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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: JeffOlson on August 13, 2015, 11:20:45 PM

Title: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: JeffOlson on August 13, 2015, 11:20:45 PM
I have a meeting in Olympia tomorrow morning, so I rode my Norge (MG content) to our beach cabin this evening and left my wife behind on the farm in Hubbard. She decided to go for a bicycle ride tonight by herself on Whiskey Hill Road. (Yes, that is a real road near our road, Painter Loop!)

As she rode by a man locking his gate for the night, he greeted her and said, "Ma'am, do you have a gun?" He told her about a colt on Painter Loop being attacked today by a mountain lion. (We heard about the mountain lion yesterday.) She said no, but he had his sidearm with him and offered to follow her home in his truck.

As they neared our farm house, a number of deer bolted across the road in front of them, from one field to another, like their lives depended on it.

My wife made it home safely and got our animals inside. She is from Texas, where everyone has a gun, and she has been pestering me to get her one. I think it is about high time that I get her a shot gun...
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: normzone on August 14, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
Does she know how to shoot?

No slur on you, sir, or any of our brothers, but I teach all my women to shoot.

If she's worthy of you, she's worthy of the training.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: tris on August 14, 2015, 01:19:46 AM

I hesitate to have an opinion about weapons living where I live in the UK but it strikes me that a shotgun isn't the most suitable weapon to carry on a push bike  :undecided:
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: rodekyll on August 14, 2015, 03:04:31 AM
Although  I agree that a shotgun will take care of that business best (especially in an area with neighbors and the possibility of night shooting), you might want to ask her what she thinks makes the most sense and include her in the purchase so you get the pump, auto, or sxs that she'll want to shoot.  She might surprise you and want a handgun instead . . .
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Gliderjohn on August 14, 2015, 06:17:52 AM
In just the last couple of years has the state of Kansas officially confirmed mountain lions in Kansas. It was three or four years ago when my wife had a face to face encounter with one from only about 50' in our rural back yard when she was watering. Our dog scared it off. They have big feet!
(http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/jpeters16/DSCN0244.jpg) (http://s710.photobucket.com/user/jpeters16/media/DSCN0244.jpg.html)

GliderJohn
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: sib on August 14, 2015, 06:53:52 AM
I would think that with all those deer to choose from, the big cat would have better things to go for than people.  Mountain lions have lived near people for a long time in CA and other western states, without much friction.  Yes, once in a great while a cat attacks a mountain biker.  But (sorry to sound politically leftish here), if everyone packed a gun, there would be more accidental shootings than there are mountain lion attacks.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Delta425 on August 14, 2015, 07:20:07 AM
[quote  She is from Texas, where everyone has a gun, and she has been pestering me to get her one. I think it is about high time that I get her a shot gun...
[/quote]
Actually, Texas is 30th in the percentage of gun ownership by state with about 35% of Texans owning guns. And, I know, "well, that's just the guns they  know about in Texas". Well,don't you think that's true of EVERY state.
Oh, and no, Texas isn't the only state with the right to secede.
And, no, Texas does NOT have any different flag protocol from any of the other 49.
And, if things are "bigger" in texas, they are 2.5 times bigger in Alaska.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Delta425 on August 14, 2015, 07:24:27 AM
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general-firearm-discussion/9841-percent-firearms-ownership-state.html
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Silver Goose on August 14, 2015, 07:32:57 AM
Jeff, the suggestion of letting your wife decide what and if she wants to carry is a good one. Many people do not want to be pushed in to owing and/or carrying a weapon.

Mountain Lions are much better hunters than a new gun owner is. Get some training, and practice,practice and practice until your actions are automatic.

Good Luck, be safe
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: flip on August 14, 2015, 07:40:45 AM
It sounds like you have a good neighbor.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 08:45:01 AM
Jeff, the suggestion of letting your wife decide what and if she wants to carry is a good one. Many people do not want to be pushed in to owing and/or carrying a weapon.

A situation in which you might need a gun is a very low probability, very high consequence event in a normal person's life.    Therefore, many people decide not to carry one because of the low probability, preferring to take the consequences IF they happen.   That's a perfectly reasonable outlook, akin to deciding to not surround yourself with an airbag-equipped Volvo when you take to the highway and ride a motorcycle instead.

