Fuel maps matter!

[Vasco DG]

Hey Mark , that's it fu 2 -77992014 .10 10 I can flick it back to you if you like. Lol  still feels like a 1200 to me. Duh I geuss I should have noticed it says 4v

Take care of yourself Pete,  we need you!

Errr. Yes, rechecking that is the 1100 map, sorry my head is really crappy, the latest 8V map is the 27B9.

Lucian, flick me yer email addy in a PM and I'll get the 27B9 out to you. I'm surprised your bike is running at all well with an 1100 map in. Dunno what happened there???

Pete

[lucian]

Pete . it runs unbelievable , no worries Mark is flipping me another to try but can't see how it could improve things. Hope you feel better fast and thanks for all you guy's do for us.   Dave

[Vasco DG]

Anyway, I've sent you the 27B9. I found the message I sent you back in January but it won't show me its content so I can't check the map checsum.

Pete

[lucian]

Got it Pete, your a good man. Thank's again    Dave

[Vasco DG]

Stick the 27B9 in and don't forget to reset the TPS and self learners again. If you think it runs good with the 1100 map in, (Still can't work out how that happened, I always double check before sending maps out ???) stand by for a big surprise.

Pete

[lucian]

I'll load it up tomorrow pm but they are calling for more frickin snow the next couple days.I'll report back as soon as I get the chance to flog it.  :+=copcar

[smdl]

Hi, Mark.

Well, I loaded up the new map for the Stelvio this morning, and was stunned to find that the bike felt even better!  I honestly didn't think that was even possible!!  At this point, I am deliriously happy about how the bike runs anytime it is moving.  I haven't had a chance to check fuel mileage yet, but will do that when I have a chance, and will report back.  It did seem to be going through a tank of fuel fast that I expected before, but then I was having immense fun with it, too! 

Overall, the bike just seems smooth and happy all the way from just off idle to redline, with tons of grunt available at any time.  I even managed to pull the front wheel without trying, just by rolling the throttle on from low speed.  On/off throttle transitions are much smoother, and the bike is more confidence-inspiring at low speeds (although it wasn't that bad before).  Overall, I Love it!  I feel like a kid with a new toy, which I suppose I am!

The only issues that remain relate to the cold starting and a little unevenness at idle (cold or warm).  The cold start (around freezing) is a pain, as the bike will stall out (with backfires sometimes) unless I hold the throttle open while cranking, and immediately get the revs up to about 3K RPM.  It will then stay running, and if I keep it there for about 15-20 seconds, I can then let the throttle go, and it will idle from then on.  That idle isn't bad, for the most part, and the throttle response is instantaneous as soon as I twist the grip.  However, about once every ten seconds, the bike will seem to miss momentarily, then pick right back up again.  No perfectly consistent interval, but a very noticeable pattern of activity.  Again, as soon as I crank the throttle, the bike picks up beautifully.

At this point, other than the hard starting when cold, I am really nitpicking.  If it would help, I can shoot some video of the GD screen with the bike running.  I need to play more with CO trim, but it doesn't seem to have any impact on the idling issue.

Lucian, sorry for the thread hijack.  Hope you don't mind covering two similar issue on the same topic?  Good luck with the 8V map tomorrow!

Cheers,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

When you get the 'Hesitation' at idle is it spitting back through the TB's? Look at the linkage rod between the two TB's and when it hesitates can you see the rod twitch?

If it is that is interesting as the 'Stelvio from Hell' that I've just rebuilt does the same thing but it's throttle bodies are in a sorry state. If yours is doing this too though it may not be a result of the shagged out spindle bushes on that bike.

Mark? How much spark advance is it running at idle? Maybe retarding it a degree or possibly two might cure it? Just a thought.

Pete

[lucian]

No worries Shaun, hope you get the idle sorted out, my griso had a similar cold idle issue and it resolved after a careful tb balance and tps reset. Make sure the sacred screw hasn't been moved, but don't panic if it has, it's possible to get it back just a pita. Good luck  Dave

[lucian]

This from a guzzi tech posts, it works, don't ask how I know.


What to do if the throttle stop screw has been tampered with
You can tell if the in-hex headless screw (the “sacred screw”) has been tampered with if its head is no longer filled with yellow paint. Here is a method of resetting the "sacred screw".

