thing to do
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In case you don't know... These motors are not like a Harley and you don't want to lug the motor, it needs to be rev'd.. at speed choose a gear that keeps the revs above about 4,000..
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In case you don't know... These motors are not like a Harley and you don't want to lug the motor, it needs to be rev'd.. at speed choose a gear that keeps the revs above about 4,000..
That may be the problem for a new to Guzzi owner.
Dean
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REALLY good point about keeping the revs up, otherwise lugging the motor is going to make it feel like crap.
And there is going to be some vibration in the normal rev range (3-4k is a good place to keep this motor), but even then it shouldn't be as bad as an 883 (well, assuming it's a solidmount, if it's a rubbermount compare by putting your knee against the air cleaner at speed, it should be less than that).
If there is a lot of vibration in the proper range, then as others have mentioned the first place to look is at throttle body balance...get them on a set of carb balance sticks and see the vacuum differential between the two. That will tell you right away if it needs to be synchronized.
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Put a young hottie on the pillion and let her evaluate the quailty of the vibraton.
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Viberider.
Sounds like one cylinder operation to me. BTDT.
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San Diego
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Haven't ever taken it to 4,000. Runs smoothest at 2300 on a flat surface. Geez, it redlines at 7.
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The hard-mounted 883 is infinitely smoother.
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I think we have found our problem!
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Haven't ever taken it to 4,000. Runs smoothest at 2300 on a flat surface. Geez, it redlines at 7.
Ride it like you stole it.
Dean
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The hard-mounted 883 is infinitely smoother.
Maybe one of the other S.D. area members can help out , no doubt something is amiss .
Dusty
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Defiantly keep the revs up. Mine starts to smooth out at 3K and 3.5-4K seem to be the sweet spot for steady cruising speed.
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Years ago, when I got my first Guzzi ( 01 Rosso Mandello) I also thought something was wrong due to the vibration, then an experienced Guzzisti gave me some advice..." Never run a Guzzi below 3K RPMs" best advice I ever got! well you can run a "hydro" motor at 2500-2800, but only under verylight load, while "floating along" someone also told me " take your time, and dont lug it, shift it positively and slowly, it will teach you how to ride it" also sage advice. Guzzis are "different" , but in a good way...Thats "The Magic" in these wonderful, but slightly quirky bikes.If after riding it in the proper rev range, you still have too much vibes, do the tune up stuff/tb synch mentioned .
Rick.
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Haven't ever taken it to 4,000. Runs smoothest at 2300 on a flat surface. Geez, it redlines at 7.
trade in for a Prius.
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IIRC it redlines at 8100
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For sure you need the revs much higher.
The secret to understanding the TPS & throttle body balance is understanding how the linkage works, it's well hidden on the EV (I assume the 2002 is similar to my 98).
I think you would know if it's only running on one, the engine is gutless when that happens.
If it's missing on one cylinder check the spark leads, my EV had crappy carbon filled type, one was arcing.
From the coil end to the cap each lead should read ~ 5k Ohms (due to the resistor in cap)
I sent you an e-mail with some info.
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Yeah, got it Roy. Thanks a bunch. Think I'll take it over to the dealer for a carb-sync. Outta my league. Went out for a ride this morning to try higher revs. Feels like a Minneapolis Moline butane tractor. The bike's definitely got a pulse!!
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don't lug the engine. keep it at >4k on the highway.
If it still does it, sync the FI and tune up.
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Haven't ever taken it to 4,000. Runs smoothest at 2300 on a flat surface. Geez, it redlines at 7.
That's lugging it, should be kept above 3k generally . . .
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TBs?
Houston? I think we have a problem.. ;D
Haven't ever taken it to 4,000. Runs smoothest at 2300 on a flat surface. Geez, it redlines at 7.
Houston?? Did you pack any duct tape in the lunar module?? ;D :BEER:
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Took the beast over to my favorite local bike shop for Tappet adjustment and TB synching. If that doesn't make a world of difference, I'm going to dump it.
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Make sure the problem isn't the bike rather than the way you ride it.
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Took the beast over to my favorite local bike shop for Tappet adjustment and TB synching. If that doesn't make a world of difference, I'm going to dump it.
Get yourself a Harley if you want to lug around town.
Dean
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My Bassa rarely sees 4th gear and 5th only when going 80 mph+. 4,000 rpms in 3rd is where it's happy. It's not like an Hon/Yama when you can "flick it" into 5th and lug it around.
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Haven't ever taken it to 4,000. Runs smoothest at 2300 on a flat surface. Geez, it redlines at 7.
You should have it over 4000 RPM every time you ride it. It won't pull without lugging at 2300 RPM; you'll ruin the motor running it like that.
You're on the right track getting the bike serviced. But that won't change the basic characteristics of the motor. If your bike needs to run at 2800 RPM to be satisfying, you'll need a different bike!
Good luck!
Lannis
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I'm in murrieta ca, just an hour north of San Diego. My Jackal is no peach. But it runs good. We can try and get together to compare if you want. My bike is good above 3500. Below 3k it shakes a bit. Are you free during the weekdays? Tuesday or weds?
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The hard-mounted 883 is infinitely smoother.
Bwahahahaha! What are the odds that this is the natural order of these two bikes? If anything, this should tell you that something is wrong with your particular EV. I suggest you try someone else's, to see what you are missing.
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Get yourself a Harley if you want to lug around town.
Dean
+1
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Haven't ever taken it to 4,000. Runs smoothest at 2300 on a flat surface. Geez, it redlines at 7.
You really should be riding in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range.
Sure light duty around town 3000 to 4000 but really shouldn't ride under 3500.
