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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: JeffOlson on June 09, 2015, 02:30:18 PM
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Greetings!
My 2014 Norge is lot of fun, but it is not very comfortable after 100 miles or so, and it is pretty unstable above 65 miles per hour. I would like a motorcycle that is comfortable for three hours at a stretch (at least 150 miles) and is rock solid on the freeway at 75 miles per hour. Unfortunately, my Norge is neither. It is great around town and on back roads, and it is comfortable enough for shorter distances, but it is exhausting and painful to ride more than 100 miles at a stretch, and it is surprisingly unstable at 70 to 80 miles per hour. (Strangely, it becomes stable again at 90 miles per hour!)
The cockpit is frankly just too cramped for me. I am 5' 10" tall, with a 31 inch inseam, and a little under 200 pounds sans gear. And the winds and turbulence on the freeway at 75 miles per hour bounce me all over my lane.
I no longer have an automobile, so I am relying upon my Norge as my daily driver. (My wife has a new truck for when my Moto Guzzi is in the shop!) I need to be able to ride in comfort at high speed for three hours at a stretch, in the dark and in the rain. I also need hard, locking panniers.
Any thoughts? Would the Stelvio be better, or the California 1400 Touring? Or perhaps a Road King, R 1200 RT, or Trophy SE?
Thanks!
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a sport 1100 is far more comfortable than you would think
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The Iron Butt guys seem to swear by the Yamaha FJR1300, or whatever its current variant is. But it is heavy, like 70 pounds more than an R1200RT or Norge.
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I know this is a Guzzi board, but... My 2015 R1200GS is smooth and rock solid at 80 mph and with all the adjustments (seat, windshield, etc.) you should be able to find a comfortable position. The RT would be even more so. I am also getting excellent gas mileage: 44-46 at sea level and 53-55 in the NC mountains which translates into a 250 mile range.
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I've never heard that kind of negative report on a Norge, and my (limited) experience with the bikes is quite the opposite as yours.
What is it about the Norge's seating that is uncomfortable? I found Norge to be touring-bike comfortable. In fact, too "touring" for my daily riding tastes...
I got nothing on the instability. Never heard that complaint. Didn't experience it when I've demo'd the bikes.
Sounds to me like an aftermarket seat and a larger windscreen would be worth trying, before trading it for something else.
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Jeff, the Stelvio is rock solid at Interstate speeds and more. I have a Russel Day Long seat and can easily stay in the saddle for 3+ hours (at which time my bladder says WHOA) but then I can proceed to knock out a 600 mile day with no drama. I'd pick this setup for my next 1Kday. The OEM seat is darn good, I just like the RDL better.
Of course the NTX has lockable hard bags.
I had a Norge and had some of the same comfort issues you mention: sitting down in the bike rather than on the machine seemed to lock me into a position I could not live with. My knees hated being bent so much and I could not wiggle around on the seat enough to keep from getting ass-ache.
Your 31 inch inseam might be an issue. Sit on a Stelvio and make sure the seat is in the low position.
Peter Y.
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I generally found my Breva to be quite solid on the highway, just like my R1100RS was.
BUT in comparison, when it came to foul weather, especially with high winds, I always found something that sat lower and didn't have a half or full fairing was MORE SOLID.
So to that end, I think an RK or Cali 1400 MIGHT offer some advantage at that.
Comfort is a case of ergos, and that's too personal/subjective, so I won't bother trying.
But if cross-winds and turbulence are your complaint, I think you want to sit lower on a machine that has less solid surface area to catch that wind.
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Yeah Kev,
I've always preferred bikes with nothing more than a half-fairing because they do seem more stable in crosswinds and around semis.
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Yeah Kev,
I've always preferred bikes with nothing more than a half-fairing because they do seem more stable in crosswinds and around semis.
So a Breva MAY BE more stable than a Norge in the same situation, and MAYBE a Stelvio too for that same reason.
Though like I said, both my Breva and R1100RS were worse in crosswinds than say my Sporty or RK...so I imagine a Cali 1400 would be better still than both the Norge or Stelvio.
Don't know which is a big enough a difference for the OP to care.
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Jeff, sorry to hear about your experience with the Norge. I just have to say that perhaps your Norge simply isn't set up properly. I am 5'10" with a 32 inseam and about 165 pounds.
An interesting read on riding styles, especially the begging puppy puppy dog style.
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2737
My 2013 Norge is as stable as a rock at any speed I can manage to ride which is anywhere from out of the driveway to 90+ sustained. I generally ride with side bags and the tail trunk on and at moderate speeds of 65-80 on any road it feels as though the tires are on velcro. I am comparing it to A Triumph Trophy 1200, Honda ST1100, Suzuki V-Strom DL1000 and the old V65 Sabre which was about as stable as the Rock of Gibraltar.
If your Norge is unstable at 70-80 which is a sweet spot for the Norge, something just has to be wrong in the setup.
Side wind buffeting is a problem on full fairing bikes no matter who makes them and the higher you sit up the worse it is. The more area you present to the wind, the worse it gets.
Try the FJR as it sits decently low to the ground. Be prepared for a reach to the bars though. With a 31" inseam, you will probably find any ADV style bike far taller than is comfortable. With low seats you really sit in them more than the Norge and moving around while riding might be a real challenge.
The begging puppy riding position of a lot of ADV style bikes seems like it is comfortable and while some riders can go for lots of miles in that position, it can really do a number on your back after a while as all your weight in on your butt instead of your thighs.
Good luck with your search.
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Before you give up on the Norge I would check into an after market windshield and have the fork neck bearings checked for proper adjustment. Hopefully some Norge owners will give some suggestions on windshields.
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You mentioned you ride in the rain. Are your riding clothes very loose fitting? I ask because I once rode with a rather baggy fitting pair of pants and jacket and every time a gust of wind hit me, it felt like I was a sail going for the big lean.
If you ride with your knees and elbows splayed out that will also affect stability int he wind. Sometimes the riding style can really affect ride quality.
Cal Sci has a variety of windscreens in different height but in general, the bigger the windscreen, the more there is to catch wind too.
One more thing. Some helmets will bounce your head all over the place when they catch wind. Don't underestimate the effect that this can have on how stable the bike feels. The bike follows the path of vision and if your head is getting pushed around, the bike might be following.