• Using VDSTS reset the TPS as described earlier.
•
 Close both air bypass screws.
• Using a vacuum gauge set, balance the throttle vacuum as described earlier.
• Reset the TPS again.
• Use the air bypass screws to balance the idling vacuum. At this point you know that the throttles are balanced mechanically and electronically.
• The idling speed now is likely to be too high or too low but otherwise the engine should throttle well. To set the idling speed to the correct 1100 to 1150 RPM adjust the sacred screw as necessary.
• Reset the TPS again. This is necessary because the TPS will have moved relative to the left throttle position as set by the sacred screw.
• Fine tune the idling vacuum again using the air bypass screws.
END

[smdl]

Hi, Pete.

I haven't noticed the rod twitching, but will look as soon as I can.  I currently have the oil drained, and need a 25mm socket to pull out the dipstick surround, or a *very* narrow funnel in order to refill with it in place.  Will get one, the other, or both tomorrow.  

Edit:  It doesn't seem to be spitting back through the TBs, but I will listen for that, too.

Not sure if it is helpful, but you can see/hear it running in this video.  I focused on Guzzidiag as you can clearly see the values (RPM, TPS) change sometimes when you hear the revs drop.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAI308oRKM4&feature=youtu.be

Bike runs amazingly other than cold starting or at idle.

Thanks for your help!
Shaun

[smdl]

What to do if the throttle stop screw has been tampered with
You can tell if the in-hex headless screw (the “sacred screw”) has been tampered with if its head is no longer filled with yellow paint. Here is a method of resetting the "sacred screw".
• Using VDSTS reset the TPS as described earlier.
• Close both air bypass screws.
• Using a vacuum gauge set, balance the throttle vacuum as described earlier.
• Reset the TPS again.
• Use the air bypass screws to balance the idling vacuum. At this point you know that the throttles are balanced mechanically and electronically.
• The idling speed now is likely to be too high or too low but otherwise the engine should throttle well. To set the idling speed to the correct 1100 to 1150 RPM adjust the sacred screw as necessary.
• Reset the TPS again. This is necessary because the TPS will have moved relative to the left throttle position as set by the sacred screw.
• Fine tune the idling vacuum again using the air bypass screws.
END

Thanks, Lucien.

I certainly haven't touched the sacred screw, and I really hope no one else has, but will take a close look at it tomorrow.  Again, it does run so well other than at idle.  I did balance the TBs yesterday (along with valve adjustment and plug gapping).

Cheers,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

Sounds like the same issue but it's hard to tell from a Utube vid.

Pete

[beetle]

Mark? How much spark advance is it running at idle? Maybe retarding it a degree or possibly two might cure it? Just a thought.

Maybe. However, the only other bike running this map has no such issue. It was tested in slightly warmer temps though.

Need more data points. That is, another bike tested in cold temps near freezing.

[Vasco DG]

We aren't far off in the mornings Anzac Day is usually first frost.

 ???

Pete

[beetle]

One preferably with good TB's. We know how sensitive the 8V is to TB balance and valve clearance.

[Vasco DG]

Y'ass M' (Tuggs forelock!)  ;D

[smdl]

Thanks, guys.

Just for reference,  I did just set valve clearances and balance the TBs this weekend.  Since doing this, the bike definitely runs more sweetly, but cold starting and idle apear unchanged from the last map.  Also, with the stock map, cold starting was fine, and I think the idle was, too.  I might try switching back to confirm.  Only briefly, though -- it's just too good the way it is!

Cheers,
Shaun

[beetle]

I've sent the map to another Stelvio owner. If I get similar feedback I will tweak the map appropriately.

[smdl]

Thanks, Mark.

Shaun

[Gootsz]

My griso did a similar thing. thought maybe map but turned out to be slightly damaged plug wire. Ran like crap at idle but once hot or off idle fine.

By plug wire I mean i have the NGK caps and the wire had loosened  where you screw it in and was arching.

once i cut and rethreaded wire into cap all is well.

Just a maybe not perfectly sure.