The Moto Guzzi engine really does have different tuning and character from a Harley engine. Shifting the Harley in the 2000 to 3000 range is quite normal. Low rpm use on the Guzzi is bad for the engine and you're missing out on its true performance potential.
Riding a short stroke Italian V twin at low rpm is a common mistake made by people transitioning from Harley Davidson.
The most vivid memory I have of some one making this transition was when I sold a new 1998 Ducati 900 Supersport to a guy coming off of a Harley Sportster 1200 S. After about a week or two of ownership he called to let me know how disappointed he was in the bike's performance, especially in 6th gear at 50 miles per hour!
When I told him that he should be riding the motorcycle at 4000 or greater and 50 miles per hour should never see 6th gear he was sort of dumbfounded. Long story short he only owned the bike a short time and went back to a motorcycle he could ride comfortably at low rpm.
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Fwiw, Sportster motors and Cali motors aren't as different in operating range as either is from the Harley Big Twin.
You really should be running a Sportster motor above 3k too.
My Jackal pulled fine from 3k and I generally kept it in the 3-4k range, running up to 5-6k at times.
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I'd definitely be up for that. Just want to know if my bike is normal for Guzzi's. Retired, almost always available. Meet in Escondido?
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Got an 883 with 900 miles on it and I do a lot of putzing around town on it.
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Put a young hottie on the pillion and let her evaluate the quailty of the vibraton.
Typical old dude loser comment.
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Heck, my EV was pretty smooth at 2500, ran fine under 4K. There was no need to wind it up all the time.
If the 883 is smoother, the EV has a problem.
Hey, too bad everybody has to be so harsh these days.
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Yes, the hugger is muuuuch smoother. And not rubber-mounted either.
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Yes, the hugger is muuuuch smoother. And not rubber-mounted either.
Seriously, something is very wrong then.
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I'LL pm you. We can figure something out.
Pm didn't work, so I shot you an email. Let me know...
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Ahem: Motorcycle Daily test rider says:
"After adjusting the suspension to our liking (we made a huge change in the fork settings, compared to the prior tester — ending up with 7 clicks out on the right fork, the rebound damping adjustment, and 4 clicks out on the left fork, the compression damping adjustment) the EV Touring did handle well — changing direction quickly (partly, thanks to those narrow tires), and felt stable up to about 100 mph. Although the engine seemed to vibrate more than the last air-cooled Moto Guzzi I rode (in 1999), vibration is generally not a problem for the rider. The seat keeps vibration off your butt, and the gel-mounted floorboards keep the vibration from bothering your feet. The vibration did occasionally become an annoyance at the handlebar grips when cruising in fifth gear on the freeway above 80 mph, or so.
That vibration at higher rpm levels reflects the fact that this particular Guzzi likes to be short-shifted, rather than revved. The machine makes good, pleasing torque down low, and Moto Guzzi seems to have their stock fuel injection settings fairly well sorted out (that has not always been the case). Acceleration is strong, but nothing to write home about if you are used to riding sport bikes, or even powerful sport tourers. My guess is the bike would turn mid-13s in the quarter mile. "
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Hmm , can't even remember how bad the last single cylinder BSA I rode in 2000 vibrated :D Get this thing tuned , while this motor will probably run fine at 2500 RPMs , it should rev smoothly to 7000 RPMs .
Dusty
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Kinda makes you wonder which of the NOT air-cooled Guzzis he's ridden since 1999.
I don't put much stock in m/c rag writers. They generally know nothing about the bikes they test, won't read the poop sheets, and couldn't tell if one was running right or not. Their job is to wring 800 words out of the thesaurus by press time, and slant it in favor of their advertisers. Sure, compared to a 6-cyl Honda @14krpm, any twin is going to feel buzzy. But it's hardly a fair comparison to make. Much the same as comparing what you're riding now to the one you were on for an hour 16 years ago (and couldn't review accurately back then).
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The seat keeps vibration off your butt, and the gel-mounted floorboards keep the vibration from bothering your feet. The vibration did occasionally become an annoyance at the handlebar grips when cruising in fifth gear on the freeway above 80 mph, or so.
Throttle bodies out of sync.
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Throttle bodies out of sync.
Yep , still good advice ;-T
Dusty
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Crossing my fingers on that. Love the look and feel. Should be outta the shop this week.
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Ahem: Motorcycle Daily test rider says:
"That vibration at higher rpm levels reflects the fact that this particular Guzzi likes to be short-shifted, rather than revved....
Ahem: How can I say this politely? Bullshit!
I have owned an EV for four years; put 25,000 miles on it; it has taken me though most of Florida and a good part of the Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Midwest regions. One thing I can say with confidence is that the author of that article has it exactly backwards.
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I love this bit about vibrations ....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwC4Y4djJuw&feature=player_detailpage#t=1261
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I love this bit about vibrations ....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwC4Y4djJuw&feature=player_detailpage#t=1261
There's a HD&M in that video.
http://home.comcast.net/~pehayes/piemonte/PiemonteTour.html
Dean
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Got it back from the shop today, after tappet adjust, TB sync, and hotter plugs. Runs slightly better, but it's a solid-mount Guzzi. Sweet spot is at 2,300 rpm. Sure wish there were an aftermarket rubber mount retrofit kit. With the engine mounted sideways, the hammering is a way of life with a Guzzi. Wonder if BMW airheads are rubber-mounted.
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If the sweet spot is 2300 RPMs there is still something amiss . AND NO , airheads aren't rubber mounted .
Dusty
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Sure wish there were an aftermarket rubber mount retrofit kit.
L O L :bike
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Yeah, in contrast, my Kawa 1600 (rubber mount) is so smooth, it's almost boring. I need meds.
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Yeah, in contrast, my Kawa 1600 (rubber mount) is so smooth, it's almost boring. I need meds.
