Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: lucian on April 04, 2015, 05:15:20 PM
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Fiinally got out on the griso today , 44 degrees and sunny. We've had a few rains and the roads are pretty clean again.and other than a few pott holes, it felt great. I just wanted to give a big THANK YOU to Vasco for sharing a map that transformed my bike. Oh my god, It didn't even feel like the same bike. It's an 09 and had the 01 map before, it had a shitty flat spot around 3000 revs and was snatchy at idle. Now it is as it should be, smooth all the way up through and idles perfect . I also balanced the tb's which were out both at idle and at 3500rpm's.reset tps and learn parameters and can't believe the result. Before I thought it was just guzzi character and that's the way it was going to be, man was i wrong. So thank's again Pete and Mark, I don't think that griso could run any better than it does now, it's fantastic. ;-T
Happy Easter to all Dave
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"Fuel maps matter!"
They certainly do, my Calvin still can't breath!
Todd.
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The work is all Mark's. I'm just the messenger. Which map did you use?
I'm currently running the Mistral Hi-Pipe/dbK in map and it really is a peach,even Mark describes it as his 'Best Work'. For his own bike he's even improved things further by clever manipulation of the narrow band input with a wide band sensor. I haven't ridden the result but I know that on the run up to Gloucester a couple of weeks ago he was consistently putting in a litre less fuel at every top-up. Bastard! ;D
Pete
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Hey Pete, I believe the map was the fu 2, and i'm still in shock at the improvement. I'm running a termi with db killer. Am wondering what to expect on fuel mileage but it's definitely a lot less smelly at idle and it's still running on last falls ethanol. Tomorrow I'll get her some fresh high test and keep track and report back. Had the cooler baffle closed completely and it took 10 miles of riding in 44 degree f to get the oil up to 100 c. That's a cold blooded beast . Give Mark a big thanks for me.
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The FU2 suffix is virtually universal. It's the checksum number that will identify it. If it is the 'Universal' cat-con+dBK map it's probably the current itteration. I don't think it's been updated in the last few months.
Yes, they are cold blooded. I found on the trip back from Long Flat in the pouring rain that even with the baffle fully closed I had to be going 70mph plus to get the oil temp up to 100 even with the baffle shut!
Oh, and make sure your valve lash is set accurately at six thou inlet and eight exhaust. You'll be amazed how much even tiny discrepancies will make to how the engine runs!
Pete
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Same with my Stelvio! I loaded Mark's map last weekend, and it was a significant improvement over both the stock map, and the Power Commander that was put on by the previous owner. However, having just bought the bike, I wanted to check it over fully. Good thing I did! Valves were tight (below even the .004/.006!), and TBs were way out of balance at both speed and idle. Once I got that sorted, the bike just ran so sweetly I wanted to weep! The only remaining issue is an unsettled idle, so I started playing with CO Trim this afternoon. -5 seems to make it much more responsive, but possibly a bit rough on on/off throttle transitions (might be imagining that). I'll check it out further tomorrow.
Thanks, Mark and Pete for your maps and advice! ;-T
Shaun
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Valves are right there, I check them probably more than I should. I also put the ngk plug caps on and I see what you mean about the gaping hole above the exhaust ports. Guess I won't worry about the stock plug seals again. Also found that the breather line from the blowby tank to the air box was undone at the air box end so I reconnected it. Don't know what difference it will make, other than not dripping oil in front of my fricken rear tire! Maybe the breather system will work a little better we'll see. Hope to put some real miles on her this summer, sure is running sweet.
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Valves are right there, I check them probably more than I should. I also put the ngk plug caps on and I see what you mean about the gaping hole above the exhaust ports. Guess I won't worry about the stock plug seals again. Also found that the breather line from the blowby tank to the air box was undone at the air box end so I reconnected it. Don't know what difference it will make, other than not dripping oil in front of my fricken rear tire! Maybe the breather system will work a little better we'll see. Hope to put some real miles on her this summer, sure is running sweet.
With the breather pipe to the airbox it is important it be on but more important is to not fill the sump to above half way between the 'Add' and 'Full' marks. It has been a continuous and on-going issue that the factory specifies too much oil for the engine so the case pressurises more than it should and too much vapour gets ejected through the breather system and overwhelms the condensor. This leads to oil droplets being expelled into the airbox where, if it isn't drained often, it will eventually get drawn through the TB's and stepper gumming them up and leading to a high or erratic idle. I know I bang on about this but the vast majority of high and/or erratic idle issues I see are down to TB's that don't close fully and therefore the TPS interpretation is wrong or steppers that are clogged up with oily smeg.
Pete
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Thanks for that Pete, I have read some of your posts on that and will proceed with caution.
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Same with my Stelvio! I loaded Mark's map last weekend, and it was a significant improvement over both the stock map, and the Power Commander that was put on by the previous owner. However, having just bought the bike, I wanted to check it over fully. Good thing I did! Valves were tight (below even the .004/.006!), and TBs were way out of balance at both speed and idle. Once I got that sorted, the bike just ran so sweetly I wanted to weep! The only remaining issue is an unsettled idle, so I started playing with CO Trim this afternoon. -5 seems to make it much more responsive, but possibly a bit rough on on/off throttle transitions (might be imagining that). I'll check it out further tomorrow.