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comfort is subjective but I didn't find the bike unstable.
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Corbin seat makes a MASSIVE difference in comfort.
Either a shorter or taller windscreen will also have a significant improvement in the buffeting. I'm right at the same height / inseam as you are and had to change both of these items on my Norge to get comfortable. Many days of 300-500 miles with no problems once these items were in place. Also a good set of earplugs...
I do think that for those of us in this height, the stock windscreen with the inwardly tapering shape is very badly designed - looks nice, but functionally inefficient. I'm running a Cal Sci Tinted Shorty and love it, and even the Cal - Sci medium is even more protection and provides that quiet pocket to ride in...I just don't like the way it looks...too tall for my taste.
Baggy clothing - if that's catching wind, could blow you around also...
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The Breva, Sport, and Norge should be very stable and planted at highway speeds. Gotta be something wrong.
Since you stated it smoothed back out at 90, I would suggest you first confirm tire pressure (front and back), then if that was OK, re-seat the forks and axle. To do that, simply loosen the front axle nut and the pinch bolts slightly, barely looser that finger tight. Then get on the bike and roll it forward and backward hitting the front brake hard to compress or extend the suspension. After several times, gently get off the bike without letting the forks/handbars move to the side and go through a proper torque progression on the axle and pinch bolts. Ride the bike and see if it has settled down in the unstable speed range.
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I do have a few helpers on the comfort front: a larger Agostini touring screen, which looks exactly like the stock screen except it is a few inches taller and and a few inches wider (it helps a great deal on the freeway); lowering foot pegs and toe pegs from Knight Design; and the Airhawk R inflatable seat cushion. They are all helpful.
However, I am not talking about short-trip comfort. The Norge is great for an hour or two and 100 miles or so. It is longer trips that are a pain. I would like to travel from Hubbard, Oregon to Olympia, Washington, up I-5, non-stop and in comfort. From one point to the other, it is about 150 miles and nearly three hours of riding. The last third is the painful part. I really wish I could stand up while riding; that would help, but on the Norge I am out over the front of the windscreen when I do that.
As far as instability goes, I wonder if it is due to riding solo with the top case. In any event, it is just between about 70 and 90 miles per hour, on the freeway, with semis and sleds all around... The bouncing around at freeway speeds contributes to my exhaustion.
I am getting older (I'm 57 now), but I'm in pretty good shape for my age (and in much better shape than I was 10 years ago before I started running and dropped 50 pounds), so I don't think it is an issue of weakness or frail health.
I keep thinking of my now-departed Ducati ST2. That bike was stable. Not much wind or weather protection, but it was as stable as anything I have ridden...
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I've never used a seat cushion, but I can't imagine it would be superior to a full custom seat - it makes a world of difference, the stock seat would put me to sleep after 100 miles and the Corbin is pure luxury seating by comparison...all day long riding.
When you say you stand to stretch and end up in front of the windscreen, you have to be leaning WAY forward to do so or that windscreen is tilted way back.
It could be the rear box, but I have a couple friends riding their Norges here with just the top box and no sidebags and they don't complain about buffeting at all.
The other item to consider is what kind of clothing you are wearing...at the risk of delving into personal dress code, long trips with the proper undergarments (LD comfort for example), with no seams can really help to prevent numbness as well.
Ear plugs...I find that helps a lot to minimize mental and physical exhaustion...especi ally if you are getting buffeting.
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^ A new Corbin seat might indeed be the ticket to greater comfort. Regarding the buffeting, I think it is due to the cars and trucks around me; I do not notice it nearly as much when I am the only vehicle on the road. The leaning forward simply happens when I stand because the handle bars are not high enough (or my arms are too short!).
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I am not talking about short-trip comfort...
From one point to the other, it is about 150 miles and nearly three hours of riding. The last third is the painful part.
Brother, 150 miles IS a short trip. That's two hours on the interstate. If you can't be comfortable on the Norge for that with an Air Hawk, a tall windscreen, and lowering pegs, I don't know what to think. Or, what to recommend.
I keep thinking of my now-departed Ducati ST2. That bike was stable. Not much wind or weather protection, but it was as stable as anything I have ridden...
The Ducati STs were THE SPORT-tourers. Fine motorcycles. I spent a lot of time on an ST2 and loved it. Later, I ended up with the next closest thing, the Guzzi V11 LeMans.
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Cannot speak for your issues with the Norge, but I've found my 2008 1200 Sport (essentially same bike with bikini fairing and somewhat more compliant suspension with 2v engine) to be a mile eater ............. WHEN ................ I swap out the stock saddle for the Corbin. I was fortunate to find a seller of a barely used Corbin that has 'Norge' printed in permanent marker on the underside seat pan. I keep the Corbin for traveling, preferring the stock saddle with its lovely color-matched cowl for around-town riding.
I also swapped out the stock foot pegs for some adjustable ones that allowed me to pivot them forward and slightly lower.
The stock bars on the Sport were painful, so a Mana bar helped loads. It's lower than your Norge bar, but higher and more to the rear than the stock torture rack!
As others have posted, it may be the full fairing on the Norge that is giving you the impression of instability, perhaps due to side winds or turbulence from 18 wheelers. I've always preferred small bikini style, or no fairing at all, even on road going machines.
Bob
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My Cali was unstable at high speed. Changeing direction gave it the shakes. Is that the kind of instability you are talking about? Heavier fork springs made all the difference but I don't understand why yours is the only Norge with a problem. Any cupping in the tread of the front tyre? Mine was worn that way and would not take fast bends over bumps without shaking the front end.
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All good points from other responders.
I'll avoid the saddle discussion because that's never been an issue for me on any motorcycle. Dead butt, I suppose. :laugh:
Seriously, at my age, I hurt most everywhere all the time, so I just grin & bear it as best I can ... and pour a finger or three that night. :boozing:
But -- so to speak -- wondering if you are speaking of buffeting while riding with a top case.
I rarely ride the slab, but have to admit that while I've always found my Norge to be a model of composure under all sort of conditions of roads, speeds, wind, traffic, etc., I do note some unpleasant experiences when on the slab at legal-plus speeds WHEN THE TOP CASE IS MOUNTED.