Oh , lots of us need meds ... ;D Seriously , there should be a broad sweet spot with any decent 2 valve Guzzi . 2300 RPMs to around 5500 RPMs . At least everyone in my experience has been sweet , and that is a few .
Dusty
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On most big blocks the really sweet spot is around 4200. :beat_horse
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Goosy, I think you should get a Convert..
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On most big blocks the really sweet spot is around 4200. :beat_horse
Yep , like a Haagen Daz malt ;D
Dusty
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/orgasms%20guzzi%20vib_zpstzhfftxr.jpg)
:D
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Yeah, sweet spot should be from 3k on up. It's smooth until the bike bounces off the limiter, not that I do that.... often.
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If the sweet spot is 2300 RPMs there is still something amiss .
Dusty
:+1
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don't lug a Guzzi.
4k rpm + on the hi way.
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I'd have to stay in 4th gear to keep it at 4k at 70.
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I'd have to stay in 4th gear to keep it at 4k at 70.
Yeah , so ?
Dusty
Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .
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Fifth gear is only useful when exceeding 80 mph.
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I'd have to stay in 4th gear to keep it at 4k at 70.
the way to know for sure is to run it up to 4k. try it, you'll understand why EVERYONE here keeps telling you your running the engine too low.
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ITS NOT A HARLEY! Don't ride it like one! If you are running it at 2300 you are riding it like a Harley.. level ground with light throttle 3k minimum highway 4k is fine. Those who say 5th is for 80 and above are looking for spirited throttle response. 4k in 5th will give you 70 mph. Spin the engine.
Did I say DON'T RIDE IT LIKE A HARLEY?
The problem isn't the bike but how it's being ridden.
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ITS NOT A HARLEY! Don't ride it like one! If you are running it at 2300 you are riding it like a Harley.. level ground with light throttle 3k minimum highway 4k is fine. Those who say 5th is for 80 and above are looking for spirited throttle response. 4k in 5th will give you 70 mph. Spin the engine.
Did I say DON'T RIDE IT LIKE A HARLEY?
The problem isn't the bike but how it's being ridden.
+1 Brazilian
The problem is a loose nut behind the handlebars.
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I'd have to stay in 4th gear to keep it at 4k at 70.
You've got five gears, but you don't have to use all of them, all of the time!
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My V11 Café Sport would really buzz the bars and shake the seat when I first acquired it. Only gel gloves worked. With two other big blocks in the shed, I knew it was not normal. The PO had been using a shop that, IMO, thought they knew how to tune up a Guzzi. Following the advice and procedures found in this forum, I set everything accordingly. Night and day difference. The engine will trickle down to 2000 or so in 3rd on flat ground but very very small throttle opening is the only way to keep the shudder and shake bearable. I wanted to test low rpm fueling after the re-map. OK, done with that.
Rule of thumb-Never ride below 3K, 4K is sweetness and at 5K is all day smooth. Never higher than 3rd around town. 4th is good from 45 or so to 70 then 5th. Strolling along at 80 sees 6th and the 5K mark indicates 90 and a bit. You may need to recalibrate your riding style. Or buy a Buick.
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Everybody on the forum has been very patient 'cause they want to help...me too... but..
Do you know what "FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE" means?
mike :-)
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Everybody on the forum has been very patient 'cause they want to help...me too... but..
Do you know what "FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE" means?
mike :-)
Yeah. I was just beginning to think the same thing.
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Something still sounds wrong. I'm assuming the shop also changed the plugs when the bike was in for service. Might be worth doing wires and caps, too, if there is any doubt. Checking the operation with Guzzidiag might not be a bad idea.
No one mentioned U-joint--is the vibration the same at a given rpm no matter what mph you are running?
Rich A
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Got it back from the shop today, after tappet adjust, TB sync, and hotter plugs. Runs slightly better, but it's a solid-mount Guzzi. Sweet spot is at 2,300 rpm. Sure wish there were an aftermarket rubber mount retrofit kit. With the engine mounted sideways, the hammering is a way of life with a Guzzi. Wonder if BMW airheads are rubber-mounted.
Sweet spot is 2,300 RPM.
NO!
I have owned a number of Guzzis. I have ridden a few dozen. One of my rides is a 2004 EV with hydraulic lifters. The torque and power curve on the hydraulic lifter EV means that they actually like being ridden at a lower RPM then most Guzzis. That LOWER RPM, is between 3,000 and 4000. Most normal Guzzis that I have owned or ridden prefer 4,000 or slightly above.
If you think the sweet spot is 2,3000 RPM, the bike is broken OR you aren't riding it right.
If your riding style doesn't run the motor closer to 4,000 RPM, sell it.
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If he keeps riding at 2300 rpm if the UJ isn't bad it soon will be.
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I'm in 4th on the SoCal freeways, if I got past 80, then I'll get into 5th. Shiiiiiite, I've hit an indicated 70 in 2nd gear. But I'm not the best role model.
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I'm in 4th on the SoCal freeways, if I got past 80, then I'll get into 5th. Shiiiiiite, I've hit an indicated 70 in 2nd gear. But I'm not the best role model.
Yeah, that's exactly how I ride mine. Around town, usually second gear up to 55, then occasionally into third. It takes some retraining to learn what the motor / trans likes.
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I'd have to stay in 4th gear to keep it at 4k at 70.
yeah. you don't shift to 5th until you're doing an indicated 80 (which is about real world 70) :beat_horse
I am not sure why this has to be said time and time again. YOU DON'T LUG A GUZZI. I really don't get this. It's a matter of feel, you ride a bike, redline it and learn where the power comes on. It shouldn't take more than a couple of rides to do that regardless of the motorcycle. Saying that 2300 is a sweet spot is just plain silly. Let me repeat: YOU DON'T LUG A GUZZI.