Thanks, Mark and Pete for your maps and advice! ;-T
Shaun
Good to hear Shaun , I was wondering how it would turn out . Mine is still a little rough after initial start up . Once warmed up it improves significantly , might need some tweeking next time I'm in Chilliwack but a great improvement over the map I purchased from Guzzi Tech .
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The 'FU2' is exactly what it seems - a not so subtle go at the haters who said I couldn't do it.
Lucian, I'm pleased you like it. The 4 character checksum immediately prior to the date in the file name is how I identify map iterations.
Shaun, I've got a new 2-Lambda Stelvio map of you want to try it. Mpg should be improved, and the ride should be smoother. It was smoother on the test ride (not by me) apparently.
Any Norge 8V owners who read this, I'm going to apply the same type of tweak to the Norge maps to improve smoothnes and mpg. Stay tuned.
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The 'FU2' is exactly what it seems - a not so subtle go at the haters who said I couldn't do it.
Lucian, I'm pleased you like it. The 4 character checksum immediately prior to the date in the file name is how I identify map iterations.
Shaun, I've got a new 2-Lambda Stelvio map of you want to try it. Mpg should be improved, and the ride should be smoother. It was smoother on the test ride (not by me) apparently.
Any Norge 8V owners who read this, I'm going to apply the same type of tweak to the Norge maps to improve smoothnes and mpg. Stay tuned.
Hi, Mark.
Yes, please, I would like very much to try it. Really enjoying the bike with the way it is running, but if additional improvements are possible, then they would be more than welcome. Will send a PM with my email again.
Cheers,
Shaun
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The 'FU2' is exactly what it seems - a not so subtle go at the haters who said I couldn't do it.
Haha I suspected as much, that is so funny :D Not to try and steal the thread but, Beetle have you had a look at the Cali 1400 map yet. Has anyone talked of mods to this map ?
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Not yet. It's a work in progress, shall we say?
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A couple of years ago all we had was an expensive reflash and bolt on gizmos which often did more harm than good, then along came Guzzidiag from Pauldaytona and his software guru.
Mark and a couple of others picked up the ball and ran with it and now riders all around the world are reaping the rewards. Amazing and a well deserved pat on the back to all concerned.
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Absolutely :+1. We owe Beard, Paul, Mark, Pete (even though he won't take any credit, he has been an incredible enabler and advocate), and you, too, Dave. Not to mention all the people who loaned their bikes for testing, and provided invaluable feedback. Amazing work, and it represents a real treasure to the community. :bow Can you believe that owning a Guzzi actually represents an advantage over others from a technical and support perspective? We're becoming positively mainstream! 8)
Shaun
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Hey Mark that map pete sent me is the fu2 -7799 nice work! Wondering how it compares to the factory 068 map? Dave
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Hey Mark that map pete sent me is the fu2 -7799 nice work! Wondering how it compares to the factory 068 map? Dave
I'll check to make sure that's the latest itteration in the morning, bear with me though as I've just succumbed to the flu bought back from Western Australia by my darling wife! From memory the spark map is the same or a mildly tweaked version of the 68S, the fuel side is radically different, the delta even more so but don't take my word for it I'm as sick as a dog. What I do know is that it's streets ahead of the 68S which was far and away the best of the factory maps for the Griso.
Pete
PS, just checked and yes, the 7799 is the latest G8-'Universal' Catcon/dBk map and was developed specifically for the Termi but will work with most 'Low' pipes with CatCon/dBk acceptably. Mark is gradually building up a library of custom maps for individual pipes but this takes time, lots of time, and of course 'Guinea Pig' bikes for logging purposes. In fact that is something I should post a separate message on but right now I need to go drown in a sea of mucous, please excuse me!
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Awright you guys, what is a "MAP", and where do I get one for my 02 EV11?
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In short a map is a serious of numeric tables used by the bike's ecu (electronic control unit) to calculate and supply the correct fuel via the injectors to the cylinders. The tables are influenced by the various sensors attached to the engine to monitor such things as exhaust CO content and engine temperature.
Someone here should be able to supply a map file via email but you need to obtain and be able to use the Guzzidiag software or find someone who can load it for you.
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So how would one MAP the bike? Is there a mapping tool/machine?
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I'll answer my own question. You need a Power Commander or similar. Sounds like a dealer-do.
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No you need a laptop or pc connected to your bike via a couple of cables.
Read more info here http://www.grisoghetto.com/t349-beetle-tech-guzzidiag-howto
You may need to join the forum to see the pictures.
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No, you don't need a power commander.
Your bike uses the 15M controller I believe? I'm pretty sure that the Reader and Writer software will work with that but Mark and I have been concentrating on the W5AM. The software is controller specific.
