Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: giusto on March 14, 2015, 09:54:47 PM
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Hello Gents..and Ladies,
I am in the need of assistance. It's still cold here in Michigan...+/- 35-40 this morning and I was working on my 2001 Jackel I recently purchased (from a guy in Georgia) with a great new friend...Stewart (found from this site). We were trouble shooting the side stand switch in my chilly garage, Successfully. I have made some minor modifications to the bike and after replacing the fuel tank and rerouting the fuel supply line I still had a little too much length in the line causing it to hang up a bit on the throttle linkage.
So here is the scenario...When I fired up the bike...choke set 3/4 on...it immediately started and revved to medium high rpms for maybe 5 seconds...I hit the kill switch and looked to see the fuel line was hung up on the throttle linkage causing the high revs. I look down at the front of the bike and see a squirt of oil on the garage floor...downer! upon further inspection I cold see what looked like a pressure relief plug in the middle of the pan had popped and the plug and oil were spewed. My questions A)...Could the combination of 1)cold temps 2) throttle linkage induced revs and 3) bike from Georgia (I am guessing he ran 20-50 weight oil) heavy oil have caused the pressure plug to blow? B) How does one remedy the situation? replace the plug? new plug?
This bike ran fine about a month ago when I started in and ran it in my garage. Also it has an aftermarket oil pan with external filter housing.
Thank you very much for all the help!
Giusto
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The pressure relief is inside the sump so it's not that. More likely a popped galley plug. If it is and you have the room for it, you might just thread it and screw in a real pressure sensor.
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Thanks for the response...it seems like the galley plug would go at a designed pressure? Any ideas where to look for the sensor? also what kind of pressure should I expect to see? Galley plugs replaceable?
Thanks again
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Nope, thats the relief valves job.
You probably got the one manufactured 30 seconds before the bell went for the month long Italian summer holiday.
Are the plugs replaceable? Good question yours is the first I've heard of blowing out.
I believe they are an interference press fit and then staked in, fairly critical because if it comes out when at revs you will trash the bottom end in a matter of seconds.
Measure the hole and the plug and see what sizes they are, get a new plug made to suit a few thou bigger than the hole, fit with a thin smear of metallic epoxy, press into the hole, stake it in and let it set for a day or two. Refill sump with oil and start looking for leaks, let it get hot, rev it, check for leaks.
Or just buy a new sump if you dont trust the old one........
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Sorry, about to go to sleep but the thinking on this is wrong, depending on which plug blew out. It may be that the OPRV a had no input at all.
Pete
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Also it has an aftermarket oil pan with external filter housing.
so the plug came from the AM pan? can you show pics? I would start looking for a stock set up if you have the BuB sump with filter.
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Brad you beat me to it by seconds, the key here is the aftermarket pan
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I'm a bit confused-I know nothing new-but I think we are talking about an oil leak from a plug. Something about oil from Georgia in a motorcycle in Michigan. ??? The motorcycle also has an aftermarket oil pan, sort of sounds like something form Harpers. I think we need some more information, or at least I do. Any chance of getting a picture of this "plug". :BEER:
Matt
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Well I should have done as I was told and reviewed my post before posing. ::( :BEER:
Matt
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He's new. He is referring to a stock pan with a Harpers outsider oil filter kit installed.
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That's not a choke, just crack the throttle a bit and start it.
Dean
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The plug is on the front of the "outsider" . I am not sure what it was there for as I am not familiar with the "outsider" and what the oil flow chamber is like. It sure made a mess though. Hope someone here knows. So far the best suggestion sounds like removing the outsider, tapping the hole where the plug was and installing a bolt.
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How about a picture?
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I highly recommend you find out EXACTLY what the hole is all about before you do anything. ::( :BEER:
Matt
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The plug is on the front of the "outsider" . I am not sure what it was there for as I am not familiar with the "outsider" and what the oil flow chamber is like. It sure made a mess though. Hope someone here knows. So far the best suggestion sounds like removing the outsider, tapping the hole where the plug was and installing a bolt.
Please do not try to alter the "outssider". Instead please send it to us for inspection and repair. If a plug came out of it we want to know so we can address the issue.
Tomorrow morning please call either Mike or Curtis at 800 752 9735 to discuss the issue and get it sent back so we can get you back on the road quickly
Mike
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I had a galley plug blow out of a Harpers spacer outsider filter unit. What I did was press plug back in then it went to a machine shop & they welded them all closed, then machined them all flush. No more problems forever.
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Sump or spacer? If it were an Outsider you could just go to using the sump, I suppose, but again pictures required.
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Photos soon to come. This weep hole is not on the sump it is just above it.
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Interesting the plug came out of the front of the Outsider. The pan is intact. I will try to get the pics up for him.
For now I would remove the outsider and just mount the pan with internal filter.
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Photos soon to come. This weep hole is not on the sump it is just above it.
Remove. Time for an oil change anyway.
Send to Harpers per their suggestion.
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(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/MattGuzzi/outsider3_zpsnppdefc8.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/MattGuzzi/outsider2_zpsnwh856hc.jpg)
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Thanks Matteo
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Call Mike or Curtis at Harpers in the morning I bet they will help you. Looks like one of their Outsiders
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Thanks for all the help. I will be contact Mike tomorrow and send it along tout suite.
