Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: normzone on August 17, 2015, 12:59:40 PM
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While I was in the Bassa yesterday I swapped out the P.O.s air filter. All my google hits for the P/N on it were in Italian. It was composed of both screen and papyrus, oiled for your safety.
Now that it's safely in the dumpster, it looks as though it was a highly desirable racing item, washable and reusable, if I'm to believe the blurbs I'm seeing while I try to recreate my google search of yesterday.
And the paper element I replaced it with is spoken of disparagingly.
BUT THE BIKE RUNS SO MUCH BETTER ! It can't the be speedometer cable I changed, I refuse to believe that. But the bike is running as well as it did when I first got it 1 1/2 years ago.
What do you guys use for your bikes, and what is your recommended service interval ?
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Some folks want to modify everything that can be modified, and that's their privilege. However, I've seen nothing to convince me that plain old vanilla OEM paper air filters aren't the best. They filter smaller particles, they have better air flow, and, best of all, when you want to replace one, they're cheap.
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You're missing the point. If you want to 'Unlock' the 'Secrets' of your bikes magical power increase an *Expert* will tell you it's vital to 'Let it breathe more air'! And apparently rocks, small birds, false teeth and any other dangerous garbage that will happily wend it's way through a shitty labyrinth filter.
I would say that though because I don't know what I'm talking about........
Pete
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I use the paper filter myself. You might look at the tips page. Something makes me think there was a cross reference for it. I like to keep a spare on hand and replace that when I need.
ZZ
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I had a mouse nest in my airbox. Removing that helped.
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" Lose Twenty Pounds in One Week - Burn Annoying Belly Fat and Unlock the Secrets of your bike's magical power increase - *Experts* will tell you how to 'Let it breathe more air'!
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Although I have to admit that I've been running a K&N filter in my Sport 1100 for the past dozen years, I've run OEM paper elements in everything else.
However, I'd recommend an OEM paper element to anyone who asks. The OEM paper elements have lots of folds and pass plenty of air while filtering very fine particles. And they're cheap. You can change them more often than recommended, if you like, but I don't
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The K&N filter is 33-2682, and crosses w/ Fiat part number "Fiat 4434868"
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Paper. I have read engineering reports going back 20 years about the problems with fancy aftermarket air filters not filtering very well. The best, if I recall, was in aviation consumer news. Also Motorcycle consumer news perhaps.
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" Lose Twenty Pounds in One Week - Burn Annoying Belly Fat and Unlock the Secrets of your bike's magical power increase - *Experts* will tell you how to 'Let it breathe more air'!
But wait. Call in the next ten minutes and receive not one, but two miracle treatments. Just pay separate handling and processing. Act now. Operators are standing by. :grin:
ZZ
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Yeah...you think you're kidding, but I swear a lean popping after getting off a freeway run is gone, and the flat spots in my acceleration are gone also.
But let me drive it home in this weather and I'll confirm or deny that.
But it's just ridiculous how much better it runs. The only other thing that improves performance this much is washing the bike.
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But it's just ridiculous how much better it runs. The only other thing that improves performance this much is washing the bike.
What is this "washing" you speak of??????
Ride safe and often,
Jeff
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So, what do y'all think happened? Does the paper filter flow more air (it's a little hard to imagine that flowing less air would be beneficial)? Different aerodynamics (dunno how or why that would factor in)?
What's the explanation?
Rich A
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Yes, I took off the K&N pods from my V11 Sport that the PO installed, and installed the airbox and a stock paper filter. Runs much better.
Ken
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Well, it's official. My leaned out miss after getting off the freeway is gone. Temperature has dropped a few degrees, so maybe not conclusive.
But the flat spots in my acceleration are gone. Gone, gone, gone. WTF ?
And here's one I'll HAVE TO figure out. The charging light is on.
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Though it is not too unusual to see the charge light at idle, I would be concerned if it is on all the time. You may be running on the battery. Is there a chance that while routing the speedo cable somethi8ng came unplugged at the voltage regulator?
John Henry
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Air filter threads can be like oil threads.
Although I don't use them on all my machines, I have and do use cotton gauze and synthetic gauze filters on motorcycles for years with great results and with no problems.