Now if you ridden the bike like everyone here recommends - keeping at 4K+ and you still have a problem, then it needs attention whether engine or drivetrain. There is no way in hell that a solid mount Sportster is as smooth as Guzzi.
I hope this isn't a troll.
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I only have a rough clue about the geography of California, as I tend to think of anything west of the Mississippi River as occasionally interesting, but almost always irrelevant. ;D
That said, is no one out there near enough to the OP to see if what he reports is, as we all suspect, the result of "throttle avoidance" or something else?
While there are times -- even among the most rev-happy here -- when we do loaf along in "the 3's," I think that that the only time I spend n my EV in "the 2's" is passing through on way up or down.
I do wonder if we might be missing something that the OP is trying to convey beyond the conclusion we all seem reasonably to have drawn, i.e., short shifting.
Bill
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I only have a rough clue about the geography of California, as I tend to think of anything west of the Mississippi River as occasionally interesting, but almost always irrelevant. ;D
That said, is no one out there near enough to the OP to see if what he reports is, as we all suspect, the result of "throttle avoidance" or something else?
While there are times -- even among the most rev-happy here -- when we do loaf along in "the 3's," I think that that the only time I spend n my EV in "the 2's" is passing through on way up or down.
I do wonder if we might be missing something that the OP is trying to convey beyond the conclusion we all seem reasonably to have drawn, i.e., short shifting.
Bill
We're in email contact. Hopefully this upcoming week I can try and get out early and maybe I can meet him and see what's up.
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Do you know what "FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE" means?
More like shouting into the wind....
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More like shouting into the wind....
Yes. Probably 40 posts from a dozen experienced Guzzi riders have said "Don't run it at those RPMS, it's not designed for it" and the message isn't getting through.
That's OK. All we can do is testify to what we know. We can't make someone like it or believe it or say "Thanks, I'll try running it like that."
It may be that MotoHarley is where true happiness is, not MotoGoosey .... !
Lannis
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"Bored"? ;D OK , one of two things is happening here , either the guy is pulling our legs , or there really is something wrong with the bike . Either way , Semper Guzzi will hopefully give us a first hand report in the next few days and we can put this thing to bed .
Dusty
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OK,
I defer to the man from Oklahomie, part time statesman and sometime sub-mariner, its the sensible thing to do.
:-)
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Doesn't it depend somewhat on the model? This is an EV11. It's not a sport bike. The only bike I have that does 4k on the freeway is my Versys.
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Doesn't it depend somewhat on the model? This is an EV11. It's not a sport bike. The only bike I have that does 4k on the freeway is my Versys.
Nope . A question , how many folks need to tell you that this engine likes to rev a bit before it sinks in ?
Dusty
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Doesn't it depend somewhat on the model? This is an EV11. It's not a sport bike. The only bike I have that does 4k on the freeway is my Versys.
No! No! Good Lord, NO!!
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Nope . A question , how many folks need to tell you that this engine likes to rev a bit before it sinks in ?
Dusty
Yes, it does depend on the model. I can give my Convert all the gas in the tank and it will still only do the revs that make it happy. I reported in another topic that I ran out to the end of the road and back at 50mph and 2200rpm. The bike can choose whatever engine speed it wants for a given road speed, and that's where it wanted to be. The only way I could increase the revs is by increasing road speed.
Who wants to tell my bike it can't do that?
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Yes, it does depend on the model. I can give my Convert all the gas in the tank and it will still only do the revs that make it happy. I reported in another topic that I ran out to the end of the road and back at 50mph and 2200rpm. The bike can choose whatever engine speed it wants for a given road speed, and that's where it wanted to be. The only way I could increase the revs is by increasing road speed.
Who wants to tell my bike it can't do that?
OH HELL , yeah true , and I don't always run mine at 4K , but it should still be smooth at that engine speed . Now you get to explain what a 'Vert is to the OP ;D
Dusty
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Doesn't it depend somewhat on the model? This is an EV11. It's not a sport bike. The only bike I have that does 4k on the freeway is my Versys.
Think of percentages and redline. A big twin hd is tapped out at 5000 so cruising at 2500 is roughly 50 percent. The Guzzi redlined at 8000 cruising at 4000 is also about 50 percent. The EV has surprised many riders of other brands for it's willingness to boogie and handle decently while doing so. My Mille GT was the base model big block when new but it runs with the rest of the pack on sundays. Go ahead, give it some stick.
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The question is whether the Guzzi Big Block is a much lower-revving engine in the V11 California application as opposed to, say, the V11 LeMans application.
THE ANSWER IS: NO!
Convert is an odd duck and the exception to the rule. Citing it is only muddying the waters.
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I reported in another topic that I ran out to the end of the road and back at 50mph and 2200rpm.
But you weren't wishing it was a rubber mounted engine.
Something fishy going on.
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Short stroke (compared to bore) higher rev, long stroke lower rev. Generalization, but it fits.
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Doesn't it depend somewhat on the model? This is an EV11. It's not a sport bike. The only bike I have that does 4k on the freeway is my Versys.
NEVER LUG A GUZZI!
Keep the revs over 4k on the highway. You should've figured that out when you first rode it. If it still vibrates after you ride the right way, then you have a problem.
I have an EV. :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse
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NEVER LUG A GUZZI!
Keep the revs over 4k on the highway. You should've figured that out when you first rode it. If it still vibrates after you ride the right way, then you have a problem.
I have an EV. :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse
Me thinks the OP may be winding us up a bit :o :D
Dusty
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Dusty- the "T- word" is being held back. I did modify my last post to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
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Dusty- the "T- word" is being held back. I did modify my last post to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
He is probably just being a bit ornery :D
Dusty
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Bottom line is that I like the bike, but compared to my other rides, it's a tractor. The higher the revs, the more the vibration. Maybe the rest of you are just used to it.