Writing maps is neither simple or intuitive, so far I have only dabbled and my attempts have resulted in less than stellar results but to do this you need writing software like Tunerpro, (There are others.) that enables you to examine and modify the tables.
Actually uploading and downloading maps from the ECU is easy-peasy. Building a map? Not so much. As Dave says there will probably be someone here who can provide you with a map but it is very important that the map has been built for a machine identical to yours, any differences to things like pipes and airboxes will render that map unsuitable for it. It is also vital that the bike be properly serviced and tuned. Remapping is NOT a 'Magic Bullet' that will cure all ills. It is just a means of addressing obstacles that may present when modifications are made or shortfalls in the original performance of the factory's offerings.
Pete
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Got it. Thanks.
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Any Norge 8V owners who read this, I'm going to apply the same type of tweak to the Norge maps to improve smoothnes and mpg. Stay tuned.
I'm standing by 😀
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Er..um...
Lucian, are you quite sure you are using the 7799 map? ???
Um, that is an 1100 map. Full map name is Griso-FU2-4V-7799.2014.10.10.bin? Please say no.
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I'm standing by 😀
I need a volunteer. You it?
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Hey Mark , that's it fu 2 -77992014 .10 10 I can flick it back to you if you like. Lol still feels like a 1200 to me. Duh I geuss I should have noticed it says 4v
Take care of yourself Pete, we need you!
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Nah. PM me your email address and I'll send you the right map.
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Hey Mark , that's it fu 2 -77992014 .10 10 I can flick it back to you if you like. Lol still feels like a 1200 to me. Duh I geuss I should have noticed it says 4v
Take care of yourself Pete, we need you!
Errr. Yes, rechecking that is the 1100 map, sorry my head is really crappy, the latest 8V map is the 27B9.
Lucian, flick me yer email addy in a PM and I'll get the 27B9 out to you. I'm surprised your bike is running at all well with an 1100 map in. Dunno what happened there???
Pete
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Pete . it runs unbelievable , no worries Mark is flipping me another to try but can't see how it could improve things. Hope you feel better fast and thanks for all you guy's do for us. Dave
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Anyway, I've sent you the 27B9. I found the message I sent you back in January but it won't show me its content so I can't check the map checsum.
Pete
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Got it Pete, your a good man. Thank's again Dave
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Stick the 27B9 in and don't forget to reset the TPS and self learners again. If you think it runs good with the 1100 map in, (Still can't work out how that happened, I always double check before sending maps out ???) stand by for a big surprise.
Pete
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I'll load it up tomorrow pm but they are calling for more frickin snow the next couple days.I'll report back as soon as I get the chance to flog it. :+=copcar
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Hi, Mark.
Well, I loaded up the new map for the Stelvio this morning, and was stunned to find that the bike felt even better! I honestly didn't think that was even possible!! At this point, I am deliriously happy about how the bike runs anytime it is moving. I haven't had a chance to check fuel mileage yet, but will do that when I have a chance, and will report back. It did seem to be going through a tank of fuel fast that I expected before, but then I was having immense fun with it, too!
Overall, the bike just seems smooth and happy all the way from just off idle to redline, with tons of grunt available at any time. I even managed to pull the front wheel without trying, just by rolling the throttle on from low speed. On/off throttle transitions are much smoother, and the bike is more confidence-inspiring at low speeds (although it wasn't that bad before). Overall, I Love it! I feel like a kid with a new toy, which I suppose I am!
The only issues that remain relate to the cold starting and a little unevenness at idle (cold or warm). The cold start (around freezing) is a pain, as the bike will stall out (with backfires sometimes) unless I hold the throttle open while cranking, and immediately get the revs up to about 3K RPM. It will then stay running, and if I keep it there for about 15-20 seconds, I can then let the throttle go, and it will idle from then on. That idle isn't bad, for the most part, and the throttle response is instantaneous as soon as I twist the grip. However, about once every ten seconds, the bike will seem to miss momentarily, then pick right back up again. No perfectly consistent interval, but a very noticeable pattern of activity. Again, as soon as I crank the throttle, the bike picks up beautifully.
At this point, other than the hard starting when cold, I am really nitpicking. If it would help, I can shoot some video of the GD screen with the bike running. I need to play more with CO trim, but it doesn't seem to have any impact on the idling issue.
Lucian, sorry for the thread hijack. Hope you don't mind covering two similar issue on the same topic? Good luck with the 8V map tomorrow!
Cheers,
Shaun
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When you get the 'Hesitation' at idle is it spitting back through the TB's? Look at the linkage rod between the two TB's and when it hesitates can you see the rod twitch?
If it is that is interesting as the 'Stelvio from Hell' that I've just rebuilt does the same thing but it's throttle bodies are in a sorry state. If yours is doing this too though it may not be a result of the shagged out spindle bushes on that bike.
Mark? How much spark advance is it running at idle? Maybe retarding it a degree or possibly two might cure it? Just a thought.