In my experience, carrying a gun is a very low maintenance, very low impact job.   Doesn't cost a thing except initial training and purchase, and occasional practice ammo.    FOR ME, it's an easy decision.   FOR OTHERS, apparently the presence of a gun on their own person preys on their mind, worries them somehow, causes them trouble, and so they decide to not do it.   I understand that; a cell phone does the same thing to me - for some, it's a useful tool, for me, it's an electronic leash and worry-beads ....

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: toaster404 on August 14, 2015, 08:51:47 AM
I suspect that a real attack from an adult lion wouldn't allow time to use a gun.  They are very very fast and powerful.  I can't imagine being able to do much except against an unsure juvenile.   
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: drw916 on August 14, 2015, 09:02:10 AM
Now there is motivation to put in the training for some sprints
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: tpeever on August 14, 2015, 09:06:04 AM
I suspect that a real attack from an adult lion wouldn't allow time to use a gun.  They are very very fast and powerful.  I can't imagine being able to do much except against an unsure juvenile.

Agreed. For most of the deadly human/cougar encounters I have heard about (also EXTREMELY rare as pointed out above) a gun would be not be helpful. Happens way too fast.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 09:07:11 AM
... but not sure how effective a gun is in a truly tight spot , like I said , those large felines are FAST .

  Dusty

Not sure it would be 100% effective, but probably more effective than speed-dialing Madge and asking her to Google "Puma" to see what to do ....

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Guzzistajohn on August 14, 2015, 09:08:48 AM
In just the last couple of years has the state of Kansas officially confirmed mountain lions in Kansas. It was three or four years ago when my wife had a face to face encounter with one from only about 50' in our rural back yard when she was watering. Our dog scared it off. They have big feet!
(http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/jpeters16/DSCN0244.jpg) (http://s710.photobucket.com/user/jpeters16/media/DSCN0244.jpg.html)

GliderJohn

Mountain lions in Kansas? No way! These pics were taken last week at Stockton Lake, Mo. (about 30 miles north of Springfield)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/Mountian%20lion_zpsrdvjofue.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/guzzistajohn/media/Mountian%20lion_zpsrdvjofue.jpg.html)
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: tpeever on August 14, 2015, 09:09:16 AM
Not sure it would be 100% effective, but probably more effective than speed-dialing Madge and asking her to Google "Puma" to see what to do ....

Lannis

Only if the cat missed you the first time...........
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: LowRyter on August 14, 2015, 09:49:50 AM
a shotgun is the perfect weapon for home protection not practical on a bicycle.  However, I am not sure any gun is practical to carry on a bike; one way or another it's liable to hurt you if you fall off. 
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Moto on August 14, 2015, 09:52:18 AM
... our road, Painter Loop! ...

Can't say you weren't warned!  :laugh:
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: redrider on August 14, 2015, 10:02:59 AM
Good discussion. A cat in attack mode already has the advantage but I still lawfully carry while walking the dog in the 'burbs. So far nothing but fox, opossum and coon make a regular appearance. Coyote packs are in the boonies past Irmo and I had a huge one flush in front of me while riding the V11 in the northeast part of Columbia. I am more concerned with the two legged ambusher.

Bersa BP9cc or Bond Arms .410/.45 fit in a pocket or IWB really well and with the right placement, do not print. Not wanting to spook the neighbors carrying a long gun, I opt for a sword cane. :popcorn:
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: oldbike54 on August 14, 2015, 10:03:08 AM
Can't say you weren't warned!  :laugh:

 Yeah , us painters are an EXTREMELY dangerous lot  :laugh:

  Dusty
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: JeffOlson on August 14, 2015, 10:07:16 AM
I imagine the owner of the colt and the colt's mother that was also injured while defending the colt will take matters into his own hands. No need to call the authorities--oh, wait, there are no authorities where we live!
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: oldbike54 on August 14, 2015, 10:24:24 AM
I imagine the owner of the colt and the colt's mother that was also injured while defending the colt will take matters into his own hands. No need to call the authorities--oh, wait, there are no authorities where we live!

 I'm guessing the cat may have received a lick or two from the momma horse  :laugh: Years back I suffered through a ferocious attack from a Banty Hen who was sitting eggs under an out building that I deigned to walk too near . Damn , she was serious , REAL SERIOUS . Never knew such a small bird could strike so much fear into a human , WOW !

  Dusty
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: JeffOlson on August 14, 2015, 10:30:52 AM
^ Yep! Mothers can be very ferocious when they are protecting their young. I've seen it in my wife!
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: cruzziguzzi on August 14, 2015, 11:20:52 AM
The bitch of women defending themselves from cat attacks in the Americas (more common than most folk would think) is that they are almost always from behind and of the utmost stealth. Doesn't mean being armed is useless just worth noting that the fear and adrenaline are peaked by the time a gal'll know she's in peril.

