"Ma'am, do you have a gun?"

[normzone]

I've had one big cat encounter in the Cuyamaca mountains, nearly thirty years ago.

I was on horseback, going at a quick trot through a bunch of pines, when I heard a crashing in the branches. I looked around to see a young BIG cat in the top of a forty foot tree, making his way down as fast as he could, using the branches like a circular stair case.

He was trying to make it look like a controlled descent, but it was really more like a continuous fall with a series of saving throws.

My horse appeared not to notice, and despite my saddlebag pistol I figured my most effective weapon was my spurs, so we just continued our trot and put some distance between him and us.

I've told this story to many people, and about half of them tell me that big cats don't climb trees. I can think of no reason for the cat to be up there either, but apparently he didn't get the email.

[Lannis]

Well , and that is the point some of us are making . Weapons often times make humans act brazenly .
  Dusty

Yes.   And if you feel that you are the sort of person that will act "brazenly" because you are armed, it's very good judgment on your part to NOT be armed, and depend on grinning and wagging your tail.

Those of us who do NOT ride like idiots when we put on ATGATT, or who do NOT get aggressive when armed, are the ones who make those decisions in the other direction.

Lannis

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from oldbike54:

About the dog thing , well, big cats will kill and eat wolves AND dogs , apparently dogs are attractive to large felines . Probably would not rely on them for much more than a warning . Unless you own a 300 lb Rat Terrier

Most preying animals are always measuring gain against loss. In my wife's experience the dog helped because the lion didn't have the advantage and apparently not desperately hungry so it ran instead. The incident took place during the height of severe drought. I had been pumping water into our small pond right off our backyard so it was one of just a few spots animals could find water at that time and it appears that was what the lion was most interested in.
GliderJohn

[Lannis]

Actually , having carried a gun in some pretty tight spots , they make me more cautious . Just making the point that hubris can be a dangerous thing . As several here have pointed out , in the particular situation involving large cats , they are very sneaky , you will probably not hear the attack. So carrying a gun for protection against a Puma might give one a false sense of security . Kind of like taking a gun to a tank fight  Really , I just want Jeff's wife to be safe is all .

  Dusty
 

All true; and if the 20 people killed in 125 years is accurate, probably like worrying about getting hit by a meteorite.   On the other hand, I'm sure that continuing encroachment of humans on cat habitat, and vice versa, will make the problem worse.

And I'd rather take a gun to a tank fight than take a rubber spatula or something .... !

Lannis

[screamday]

I'm thinking "Flamethrower".   

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/13/smallbusiness/flamethrowers-public-sale/

[brenwin]

  Some research indicates that there have been 20 fatal to humans Cougar attacks in Canada and the US since 1890 , although there has been a very slight spike recently . About the dog thing , well, big cats will kill and eat wolves AND dogs , apparently dogs are attractive to large felines . Probably would not rely on them for much more than a warning . Unless you own a 300 lb Rat Terrier 

  Dusty

Lots of hunters here use coon hounds who tree the cats then shot them . Big cats will climb trees here in a heart beat and they run like hell from the hounds unless cornered then look out !

[normzone]

We had a bicyclist stand off a big cat here back around the turn of the century.

He was stopped to work on the bike and saw the cat coming. He put the bike between him and the cat and used his pump (pumps were still full size back then) as a whip.

When the cat would attempt to come around the bike and attack from a different angle, he'd just reposition the bike and whip the cat again.

After several rounds of this the cat grew weary of the game and retreated.

We had another woman on horseback meet a couple of cats in our mountains, and when she walked her horse directly at one of the cats it didn't flinch or back off.

She went back to her camp and loaded her horse in the trailer with the cats watching the entire time. Fish and Game went out and shot those two.

[brenwin]

True , but lots of dogs get maimed and killed in the process . The true story of "Where the red fern grows" happened just 25 miles East of me . A true cautionary tale of a close encounter between a champion hunting dog and a Cougar .

  Dusty

Seems the plural approach works pretty good here . Hunters usually have at least 3 or 4 dogs on a hunt . Spooks the hell out of the cats . Once treed its an easy kill . I've heard of a few dogs here who got too close and had to be put down due to mortal wounds .

[Lannis]

 Lannis , the idea is to AVOID the confrontation with a tank , at least until one owns their own bigger tank . Man is no match for a truly dedicated large cat , with or W/O a gun ,
  Dusty

Yebbut, how am I supposed to avoid them if I'm out walking or working or hiking or biking?    If a cat attacks me, it won't be because I was chasing it up a tree or crawling into its den .... I'll just be walking along minding my own business, not wanting a confrontation with a huge cat.

The CAT will be the one who decides on the where and when of the confrontation .... How am I supposed to avoid that?

Lannis

[oldbike54]

Seems the plural approach works pretty good here . Hunters usually have at least 3 or 4 dogs on a hunt . Spooks the hell out of the cats . Once treed its an easy kill . I've heard of a few dogs here who got too close and had to be put down due to mortal wounds .