Off? Nada.
So, FWIW, there you go.
At risk of sounding -- but truly not meaning to be an asshat :rolleyes: -- have you considered a Goldwing?
Bill
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After the top box weaving comments, I guess I would suggest ditching the top box for the high speed commutes and see how it does.
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Something is not quite right. I have a 2011 8V. I am about 170lbs with gear and 5'10" and 32" inseam. Mine is totally stock but with the top box. I still am using the factory suspension settings. The only feelings of instability and I emphasis "feeling" over reality is in the wake of a semi truck or strong crosswinds. Otherwise the bike is rock solid and comfortable and I usually cruise in the 70-85mph range but have had it up to 140mph indicated with bags and trunk and it was rock solid, like I was doing 70. YMMV apparently.
GliderJohn
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[quote author=Bill Hagan link=topic=76876.msg1208962#msg1208962 date=143389158
So, FWIW, there you go.
At risk of sounding -- but truly not meaning to be an asshat :rolleyes: -- have you considered a Goldwing?
Bill
[/quote]
FWIW I have a Goldwing and didn't find it comfortable stock. First off there are no adjustments in the bars nor footpegs. The stock seat is big but soft and in a few hours it feels like you're sitting on the seatpan.
Changing the seat to one that is higher and further back helped a lot but this bike is still not as comfortable for me as my KLR with a flat seat. Body position is the key. The KLR is near perfect for me, the Goldwing, not so much. If it wasn't for the fact that it works best for my wife It would have down the road years ago.
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I wonder if your riding position and the position of the bars have an effect on the "stability".
I ask because I just made an almost round trip 300 mile ride on Saturday to and from a service for a friend that was the first time I'd done so (a distance over a local 100 miles) since replacing the bars on the Sportster last month.
What I found was that I love the new bars, but they are a little lower and wider and make me a little susceptible to a SLIGHT high speed (80mph-ish) that wasn't there before on with the otherwise exact same set-up but slightly higher bars with more pullback.
I'd previously noticed when testing these bars that the bike feels a little more nimble (because of more leverage), but also hit one bump mid-corner that gave me a slight wobble when there wasn't one before.
I diagnosed both conditions as ME putting too much pressure on the bars in those situations. Actually at high speed if I just took ONE hand off the bars, it pretty much stopped because I wasn't fighting myself it that makes any sense.
FWIW I had no problems with a luggage and/or topcase solo on a Breva, and didn't really ever have problems with turbulence weaving the bike...just full on cross-winds could send me across the lane.
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It would help to know what you are comparing it to.
A pure sport bike is the most stable in crosswinds and a naked std or sport is a close second. Just aerodynamics. You lean forward on these bikes for a smaller frontal cross section and there is nothing sticking up to act like a 'sail' or 'fin'. FWIW, my brother has a GS and 'fights' crosswinds and headwinds, even with an aftermarket larger windscreen.
Fully faired bikes do have places where they tend to 'wander' or 'wobble' when in the presence of truck turbulence or certain crosswinds. On mine I find that some pickup trucks create a more disturbing wake than semi's.
The tradeoff for a fully faired bike means you don't have to be blasted by the wind (or rain) all day. So, you trade a little 'wobble' at times for less buffeting the rest of the time. I like that tradeoff. Some do not.
Seats are another thing. If yours hurts, change it. Find one that is comfortable. On one of my earlier bikes I adapted a Gold Wing seat (back in the 80's). On my more recent Honda I had a Russell Day Long. That thing was more comfortable than my car. I modified my current one and it is OK. But, it needs another tweak to make it perfect. You should be able to sit on the seat all day without any more discomfort than sitting in your car all day.
If your bike is 'unstable' when running by yourself on an open, flat road, then I think you have a problem with your bike.
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At risk of sounding -- but truly not meaning to be an asshat :rolleyes: -- have you considered a Goldwing?
Bill
I bought my Goldwing in '12. I love it, and more importantly the wife loves it. She now suggests we go for a ride almost as often as I do. I did have a custom seat done and a few other farkles. It is surprisingly nimble for a 900+ pound bike. I still love my Guzzi and will always have one in the garage, but it has been retired from 2up rides. There is no bike out there that will be the best for everyone. All you can do is try to find one that does what you want it to do. What works for us might/does make others cringe and shake their heads.
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I would dump the thing and get a Cadillac.
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My 2014 Norge is lot of fun, but it is not very comfortable after 100 miles or so, and it is pretty unstable above 65 miles per hour
Sorry, but it is *not* the bike. The Norge is extremely stable at any speed I've seen. I'm guessing that you are holding on to the bars. At speed, they are only good as a place to hang the controls. The machine is stable unless you mess with it. Like an airplane, a *very* light touch is all that is required. A "death grip" will cause any motorcycle to move around as you are hit by wind gusts.
The riding position? Yes. The Norge locks you into one position. Occasionally raising out of the seat a little helps. I found that after around 450 miles, I had to stand up for a bit. <shrug>
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Dang Chuckie , how many auxiliary fuel tanks are on that Norge ?
Dusty
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Dang Chuckie , how many auxiliary fuel tanks are on that Norge ?
Dusty
It would go about 225 before refueling. Less than that when averaging 85 or so.. :evil: What I meant that was after 400 or so, I'd get antsy. At around 450 I'd have to stand up for a bit. Know what I mean? There's only one position on the Norge..
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Come on here, something is either way wrong with your bike, or somethings amiss with you. The Norge, like most all big block Guzzi are known for their stability at speed, the term "Locomotive power" sound familiar?
If your serious, have the bike looked and by a qualified Guzzi tech, or move on to something "more stable". :rolleyes:
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Any thoughts? Would the Stelvio be better, or the California 1400 Touring? Or perhaps a Road King, R 1200 RT, or Trophy SE?
Thanks!
Jeff, my 2012 Stelvio NTX is rock solid at any speed. I typically cruise at 75-80mph on the freeway and even in crosswinds it's very stable. I haven't ridden a Norge so I can't compare. I like the upright seating on the Stelvio. It handles superbly in the twisties, better than you think it has a right to. I did replace the seat with a Seth Lamm custom seat as after about 250 miles the stock seat would pinch my thighs a bit. I have a 30" inseam and can't flatfoot with both feet. It's only a concern if parked nose downhill as I can't push back. I try to avoid that situation and if I can't I just drag the bike back and then get on.