I've seen all the "scientific" testing bantered about on both sides of the issue.
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You're missing the point. If you want to 'Unlock' the 'Secrets' of your bikes magical power increase an *Expert* will tell you it's vital to 'Let it breathe more air'! And apparently rocks, small birds, false teeth and any other dangerous garbage that will happily wend it's way through a shitty labyrinth filter.
I would say that though because I don't know what I'm talking about........
Pete
It always surprises me that the many highly trained engineers at the OEMs development site know less than the Oike in the housing estate
Why by changing the air filter and exhaust and fitting a magnet to the fuel pipe BHP can easily be doubled :wink:
While I'm on a rant - what's all the noise about re Max BHP all about
It strikes me that 99.999999999% of users will get more out of a low end RPM Torque lift than they ever will out of a max RPM BHP rise
But still - each to their own
Rant off :thumb:
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Nothing in isolation, that's for sure. I've had good success with increasing through-put, but it has taken intake opening, high-flow filter (just a bigger element will do), changes in fueling, and a more open exhaust, all in a nice balance. Can certainly help things, especially in combination with getting the mixture out of the typical too-lean stock range, but is a lot of trouble to get right! At the moment, my 1400 is stock, but clearly runs lean and has a high-restriction exhaust; VL800 is stock breathing and exhaust, but tweaked jets and needle; VStar 250 is stock; and the VStrom 1000 has some kind of power commander, a K&N filter, and some fancy exhausts. I didn't do the 1000, it came that way, but a very sharp mechanic set it up, and it's been to Alaska and back, so it is probably OK!!!!
Never have found that single quick fix, except running 100% gas in some bikes, mainly the carbed ones.
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It always surprises me that the many highly trained engineers at the OEMs development site know less than the Oike in the housing estate
Well OEM engineers work within different parameters/restraints than the Okie. OEM must produce a machine that works within the regulatory guidelines for noise and pollution emissions as well as often conservative reliability standards due to OEM warranty liabilities.
OEM is not always best for the performance-minded rider.
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Not surprised at all...
Better flowing filter means more air and without a coresponding correction via an increase in fuel you simply end up with a leaner mixture which hinders power and drivability. This is why it's not a good idea to simply slap performance parts on an engine and expect power gains without also correcting fuel. In your case, by sticking in the paper filter you essentially "corrected" the fuel air mixture back to normal and so the bike runs better as a result. As it should.
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I've been told the snorkel on my Griso constricts its' breathing by being too small. But the bike ran so well inspite of this I ignored it. Then I bought a F150 with the 3.5L twin turbo ecoBoost motor. I inspected the "snorkel" for it, just about the same size as the Griso's. I can not convince me that a 1.2 Liter normally aspirated engine is going to need more air than a 3.5 liter turbo charged; even with a 6000 rpm limit.
Now I'm sure there are performance gains to be made, but I strongly suspect one gives up reliability to do so. Even if I had the skills to handle this power increase I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper to just buy a bike with more power (and the built in reliability).
After my paper filter on the Edge got clogged by pollen after cruising through Kansas and Nebraska (noted the gas mileage decrease - it was a new filter before the trip) and replacing with a new paper element I'll keep with paper. I ran a K&N on my old 550, but she had carbs and life was simpler back then. :)
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The bike is an odd bird to me, but probably no surprise to any of you. Stock motor, aftermarket pipes, Power Commander III, stock map as far as I know. It runs visibly rich at the pipe end and visibly lean on one side of the plug and somewhere between rich and right on the other side of the plug.
Cooler temperatures this morning, cloudy, and happy engine, although minor traces of my lean pop at low rpm after getting off a twenty minute 75 mph run.
Oh, and the charging light ? Off. Gone. I wonder if it's heat related. This afternoon will tell. :coffee:
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I just LOVE air filter threads!
Oh. I forgot to clean the K&N in the Duramax...
Spud
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As [rboe] said, it was simpler then.
My Eldo came with K&Ns, and I cleaned them once, oiled them, and forgot about them for a decade. The bike ran great.