Micky

[lucian]

Mark, I loaded the new map and gave her a test run today, here's what I've noticed. The 7799 map is smoother at the 3 to 4000 rev range. Definitely more roll on power with the new map, but am getting a little popping on decel I didn't have before. Also when just cruising along at a fixed throttle setting and no load it stumbles and farts a little and before it was silky smooth with the 7799 map. I am wondering how the two maps compare at that rev range. Hammer down it pulls like a mule, just runs a little rough around 3 to 4ooo rpm's with no load. Any advice I would sure appreciate.Thank again Dave

[Vasco DG]

The 7799 is for a completely different engine. Don't use it with the 8V! Have you reset TPS and self learners? If so you can try playing with the CO trim a bit but I have a bike in at the moment that is identical to yours and it is silly well behaved with the CO at zero.

Pete

[lucian]

Gotcha on that Pete, I am still confused at how smooth it just trolled along with the wrong map. I am sure it is a minor tweeking that is needed, I did pull a plug and it looks a little lean to me. Insulator white with a little tan on one side, no carbon ring on the thread base at all. I did reset tps and self learners as well after I loaded the map. Wondering if the ethanol up here could be a factor, all my chainsaws were to lean on the shit and had to back off the high speed screws before they blew up. I got a feeling it may play a role in putting more moisture in the combustion process contributing to the dreaded mayo in the top ends. But I don't know enough to be able to prove it. I realise the spark plug coloration is meaningless as it is the same plug that was run with the previous map.      Thanks for the help,    Dave

[MLR]

Hi Mark, not sure if you remember me but my 8V norge was very difficult to start in cold temps with your map, think it was 6963? I went back to the OEM map and it starts fine. Thought I'd try your latest when it warms up here a bit more.

[lucian]

Hey Pete, I just had a malox moment and realized I have my valves at the manual settings of 4 and 6 thousandths . I am wondering if that could make a difference if the map was built with a bike tuned at 6 and 8.

[beetle]

Lucian, set them at 6 and 8 please. That stumble should disappear.

[beetle]

MLR, just waitng to hear back from nikwax re latest Norge map. I suspec I may need tweak both it and the new Stelvio map for a better cold start.

[Vasco DG]

Hey Pete, I just had a malox moment and realized I have my valves at the manual settings of 4 and 6 thousandths . I am wondering if that could make a difference if the map was built with a bike tuned at 6 and 8.

Yes, it will make a huge difference! I found this out the hard way a couple of weekends ago when a load of the East Coast Ghetto members headed off to Long Flat in Northern NSW for a weekend of supposed riding the Oxley Hwy but we got rained out ???

Thing is I thought I would do what passes for lavishing attention on my old rattler and since I hadn't done the valves since dinosaurs ruled the earth I thought I'd better check 'em. They were still pretty much dead on on 6 and 8 but since I was in there I thought I'd go back to the A5 specs of 4 and 6 just for the hell of it and see what happened.

I wasn't expecting a lot, I thought I might need to alter the CO trim a bit maybe to get the idle where it should be but the reality was somewhat different. It went from being the sweetest running thing to an absolute munter! It wouldn't idle cold, it idled slow when warmed up, popped and farted on the over-run and just for good measure it stank! I actually rode it up to Gloucester some seven hundred and fifty km like this, it was 'orrible! I found it hard to believe that 2 thou extra lift and a few degrees more duration could make so much difference but it obviously did!

Anyway it was so horrible that the next morning this pair of horrible old codgers got stuck in in the car park at the B&B in Glocester.



Re-set them to 6&8 and it immediately returned to being its well behaved best!

I'm pretty certain that if I'd been running a closed loop map it would, to of a certain degree, of been able to trim around it. With an open loop map, especially on the 8V it is absolutely critical that everything be adjusted 'Just So' otherwise the results will be far from stellar!

I think perhaps I should do a short essay explaining a bit more of the 'How' and the 'Why' of the 8V and its sensitivity to even small changes and the importance of getting things RIGHT. I'm sure that a goodly number of the poor running issues people have are simply down to their bikes not being serviced properly. It doesn't matter what map you have in your ECU if the bike isn't tuned properly it'll still run like a hairy goat!

Pete

[lucian]

Thanks Pete and Mark, I'll change those clearances asap, two more days of snow and rain coming so I 'll have time to mess with it and report back this weekend , weather gods willing. Nice promo picture for Moto Guzzi by the way! Hope you guy's get a kinder winter than we did.    dave