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I find my Norge is quite comfortable once I put on an Airhawk. I am 6-4, 34 inseam and it fits me fine, my only complaint was my ass going to sleep but once the cushion was installed I can go between fill-ups without any problems.
I ride a Beemer F650GS,the Norge and a Harley Electra Glide. The GS is the lightest and tallest at 375 lbs, 500+ and 800+ respectably. At highway use with the wind buffering, I find the heavier and shorter bikes to be more stable around cross winds and semis. The Harley plows through like a tank.
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Come on here, something is either way wrong with your bike, or somethings amiss with you. The Norge, like most all big block Guzzi are known for their stability at speed, the term "Locomotive power" sound familiar?
If your serious, have the bike looked and by a qualified Guzzi tech, or move on to something "more stable". :rolleyes:
Seriously. Too tight a grip on the bars translates into "instability". If you have "weight" on the bars, you are doing something wrong. The machine *wants* to be stable. Just the gentlest pressure is all that is required to keep it going in the direction you want.
I'm not preaching here.. well maybe a little.. but I feel it is important. If your arms are rigid, any buffeting from crosswinds, etc. translates to movement at the bars. This causes countersteering, that's for another thread.. :smiley: and perceived instability..
I mean absolutely no offense to the OP. Just think about it..and give relaxation a try.
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Jeff, what are you finding uncomfortable?
On my Breva I was good for the first 200 of the day, and started to cramp at the knees for the next 100-200.
I used an OEM gel seat (the lower one, not that I needed the height, so maybe that contributed to the leg cramps). The seat itself was comfy though and I doubt the taller one would help since my legs were basically locked in one position.
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Jeff, what are you finding uncomfortable?
On my Breva I was good for the first 200 of the day, and started to cramp at the knees for the next 100-200.
I used an OEM gel seat (the lower one, not that I needed the height, so maybe that contributed to the leg cramps). The seat itself was comfy though and I doubt the trailer one would help since my legs were basically locked in one position.
Yeah, that's the main problem with the Norge as far as comfort goes..
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Jeff, within the next 2 weeks I'll be running down through Portland coming from Seattle and down to CA so I'll be coasting past Hubbard, Or. If it works for you I can stop by and see if your Norge is going bonkers at speed. I'm about #30 less than you but same height, within an inch of inseam.
I'll be running a MG Norge gel seat and you can try it out to see if you think one might help your situation.
From your last I just had to go out and stand up on the thing, no way I could get out over the windscreen. Since you've had some service done lately, could it be that the monsters took off some of the plastics and didn't put them on right? If the fairing got tilted or something like that it could really mess with how it handles.
On that tail trunk, load it last and do not put really heavy items in it. That thing sits high and far back so just a bit too much weight or weight there but none in the side bags will make any bike wallow around. Also, side bags must be equally loaded. Putting stuff in one and not the other is a sure way to cause imbalance that you will fight the entire ride.
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Jeff, within the next 2 weeks I'll be running down through Portland coming from Seattle and down to CA so I'll be coasting past Hubbard, Or. If it works for you I can stop by and see if your Norge is going bonkers at speed. I'm about #30 less than you but same height, within an inch of inseam.
I'll be running a MG Norge gel seat and you can try it out to see if you think one might help your situation.
From your last I just had to go out and stand up on the thing, no way I could get out over the windscreen. Since you've had some service done lately, could it be that the monsters took off some of the plastics and didn't put them on right? If the fairing got tilted or something like that it could really mess with how it handles.
On that tail trunk, load it last and do not put really heavy items in it. That thing sits high and far back so just a bit too much weight or weight there but none in the side bags will make any bike wallow around. Also, side bags must be equally loaded. Putting stuff in one and not the other is a sure way to cause imbalance that you will fight the entire ride.
Yes! :1:
Bill
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I've never heard that kind of negative report on a Norge, and my (limited) experience with the bikes is quite the opposite as yours.
What is it about the Norge's seating that is uncomfortable? I found Norge to be touring-bike comfortable. In fact, too "touring" for my daily riding tastes...
I got nothing on the instability. Never heard that complaint. Didn't experience it when I've demo'd the bikes.
Sounds to me like an aftermarket seat and a larger windscreen would be worth trying, before trading it for something else.
Agreed. I would expect the Norge to be rock solid at 75 mph.
My 1200 Sport is the ultimate touring machine for me. Absolutely rock solid at 80 mph. I don't like full fairings and the small fairing on the Sport is perfect. Just takes enough wind off your chest.
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(snipped)
If your Norge is unstable at 70-80 which is a sweet spot for the Norge, something just has to be wrong in the setup.
(snipped)
I have to agree with this. My '12 Norge is rock solid at those speeds. Something must be set up wrong.
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Jeff,
I was about to post a discovery I have had with my Norge but it seems you have beat me to it. Although it is the same discovery the culprit is not the Norge. Let me explain.
Other than making sure the basics are set correctly (the factory has the numbers pretty much right on) front tire pressure 36 psi, rear 40 psi. 2 or three turns out for fork pre-load. 25 clicks rear pre-load.
Next thing is ditch the Agostini shield. The Agostini will work wonders if there is little or no wind, or if you are not running the highway and passing trucks. The Cal Sci is better but still not as stable as the stock shield in windy conditions. I rode around 450 miles this last Sunday with the Agostini. Left the house around 8AM duing still and clear conditions. Wind picked up in the afternoon and I had the worst 200 miles I ever had on the bike. The larger shield seemed to have less protection at speed than the stock shield, just plain strange.
Just installed the stock shield and there is no difference from 60 to 90 mph. Could have gone faster but id not want to get any performance awards.
I have a complete Matris setup waiting to go on. I believe the stock suspension a little stiff or insensitive to small bumps and I am hoping high quality suspension components to help the stability thing.
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While this is a MG site, you never the less might consider a Honda NT700V. Full fairing, locking hard panniers, at least 50 lbs lighter than the Norge, Adjustible wind screen, comfortable for long distances with addition of after market highway pegs, shaft drive, 50+ Mpg at 75 MPH and it runs like a Honda, even though its built in Spain by Montessa. The bike won't go 140, but just how often do you need that?