For my gal - she gets a little 5 shot Taurus with two snake shot rounds up front.

Todd.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Tkelly on August 14, 2015, 11:22:11 AM
How about bear spray?
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: rodekyll on August 14, 2015, 11:45:30 AM
The best protection (based on how we do it here) is either a slower companion or a dog and a .22.
    :shocked:

Seriously though -- a dog for warning and distraction compliments the shotgun pretty well.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: brenwin on August 14, 2015, 11:47:00 AM
Plenty of cougars here on Vancouver Island . I've been here a longtime and never seen one . They are close by though and every once and a while we'll find a headless deer carcass in the bush beside our house which is typical of a cougar kill . There were times our dog would not take our usual route on our daily walk . He knew something was a foot . I always took his advice and went the other way .
Logging displaces a lot of cats here and they are territorial so prey on whatever they can find . Usually they are in a weakened state and that's when pets and people are in jeopardy .   
I'm sure I've been followed in the bush without even knowing it . If they wanted to attack you wouldn't see it coming .
We have a new neighbor who just moved here from Alberta , retired park ranger who will be giving instruction on what to do in case of an encounter . I'm looking forward to his input .
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on August 14, 2015, 11:54:27 AM
I hesitate to have an opinion about weapons living where I live in the UK but it strikes me that a shotgun isn't the most suitable weapon to carry on a push bike  :undecided:

I agree... how bout The Judge instead?


But fact of the matter is if you are riding a bike, a Mtn lion isn't going to grab you..

Most MTBers attacked are crouched down, fixing a flat or replacing a thrown chain.. the cat stalks up behind... and no you don't hear it coming

(http://www.deertrackingcameras.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/deaddeer.jpg)
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: JeffOlson on August 14, 2015, 11:57:25 AM
It is a bit unnerving. I just learned that the horse attack occurred across the street from our house! Not in the woods, not in the bushes, but out in the open in a large riding arena! Good thing we have large dogs and armed neighbors.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: normzone on August 14, 2015, 12:17:18 PM
I've had one big cat encounter in the Cuyamaca mountains, nearly thirty years ago.

I was on horseback, going at a quick trot through a bunch of pines, when I heard a crashing in the branches. I looked around to see a young BIG cat in the top of a forty foot tree, making his way down as fast as he could, using the branches like a circular stair case.

He was trying to make it look like a controlled descent, but it was really more like a continuous fall with a series of saving throws.

My horse appeared not to notice, and despite my saddlebag pistol I figured my most effective weapon was my spurs, so we just continued our trot and put some distance between him and us.

I've told this story to many people, and about half of them tell me that big cats don't climb trees. I can think of no reason for the cat to be up there either, but apparently he didn't get the email.

Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 12:27:26 PM
Well , and that is the point some of us are making . Weapons often times make humans act brazenly .
  Dusty

Yes.   And if you feel that you are the sort of person that will act "brazenly" because you are armed, it's very good judgment on your part to NOT be armed, and depend on grinning and wagging your tail.

Those of us who do NOT ride like idiots when we put on ATGATT, or who do NOT get aggressive when armed, are the ones who make those decisions in the other direction.

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Gliderjohn on August 14, 2015, 12:47:34 PM
Quote from oldbike54:
Quote
About the dog thing , well, big cats will kill and eat wolves AND dogs , apparently dogs are attractive to large felines . Probably would not rely on them for much more than a warning . Unless you own a 300 lb Rat Terrier

Most preying animals are always measuring gain against loss. In my wife's experience the dog helped because the lion didn't have the advantage and apparently not desperately hungry so it ran instead. The incident took place during the height of severe drought. I had been pumping water into our small pond right off our backyard so it was one of just a few spots animals could find water at that time and it appears that was what the lion was most interested in.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 12:50:03 PM
Actually , having carried a gun in some pretty tight spots , they make me more cautious . Just making the point that hubris can be a dangerous thing . As several here have pointed out , in the particular situation involving large cats , they are very sneaky , you will probably not hear the attack. So carrying a gun for protection against a Puma might give one a false sense of security . Kind of like taking a gun to a tank fight  :laugh: Really , I just want Jeff's wife to be safe is all .