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That easy fix just send it back . the people who made it need to take a look so they can make it all good .
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Interesting the plug came out of the front of the Outsider. The pan is intact. I will try to get the pics up for him.
For now I would remove the outsider and just mount the pan with internal filter.
DANGER! Do NOT install the lower part of the pan without some kind of spacer, either the Harpers you have now or the factory original. After the factory went to the spacer, they also changed to a taller oil filter. Back in the 850 days the filter was an inch or two shorter, they took advantage of more room to add a larger filter. I have never tried it myself, but I believe there is not enough clearance without the spacer, and the crank will hit the end of the filter.
As to trying to tap the hole and using a bolt, there is danger down this path as well. Depending on what that passage does, getting a bolt in there that is too long could block an internal passage and shut off oil flow to something vital.
As Mike already said, send it back to them and they will take care of it, they are good people and stand behind their products.
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DANGER! Do NOT install the lower part of the pan without some kind of spacer, either the Harpers you have now or the factory original. After the factory went to the spacer, they also changed to a taller oil filter. Back in the 850 days the filter was an inch or two shorter, they took advantage of more room to add a larger filter. I have never tried it myself, but I believe there is not enough clearance without the spacer, and the crank will hit the end of the filter.
Somewhere around mid 1998 they switched to a deeper sump to eliminate the need for the spacer. Some 98s have the spacer, some have the deep sump. I would guess the 2001 Jackel has the deep sump. Worth verifying though, just in case they had some left over parts. :BEER:
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Interesting the plug came out of the front of the Outsider. The pan is intact. I will try to get the pics up for him.
For now I would remove the outsider and just mount the pan with internal filter.
use the short filter from the early big block.
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It won't fit. The threaded mount is smaller on the small filter. A 2001 should have the deep sump and provision for the larger filter.
Pete
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Thanks to Mike and the team at Harpers!
Mike could you please explain the issue with this version of the outsider so all can be privy to the explanation?
Hoping to have it back in my hands soon as the weather has broken...I came home from New Zealand with all the snow gone and most of the winter sands washed from our roads. I am looking forward to getting back on the road!
Thanks again
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Frank, First let me thank you for sending that unit back so we could take care of the problem. The Outsider is a part that we have made in various configurations since the late 70's. It is a part that we watch and monitor very closely.
During that time we have had a couple of different machine shops help us with these pieces. The run in which yours was produced was in late 2010. The shop that made that run decided to change the machine plug from stainless to aluminum for some unknown reason. This plug has always been stainless, and was never to be changed, but the "engineer" at that shop decided differently. The Aluminum plug was not strong enough to withstand the pressure and then would subsequently blow out.
Problems with these units became apparent very shortly after that run started making it's way onto motorcycles. 16 of them had made it to the street before we were able to realize a problem. 14 of those were returned and replaced or refunded at that time. For some reason the owners of the other two did not wish to return them. After calls, letters, certified letters etc, they still refused.
During our conversation on the phone, you told me the name of the individual you bought the bike from and, yes it was one of those two Outsiders. I believe that the other has been found during this thread because if one of the stainless ones blew out, (which to our knowledge, never have) it could not be pushed back in and welded to aluminum.
The Outsider is now manufactured with threaded plugs.
It was quite perplexing to me at the time why those individuals would not acknowledge the manufacturer of a product saying it was a problem and that they wanted to stand behind their product and replace the part. Especially since it was an oil issue. Thankfully, we now have it fixed completely. Your replacement is on its way back to you. If you have any questions, always feel free to call me.
Curtis Harper
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From the backside of the planet I must make a comment about how impressed I am Curtis with the approach you have taken. I wish all manufacturers took your method of attacking a problem. ;-T ;-T ;-T
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Curtis, Mike,
Thank you very much for your attention to this matter. You guys are true business professionals in every way. I am sure all those familiar with your business are well aware of this and I asked for the explanation to put a close on this thread. Well done! You've got my business from here on.
Giusto (Frank)
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Thanks, we try the best we can. Screw some of it up, but we try. Nothing that we sell is worth more than the name Mike has built since 1967 in this business.
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Three cheers for Harper's!!! Not many manufacturers would go to all this to fix something that wasn't really their fault. Glad Frank is getting close to being on the road again. :BEER:
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Three cheers for Harper's!!! Not many manufacturers would go to all this to fix something that wasn't really their fault. Glad Frank is getting close to being on the road again.
In fact, I think that Harper's, to their enormous credit, went to extreme lengths to fix this exactly because it was their problem. The Outsider is a signature product of Harper's and, no matter who provides services and supplies to them, this is a Harper's part. No one in the world of customers cares a fig who supplied Harper's with an unsuitable plug. What the customer cares about is that he gets the full value expected for his money. And, since that money is ultimately paid to Harper's, they get credit for the all that's good about the product and responsibility for any problems.
Once again, my point is only that Harper's "owns" the Outsider business and all of its related issues. And, once again, it is a tribute to their outstanding business practices that they tracked down and tried to make good on every non-conforming part they could identify -- in this case on a belated, but still very timely, basis.
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Just wondering if your new "Outsider" was received and you are back on the road. ??
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Mike,
Thanks for the follow up. Yes up and running with no issues... Just in time for our spring weather.
You guys ate awesome!
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Thanks, Glad your going again
Mike and Curtis
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Now that's the way it "should" work.