For a bike that's your primary transport, its worth a look.
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Good comments, everyone. Thanks!
I'll try it with the top case off and see how that affects things. I have also just reinstalled the stock windscreen. That may help, too.
I think the instability I'm feeling is due to the top case and all the traffic and wind swirling around me at that speed. At 90 or 100 mph, with no other vehicles in sight, my Norge is rock solid. Unfortunately, I can't ride like that very often. :wink:
And Norge Pilot, that would be great! We just sold our house in Lake Oswego and will be moving this week into an old farm house in Hubbard temporarily while we remodel the old cabin in Olympia...
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Sorry, but it is *not* the bike. The Norge is extremely stable at any speed I've seen. I'm guessing that you are holding on to the bars. At speed, they are only good as a place to hang the controls. The machine is stable unless you mess with it. Like an airplane, a *very* light touch is all that is required. A "death grip" will cause any motorcycle to move around as you are hit by wind gusts.
The riding position? Yes. The Norge locks you into one position. Occasionally raising out of the seat a little helps. I found that after around 450 miles, I had to stand up for a bit. <shrug>
Loose clothing and a tight grip on the bars is always good for an 80mph weave!
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I am 6' and 275 lbs. The Norge is very comfortable for me, I have done multiple IBA rides on it. I also have been amazed at how stable it is even at speeds well in to triple digits. My experience is that the bike actually feels more stable at 110 than it does at 95 (95 is very stable also).
It sounds to me like there are some problems with your Norge that you should have the dealer look at.
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My 2014 Norge is lot of fun, but it is not very comfortable after 100 miles or so, and it is pretty unstable above 65 miles per hour.
Thanks!
Sorry to burst in. I didn't read your full comment or the answers, so my reaction will certainly be biased.
I own and ride a Norge 8V for a number of years now, and I don't get your comments.
Bmw and other makes have wonderful bikes that will certainly meet your standards
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I had a Norge. Great bike. I never had any stability issues at any speed, ever. As Rocker and Kev mentioned, all that surface area did catch a lot in heavy cross winds, but it was nothing I couldn't deal with. As for comfort, I had done a lot to my Norge, Russell saddle, taller windshield, raised the bars a little. It was very comfortable, but as Peter pointed out, I was still locked into one riding position that eventually became intolerable. I traded that on a Stelvio. No regrets. I would do it again in a second. No doubt an aftermarket seat would be better, but the Stelvio has a decent seat from the factory, so I have not been compelled to change it. I have done a couple of 700+ days on that bike. Those were getting iffy. Done 600 mile days a number of times without issue.
John Henry
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I'm pretty happy with my Cali 1400 as a long distance ride. Doesn't offer the protection the Norge does but it works for me.
As far as other brands go my friend has a Kawasaki Concours 1400. Absolutely swears by it.
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I had a Norge. Great bike.
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It was very comfortable, but as Peter pointed out, I was still locked into one riding position that eventually became intolerable. I traded that on a Stelvio. No regrets.
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Done 600 mile days a number of times without issue.
So what is different about the Stelvio that doesn't lock you into one riding position, or is that position somehow less likely to produce knee cramping?
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Ditch the larger Agostini shield. My bike is all over the place in the slightest wind with this shield.
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Good comments, everyone. Thanks!
I'll try it with the top case off and see how that affects things. I have also just reinstalled the stock windscreen. That may help, too.
I think the instability I'm feeling is due to the top case and all the traffic and wind swirling around me at that speed. At 90 or 100 mph, with no other vehicles in sight, my Norge is rock solid. Unfortunately, I can't ride like that very often. :wink:
And Norge Pilot, that would be great! We just sold our house in Lake Oswego and will be moving this week into an old farm house in Hubbard temporarily while we remodel the old cabin in Olympia...
Sorry, I missed that you had a top box on it. I do not like them, Sam I am. :smiley: That is a really bad place to have any weight at all, not to mention the aerodynamics. That could definitely have a bearing..
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The section of freeway that you will be riding has alot of trucks. It does not matter much what I am riding or driving, I do not want to be around trucks. There does not seem to be an alternative route to Olympia without going way out of your way. My '08 Norge with the Cali Science windscreen is stable up to 100mph (I have not gone any faster). It loves 75 and 80mph.
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So what is different about the Stelvio that doesn't lock you into one riding position, or is that position somehow less likely to produce knee cramping?
Two different issues here. My Norge seat had a dip that made it difficult to slide back and change the orientation of my arms/knees/ass. That same dip put my knees into a slightly more bent position than I like but, more importantly, I found that after a few hours sitting with my knees in one position they did not want to support the weight of the bike when I stopped. I need to be able to move around on the seat.
If my inseam were less it might not be such a big deal. My riding buddy uses an Air Hawk on his Norge and does not have these problems but his inseam is also shorter.
Peter Y.
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The Norge was a little cramped for my tastes and I ditched the FJR for the same reasons. The stelvio was much better for long distance comfort. The seat is great, the range is long, wind protection is damn good, and I can stand on the pegs at any speed to help with leg cramps. I can ride the tank dry if I had to (300+ miles), but usually pull off 150 mile stints between breaks for sanity reasons.
I run the NTX without side cases most of the time due to how W-I-D-E it is. Some have ditched the racks and dropped some large bills on the euro cases which help considerably.
I usually use a small rear pack for daily riding: http://stelviontx.blogspot.com/2013/04/luggage-rack-bag-and-bobbins.html
I will add the topcase for more storage with our without side cases: http://stelviontx.blogspot.com/2013/07/revised-rear-rack-for-swm-topcase.html
For anyone over 5'2", I suggest a windshield extension or aftermarket shield: http://stelviontx.blogspot.com/2013/05/other-items-that-i-use-not-really-mods.html
The setup in the blog is my touring rig. I can go anywhere solo or two up for a week or more without issue. The most comfortable and stable touring rig to date for ~me~.
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I have the Guzzi top box and the stock shield is fine around trucks and any speed, not so with the Agostini.
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Good comments, everyone. Thanks!
I'll try it with the top case off and see how that affects things. I have also just reinstalled the stock windscreen. That may help, too.