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Bottom line is that I like the bike, but compared to my other rides, it's a tractor. The higher the revs, the more the vibration. Maybe the rest of you are just used to it.
I'm out, you're full of it.
I LOVE MY SPORTSTER. But you claim to have a solidmount 883, but call a Tonti Cali a tractor?
No one is that dense. You're just trying to rile people.
You have a Versys, but can't figure out that a Guzzi should spin higher than a Harley Big Twin?
Granted I've only put ~100 miles on a Versus, but I didn't need an instruction manual how to ride it anymore than I did my Jackal Cali (that I figured out the first run through the gears).
I'm very skeptical...
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Nothing to "Figure out" Kev. Statement of fact. The Guzzi hammers much more than the Harley. Revs don't make much difference.
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Bottom line is that I like the bike, but compared to my other rides, it's a tractor. The higher the revs, the more the vibration. Maybe the rest of you are just used to it.
Nope. Here is either something out of whack with the bike or you're trolling.
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Statement of fact. The Guzzi hammers much more than the Harley. Revs don't make much difference.
Fact: If this is so, there is something wrong with your bike... TB's out-of-sync; loose motor mounts; weak spark ... something. Facts are stubborn things.
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Nothing to "Figure out" Kev. Statement of fact. The Guzzi hammers much more than the Harley. Revs don't make much difference.
Dude I've owned 5 Sportsters and ridden a ton more (friend's and press bikes).
I've seen parts fall off Sportys from vibration.
I've lost feeling in hands and feet on long rides.
Hell I put almost 40k miles on my first solidmount sporty in the 2.5 years I held onto it.
Trust me when I say that UNLESS SOMETHING IS MECHANICALLY WRONG, the Cali should be dramatically smoother.
But also trust me when I say you should be running it at about 1000 rpm higher too. Running it as low as you claim should cause bucking and shuddering from lugging the motor.
If you're sincere, hook up with Semper-Guzzi and swap bikes, and see what's up.
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Statement of fact. The Guzzi hammers much more than the Harley. Revs don't make much difference.
Wrong. The bike is broken, or you are trolling.
:beat_horse
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Harley 883, Kawasaki 540 and Mean Streak 1600.
Why did you include a Kawasaki 540 in your list of motorcycles?
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Wrong. The bike is broken, or you are trolling.
:beat_horse
You can lead a horse to water.... ;D
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Wrong. The bike is broken, or you are trolling.
:beat_horse
Agree
Rich A
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You can lead a horse to water.... ;D
Don't leave us hanging Chuckie ;D I'm waiting on some kind of independent verification from Semper Guzzi . There may be something wrong with this bike .
Dusty ;D
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We will figure out a time to get together.
Hey, just a question, but weren't there some Hydro motors in 2002? If so, can you tell by looking at Vin if it is one? I know there is the Valvole Idrauliche sticker, but incase that isn't there.
If it's a hydro, and the recall isn't done, could it possible be the issue?
My hydro aluminum was Hella smooth no matter the RPM.
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If it's a 2002 USA model, it's solid lifter.
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Yes, it's a solid lifter. Adjusting the tappets cut down the noise quite a bit. They were way off.
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The bike's not broken and I'm not trolling. It's a Moto Guzzi, not a Suzuki. Heavy vibration is a noted characteristic of Moto Guzzis.
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The bike's not broken and I'm not trolling. It's a Moto Guzzi, not a Suzuki. Heavy vibration is a noted characteristic of Moto Guzzis.
I have a 2004 EV and it vibrates, but not as much as my Sportster did. What year was your Harley made?
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The bike's not broken and I'm not trolling. It's a Moto Guzzi, not a Suzuki. Heavy vibration is a noted characteristic of Moto Guzzis.
I've ridden a number of Suzuki's (4cyl) that vibrated more. Granted it was more of a high pitched buzzy vibration, but still. The GS 550E I started out on was one. The press Bandit I spent a week on in CA and AZ many years later was another.
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I have a 2004 EV and it vibrates, but not as much as my Sportster did. What year was your Harley made?
He said solidmount, I THINK it was 02 or 03 IIRC.
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The bike's not broken and I'm not trolling. It's a Moto Guzzi, not a Suzuki. Heavy vibration is a noted characteristic of Moto Guzzis.
Where in the world did you read or hear that . 90 degree V twins have good primary and secondary balance . The heaviest vibration occurs at low RPM because of the crankshaft induced rocking couple .
Dusty
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Heavy vibration is a noted characteristic of Moto Guzzis.
Oh fer fuckssake!
I give up. You obviously know better than everyone else on this subject.
::)
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I will beblunt.
To the OP:if you are knowledgeable on Guzzis, tell us what is wrong with it.
By saying heavy vibration is a Guzzi trait you prove otherwise.
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This is a really strange thread . Apparently the OP has taken an extremely convoluted path , all to tell us that all Moto Guzzis are vibratory beasts and must be short shifted . Interesting ::)
Dusty
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He said solidmount, I THINK it was 02 or 03 IIRC.
I didn't see where he stated the year, so I was playing a hunch that it might be a 2004 or newer. I can see how he might be disappointed in a poor running Guzzi, especially if his 883 is rubber mounted His other reference is a Kawasaki Mean Streak, which has a counter balancer and a lot of weight to dampen the vibes.
I'm still curious as to how a Kawasaki 540 got onto his list. :D
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Vibr8r,
Don't know if I was guessing/assuming such a late model solidmount, but I knew he wasn't talking rubbermount from:
The hard-mounted 883 is infinitely smoother.