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Intake design is rather interesting. Ducting makes a great deal of difference with ram flow. See, e.g., http://www.ch601.org/resources/cooling/DuctDesign.GIF (http://www.ch601.org/resources/cooling/DuctDesign.GIF)
The air filters are all of great area compared to that required for the air flow, but designers often put surprisingly small holes allowing air in. Just cutting out these restrictions seems to have an effect. Most of the concern lies downstream of the filter, and most of that downstream of the butterfly (see, e.g., http://www.academia.edu/4839777/Intake_Manifold_Design_using_Computational_Fluid_Dynamics (http://www.academia.edu/4839777/Intake_Manifold_Design_using_Computational_Fluid_Dynamics)).
What always amazes me is how small the real exhaust pipes are compared to the air filters!
I suspect that opening up the box on the outside air side helps as much or more than a K&N type filter. And that designing a duct that would deliver a bit more air pressure at speed might help. Better yet, adapt a box with 2x the area of filter and you're way ahead.
As an aside, I worked on a fluid (including air) cleaning system that involved a way oversize intake box that used votex generators to create steady state vortices within suitably curved portions of the system. These curved sections had numerous small holes connected to a low pressure plenum. Moisture droplets or the larger particulates would be swept out. The system was surprisingly effective, and in a moving vehicle enough low pressure was developed passively to suck the unwanted things outside. I never have seen this in practical use, but I suspect it ended up somewhere!
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So, the tale continues...The bike runs FREAKING GREAT.
Yesterday, hot and sunny, I notice the charging light is on when I'm pulling into the home base. Note to self, figure that out.
This morning, cloudy and cool at dawn patrol, no charging light, healthy turnover. No charging light enroute to the target or at shutdown after my run.
So I think " Temperature related ? WTF ? Figure this out. "
I come out to start the bike to go home, and no charge light, but turnover is just a trifle slower than usual. I make plans to monitor charge light on the way home. Which I do - no charge light showing.
So at a healthy, happy 75 mph in my flight corridor the bike goes " meh..." and starts running on one cylinder. Doesn't sound like a fuel sputter, but I respond as though it is, take the fortuitous exit to a downhill gas station. I add fuel and it's evident that's not my problem - it only takes a couple of gallons.
I press starter button and CLICK - silence.
After one tow truck and a double moonshine on ice here I sit...
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Perhaps the cylinder cutting out was from low Voltage. the battery may pick up some Volts overnight.
Check the alternator for ~ 70 Volts AC when you blip the throttle.
Low Ohms between the two yellows, they sometimes snap off where they are soldered to the coils.
Check the regulator connections for signs of a bad joint, dis-coulored plastic.
The regulator has to have 12 Volts on the black wire, check that, it comes from the headlight circuit which is triggered by the normally closed contact of the start relay.
The charge light is next to useless, It won't tell you if there is no Voltage on the regulator.
Do you have an extra ground wire on the regulator, if it's mot properly grounded the battery looses Voltage.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Bassa.gif
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I'm sure you'll figure it out, Norm, but I just have to air my pet peeve-
TAKING THE COVER OFF AN INJECTED GUZZI'S AIRBOX!
I don't mind K&N filters on carbed bikes, but the injected Calis hav such a nice airbox (as far as performance and sound) and those damned K&N adaptors that remove the top so you can stick on a K&N make the thing honk like an overloaded rototiller.
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Perhaps the cylinder cutting out was from low Voltage. the battery may pick up some Volts overnight.
Yep, BTDT. The charge light is pretty useless on that system.
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Norm,
Check the grounds on the Bassa... the main lug where it is attached to the frame/battery tray. Remove that and clean it well before reattaching. And of course the battery terminals.
Best,
Rob
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Yep, BTDT. The charge light is pretty useless on that system.
From memory I think the only time the charge light comes on is if the motor is not spinning fast enough or one of the yellow wires is broken/off.
If the regulator is not powered up (12Volts on the black wire) there is no juice to turn on the charge light switch.
The charge light is fed from the headlight relay, if the headlight isn't on, the charge light and the regulator are both dead.
There are two diodes in the regulator, one between each yellow wire and the red output, check those with a diode tester.