I think the instability I'm feeling is due to the top case and all the traffic and wind swirling around me at that speed. At 90 or 100 mph, with no other vehicles in sight, my Norge is rock solid. Unfortunately, I can't ride like that very often. :wink:
And Norge Pilot, that would be great! We just sold our house in Lake Oswego and will be moving this week into an old farm house in Hubbard temporarily while we remodel the old cabin in Olympia...
I'm betting the instability issue can be resolved through a variety of ways, the comfort part as well within practical limits. Sure beats buying another bike if things work out.
After an hour or so of riding I stop and stretch. I get there just as quickly as the hard core riders who sit in the saddle for hours on end and probably have a better time doing it. Whats the hurry anyway?
I've found that the longer your reach to the bars the fewer options you have to move around in the seat. When I got my bars up an inch and back about the same it made all the difference. I could sit closer to the tank or scoot back on the stock Norge seat.
A really good helmet also makes a huge difference.
In the end, its a total package, rider, bike and gear that make for comfort. It can take some time to get it right but its worth the effort.
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It's not the top box. I often travel with a fairly big Guzzi/Givi box and even loaded up well past its 11LB limit, it poses no noticeable effect under 85 mph.
We are just busy pounding the old dead horse here.
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While this is a MG site, you never the less might consider a Honda NT700V. Full fairing, locking hard panniers, at least 50 lbs lighter than the Norge, Adjustible wind screen, comfortable for long distances with addition of after market highway pegs, shaft drive, 50+ Mpg at 75 MPH and it runs like a Honda, even though its built in Spain by Montessa. The bike won't go 140, but just how often do you need that?
For a bike that's your primary transport, its worth a look.
I had one for a few years and 28k miles. It reacted more to crosswinds and turbulence than my Goose. With a loaded trunk on it I could feel a slight weave at the 80-90 range (I did have a larger windshield on it).
It was a great all around bike and trouble free. I just didn't need two bikes that did the same thing. So, kept the Goose and sold the Honda. FWIW, a guy with an ST1300 bought it cause his new knees would not work with the ST any more.
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The Ducati STs were THE SPORT-tourers. Fine motorcycles. I spent a lot of time on an ST2 and loved it.
I passed on an opportunity to buy an immaculate ST3S for very little money. My butt is still bruised from kicking myself for walking away.
As to the OP's search, you may want to consider a Telelever-equipped BMW. Very stable, comfortable, reliable and capable bikes, despite what most folks on this board would want you to believe.
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One more bike to look at if it comes to that, a Suzuki Bandit 1200, the latest models. You can still find them with very low mileage replete with full fairing, side bags and top case. While known as a hooligan bike, from reports they excel at long distance jaunts. I've only ridden one once but the engine was amazing, smooth and power beyond wants.
They come with ABS, are liquid cooled but no shaft. Inexpensive way to go for a sport uber tourer.
They aren't being made anymore but I doubt parts or service would be an issue.
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My '02 CA EV is great on the freeway, but the old tailbone starts to hurt after 100 miles or so. But that's just the seat.
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I didn't mean to imply that I am completely unhappy with my Norge. I am not. On the contrary, I mostly love my Norge! I wash and admire it regularly, I ride it every day, rain or shine, I even think about it throughout the day. It is more than satisfying for the bulk of the riding that I do. I just wish it were more comfortable after two hours in the saddle and more stable at speed. Perhaps a new saddle would help. Perhaps reverting to the stock windscreen will help. (I swapped windscreens last night, but I have not yet ridden on the freeway--I will report back after I do).
If I ever were to change bikes, I would try to keep things in the family and look first at the Stelvio and the California Touring.
I guess I am just spoiled: until I traded in my boat of a car on my wife's new truck, I enjoyed a massaging, ventilated, and heated seat, supreme comfort and stability at very high speed, and an easy, relaxing run up to Olympia and back. Maybe I just need to get used to it!
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I own an '08 FJR1300. Its probably one of the best mile munchers that have a sporting side. I can do 7-800 mile days and still feel pretty fresh afterwards. When it rains or is cold, I raise the electric windscreen to completely eliminate wind blast on my body - 80-85 cruising is stupid easy and a quick flick of the wrist gets you in triple digits instantly. This bike barely buffets behind traffic like tractor trailers, making it great for my commute. Maintenance free shaft drive, great dealer network, Japanese reliability & engineering. Probably the best bike I have owned.
Oh, and my wife LOVES the passenger perch. I have a Givi 52 on the back and she has a ton of room to groove.
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Seriously. Too tight a grip on the bars translates into "instability". If you have "weight" on the bars, you are doing something wrong. The machine *wants* to be stable. Just the gentlest pressure is all that is required to keep it going in the direction you want.
I'm not preaching here.. well maybe a little.. but I feel it is important. If your arms are rigid, any buffeting from crosswinds, etc. translates to movement at the bars. This causes countersteering, that's for another thread.. :smiley: and perceived instability..
I mean absolutely no offense to the OP. Just think about it..and give relaxation a try.
All true. And my Norge was an older 2v, but like everyone else, it was stable as could be at any speed. I did have one bike though that would get pretty twitchy when I was being buffeted by semis, and that was my '07 Buell Ulysses. It took a little while to figure it out, but it was the buffeting on my arms that was giving input to the bars even with a light grip. The cure was to pull my elbows in close to my sides and the instability would go away instantly. Once I figured that out, I didn't worry about it any more because I knew there was nothing wrong with the bike.
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An AirHawk has cured muscle cramp in my butt. I think it is the pyriformis muscles that act up. Has added ten years to my riding life so far :grin:
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I have an '07, and always travel with side bags and a givi 52 liter topcase. Never felt/feels unstable, even in the "few" :wink: instances when I ignore legal speed limits. I do have Matris forks springs and Penske rear shocks/springs. Yes it locks you in one position, but it's never unstable.
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A bit of an update: Tonight I was able to ride some distance at 70 mph after reverting to the stock windscreen. Better! Windy, but more stable. The Agostini touring screen really does block the wind, but it also acts a bit like a sail.
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A bit of an update: Tonight I was able to ride some distance at 70 mph after reverting to the stock windscreen. Better! Windy, but more stable. The Agostini touring screen really does block the wind, but it also acts a bit like a sail.