 There were two 90 lb hunting dogs involved in the Red Fern saga , and the male basically gave up his life to save the female and the boy that he was attached to . We still have a few Pumas along the Illinois river in the Ozark plateau near Tahlequah , they don't seem to bother anyone much due to ample game and water . Once , while camped out on the river we did hear one howling , kind of sounded like a baby crying . Eerie , but no threat .

  Dusty

[oldbike54]

Yebbut, how am I supposed to avoid them if I'm out walking or working or hiking or biking?    If a cat attacks me, it won't be because I was chasing it up a tree or crawling into its den .... I'll just be walking along minding my own business, not wanting a confrontation with a huge cat.

The CAT will be the one who decides on the where and when of the confrontation .... How am I supposed to avoid that?

Lannis

 I have read that all creatures , with the exception of elephants , rhinos , large snakes , and those big toothy denizens of the shallow waters , are all afraid of Lions . Apparently , rubbing Lion poop on one's self will deter attacks from something like a Puma . You might try that , dunno .

  Dusty

[Stormtruck2]

A weapon is simply a tool.  How the tool is utilized is key in the effectiveness of the outcome.  Yes, if you are attacked by a cougar, mountain lion, puma, or God forbid all three,    you will most likely be taken off guard.  What good is a side arm at that point? Very good. If a large cat is on you, placing of the muzzle of the weapon anywhere in contact with the predators body, and firing will effectively alter the animal's thought process, and adjust their attitude.  Will a weapon on you prevent an attack?  Most likey not. But during an attack it is much more effective than whispering sweet nothings in the cats ear. 

[Lannis]

A weapon is simply a tool.  How the tool is utilized is key in the effectiveness of the outcome.  Yes, if you are attacked by a cougar, mountain lion, puma, or God forbid all three,    you will most likely be taken off guard.  What good is a side arm at that point? Very good. If a large cat is on you, placing of the muzzle of the weapon anywhere in contact with the predators body, and firing will effectively alter the animal's thought process, and adjust their attitude.  Will a weapon on you prevent an attack?  Most likey not. But during an attack it is much more effective than whispering sweet nothings in the cats ear.

Besides that, if I'm out hiking in cat country, there are lots of other things that I might want to prepare for.   Rabid mammals of any types, human predators, bears, feral dogs, coyotes .... I'm not just heeled for "cats".

Again, the probability is low and many people choose to not be prepared, but it's no-cost insurance "just in case" you're THAT guy ...

Lannis

[nick949]

If you're a real man, you just need a pen knife.............

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/wildlife-nature/articles/pdfs/cougar-cougar-attack.pdf

Nick

[Lannis]

If you're a real man, you just need a pen knife.............

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/wildlife-nature/articles/pdfs/cougar-cougar-attack.pdf

Nick

Wow!  Cougar attacks thwarted with a 4" pocket folding knife, being beaten with a lunch pail, and hammered with a bicycle.

And folks are telling us that there's no use carrying a gun because the cougar is too hard to beat?    I'll go with the guys who have BTDT, thanks ...

Lannis

[nick949]

Wow!  Cougar attacks thwarted with a 4" pocket folding knife, being beaten with a lunch pail, and hammered with a bicycle.

And folks are telling us that there's no use carrying a gun because the cougar is too hard to beat?    I'll go with the guys who have BTDT, thanks ...

Lannis

Pocket knife yes.............but he was pretty badly mauled first, and darn lucky.  This is one of the few times when I think a whacking great hand-cannon would have been rather handy - but the price is too high and the risk too low.

Nick

[oldbike54]

 Uh , 'Truck , you are much larger than me , and might be able to withstand that first onslaught from a big cat , or three . However , having had my ass kicked by a couple of regular old garden variety house cats , pretty sure that first good swat from a 250 lb kitty would render me unable to do much more than whimper and hope it ends quickly  Heck , have you seen the videos of a precious little white tail kicking the poo out of some Bubba dumb enough to start trouble with it ? And they are what those large felines snack on at brunch 

  Dusty

[Lannis]

Pocket knife yes.............but he was pretty badly mauled first, and darn lucky.  This is one of the few times when I think a whacking great hand-cannon would have been rather handy - but the price is too high and the risk too low.

Nick

"Price too high" is a relative thing, I guess ... they only cost about what a pair of tires do, and they last a lifetime .....

Lannis

[nick949]

"Price too high" is a relative thing, I guess ... they only cost about what a pair of tires do, and they last a lifetime .....

Lannis

It's a cultural thing Lannis: it's a price I'm not interested in paying.  But, each to his own.

N

[JeffOlson]

I should have mentioned, there are also coyotes all over the place where we live. There always seems to be more than one, and they roam through the fields at night. I haven't been too concerned about them. My wife and I ride our bicycles or Vespas around in the evening and see them running in the fields. I also have been taking our dogs out into the field behind our house at night before kenneling them for the night. I guess I need to rethink all of this...

And here I thought we were escaping danger by moving from the violence and crime of city life to the peace and serenity of country life!

Still, I am sure our neighbors will take matters into their own hands. Farmers and ranchers know how to git her done, and they aren't about to wait for state workers to come by and handle the situation. Not too long ago, a stranger came onto our road, Painter Loop, and he was checking things out. A few minutes of this and the menfolk got together and confronted him. He left in a hurry...