  Dusty
 

All true; and if the 20 people killed in 125 years is accurate, probably like worrying about getting hit by a meteorite.   On the other hand, I'm sure that continuing encroachment of humans on cat habitat, and vice versa, will make the problem worse.

And I'd rather take a gun to a tank fight than take a rubber spatula or something .... !

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: screamday on August 14, 2015, 01:16:27 PM
I'm thinking "Flamethrower".  :boozing:  :boozing:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/13/smallbusiness/flamethrowers-public-sale/ (http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/13/smallbusiness/flamethrowers-public-sale/)
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: brenwin on August 14, 2015, 01:20:23 PM
  Some research indicates that there have been 20 fatal to humans Cougar attacks in Canada and the US since 1890 , although there has been a very slight spike recently . About the dog thing , well, big cats will kill and eat wolves AND dogs , apparently dogs are attractive to large felines . Probably would not rely on them for much more than a warning . Unless you own a 300 lb Rat Terrier  :huh:

  Dusty

Lots of hunters here use coon hounds who tree the cats then shot them . Big cats will climb trees here in a heart beat and they run like hell from the hounds unless cornered then look out !
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: normzone on August 14, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
We had a bicyclist stand off a big cat here back around the turn of the century.

He was stopped to work on the bike and saw the cat coming. He put the bike between him and the cat and used his pump (pumps were still full size back then) as a whip.

When the cat would attempt to come around the bike and attack from a different angle, he'd just reposition the bike and whip the cat again.

After several rounds of this the cat grew weary of the game and retreated.

We had another woman on horseback meet a couple of cats in our mountains, and when she walked her horse directly at one of the cats it didn't flinch or back off.

She went back to her camp and loaded her horse in the trailer with the cats watching the entire time. Fish and Game went out and shot those two.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: brenwin on August 14, 2015, 01:39:01 PM
True , but lots of dogs get maimed and killed in the process . The true story of "Where the red fern grows" happened just 25 miles East of me . A true cautionary tale of a close encounter between a champion hunting dog and a Cougar .

  Dusty

Seems the plural approach works pretty good here . Hunters usually have at least 3 or 4 dogs on a hunt . Spooks the hell out of the cats . Once treed its an easy kill . I've heard of a few dogs here who got too close and had to be put down due to mortal wounds .
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 01:45:57 PM

 Lannis , the idea is to AVOID the confrontation with a tank , at least until one owns their own bigger tank . Man is no match for a truly dedicated large cat , with or W/O a gun ,
  Dusty

Yebbut, how am I supposed to avoid them if I'm out walking or working or hiking or biking?    If a cat attacks me, it won't be because I was chasing it up a tree or crawling into its den .... I'll just be walking along minding my own business, not wanting a confrontation with a huge cat.

The CAT will be the one who decides on the where and when of the confrontation .... How am I supposed to avoid that?

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: oldbike54 on August 14, 2015, 01:48:54 PM
Seems the plural approach works pretty good here . Hunters usually have at least 3 or 4 dogs on a hunt . Spooks the hell out of the cats . Once treed its an easy kill . I've heard of a few dogs here who got too close and had to be put down due to mortal wounds .

 There were two 90 lb hunting dogs involved in the Red Fern saga , and the male basically gave up his life to save the female and the boy that he was attached to . We still have a few Pumas along the Illinois river in the Ozark plateau near Tahlequah , they don't seem to bother anyone much due to ample game and water . Once , while camped out on the river we did hear one howling , kind of sounded like a baby crying . Eerie , but no threat .

  Dusty
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: oldbike54 on August 14, 2015, 01:59:17 PM
Yebbut, how am I supposed to avoid them if I'm out walking or working or hiking or biking?    If a cat attacks me, it won't be because I was chasing it up a tree or crawling into its den .... I'll just be walking along minding my own business, not wanting a confrontation with a huge cat.

The CAT will be the one who decides on the where and when of the confrontation .... How am I supposed to avoid that?

Lannis

 I have read that all creatures , with the exception of elephants , rhinos , large snakes , and those big toothy denizens of the shallow waters , are all afraid of Lions . Apparently , rubbing Lion poop on one's self will deter attacks from something like a Puma . You might try that , dunno .