Pete
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No worries Shaun, hope you get the idle sorted out, my griso had a similar cold idle issue and it resolved after a careful tb balance and tps reset. Make sure the sacred screw hasn't been moved, but don't panic if it has, it's possible to get it back just a pita. Good luck Dave
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This from a guzzi tech posts, it works, don't ask how I know.
What to do if the throttle stop screw has been tampered with
You can tell if the in-hex headless screw (the “sacred screw”) has been tampered with if its head is no longer filled with yellow paint. Here is a method of resetting the "sacred screw".
• Using VDSTS reset the TPS as described earlier.
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Close both air bypass screws.
• Using a vacuum gauge set, balance the throttle vacuum as described earlier.
• Reset the TPS again.
• Use the air bypass screws to balance the idling vacuum. At this point you know that the throttles are balanced mechanically and electronically.
• The idling speed now is likely to be too high or too low but otherwise the engine should throttle well. To set the idling speed to the correct 1100 to 1150 RPM adjust the sacred screw as necessary.
• Reset the TPS again. This is necessary because the TPS will have moved relative to the left throttle position as set by the sacred screw.
• Fine tune the idling vacuum again using the air bypass screws.
END
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Hi, Pete.
I haven't noticed the rod twitching, but will look as soon as I can. I currently have the oil drained, and need a 25mm socket to pull out the dipstick surround, or a *very* narrow funnel in order to refill with it in place. Will get one, the other, or both tomorrow.
Edit: It doesn't seem to be spitting back through the TBs, but I will listen for that, too.
Not sure if it is helpful, but you can see/hear it running in this video. I focused on Guzzidiag as you can clearly see the values (RPM, TPS) change sometimes when you hear the revs drop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAI308oRKM4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAI308oRKM4&feature=youtu.be)
Bike runs amazingly other than cold starting or at idle.
Thanks for your help!
Shaun
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What to do if the throttle stop screw has been tampered with
You can tell if the in-hex headless screw (the “sacred screw”) has been tampered with if its head is no longer filled with yellow paint. Here is a method of resetting the "sacred screw".
• Using VDSTS reset the TPS as described earlier.
• Close both air bypass screws.
• Using a vacuum gauge set, balance the throttle vacuum as described earlier.
• Reset the TPS again.
• Use the air bypass screws to balance the idling vacuum. At this point you know that the throttles are balanced mechanically and electronically.
• The idling speed now is likely to be too high or too low but otherwise the engine should throttle well. To set the idling speed to the correct 1100 to 1150 RPM adjust the sacred screw as necessary.
• Reset the TPS again. This is necessary because the TPS will have moved relative to the left throttle position as set by the sacred screw.
• Fine tune the idling vacuum again using the air bypass screws.
END
Thanks, Lucien.
I certainly haven't touched the sacred screw, and I really hope no one else has, but will take a close look at it tomorrow. Again, it does run so well other than at idle. I did balance the TBs yesterday (along with valve adjustment and plug gapping).
Cheers,
Shaun
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Sounds like the same issue but it's hard to tell from a Utube vid.
Pete
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Mark? How much spark advance is it running at idle? Maybe retarding it a degree or possibly two might cure it? Just a thought.
Maybe. However, the only other bike running this map has no such issue. It was tested in slightly warmer temps though.
Need more data points. That is, another bike tested in cold temps near freezing.
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We aren't far off in the mornings Anzac Day is usually first frost.
???
Pete
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One preferably with good TB's. We know how sensitive the 8V is to TB balance and valve clearance.
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Y'ass M' (Tuggs forelock!) ;D
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Thanks, guys.
Just for reference, I did just set valve clearances and balance the TBs this weekend. Since doing this, the bike definitely runs more sweetly, but cold starting and idle apear unchanged from the last map. Also, with the stock map, cold starting was fine, and I think the idle was, too. I might try switching back to confirm. Only briefly, though -- it's just too good the way it is!
Cheers,
Shaun
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I've sent the map to another Stelvio owner. If I get similar feedback I will tweak the map appropriately.
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Thanks, Mark.
Shaun
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My griso did a similar thing. thought maybe map but turned out to be slightly damaged plug wire. Ran like crap at idle but once hot or off idle fine.
By plug wire I mean i have the NGK caps and the wire had loosened where you screw it in and was arching.
once i cut and rethreaded wire into cap all is well.
Just a maybe not perfectly sure.
Micky
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Mark, I loaded the new map and gave her a test run today, here's what I've noticed. The 7799 map is smoother at the 3 to 4000 rev range. Definitely more roll on power with the new map, but am getting a little popping on decel I didn't have before. Also when just cruising along at a fixed throttle setting and no load it stumbles and farts a little and before it was silky smooth with the 7799 map. I am wondering how the two maps compare at that rev range. Hammer down it pulls like a mule, just runs a little rough around 3 to 4ooo rpm's with no load. Any advice I would sure appreciate.Thank again Dave
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The 7799 is for a completely different engine. Don't use it with the 8V! Have you reset TPS and self learners? If so you can try playing with the CO trim a bit but I have a bike in at the moment that is identical to yours and it is silly well behaved with the CO at zero.