Personally, I don't like tall windscreens and full fairings for exactly the reasons you mention. My current touring bike is a '08 1200 Sport. Bikini fairing REALLY works on that bike. Takes just enough wind off your chest but doesn't mess with the overall aerodynamics so much. Just right for me.
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^ I love the 1200 Sport! Too bad we can't get it in the U.S.
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You can't get it anywhere else either, unless you find a dealer with NOS.
It's been discontinued.
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^ Really? I'm looking at a 1200 Sport on Moto Guzzi's website. Is that a different bike?
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So what is different about the Stelvio that doesn't lock you into one riding position, or is that position somehow less likely to produce knee cramping?
The seat on the Stelvio is flat allowing for some movement. Further, I was able to put some additional pegs on the engine guards to give me some more latitude for movement. That, coupled with more seat to peg space to begin with makes it comfortable for me.
John Henry
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^ Really? I'm looking at a 1200 Sport on Moto Guzzi's website. Is that a different bike?
Discontinued in 2013.
Pete
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The seat on the Stelvio is flat allowing for some movement. Further, I was able to put some additional pegs on the engine guards to give me some more latitude for movement. That, coupled with more seat to peg space to begin with makes it comfortable for me.
John Henry
Was the Norge seat not flat? Man I seem to remember the B11 seat being pretty flat too... I don't recall having much room too move though. Maybe the key though is the additional pegs, THAT would have been enough to help solve the leg cramping for me, though I just can't see them on a B11... hmmm
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Was the Norge seat not flat? Man I seem to remember the B11 seat being pretty flat too... I don't recall having much room too move though. Maybe the key though is the additional pegs, THAT would have been enough to help solve the leg cramping for me, though I just can't see them on a B11... hmmm
More along the line of the shape of the seat and the body work. It kind of locks you into one position. Bad knees and a bad hip do not lend themselves well to that. Rigging up some pegs on a Norge becomes very Rube Goldberg unless you are willing to cut plastic, which I was not willing to do. I did come up with something that involved the Stucchi engine guard, but it really was not the best solution and I eventually removed the offending parts. I recall seeing a couple B11's that people had added some additional pegs to pretty easily. You didn't really notice them unless you looked. What I had tried stuck out like a sore thumb on the Norge.
John Henry
John Henry
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Cross winds caused me to remain below 80 between LA and Las Vegas through the open dessert. The culprit was my 40 liter trunk acting as a sail.
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get the California 1400
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I ride with a friend who has the Kawi concourse, he ditched a gs because the abs went and they wanted 3500 bucks to fix it. The concourse is a beautiful bike, shaft and all the creature comforts like heated grips , adjustable wind screen ect. He much prefers it over the bmw, it's very comfy and smooth running. and it goes like a raped ape. Granted he's a much better rider than I am but I have all I can do to stay with him on my griso, when we hit a straight he's gone. Would make a sweet touring rig.
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California is as comfortable a ride as you will find......
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Several things I have done to personalize my 12 Norge. The stock seat sucked for me, (pushed my junk into the tank) so I had one built by Sargent Seats. Goldwing foot pegs fit beautifully, and are much wider. Buffeting was a problem, so I bought a taller shield from the guys at MG Cycle, one that I can still see over. I did the handlebar riser thingy, by using the post from Norge Pilot. Now I have a very comfortable bike that I can ride all day, and do. These are some of the things that I have done to every bike (except the HI years ago) ....sort of personalize then to my style.
I have never at any time had any issues with handling at any speed. My Norge seems to cruise at the 75-80 mph mark, with no issues whatsoever.
Tim
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Tim,
It looks like you have the same touring screen that I do (the Agostini version)! Do you have a top case, too?
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Yes Jeff I think it is. It's the one from MG Cycle.
Absolutely no buffering at highway speeds. I'm 5'-11" with a 31 inseam.
I do have a top case ....one of the give's, and need to post some pics here.
Tim
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Out of all the MC's I have owned including a Norge and 05 FJR1300, GWings, BMW's both sporting and tour type, and too many HD's, nothing works as well for me as my current 2012 Victory Cross Country Tour for the features and benefits you are looking for. Handling, Comfort, Storage AND Reliability...
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Out of all the MC's I have owned including a Norge and 05 FJR1300, GWings, BMW's both sporting and tour type, and too many HD's, nothing works as well for me as my current 2012 Victory Cross Country Tour for the features and benefits you are looking for. Handling, Comfort, Storage AND Reliability...
Isn't that almost 300 lbs heavier than a Norge? Beautiful bike...saw two Victorys a couple years ago in Montana in Black and White...large windscreens. The guys riding them said they could ride all day, no buffeting, no noise, they weren't even wearing ear plugs. I'm guessing that being wrapped in that cocoon and bubble, things are a lot quieter than on the Norge, which looked like a mini scooter sitting next to the Victorys!
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Isn't that almost 300 lbs heavier than a Norge?
Approx 251# (868 vs. 617) for wet numbers. Though it gets closer if you've added stuff to the Norge, like a topcase.
Also, keep in mind the Norge carries the weight a little higher, so it might not feel like as big a difference as it is.
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My Norge is so unstable and uncomfortable, I can only ride it 35,000 miles a year. :grin:
And I used to sell Victory bikes (along with Indian, MG, Aprilia, others) - they and Indian are may favorites among cruisers (after the Cali 1400), but I wouldn't hold them up as paragons for handling. Stability, yes - but then again, a 1964 Sedan de Ville is stable too (once you fix the steering).
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I bought my Goldwing in '12. I love it, and more importantly the wife loves it. She now suggests we go for a ride almost as often as I do. I did have a custom seat done and a few other farkles. It is surprisingly nimble for a 900+ pound bike.
I have a 4" taller x 2" wider windshield on a Wing and on a windy day the side blasts will get you. The guys behind me are amazed how it will blow around in the lane. I have a Traxxion suspension pkg so I'm not baby buggy spongy. Wind hitting from the sides/angles will toss you about.
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My two cents...FWIW
I'm 5'11" and 210 for reference. Recently bought a Stelvio NTX to replace a MultiStrada 1200. The Stelvio is rock solid at speeds up to 90 MPH Havent gone any faster than that so far) and as long we you replace the remarkably terrible stock windshield, it pushes through the wind quite nicely. I have the CalSci medium windshield, which is great! The stock seat is quite comfortable as well.