  Dusty
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Stormtruck2 on August 14, 2015, 02:09:54 PM
A weapon is simply a tool.  How the tool is utilized is key in the effectiveness of the outcome.  Yes, if you are attacked by a cougar, mountain lion, puma, or God forbid all three,  :wink:  you will most likely be taken off guard.  What good is a side arm at that point? Very good. If a large cat is on you, placing of the muzzle of the weapon anywhere in contact with the predators body, and firing will effectively alter the animal's thought process, and adjust their attitude.  Will a weapon on you prevent an attack?  Most likey not. But during an attack it is much more effective than whispering sweet nothings in the cats ear. 
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 02:21:59 PM
A weapon is simply a tool.  How the tool is utilized is key in the effectiveness of the outcome.  Yes, if you are attacked by a cougar, mountain lion, puma, or God forbid all three,  :wink:  you will most likely be taken off guard.  What good is a side arm at that point? Very good. If a large cat is on you, placing of the muzzle of the weapon anywhere in contact with the predators body, and firing will effectively alter the animal's thought process, and adjust their attitude.  Will a weapon on you prevent an attack?  Most likey not. But during an attack it is much more effective than whispering sweet nothings in the cats ear.

Besides that, if I'm out hiking in cat country, there are lots of other things that I might want to prepare for.   Rabid mammals of any types, human predators, bears, feral dogs, coyotes .... I'm not just heeled for "cats".

Again, the probability is low and many people choose to not be prepared, but it's no-cost insurance "just in case" you're THAT guy ...

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: nick949 on August 14, 2015, 02:25:09 PM
If you're a real man, you just need a pen knife.............

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/wildlife-nature/articles/pdfs/cougar-cougar-attack.pdf (http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/wildlife-nature/articles/pdfs/cougar-cougar-attack.pdf)

Nick
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 02:33:34 PM
If you're a real man, you just need a pen knife.............

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/wildlife-nature/articles/pdfs/cougar-cougar-attack.pdf (http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/wildlife-nature/articles/pdfs/cougar-cougar-attack.pdf)

Nick

Wow!  Cougar attacks thwarted with a 4" pocket folding knife, being beaten with a lunch pail, and hammered with a bicycle.

And folks are telling us that there's no use carrying a gun because the cougar is too hard to beat?    I'll go with the guys who have BTDT, thanks ...

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: nick949 on August 14, 2015, 02:38:14 PM
Wow!  Cougar attacks thwarted with a 4" pocket folding knife, being beaten with a lunch pail, and hammered with a bicycle.

And folks are telling us that there's no use carrying a gun because the cougar is too hard to beat?    I'll go with the guys who have BTDT, thanks ...

Lannis

Pocket knife yes.............but he was pretty badly mauled first, and darn lucky.  This is one of the few times when I think a whacking great hand-cannon would have been rather handy - but the price is too high and the risk too low.

Nick
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: oldbike54 on August 14, 2015, 02:40:29 PM
 Uh , 'Truck , you are much larger than me , and might be able to withstand that first onslaught from a big cat , or three . However , having had my ass kicked by a couple of regular old garden variety house cats , pretty sure that first good swat from a 250 lb kitty would render me unable to do much more than whimper and hope it ends quickly  :laugh: Heck , have you seen the videos of a precious little white tail kicking the poo out of some Bubba dumb enough to start trouble with it ? And they are what those large felines snack on at brunch  :huh: :laugh:

  Dusty
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 02:45:16 PM
Pocket knife yes.............but he was pretty badly mauled first, and darn lucky.  This is one of the few times when I think a whacking great hand-cannon would have been rather handy - but the price is too high and the risk too low.

Nick

"Price too high" is a relative thing, I guess ... they only cost about what a pair of tires do, and they last a lifetime .....

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: nick949 on August 14, 2015, 02:48:12 PM
"Price too high" is a relative thing, I guess ... they only cost about what a pair of tires do, and they last a lifetime .....

Lannis

It's a cultural thing Lannis: it's a price I'm not interested in paying.  But, each to his own.

N
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: JeffOlson on August 14, 2015, 02:56:05 PM
I should have mentioned, there are also coyotes all over the place where we live. There always seems to be more than one, and they roam through the fields at night. I haven't been too concerned about them. My wife and I ride our bicycles or Vespas around in the evening and see them running in the fields. I also have been taking our dogs out into the field behind our house at night before kenneling them for the night. I guess I need to rethink all of this...

And here I thought we were escaping danger by moving from the violence and crime of city life to the peace and serenity of country life!