Pete
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Gotcha on that Pete, I am still confused at how smooth it just trolled along with the wrong map. I am sure it is a minor tweeking that is needed, I did pull a plug and it looks a little lean to me. Insulator white with a little tan on one side, no carbon ring on the thread base at all. I did reset tps and self learners as well after I loaded the map. Wondering if the ethanol up here could be a factor, all my chainsaws were to lean on the shit and had to back off the high speed screws before they blew up. I got a feeling it may play a role in putting more moisture in the combustion process contributing to the dreaded mayo in the top ends. But I don't know enough to be able to prove it. I realise the spark plug coloration is meaningless as it is the same plug that was run with the previous map. Thanks for the help, Dave
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Hi Mark, not sure if you remember me but my 8V norge was very difficult to start in cold temps with your map, think it was 6963? I went back to the OEM map and it starts fine. Thought I'd try your latest when it warms up here a bit more.
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Hey Pete, I just had a malox moment and realized I have my valves at the manual settings of 4 and 6 thousandths . I am wondering if that could make a difference if the map was built with a bike tuned at 6 and 8.
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Lucian, set them at 6 and 8 please. That stumble should disappear.
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MLR, just waitng to hear back from nikwax re latest Norge map. I suspec I may need tweak both it and the new Stelvio map for a better cold start.
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Hey Pete, I just had a malox moment and realized I have my valves at the manual settings of 4 and 6 thousandths . I am wondering if that could make a difference if the map was built with a bike tuned at 6 and 8.
Yes, it will make a huge difference! I found this out the hard way a couple of weekends ago when a load of the East Coast Ghetto members headed off to Long Flat in Northern NSW for a weekend of supposed riding the Oxley Hwy but we got rained out ???
Thing is I thought I would do what passes for lavishing attention on my old rattler and since I hadn't done the valves since dinosaurs ruled the earth I thought I'd better check 'em. They were still pretty much dead on on 6 and 8 but since I was in there I thought I'd go back to the A5 specs of 4 and 6 just for the hell of it and see what happened.
I wasn't expecting a lot, I thought I might need to alter the CO trim a bit maybe to get the idle where it should be but the reality was somewhat different. It went from being the sweetest running thing to an absolute munter! It wouldn't idle cold, it idled slow when warmed up, popped and farted on the over-run and just for good measure it stank! I actually rode it up to Gloucester some seven hundred and fifty km like this, it was 'orrible! I found it hard to believe that 2 thou extra lift and a few degrees more duration could make so much difference but it obviously did!
Anyway it was so horrible that the next morning this pair of horrible old codgers got stuck in in the car park at the B&B in Glocester.
(http://www.GRiSO.org/bowels.jpg)
Re-set them to 6&8 and it immediately returned to being its well behaved best!
I'm pretty certain that if I'd been running a closed loop map it would, to of a certain degree, of been able to trim around it. With an open loop map, especially on the 8V it is absolutely critical that everything be adjusted 'Just So' otherwise the results will be far from stellar!
I think perhaps I should do a short essay explaining a bit more of the 'How' and the 'Why' of the 8V and its sensitivity to even small changes and the importance of getting things RIGHT. I'm sure that a goodly number of the poor running issues people have are simply down to their bikes not being serviced properly. It doesn't matter what map you have in your ECU if the bike isn't tuned properly it'll still run like a hairy goat!
Pete
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Thanks Pete and Mark, I'll change those clearances asap, two more days of snow and rain coming so I 'll have time to mess with it and report back this weekend , weather gods willing. Nice promo picture for Moto Guzzi by the way! Hope you guy's get a kinder winter than we did. dave
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Do you know if there is a new map out or one is needed for V7C (2012)? Thanks!
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Unless your bike has un-muffled pipes on it it should run quite acceptably if it's tuned right. Pretty sure there have been no mapping updates for the twin TB Smallblocks in the last few years.
Pete
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MLR, just waitng to hear back from nikwax re latest Norge map. I suspec I may need tweak both it and the new Stelvio map for a better cold start.
erm, yeah, sorry, it's been pissing rain and hail here so I've not done the remap yet. Hmm, maybe I'll take the work laptop home tonight and install it.
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Fuel maps matter!
Didnt realise anyone in their right mind would think otherwise.
Ciao
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Any Norge 8V owners who read this, I'm going to apply the same type of tweak to the Norge maps to improve smoothnes and mpg. Stay tuned.
I will, tx in advance. Smoothness and mileage already improved with the present map, I'm walways in for more...
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I've been called a lot of things over the years, but right minded was never mentioned. Perhaps that's why I like Moto Guzzi's.