Got an 883 with 900 miles on it and I do a lot of putzing around town on it.
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Vibr8r,
Don't know if I was guessing/assuming such a late model solidmount, but I knew he wasn't talking rubbermount from:
Okay, I found the Kawasaki 540, aka "Mule", also has a counter balancer, so that's 2 out of 3 in his stable that should be fairly smooth.
I had a 1994 Sportster 1200 and commuted on it regularly (like the OP, putzing around town). As long as I kept the revs down below 4,000, the vibration was not intrusive. The 883's supposedly vibrated even less. On the highway without a windshield, let's just say that your post about your hands falling asleep brought back memories. ;D
It's good that MotoGoosy has an extra bike to ride while he sorts out his EV.
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Where in the world did you read or hear that . 90 degree V twins have good primary and secondary balance . The heaviest vibration occurs at low RPM because of the crankshaft induced rocking couple .
Dusty
Dusty,
I don't think its vibration caused by the 90 degree configuration, which as you point out is pretty good. Its the power pulses produced at 90 degree timing. At low RPM with more that a light throttle it can be a bit harsh for lack of a better word. Once the RPM comes up the pulses perceived as much closer together which smooth's things out. That happens at a lower RPM for the 45 degree of HD.
my .02
mike
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Dusty,
I don't think its vibration caused by the 90 degree configuration, which as you point out is pretty good. Its the power pulses produced at 90 degree timing. At low RPM with more that a light throttle it can be a bit harsh for lack of a better word. Once the RPM comes up the pulses perceived as much closer together which smooth's things out. That happens at a lower RPM for the 45 degree of HD.
my .02
mike
Mike , no doubt the 90 degree timing contributes , my reference is to the rocking couple caused by the offset crankpins . At TDC and BDC the crank is twisted about a bit . BMWs do the same thing , but neither engine is noted for for being vibratory . Good point about the 45 degree design , but there is also the fact that piston speed on a narrow angle V is never equal at any point , whereas with a 90 degree V the max velocities match up really well , and of course the 180 degree V keeps the piston speeds equal all of the time .
Geez , did I word that clearly ? Feel free to correct any inconsistencies ;)
Dusty
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The question is whether the Guzzi Big Block is a much lower-revving engine in the V11 California application as opposed to, say, the V11 LeMans application.
THE ANSWER IS: NO!
Convert is an odd duck and the exception to the rule. Citing it is only muddying the waters.
Maybe just the slightest difference between them, like chalk and cheese
Cali 100 torque from 2000 to 7000, actually more at 2500 than 4000 !!!!
From here http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=28424.0
very different opinion from owner of that bike,
(http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq128/JMV2008_photos/California/Dyno2009-2.jpg)
Can't find V11 sheet on web or here, here is 1100Sport, close enough in spirit at least, good torque from 5000 tp 7000, poxy at 4500
http://www.gpperformance.co.uk/small_page.php?function=gallery_viewer&img_id=16
Sorry can't post it, have to click link
Note you are looking for torque not bhp,
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^^^^ Chalk and cheese? Are we looking at the same graphs?
Cal Vin (not the best comparator, but oh well): Torque peaks at 5,400 rpm and hp climbs significantly after 4,000 rpm (with climbing hp and strong torque all the way to redline). That is NOT a slow (or, low) revving engine.
Sport 1100: (not even from the same era as the above bike, but again, oh well): Graph shows nearly identical torque (why three lines?) shifted slightly to the right (higher rpm by about 500). Not much of a difference, and certainly no explanation for what the OP is trying to tell us. (That's putting aside that if the 1100 Sport figures are from a carbed bike, it's not even close to a valid comparison.)
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Mike , no doubt the 90 degree timing contributes , my reference is to the rocking couple caused by the offset crankpins . At TDC and BDC the crank is twisted about a bit . BMWs do the same thing , but neither engine is noted for for being vibratory . Good point about the 45 degree design , but there is also the fact that piston speed on a narrow angle V is never equal at any point , whereas with a 90 degree V the max velocities match up really well , and of course the 180 degree V keeps the piston speeds equal all of the time .
Geez , did I word that clearly ? Feel free to correct any inconsistencies ;)
Dusty
Little confused here. I wasn't aware that any Moto Guzzi crankshaft had offset crankpins? I thought all MG engines had the rod big ends in alignment on a common crankpin?
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'99
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Me too, and the Tupperware buzz was annoying.
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According to my mechanic and my dealer, nothing is wrong with it.
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Mike , no doubt the 90 degree timing contributes , my reference is to the rocking couple caused by the offset crankpins . At TDC and BDC the crank is twisted about a bit . BMWs do the same thing , but neither engine is noted for for being vibratory . Good point about the 45 degree design , but there is also the fact that piston speed on a narrow angle V is never equal at any point , whereas with a 90 degree V the max velocities match up really well , and of course the 180 degree V keeps the piston speeds equal all of the time .
Geez , did I word that clearly ? Feel free to correct any inconsistencies ;)
Dusty
Ha!
The perceived "vibration" on the Guzzi isn't so much a vibration as a pulsing of the power strokes. The same thing happens on the Ducati, but both are quite smooth while cruising in the mid range of RPM as the pulses become closer together in time.
Actually the off set cylinders don't really cause any problems at LOW RPM and only a significant factor at HIGH RPM.
That's why BMW put a balance shaft system that turns at crankshaft speed on the R1200 to mitigate some of the rocking moment at HIGH rpm. (the other two orders are perfect on the 90 degree and 180 degree) You really can't tell much difference between the R1150 and R1200 until you get in the about 6,000 rpm range where its canx about 50% of the rocking.