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I come out to start the bike to go home, and no charge light, but turnover is just a trifle slower than usual. I make plans to monitor charge light on the way home. Which I do - no charge light showing.
So at a healthy, happy 75 mph in my flight corridor the bike goes " meh..." and starts running on one cylinder. Doesn't sound like a fuel sputter, but I respond as though it is, take the fortuitous exit to a downhill gas station. I add fuel and it's evident that's not my problem - it only takes a couple of gallons.
I press starter button and CLICK - silence.
After one tow truck and a double moonshine on ice here I sit...
As mentioned, the charge indicator on that bike is absolutely meaningless. In later years, they even dropped it from the dashboard.
First, check the bullet connectors at the upper end of the cable from the alternator. Those run hot and fail easily.
Second, check those bullet connectors.
Third, fuses etc.
Fourth, make sure all battery connections are tight.
Fifth, are the lights in the instruments working? I think those are the same power feed to the regulator. Nobody dinked with the speedometer cable or anything did they?
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From memory I think the only time the charge light comes on is if the motor is not spinning fast enough or one of the yellow wires is broken/off.
The charge light comes on or doesn't depending on phases of the moon, as nearly as I can tell.. :smiley: :boozing: At any rate, it doesn't seem to know when the battery isn't getting charged. I made it to within walking distance of home one time. It had been running on one cylinder for a minute or so. After I charged the battery, the light came on. :rolleyes:
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At the same time? :shocked: The worse is yet to come.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/buffering_t_shirt_zps0gpkpq1p.jpg)
Now you've done it.
:grin:
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So a minor update here - I've not been fully productive this weekend.
But I bought a battery charger and pulled the AGM out, charged it overnight.
Put it back in, dressed all the terminals with sandpaper before hookup, and compared the voltage readings to when the battery was new.
State New Now
OFF 12.91 12.75
KEY
ON 12.48 12.28
STARTER
TURNING 11.7 11.25
IDLE 12.6 12.15
CRUISE
REVS 14.2 12.15
That last number tells a tale - she no charging.
I had difficulty reinstalling the tank when I was done with the speedo cable / air filter, got a little pushy on it and it went into position. I don't recall anything 'lectric in that area but I guess I should pull the tank and check.
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OOOOOkayyy...
I pulled the tank. No wiring was visibly damaged from the previous removal and assertive replacement.
I pulled the stator/rotor cover. Yup, there's one under there, same as last time I looked. No broken wires.
I pulled the voltage regulator / horn mount configuration - did you know the horn brackets are marked " L ", I assume for left since it was on that side, and " H ", for...I dunno, "here" ?
The regulator is all polymer sealed up, and all the wires coming out of it are intact. The bullet connectors / yellow wires are in great shape, no corrosion at all.
There's a ... pyramidal ? Trapezioidal ? ... plate under that that has some wires behind it. I pulled that, and found what looks like a ground lug that has apparently NEVER been connected. Not sure where that goes yet.
So my hopes are dashed. I wanted to find a simple, stupid, self-induced broken wire, but it looks as though I have an honest-to-god electrical malfunction.
I told my wife it would probably require a new rotor, stator, regulator and battery, and I could probably fix it for a grand. She told me to go test ride new bikes. Neither of us is really convinced of what we're saying, but that's the Sunday report from Escondido.
I thought about beginning the cannisterectomy, but it turns out that the inconvenient doodad that I wanted to remove first is the fuel filter. :cry:
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Me too. I have the Ducati system in my V7. Single phase alternator with 2 yellow output wires.
My AGM battery was giving me some trouble holding a charge lately and I had been keeping it on a trickle charger when not riding.
Then, a month ago it would barely start the bike and then on the last ride my bikes system voltmeter dropped below 12.6 volts and no amount of revs would increase it. Normal at peak revs is over 14.5v. :embarrassed:
I have a VoltOhmMeter and did some tests. The coils on the V7classic are easy to get to and tested OK. Battery was kaput. Used another battery to start and run the bike and test the regulator voltages in and out. No out.