Still, I am sure our neighbors will take matters into their own hands. Farmers and ranchers know how to git her done, and they aren't about to wait for state workers to come by and handle the situation. Not too long ago, a stranger came onto our road, Painter Loop, and he was checking things out. A few minutes of this and the menfolk got together and confronted him. He left in a hurry...
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Stormtruck2 on August 14, 2015, 03:01:35 PM
Uh , 'Truck , you are much larger than me , and might be able to withstand that first onslaught from a big cat , or three . However , having had my ass kicked by a couple of regular old garden variety house cats , pretty sure that first good swat from a 250 lb kitty would render me unable to do much more than whimper and hope it ends quickly  :laugh: Heck , have you seen the videos of a precious little white tail kicking the poo out of some Bubba dumb enough to start trouble with it ? And they are what those large felines snack on at brunch  :huh: :laugh:

  Dusty

But as long as you can fight, you will.  While you're fighting, you need all the help you can get. If he kills you instantly, well, sucks to be you.  If he doesn't, the fight is on.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 04:11:58 PM
I should have mentioned, there are also coyotes all over the place where we live. There always seems to be more than one, and they roam through the fields at night. I haven't been too concerned about them. My wife and I ride our bicycles or Vespas around in the evening and see them running in the fields. I also have been taking our dogs out into the field behind our house at night before kenneling them for the night. I guess I need to rethink all of this...



Summer before last, Fay was walking with Jack in a park in Denver (Lone Tree, actually) along a creek bottom.    A female coyote came out of her den and started an assault on the two.   Jack would run her back toward her den, but as soon as he turned around to come back to Fay, the coyote would come toward them again, he'd run her back, until Fay had backed off far enough where she didn't come out.

I doubt seriously whether one of our scrawny Eastern coyotes would try to tackle Jack, especially on Jack's territory where he don't give trail to no critter, but a pack would be different ...  Fay and I have always carried a small pistol when out hiking, but we've upgraded recently, and she's added a Crimson Trace to her Smith 442 that I'm sighting in .....

Any animal will attack ... just needs a reason (hydrophobia, hunger, young to protect ....)

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: nick949 on August 14, 2015, 04:45:05 PM
Summer before last, Fay was walking with Jack in a park in Denver (Lone Tree, actually) along a creek bottom.    A female coyote came out of her den and started an assault on the two.   Jack would run her back toward her den, but as soon as he turned around to come back to Fay, the coyote would come toward them again, he'd run her back, until Fay had backed off far enough where she didn't come out.

I doubt seriously whether one of our scrawny Eastern coyotes would try to tackle Jack, especially on Jack's territory where he don't give trail to no critter, but a pack would be different ...  Fay and I have always carried a small pistol when out hiking, but we've upgraded recently, and she's added a Crimson Trace to her Smith 442 that I'm sighting in .....

Any animal will attack ... just needs a reason (hydrophobia, hunger, young to protect ....)

Lannis

Oh fer F*^$%'s sake. The female coyote was protection her den against two dangerous predators.  She wasn't a pack. When was the last time you saw a pack of coyotes threatening anything larger than a frog or a groundhog. 

I camp in the Canadian bush all the time armed with nothing larger than a 4 inch pen knife. When I get et by a bear, you can come and get my Eldo.  In the meantime, try not to be so anxious (edit - wording changed to more accurately reflect my intention and remove possible offence - which not intended).

Nick
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: oldbike54 on August 14, 2015, 04:45:25 PM
 Bipedal creatures tromping on their homes ...

  Dusty
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: O on August 14, 2015, 05:10:21 PM
(http://www.deertrackingcameras.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/deaddeer.jpg)

Mayor,  This picture is priceless.  So much for those night walks in the woods...
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: JeffOlson on August 14, 2015, 05:24:14 PM
^ "Here, Kitty, Kitty!"
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: normzone on August 14, 2015, 05:32:37 PM
" When I get et by a bear, you can come and get my Eldo.  In the meantime, try not to be so anxious "

Wait a minute - there's an Eldo in the balance ? Damn, it's tough not to be anxious. I like Eldos...

There's probably some kind of a catch, though...like you have to take the Eldo away from a bear with only a pocketknife.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 05:36:51 PM
Oh fer F*^$%'s sake. The female coyote was protection her den against two dangerous predators.  She wasn't a pack.
Nick

I honestly don't give a sh!t what she was doing or that she wasn't a "pack".   She was a fanged wild animal in a city park, threatening my wife.

I consider myself to be too high on the food chain to allow my wife (or dog) to be threatened with being bitten or savaged by a wild animal.   