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For Pete and Mark, wanted to report back on my impressions of the latest map, I believe it is the universal 27b9. I first reset valve lash to 6 and 8 thou. reset tps and learn parameters. It now starts cold and idles perfectly,stepper is working as it should. Throttle response is incredible all the way through the rev's.more power than I'll probable ever use. I do however still have the annoying stumble on slack throttle at 3000 to 3500 rpm's,silky smooth when on throttle only when slack throttle and no load do I get it. It did the same with the 01 map, but not at all with the 7799. I've checked the plug wires and caps for arcing and found none as it almost feels ignition related, kind of like the hiccups, Once above 4000 rpm's it all disappears. Got me wishing for that 7799 map on the low rpm side. Was also wondering if the open loop could be responsible. Any thoughts? Thank's again Dave
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I don't think its related to the map per se.
This occurs on a trailing throttle, yes? When you are slowing down, in gear with the throttle closed? If so check and see if it happens consistently at 2,750-2,800rpm indicated. If it is a small 'Lurch' at that point consistently it'll be the fuel cutting back in. To avoid popping on the over-run at higher engine speeds the fuel is chopped completely at 4.6/4.8 throttle until that point. When it comes back in you can feel it and may sometimes get a small 'Pop' as it does so.
Pete
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Thank's Pete, I am not convinced it is a fueling problem at this point, other than the fact it still has ethanol from last fall in the tank. I will refrain from any tweeking until I burn that old crap off and get some fresh octane. It is on a trailing throttle when you get the less than smooth running , but it seems to be any time you are below 3500 rpm and at steady throttle. Finally got some spring weather and will have more time to ride, I should get out this week and I'll keep you posted. Thank you for responding. Dave
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Can't wait to have the time to plug in the map for the G11!
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Sadly I could not get Mark's Griso map to work well on my 09. Super power delivery when throttling up, but farts and coughs on slack throttle cruising in lower rev range. Re loaded the stock 01 map and it runs as it should. I have yet to venture into tuner pro, but would be interesting to compare the two maps in the lower rpm range. I think it may be related to ignition timing values. Thank you Mark for letting me try your map , Do I need to go to a dealer to try the 068s map? Other than a slight flat spot at 2900 rpm's , I am quite content with the 01. Dave
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Dave, yours is the only recent failure I've had with that map. Sorry I couldn't help. I can send you the 68S map if you like.
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I have to say I find this very odd and wonder if there is another problem, possibly tappet failure, involved.
Pete
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Thank's for that Pete, I just reset valve gaps to 6 and 8 thou. They were still in spec with the old settings of 4 and 6. I will run it a bit and check them again . Don't know what to expect of the 68 map but I will run it tomorrow and find out. At what point should you pull the cam boxes and have a looksee?
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I really have no idea what is happening with your bike but it certainly seems to me that something 'Ain't right'.
There are a number of things that have set alarm bells ringing. The fact it seemed to run quite well with the 1100 map I sent you by mistake. It shouldn't of. It should of run like a dog. Now it's not running right with a map that is known to work well on multiple machines in a variety of markets and in all conditions and altitudes.
Look, it could be a glitch in the map or the upload software, I really don't know but in all honesty I doubt it. Given the proven success of the map in other machines I'd be far more inclined to start looking elsewhere for problems. Has anybody ever screwed with the throttle stop screws? Has the linkage rod been buggered about with? How's the TB balance and TPS calibration? Dous the TPS have any 'Dead' spots? Is the air filter clean and installed correctly? Has it been swapped for some sort of shitty aftermarket item? How are the plug caps? They aren't arcing to earth at certain engine speeds and loads? Are the plugs new? If not when we're they last swapped?
When you start the bike from cold is it reluctant to idle unless you goose the throttle for 30 seconds or so? When it does idle is the idle slow or erratic? When warm will it 'Chuff' back through the throttle bodies, most noticeably when the throttle is just barely opened?
As I said, it may be a mapping issue but I'll bet London to a brick that there will be some sort of hint that I'd recognise as the source of the problem rather than the map. If you want to run stuff by me either here or via PM I'll do all I can, from a remote location, to try and get to the bottom of it!
Pete
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Here is what I have found after observing from a dead cold start, 48 degrees f. Without touching the throttle it cranks 4 times and fires up, idles at 1450 rpm for around 30 seconds and then drops to 1150, steadily. Tb's are in balance at 3000 rpm and at idle with the right side air bleed open about 1 turn, used my twin max tool at full sensitivity setting. Air box is stock and I just replaced the filter with an oem from dealer. Yellow paint is intact on link rod ends and on right side tb stop screw. The bellcrank adjustment screw I had to adjust slightly to achieve tb balance at 3000 rpm's maybe one quarter turn. Spark plugs are original I think, 4000 miles currently and they look good gapped to .025 in. Tps reset to 4.8 and have reset self learners, not sure how to check tps for flat spots other than watching values on guzzi diag while changing throttle settings. I did get a cough or perhaps a chuff as you mentioned with Mark's map, but I am not certain if it were back through the tb's. only in the lower rev's on a fixed throttle position. No evidence of it now with the 01 map. I will try the 068s and see what happens. It is hard to tell if the sacred screw on the left tb has been moved as it still has the yellow paint on the threads, but the center hole for the hex wrench is was not full of paint like the other side. I suspect it may have been moved slightly as the paint on the threads was slightly miss aligned. I lined it back up with the paint mark exactly and it changed the tps from 4.8 to 5.0. I then reset the tps electronically. It did not seem to effect idle at either spot. If the 68 map runs well I may try reloading Mark's map again as maybe my pos laptop could have f'd something up during the upload. I realize how difficult it is without being able to put your hands on the bike , I am happy to do what I can do with my limited skills. Thank's again Dave.