Ordered a new Maintenance Free battery and looked online for a cheap voltage regulator replacement. Stock price was over $300, but an aftermarket universal replacement could be gotten for about $120 - 140 and one place had the replacement listed for under $40!! :shocked: They come with an extra yellow wire for a 3 phase coil system but it is not used for the V7.
I ordered the really cheap one and also the universal replacement one for $130 ..just to have as a backup, but the cheap works fine so far. The cheap one came in a sealed bag and the polarity contact terminals in the connected had to be reversed. Took all of 20 seconds to do that. The more expensive one comes in a nice shiny box and looks exactly the same - cept it has the polarity wires in the correct connector locations.
Maybe you can get one cheaply that fits your Bassa too. Good luck!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/regulator1_zpsz6h2zmew.jpg)
Celox branded. $39 cheapo for the V7classic but with green and red wires reversed! I can fix that easy. Bargooon!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/esr530_4_zpsxatgomgk.jpg)
Electrosport branded. $130 with the correct wiring and comes in a nice box. Backup inventory or return for credit? hmmm I'll keep it!
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The regulator MUST be well grounded, all the charge current passes back through the chassis - regulator - alternator.
The horn bracket is not well grounded, a wire about 6" long from regulator case to a timing cover screw will take care of that.
Test the Voltage on the red wire where the regulator connects to the loom, it should show the battery Voltage
Ease the black/white pair out a little and check the black wire has 12 Volts on it with the key On
Test the charge light by grounding the white wire to chassis.
Test the two internal diodes with a diode tester (usually a symbol like --->|--- on your meter) it should be ~ 0.5 Volts from each yellow to red.
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Thanks all for your help to date. So far chasing wires shows none damaged, and cleaning grounds is not changing the situation. Tonight I'll work on the ground wire improvement that [Kiwi_Roy] mentions.
[Kiwi_Roy], thanks for your help, and please pardon my inexperience, but are these tests -
" Test the Voltage on the red wire where the regulator connects to the loom, it should show the battery Voltage
Ease the black/white pair out a little and check the black wire has 12 Volts on it with the key On
Test the charge light by grounding the white wire to chassis.
Test the two internal diodes with a diode tester (usually a symbol like --->|--- on your meter) it should be ~ 0.5 Volts from each yellow to red. "
- (other than the one highlighted) to be performed on a shut down system, or key on, or running, or ?
I must confess that based on [Penderic]'s experience I'm tempted to simply acquire a voltage regulator and install it and see if all my problems go away. I realize this is a bad idea for all the usual reasons - I've not yet figured out what the problem really is, I could install a new regulator only to see it killed by some other problem, etc. But if I need a regulator, time is passing by, and life is short.
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The first couple of tests you can do with the key on, not running.
The Diode test is done on the regulator with it unplugged.
It wouldn't hurt to order a regulator but order a single phase one (2 yellow wires)
Electrosport ESR510 is a good one I think
http://www.electrosport.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=esr510
It does away with the flakey Voltage reference from the headlight circuit.
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Electrosport, here in San Diego, just over in Oceanside.
The V/R currently on the bike has a pair of yellow wires, a pair of reds, and a pair of blacks.
Neither the Electrosport ESR510 or the 515 have that same configuration. This is one of those areas where I have to be smarter than the black box, isn't it ? I hate those moments.
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On the ESR515 the pair of yellows go to the alternator - same as the ESR510
The ESR515 has one red - the ESR510 only has 1 red also
(the Ducati had 2 reds but they were joined together in the bullet connector)
The ESR515 black is the Voltage reference - The ESR510 has this internal
The other wire is usually white for the charge light - the ESR510 has that also
Like the Ducati the ESR515 needs a good ground - The ESR510 doesn't need a ground it has an extra green wire, that's battery negative.
ESR515 same as the Ducati direct replacement. - ESR510 direct connected
Zero current draw when the key is off Draws about 0.3 milliamps with key off
The charge light relies on headlight circuit I think the charge light is independant
I went with the ESR510 just to avoid the problems with the Voltage reference, I have to disconnect it (pull fuse)
over the winter otherwise it flattens the battery.