[Stormtruck2]

Uh , 'Truck , you are much larger than me , and might be able to withstand that first onslaught from a big cat , or three . However , having had my ass kicked by a couple of regular old garden variety house cats , pretty sure that first good swat from a 250 lb kitty would render me unable to do much more than whimper and hope it ends quickly  Heck , have you seen the videos of a precious little white tail kicking the poo out of some Bubba dumb enough to start trouble with it ? And they are what those large felines snack on at brunch 

  Dusty

But as long as you can fight, you will.  While you're fighting, you need all the help you can get. If he kills you instantly, well, sucks to be you.  If he doesn't, the fight is on.

[Lannis]

I should have mentioned, there are also coyotes all over the place where we live. There always seems to be more than one, and they roam through the fields at night. I haven't been too concerned about them. My wife and I ride our bicycles or Vespas around in the evening and see them running in the fields. I also have been taking our dogs out into the field behind our house at night before kenneling them for the night. I guess I need to rethink all of this...

Summer before last, Fay was walking with Jack in a park in Denver (Lone Tree, actually) along a creek bottom.    A female coyote came out of her den and started an assault on the two.   Jack would run her back toward her den, but as soon as he turned around to come back to Fay, the coyote would come toward them again, he'd run her back, until Fay had backed off far enough where she didn't come out.

I doubt seriously whether one of our scrawny Eastern coyotes would try to tackle Jack, especially on Jack's territory where he don't give trail to no critter, but a pack would be different ...  Fay and I have always carried a small pistol when out hiking, but we've upgraded recently, and she's added a Crimson Trace to her Smith 442 that I'm sighting in .....

Any animal will attack ... just needs a reason (hydrophobia, hunger, young to protect ....)

Lannis

[nick949]

Summer before last, Fay was walking with Jack in a park in Denver (Lone Tree, actually) along a creek bottom.    A female coyote came out of her den and started an assault on the two.   Jack would run her back toward her den, but as soon as he turned around to come back to Fay, the coyote would come toward them again, he'd run her back, until Fay had backed off far enough where she didn't come out.

I doubt seriously whether one of our scrawny Eastern coyotes would try to tackle Jack, especially on Jack's territory where he don't give trail to no critter, but a pack would be different ...  Fay and I have always carried a small pistol when out hiking, but we've upgraded recently, and she's added a Crimson Trace to her Smith 442 that I'm sighting in .....

Any animal will attack ... just needs a reason (hydrophobia, hunger, young to protect ....)

Lannis

Oh fer F*^$%'s sake. The female coyote was protection her den against two dangerous predators.  She wasn't a pack. When was the last time you saw a pack of coyotes threatening anything larger than a frog or a groundhog. 

I camp in the Canadian bush all the time armed with nothing larger than a 4 inch pen knife. When I get et by a bear, you can come and get my Eldo.  In the meantime, try not to be so anxious (edit - wording changed to more accurately reflect my intention and remove possible offence - which not intended).

Nick

[oldbike54]

 Bipedal creatures tromping on their homes ...

  Dusty

[O]

Mayor,  This picture is priceless.  So much for those night walks in the woods...

[JeffOlson]

^ "Here, Kitty, Kitty!"

[normzone]

" When I get et by a bear, you can come and get my Eldo.  In the meantime, try not to be so anxious "

Wait a minute - there's an Eldo in the balance ? Damn, it's tough not to be anxious. I like Eldos...

There's probably some kind of a catch, though...like you have to take the Eldo away from a bear with only a pocketknife.

[Lannis]

Oh fer F*^$%'s sake. The female coyote was protection her den against two dangerous predators.  She wasn't a pack.
Nick

I honestly don't give a sh!t what she was doing or that she wasn't a "pack".   She was a fanged wild animal in a city park, threatening my wife.

I consider myself to be too high on the food chain to allow my wife (or dog) to be threatened with being bitten or savaged by a wild animal.   

Any animal tries that where I can get to it, I'm going to kill it and its progeny.   You don't have to do that if you don't want to; and I don't care if the other kids chant "Lannis is a scaredy cat, Lannis is a scaredy cat".   Doesn't affect me at all.

Lannis

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I've told this story to many people, and about half of them tell me that big cats don't climb trees. I can think of no reason for the cat to be up there either, but apparently he didn't get the email.

that is odd considering they hunt them by treeing them with dogs

[nick949]

Ok, Ok. Lannis............. ...Pax.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

I tell you one thing though, If ever I go into Polar Bear country, I'll be toting the biggest elephant gun I can find. Those suckers see people as vertical seals.  At least we can probably agree on that one.
And when my wife worked on a site on the Beafort Sea, nobody went anywhere without a guard with a rifle.  The threat there was Barren Ground Grizzlies which turned up from time to time.  Again, suitable prudence.
 
I guess what I'm saying is, it's all a matter of risk management, common sense, how real and extensive the danger and how much one is prepared to tolerate.
 
Me - I kill all the wasp nests on my property - I don't like being stung.

Nick