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The fact it isn't doing it with the 01 map may be significant. We're established how very sensitive the 8V mill is to even miniscule changes in valve timing and lift. A closed loop map will adjust to these much more readily than an open loop map which doesn't compensate or change anything. I'm seriously wondering about your cams and tappets now but without a tool like a vacuum mate it's impossible to look at manifold depression dynamically which might tell us something but the only real options would be to graph the cams and compare them or remove and examine them.
In your ownership of the machine have the valve clearances opened up suddenly and inexplicably between checks at any time?
Pete
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Pete , I understand your logic, I checked the valves shortly after purchasing and they were slightly looser than the manual setting of 4 and 6 thou. It had about 2000 miles on it then, by looser I mean maybe 1 thou. at most. I reset them to 4 and 6 and they have been holding fine for an additional 2000 miles. I just changed them to 6 and 8 when I installed Mark's map. I have no way of knowing what the gaps were set at prior to my ownership. I was however surprised that they were looser than the recommended setting, I kind of thought with valve recession they would be tight if anything, but I had no base line to judge from. Moving forward I think it may be wise to inspect the cam followers for wear, I hesitate to do so without having a roller kit on hand encase I discover the worst. When I discussed this with the dealer they said it would be a two hour charge to just inspect and if they found a failure, and if MG would provide the parts, it would be another 750 dollars labor to install, So at least a thousand dollars if all goes well. I can imagine there will be additional incidentals as there always is. I can purchase the c kit from af1 for fourteen hundred bucks and have the ability to do it myself with a little research. But to just inspect the cams and followers, will I need to replace the head and base gaskets after de torquing the heads ?Also I think I remember reading that you first have to loosen a couple of bolts at the base of the barrels. I have read the on line shop manual but it seems sketchy at best. Also I do not notice any change in the sound of the valve train, other than the standard bucket of bolts morse chain rattle, Sure do appreciate your take on all of this , I think I'll flog it hard this weekend and see if anything changes. Stay well, Dave
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If your bike needs the 'C' kit, (Are there witness marks made with a drill on the inner sides of the heads?) then the heads have to be removed to add shims beneath the inlet valve springs when converting to a roller top end. This will add substantially to the time needed to do the swap. Make sure your shop knows this.
Pete
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If your bike needs the 'C' kit, (Are there witness marks made with a drill on the inner sides of the heads?) then the heads have to be removed to add shims beneath the inlet valve springs when converting to a roller top end. This will add substantially to the time needed to do the swap. Make sure your shop knows this.
Pete
Could they not be replaced with compressed air holding the valve in place, similar to the procedure for the valve spring replacement on the Hydro Californias?
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While in theory yes the fact is by the time the camboxes are off there is very little to be gained by doing it in-situ and you'd need a mechanism to hold the head under tension. Unlike the pushrod motor removing the rockers requires removing two of the stud nuts opening up all sorts of jolly opportunities for warping the heads etc.
Pete
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The 'FU2' is exactly what it seems - a not so subtle go at the haters who said I couldn't do it.
Lucian, I'm pleased you like it. The 4 character checksum immediately prior to the date in the file name is how I identify map iterations.
Shaun, I've got a new 2-Lambda Stelvio map of you want to try it. Mpg should be improved, and the ride should be smoother. It was smoother on the test ride (not by me) apparently.
Any Norge 8V owners who read this, I'm going to apply the same type of tweak to the Norge maps to improve smoothnes and mpg. Stay tuned.
You can bet we're staying tuned, thanks to you. :BEER:
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Finely solved the mystery of why Mark's map did not work in my griso, seems the sacred screw had been thoroughly f@#!cked with. I have been running the 68s map Mark so graciously sent me to try. It ran well but still lacked smoothness on slack throttle, especially at 3000 rpm's and below. I first ruled out everything else I possibly could by checking tb balance and valve lash , both are spot on. Also replaced the plugs. Something struck me as odd after the tb balance and tps reset when max tps reading was only 83.6. Upon closer inspection of tb linkage I could see that the left side throttle stop (sacred screw) did not allow the right side throttle stop to even seat. Fortunately the right side stop screw had not been disturbed or the link rod ends. So I dropped the link rod off allowing the right tb to close against its factory set stop, amazingly enough the tps value went to 4.7. I then closed both air bleeds and hooked up the twin max and used the sacred screw to balance the left side with the right. Then by adjusting the bellcrank screw until the link rod became exactly aligned with the right side ball I re attached it. The sacred screw had been turned in almost a turn and a half! No wonder it couldn't trim properly. Anyway I reset the tps and self learners and continued on with the 68 map and it now ran beautifully with just a slight popping on decel occasionally. I attributed the popping to the fact that I am running a termi pipe with a factory map so I decided to re try Beetle's map again. Holly shit,, can't believe it. It is truly a joy to be able to cruise along at 3000 rpm at fixed throttle with no off on fueling, I can't thank Mark enough for his efforts. Also if it weren't for Pete and Marks generosity I probably never would have sorted out this issue. Also the popping on decel is gone and when the linear power cure hits 5000 rpm you better be paying attention. All this time the poor ecu was trying to sort out bogus input and remarkably it did a decent job of it , to a point. So thank you Mark for your outstanding creation, And thank you Pete for raising my suspicions. Aussies rule!