Any animal tries that where I can get to it, I'm going to kill it and its progeny.   You don't have to do that if you don't want to; and I don't care if the other kids chant "Lannis is a scaredy cat, Lannis is a scaredy cat".   Doesn't affect me at all.

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on August 14, 2015, 05:58:28 PM


I've told this story to many people, and about half of them tell me that big cats don't climb trees. I can think of no reason for the cat to be up there either, but apparently he didn't get the email.

that is odd considering they hunt them by treeing them with dogs
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: nick949 on August 14, 2015, 06:09:09 PM
Ok, Ok. Lannis............. ...Pax.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

I tell you one thing though, If ever I go into Polar Bear country, I'll be toting the biggest elephant gun I can find. Those suckers see people as vertical seals.  At least we can probably agree on that one.
And when my wife worked on a site on the Beafort Sea, nobody went anywhere without a guard with a rifle.  The threat there was Barren Ground Grizzlies which turned up from time to time.  Again, suitable prudence.
 
I guess what I'm saying is, it's all a matter of risk management, common sense, how real and extensive the danger and how much one is prepared to tolerate.
 
Me - I kill all the wasp nests on my property - I don't like being stung.

Nick
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 06:13:02 PM
Ok, Ok. Lannis............. ...Pax.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

I tell you one thing though, If ever I go into Polar Bear country, I'll be toting the biggest elephant gun I can find. Those suckers see people as vertical seals.  At least we can probably agree on that one.


Nick

Maybe .... We can agree that a coyote doesn't belong in a city.

I'm not sure I agree that people have much business wandering on the shores of the Arctic Ocean or around ice floes where Polar Bears are properly looking for warm, bloody protein ... the Polar Bear MIGHT have priority there still ... ?

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: oldbike54 on August 14, 2015, 06:18:58 PM
 Dunno , the Coyotes that moved in next door are the best neighbors in years . No trash , or loud parties , although there does seem to be a decrease in the cat population lately  :huh:

  Dusty
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: SmithSwede on August 14, 2015, 06:23:01 PM
Dusty, here's what I'm wondering.

When that bantam chicken attacked you, would you have had enough time to deploy a pistol to defend yourself?

Or was that chicken too dang fast for effective gun play?

 :grin:
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: normzone on August 14, 2015, 06:25:52 PM
I think we're focusing on the wrong thing here. It sounds as if only some judicious application of peanut butter is all that stands between [nick949] and somebody getting his Eldorado.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: SmithSwede on August 14, 2015, 06:47:53 PM
Well Dusty if that's the case, I won't ask you to recommend the best anti-chicken gun. 
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Cam Lay on August 14, 2015, 07:50:25 PM
We have a young male (?) who has taken up residence down the road from us. We see him about once a month. So far he has left our chickens and the neighbor's sheep alone, though one of his relatives did snack on another neighbor's (full grown) horse two winters ago. He has not showed up on the semi-permanent game camera yet, so is likely not hanging around the house much.

Fish and Game seems to shoot about one or two a year for taking an unseemly interest in children at campgrounds, llamas, hippies, and golden retrievers. I'm alert and cautious going outside at night, and i'd certainly be armed if it sounded like anything was after the livestock. and right now, of course, I look like the antelope with the cast and sling in the Far Side cartoon where the lions are saying "Dibs!" But mostly, so far, it"s just a neat reminder that we live in Montana :-) 

Good read on the subject is "The Beast in the Garden" about lion attacks, and the inneffectual Bambi-influenced response until somebody got eaten, in Boulder, CO.

I'm healing slowly but well, thanks :-)

Regards,
C

Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: normzone on August 14, 2015, 08:30:52 PM
Glad to hear you're healing. Lots of nutrients and some pain killing substances are what Doctor Norman recommends.

My philosophy on the big cats is to evolve a smarter beast. WHENEVER you see one, throw rocks and act rude, challenge them.

My hope is that in a few hundred years, momma cats will take their cubs to an overview and tell them

 " You see those ? Yes, I know they smell interesting, but they're VERY dangerous. Leave them alone. "
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2015, 08:34:07 PM
G
My hope is that in a few hundred years, momma cats will take their cubs to an overview and tell them

 " You see those ? Yes, I know they smell interesting, but they're VERY dangerous. Leave them alone. "

Larry Niven fan, by any chance ... ?   "Safer to eat arsenic ...."

Lannis
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: donn on August 14, 2015, 09:53:26 PM
Me - I kill all the wasp nests on my property - I don't like being stung.