Piston speeds only a factor in structural matters as well as ware.(in the configurations we are discussing)
Now the 45 degree is a uh....problem engineering wise, now we are talking out of balance. But the sounds are good and has sold a bunch of Hogs!!!!
mike :-)
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Little confused here. I wasn't aware that any Moto Guzzi crankshaft had offset crankpins? I thought all MG engines had the rod big ends in alignment on a common crankpin?
Well , and right you are , didn't explain that very well . Failed to make the distinction between MG and BMW . Sorry . Still some rocking couple induced shaking at low RPMs due to the slightly uneven forces applied to the crank . Geez , wish I had the math to really understand this stuff :D Anyway , my point was more to neither airheads or Guzzi engines being known as shakers , despite the fact that both can jump around at idle .
Dusty
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Little confused here. I wasn't aware that any Moto Guzzi crankshaft had offset crankpins? I thought all MG engines had the rod big ends in alignment on a common crankpin?
I think his nomenclature was a bit off, but meant the offset of the rods. Different from a fork and blade setup like an HD..
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I think his nomenclature was a bit off, but meant the offset of the rods. Different from a fork and blade setup like an HD..
Yeah , that's it ::) ;D
Kirby , you are the engineer , but my understanding is that relative piston speed (between the pair) can have an effect on balance . In a 90 degree configuration , one piston will be at max acceleration while the other is at max piston speed , either traveling up or down , creating a natural balance factor , correct ? Yeah , we won't even talk about 45 degree designs , a Harley riding buddy of mine used to say they ran by magic :o :D
Dusty
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I have staid out of this one do far but maybe he should have had a T-3 LAPD like my first Guzzi that did not have a tach to watch. This was my first Guzzi experience and without a tach I just ran it where it felt the best not by any numbers. That worked for me.
GliderJohn
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^^^^ Chalk and cheese? Are we looking at the same graphs?
Cal Vin (not the best comparator, but oh well): Torque peaks at 5,400 rpm and hp climbs significantly after 4,000 rpm (with climbing hp and strong torque all the way to redline). That is NOT a slow (or, low) revving engine.
Find exact sheets if you can, but opinion varies, some seem to have joy from low revving Guzzi engines, esp Cali with high gearing to make use of it, others gear them down, c'est la vie. To each his own, not a bad thing to short shift and ride the torque, I do but don't care if anyone thrashes theirs through gears, not my concern at all, I'm not paying for fuel .
From the owner of that Cali sheet
Now that all the “teething problems” are solved (and forgotten! ;D ) and with already 5,000Km on the clock (in 7 weeks! :) ) I took my California Vintage for a Dyno check at C.M.B. Verdeyen.
Taking into account that the typical loss of power between shaft and rear wheel is approximately 15% these figures are very close to the factory claimed values (slightly better).
It is amazing indeed! At 2,500rpm it already gives almost 80Nm! 8)
It looks like a Diesel engine! ;)
And another owner
Torque is what moves the world and most motorcycles. I love the low end torque and thanks I have a 07 CalVin and have wondered about the low end torque. Thanks for the posting. ;D
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Yeah , that's it ::) ;D
Kirby , you are the engineer , but my understanding is that relative piston speed (between the pair) can have an effect on balance . In a 90 degree configuration , one piston will be at max acceleration while the other is at max piston speed , either traveling up or down , creating a natural balance factor , correct ? Yeah , we won't even talk about 45 degree designs , a Harley riding buddy of mine used to say they ran by magic :o :D
Dusty
Flywheels and counter weights are good inertial dampers and the moments are small. Like the off set, they are not felt until high rpm and at some point will become a structural problem. It would be difficult to reach that point with normal aspiration. Red lines are typically (almost always) a valve train limit.(except for desmo).
mike :-)
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Well , and right you are , didn't explain that very well . Failed to make the distinction between MG and BMW . Sorry . Still some rocking couple induced shaking at low RPMs due to the slightly uneven forces applied to the crank . Geez , wish I had the math to really understand this stuff :D Anyway , my point was more to neither airheads or Guzzi engines being known as shakers , despite the fact that both can jump around at idle .
Dusty
Yeah, I understood "offset" to mean something like the big end journals offset on the same crank throw. There was a Buick V6 that did that back in the late '60's, if I remember it right. I'm not a bit put out by the vibration from my MG. Worst motorcycle I ever had for aggravating hand numbing vibration was an '85 BMW K100. Nothing was loose. Just the nature of the thing. Was glad to see it go.
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Yeah, I understood "offset" to mean something like the big end journals offset on the same crank throw. There was a Buick V6 that did that back in the late '60's, if I remember it right. I'm not a bit put out by the vibration from my MG. Worst motorcycle I ever had for aggravating hand numbing vibration was an '85 BMW K100. Nothing was loose. Just the nature of the thing. Was glad to see it go.
Yeah , was never really much of a car guy , but wasn't there an "odd" fire and "even" fire version of the same engine , with maybe a different crankshaft configuration . One was smooth , the other not so much , but the shaker made more power ?
Dusty
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Yeah , was never really much of a car guy , but wasn't there an "odd" fire and "even" fire version of the same engine , with maybe a different crankshaft configuration . One was smooth , the other not so much , but the shaker made more power ?
Dusty
My older brother had the Buick Special V6 without the offset crank throws. It did shake noticeably at idle and with all firing. Curious now and will have to look up about the other versions of the engine. Geriatric sleep cycle again, and nothing else to do.
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http://engine.firebirdv6.com/V690.html
There it is Oldbike.
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The Honda V twin and V four engines used 180 or 360 degre cranks depending on aplication.
A perfect example of an odd fire V6 is the 3.9 liter engine used in Dodge trucks. It shook enough it wasnt offered with a manual transmission. Later versions with better engine management were smoother.