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That'll do it every time.
Knew it wasn't a mapping issue ergo it had to be tune/set-up.
Pete
PS. If you think you need to be paying attention at 5,000 with the Termi map I can tell you that using a no dBk Mistral Hi-Pipe with the right map and giving it the berries at 7.5 will really wake you up! :D I prefer the quiet and docility of the dbK in map but every once in a while, if I'm feeling the need.........
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Fiinally got out on the griso today , 44 degrees and sunny. We've had a few rains and the roads are pretty clean again.and other than a few pott holes, it felt great. I just wanted to give a big THANK YOU to Vasco for sharing a map that transformed my bike. Oh my god, It didn't even feel like the same bike. It's an 09 and had the 01 map before, it had a shitty flat spot around 3000 revs and was snatchy at idle. Now it is as it should be, smooth all the way up through and idles perfect . I also balanced the tb's which were out both at idle and at 3500rpm's.reset tps and learn parameters and can't believe the result. Before I thought it was just guzzi character and that's the way it was going to be, man was i wrong. So thank's again Pete and Mark, I don't think that griso could run any better than it does now, it's fantastic. ;-T
Happy Easter to all Dave
;-T ;-T
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Finely solved the mystery of why Mark's map did not work in my griso, seems the sacred screw had been thoroughly f@#!cked with.
Eureka! Good work fixing that too. Nicely done. :bow
So thank you Mark for your outstanding creation, And thank you Pete for raising my suspicions.
;D ;-T You are most welcome.
Aussies rule!
:D
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(snipped) Also the popping on decel is gone and when the linear power cure hits 5000 rpm you better be paying attention.
(snipped)
Lucian, thanks very much for taking the time to write such a good informative post. I'm curious about the lack of backfiring on decel. with the new map? (I'm locked into the term "backfiring" by my career choice. :)) I worked on several of my GM car engines over the years where the ECU would shut off the injectors after the throttle was closed for a short time. The explanation I got was that it helped with engine braking when the torque converter clutch was engaged. Do you know if the new map is shutting off fuel like this on decel.? Which would explain the lack of backfiring, right? I haven't loaded the new map I've gotten from Mark yet, but my Norge backfires on decel. also but it doesn't bug me that much. I'm just curious. Thanks for any info.
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Fuel is chopped completely on the over-run down to, (I believe.) 2,700rpm so at 4.6-4.8 TPS reading this means that when the throttle is closed no fuel is delivered until the engine slows to 2,700 RPM. No fuel? No backfiring. With the factory maps idle fuel is delivered all the way down, no matter what the TPS reading. At certain points the pipe harmonics will make the engine 8 and 16 stroke so the mix burns in the pipe. Hence the backfiring.
Pete
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There you have it. I would definitely recommend that you try Marks map. It's a privilege to be able to do so and will likely surprise you as to the improvement, especially in the lower rev range, and on steady throttle openings. Just make sure your norge is tuned properly to start with as no map no matter what cannot fix mechanical set up issues. At one point I was willing to live with the little fueling quirks on my griso as I didn't know any different, but thanks to some great folks here on wg, I was enlightened an able to resolve what had been bugging me from day one. Best of luck. dave
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Hey guys, I got a new Stelvio NTX last month and been reading all about the famous 'Mark map' and how much it improves throttle response -- which is one of the gripes I've been having with the bike since I use it as a commuter. I was planning on getting the whole guzzitech kit with PCV/Autotune and map but since I already have the cables for the mapping I want to give it a go to one of those custom maps.
What is the procedure to download the mapping? or better how to contact Mark :)
Thanks in advance.
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Fuel is chopped completely on the over-run down to, (I believe.) 2,700rpm so at 4.6-4.8 TPS reading this means that when the throttle is closed no fuel is delivered until the engine slows to 2,700 RPM. No fuel? No backfiring. With the factory maps idle fuel is delivered all the way down, no matter what the TPS reading. At certain points the pipe harmonics will make the engine 8 and 16 stroke so the mix burns in the pipe. Hence the backfiring.
Pete
Just noticed this answer to my question about fuel shutoff on decal. Thanks.