Please excuse the digression from this important gun matter, but there are a variety of wasps out there that look kind of similar and even construct vaguely similar nests, but are very different in terms of risk and value.  The ones most of us dislike with good reason are mostly hornets, particularly yellowjackets, and the ones that too often get confused with them are paper wasps that look almost alike.  But they're bigger and have longer legs, and you can usually tell them apart in flight by their purposeful investigation of shrubberies etc.  They can see quite well, and they're looking for bugs, which is all they eat.  No picnic crumbs or anything like that, they want only bugs, and they will keep coming back until the bugs are pretty much eaten up, so they're great to have around the vegetable garden.  Hornets fly faster and weave from side to side - they likely don't see all that well but have an acute sense of smell, so they don't particularly need to look any which way, just need to move around in the air.  And they're smaller and more compact.  I think their nests get quite a bit bigger and more populous, but in the early stage there might not be much obvious difference.

" You see those ? Yes, I know they smell interesting, but they're VERY dangerous. Leave them alone. "

Smell "interesting", I bet.  We have a reputation for being eaten only by the old or sick predator who can take nothing else.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: SmithSwede on August 14, 2015, 10:02:45 PM
to add to this meandering thread--Donn, I like your sig line.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: sliphorn on August 14, 2015, 11:12:55 PM
Mountain lions in Kansas? No way! These pics were taken last week at Stockton Lake, Mo. (about 30 miles north of Springfield)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/Mountian%20lion_zpsrdvjofue.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/guzzistajohn/media/Mountian%20lion_zpsrdvjofue.jpg.html)

====

I'll be at Stockton Lake next week. I've always heard there were mountain lions there. Good picture.

====
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: nick949 on August 15, 2015, 05:21:15 AM
Please excuse the digression from this important gun matter, but there are a variety of wasps out there that look kind of similar and even construct vaguely similar nests, but are very different in terms of risk and value.

German Yellow jackets! Nasty invasive buggers. I leave the rest alone - especially the paper wasps, with their little umbrella nests. They leave me alone, so I leave them alone.  The others..........wel l, I go all Lannis on them.

Nick
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 15, 2015, 08:18:33 AM
 I didn't read every post........Best way to avoid an encounter with a large cat is to spend the time to learn their behavior.Even watch a house cat preying on running rodents is a good example. Yes, they like surprise attack and generally from behind on larger prey. Women running in spandex look like  prey to them....A firearm is certainly a defensive choice... if you have time to use it before being attacked. The animal often get extremely close before springing on it's prey giving no time to shoot. So you must always be on guard...
  Cats know from instinct the prey's face is too be avoided so they won't be seen.They don't want to fight and will  avoid a battle if possible.. Wearing a face mask on the back of your head can actually prevent a blind side attack. Cats are scared by loud natural noises. A blast from a air canister horn will run them off if you see the animal checking you out.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: donn on August 15, 2015, 09:25:56 AM
German Yellow jackets! Nasty invasive buggers. I leave the rest alone - especially the paper wasps, with their little umbrella nests. They leave me alone, so I leave them alone.  The others..........wel l, I go all Lannis on them.

Talk them to death?
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: normzone on August 15, 2015, 11:00:28 AM
" Larry Niven fan, by any chance ... ?   "Safer to eat arsenic ...."

[Lannis], I'd not thought about that, but yes, the Niven collection is in the book case.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Markcarovilli on August 15, 2015, 11:56:48 AM
German Yellow jackets! Nasty invasive buggers. I leave the rest alone - especially the paper wasps, with their little umbrella nests. They leave me alone, so I leave them alone.  The others..........wel l, I go all Lannis on them.

Nick

Nick now that is funny.... :popcorn:

Mark

Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: sib on August 15, 2015, 01:20:21 PM
Maybe .... We can agree that a coyote doesn't belong in a city.
Maybe we can agree, but we can't persuade the coyotes.  They're firmly entrenched in many cities, even NYC.  In Providence, they mostly keep to themselves, except for snagging the occasional cat.  They actually control the feral cat population, not to mention rats.  So, I'm in favor of urban coyotes.
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Turin on August 15, 2015, 01:35:20 PM
Rough Edge Is 100% correct. https://fsjdallindia.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/safety-measurs.jpg
Title: Re: "Ma'am, do you have a gun?"
Post by: Lannis on August 15, 2015, 03:33:03 PM
Talk them to death?

The only thing sillier than me writing all this stuff is you READING all this stuff ... and THEN writing about it .....