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Okay, I found the Kawasaki 540, aka "Mule", also has a counter balancer, so that's 2 out of 3 in his stable that should be fairly smooth.
I had a 1994 Sportster 1200 and commuted on it regularly (like the OP, putzing around town). As long as I kept the revs down below 4,000, the vibration was not intrusive. The 883's supposedly vibrated even less. On the highway without a windshield, let's just say that your post about your hands falling asleep brought back memories. ;D
It's good that MotoGoosy has an extra bike to ride while he sorts out his EV.
Well, not for nothing, but I've been into Sportsters for 20 years, mostly 883 and 1200 EVOs. I've never seen one whose motor doesn't vibrate more than a the Jackal I put 40k miles on.
Even on the rubbermounts, even if you as the rider are mostly isolated from it, you can tell how much the motor is vibrating if you tuck your knee onto the air cleaner.
So to hear that a solidmount hugger 883 vibrates LESS means something is out of whack.
As for whether or not you found your 94 vibration intrusive, the only thing I can comment is that there have always been some owners who claimed Harleys don't vibrate that bad. But to that I'll answer no, that just means your personal level of tolerance for such things is higher than average.
If they didn't vibrate so badly Harley wouldn't have spent millions over the years developing multiple rubbermounted chassis (more than 4 FLHs just in the EVO era, 2 Dynas, the FXRs, the XLs) and added a counterbalancer to the Softails).
It's so bad on solidmounted bikes I've seen light bulbs shaken apart, I've seen pegs or shifters fall off going down the road, I've seen oil tanks crack their welds, I've seen a license plate crack all the way from top-to-bottom.
Hell they vibrated so bad their engineering department developed a standard or measurement utilizing the distance of motion the handlebar grips were deflecting by it.
I would never own another solidmounted Harley EXCEPT as an "around town" bike. Yet, I never gave hopping on my Jackal and riding up or down the east coast the slightest of hesitation.
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Seriously, the guy's winding you up.
I did find the '02 EV to be quite different from our Jackal, a LOT more low-end, and vibes were different too, but not sure why.
But even if his bike is broken, he's winding you up
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Well, not for nothing, but I've been into Sportsters for 20 years, mostly 883 and 1200 EVOs. I've never seen one that doesn't vibrate as more than a the Jackal I put 40k miles on.
Even on the rubbermounts you can tell how much the motor is vibrating if you tuck your knee onto the air cleaner.
So to hear that a solidmount hugger 883 vibrates LESS means something is out of whack.
As for whether or not you found your 94 vibration intrusive, the only thing I can comment is that there have always been some owners who claimed Harleys don't vibrate that bad. But to that I'll answer no, that just means your personal level of tolerance for such things is higher than average.
If they didn't vibrate so badly Harley wouldn't have spent millions over the years developing multiple rubbermounted chassis (more than 4 FLHs just in the EVO era, 2 Dynas, the FXRs, the XLs) and added a counterbalancer to the Softails).
It's so bad on solidmounted bikes I've seen light bulbs shaken apart, I've seen pegs or shifters fall off going down the road, I've seen oil tanks crack their welds, I've seen a license plate crack all the way from top-to-bottom.
Hell they vibrated so bad their engineering department developed a standard or measurement utilizing the distance of motion the handlebar grips were deflecting by it.
I would never own another solidmounted Harley EXCEPT as an "around town" bike. Yet, I never gave hopping on my Jackal and riding up or down the east coast the slightest of hesitation.
One of the reasons that H-D parts are so damn heavy; they have to be "over-engineered" to withstand the vibration.
I had a friend whose Buell self-destructed when it vibrated a screw loose from the intake and ingested it into the engine. Kablooey!
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One of the reasons that H-D parts are so damn heavy; they have to be "over-engineered" to withstand the vibration.
I had a friend whose Buell self-destructed when it vibrated a screw loose from the intake and ingested it into the engine. Kablooey!
I'm acquainted with a few Harley engineers.
There's another reason their parts are so heavy at times. Liability from really dumb lawsuits.
Like the 300# guy who sued them after he decided to use the brake lever on his bike as a step stool to get something on a shelf in his garage and was surprised when it snapped and cut his leg badly.
So they've got some ridiculous standards for components like that.
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Yeah, I understood "offset" to mean something like the big end journals offset on the same crank throw. There was a Buick V6 that did that back in the late '60's, if I remember it right.
And all Chevy 4.3 liter V-6 engines, derived from the 350 V8:
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/Misc/4.3_even_fire_chev_v6_zpssghdugjd.jpg)
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And all Chevy 4.3 liter V-6 engines, derived from the 350 V8:
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/Misc/4.3_even_fire_chev_v6_zpssghdugjd.jpg)
Required for a more even firing order in a 90 degree V 6. GM had a 60 degree that did not require this but it was smaller capacity and GM wanted to use the off the shelf components of the small black V 8 as much as possible.
I believe that they even have a balance shaft now that runs down the center of the block to further smooth it out.
mike
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One of the reasons that H-D parts are so damn heavy; they have to be "over-engineered" to withstand the vibration.
I had a friend whose Buell self-destructed when it vibrated a screw loose from the intake and ingested it into the engine. Kablooey!
I was on a trip with Harley Bob when his Softtail broke the 3/8" mounting bolt for the rear turnsignal. (!!) Now, that's some serious vibration..
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I hope this thread gets blowed up and swept out.
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Already has. I simply stated that my Guzzi vibrates far more than any other bike I've ridden. This is confirmed through many sources, hence the moniker, "A small but loyal following". I just wondered if mine vibrated more than the average Guzzi. Answer from the experts at the dealer and shop is No, it's normal to run like a tractor.
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Locked. This thread has run its course.
:+=copcar