It's worth a look/ride. Good luck!
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What year Norge do you have?
I purchased a 2014 Norge about 6 weeks ago and I have been making suspension tweaks to fit my weight and riding style. What I didn't like about the stock setup was the huge amount of fork dive while braking and also the bike felt like the steering was sluggish (slow turn in), the bike also kicked me off the saddle a few times on big dips in the road and when hitting pot holed roads in California, the bike seemed like it had no suspension (meaning stiff).
I checked the owners manual and set the bike's front suspension preload and the rear shocks rebound and spring preload, yes, it was way off from the dealer. Rode it for a few hundred miles, still had too much fork dive and the rear suspension would kick me off the saddle. Talked to Todd at Guzzi Tech, he suggested the Matris fork kit and also a rear shock replacement. Whoa, I just purchased a new bike and I did not want to dump a bunch of money into a new bike, so I just went with the Matris fork kit fitted for my weight (220 with leathers/helmet/boots). Road it for another hundred miles, still had too much fork dive in my opinion. The front brake was to me, an on off switch, just a tap of the front brake lever sent the front end diving. So hard to be smooth! I went the next cheaper way and replaced the front brake pads as the stock pads were the Brembo HH compound pads, while much better at modulation, there was still a noticeable front end dive in needed fast stops. Next I tried going up in fork oil wt, went from the recommended oil that Matris called for (10 wt. to 15wt), now it feels much better. Better meaning that it still could be better. I checked the bikes rear suspension sag and ended up adjusting the rear shock spring load to max to achieve 1 1/4" rear sag. I also slid the front forks up about 10mm. to quicken the steering.
I just rode the bike over the weekend 500 miles to the Nevada Campout up Highway 4 and what a difference. The bike feels balanced front to rear, yes, it still has a little too much fork dive in my taste, but we went the right direction. I was never kicked off the seat, there were some major steep road sections that quickly went up and I could feel the bike's suspension compress to it's stops with out due effect.
The bike has always been stable at speed, and I did hit 110 mph on the way home, so I'm really enjoying the bike! Next I'm thinking I will try the Racetech Emulators in the front forks to see if I can get rid of the fork dive that still throws the steering angle off way to much while braking hard into a turn. I know, I'm just trying to get this bike to handle as well as my 03 Rosso Corsa with Ohlin's suspension.
And yes, this bike gets blown around in wind, by huge trucks, in a head wind there is some major buffering, I'm thinking of cutting down the front wind screen as the wind hits my shoulders which places inputs to the handlebars, just my thinking!
Mike
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go Greyhound
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go Greyhound
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Tried that once , the poor little buggers are fast , but the saddle kept coming loose :grin:
Dusty
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2007 Norge 1200 - new to me this season. I find the bike is very stable at any speed - top box and all. I'm 5'7"/160 and fit the bike well. Only one long day (1100km) so far - was bagged when got to bed after 1 AM - that wasn't the bike's problem but the 40C and then 5 hours of heavy rain. Much better than the BMW K1100RS I rode for 100K.
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My Norge is so unstable and uncomfortable, I can only ride it 35,000 miles a year. :grin:
And I used to sell Victory bikes (along with Indian, MG, Aprilia, others) - they and Indian are may favorites among cruisers (after the Cali 1400), but I wouldn't hold them up as paragons for handling. Stability, yes - but then again, a 1964 Sedan de Ville is stable too (once you fix the steering).
35,000 miles a year!?!
How many miles do you have on it total?
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35,000 miles a year!?!
How many miles do you have on it total?
Right now, about 100,000 - but 2014 was a bad year, only managed about 10,000 that year. Peak year was 38,000, most years it's somewhat less. I got it new (old stock) in mid-2011, and starting in 2012 began using it as my Iron Butt long distance bike. By December, I should have another 6-10,000 on it, depending on how much time I can get away from work. Should get my average back up!
Somebody told me Moto Guzzis were reliable... :rolleyes:
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Right now, about 100,000 - but 2014 was a bad year, only managed about 10,000 that year. Peak year was 38,000, most years it's somewhat less. I got it new (old stock) in mid-2011, and starting in 2012 began using it as my Iron Butt long distance bike. By December, I should have another 6-10,000 on it, depending on how much time I can get away from work. Should get my average back up!
Somebody told me Moto Guzzis were reliable... :rolleyes:
Impressive!
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Greetings!
My 2014 Norge is lot of fun, but it is not very comfortable after 100 miles or so, and it is pretty unstable above 65 miles per hour. I would like a motorcycle that is comfortable for three hours at a stretch (at least 150 miles) and is rock solid on the freeway at 75 miles per hour. Unfortunately, my Norge is neither. It is great around town and on back roads, and it is comfortable enough for shorter distances, but it is exhausting and painful to ride more than 100 miles at a stretch, and it is surprisingly unstable at 70 to 80 miles per hour. (Strangely, it becomes stable again at 90 miles per hour!)
The cockpit is frankly just too cramped for me. I am 5' 10" tall, with a 31 inch inseam, and a little under 200 pounds sans gear. And the winds and turbulence on the freeway at 75 miles per hour bounce me all over my lane.
I no longer have an automobile, so I am relying upon my Norge as my daily driver. (My wife has a new truck for when my Moto Guzzi is in the shop!) I need to be able to ride in comfort at high speed for three hours at a stretch, in the dark and in the rain. I also need hard, locking panniers.
Any thoughts? Would the Stelvio be better, or the California 1400 Touring? Or perhaps a Road King, R 1200 RT, or Trophy SE?
Thanks!
I am about the same size as you. I added a California Scientific windshield (medium I think) which greatly reduced buffeting and lowered the foot pegs which greatly reduced leg cramping and I am quite happy with the results. The Moto Guzzi gel seat is also a worthwhile upgrade.
Regarding your stability concerns . . . I have never had any problems at high speed.
I previously rode a Stelvio (2009 and 2012), which would give you more leg room, and it is slightly more stable at high speed due to wider bars and more weight.
Check with the dealer and see if your suspension is set up properly.