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Ah...home again. Further examination reveals that what's on the bike currently is Ducati 343637
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/edl450-voltrect.htm
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Hey, the website says " USE OF ODYSSEY BATTERY ( DRY CELL DESIGN) AND LITHIUM IRON BATTERY NOT RECOMMENDED OR SUPPORTED FOR WARRANTY "
Does that dry cell verbiage refer to my AGM battery?
Some days I miss my Eldorado, my Volkswagen voltage regulator, my Volvo generator, and my good old NL-22.
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Wondering if this Ducati voltage regulator was worthy of replacement...I pulled out the history file the P.O. gave me and summed it up in a spreadsheet, sorted it by date ... I did not list tires or oil changes.
Component mileage date owner
bend shifter and replace bolts for front subframe 20020216 Phillip
crossover exhaust, Lafranconi, head pipe site with crossover & head clamps 20021121 Phillip
Map install 20021122 Phillip
Power commander, driving lamps, install exhaust and air box eliminator 20030130 Phillip
throttle sync, oil sender, 15400 20030704 Martin
Rear brake pads 20050310 Martin
Carrier bearing (u-joint) and rear pads 14025 20050331 Martin
Oil switch 21385 20060128 Martin
fuel pump 27537 20070913 Martin
Exhaust clamp 33134 20080718 Martin
Battery 33134 20080725 Martin
air filter 33136 20080728 Martin
Speedometer 36700 20081014 Martin
rear pads 38500 20100428 Martin
battery 20140213 Norman
rear shocks 20140327 Norman
front pads 20140415 Norman
air filter, speedometer cable 52000 20150824 Norman
battery 201141005 Norman
So no mention of a voltage regulator replacement on a bike bought in the summer of 2000 with 18 miles on it. There's not enough batteries in that lineup to cover all of them, so there must be some gaps.
Phillip kept it three years, Martin kept it eleven.
I guess that speaks pretty well for the voltage regulator.
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I have pulled apart several of those, in each case one one of the lead had melted off one of the diodes, do the diode test.
They are actually a very good regulator IMHO, it's the Guzzi wiring that lets them down, the reference Voltage is not stable and the grounding is bad.
The reference on your bike is particuarly bad because it relies on a pristine ignition switch
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I'm not sure if you're aware, but I was able to use one of the "newer" 3 phase RR's in place of the single-phase (2-wire) stator on a 2002 LeMans, with good results (previously 12.5V to 14.2V just above idle). And the only ground I'me using are the negative (green) wires that run right to the battery. I just used 2 out of the 3 yellow wires on the RR (tape up the unused one).
http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19170
The only downside is that there is no extra wires out of the RR to make the Gen. light on the dash work.
But for $40 ish for a used one, I'm very happy w/ it.
It's any RR from a newer Ducati - about year 2000 on up. Ducati started using a 520W 3-ph stator on all models from then onward. eBay is your friend!
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OOOOOOkay...
I borrowed a meter capable of checking diodes, had the owner show me how to use it, and took another look at my regulator.
There's two yellow leads paired in heat shrink ending in two bullet connectors which mate up with the rotor/stator thingy. I hope they're an either-one-is-just-fine set, since I lost track of which of the regulator pair hooked to which of the stator/rotor pair. That was all hooked up just fine.
There's another set, black and white paired in heat shrink ending in a male/female connector that mates up to a similar connector that drops out of the main harness. That was all hooked up just fine.
Then there's two more red leads paired in heat shrink that end joined in a single male bullet connector.
This single male bullet connector was sticking up in space next to the main harness, where it had the option of being plugged into a single female connector. The option to plug into the female was not exercised (hey, we've all made that choice at one time or another, even though we were single).
AND coming out of the main harness at the same point is a lead about six inches long that ends in a ground lug, that looks as though it's never been hooked up. TFW ? :shocked:
So to further complicate matters, the diode meter, which I'd been lead to believe would show a small reading when testing one of those diode pairs in one order, and no reading when testing it in the other order, shows absolutely no reading on any of those three sets in any order of hookup. :cry:
So while I have your attention, what the bleep is the little red tell-tale light-on-a-bracket mounted just ahead of the ECM just under the frame ?
We thank you for your support... :bow:
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The diode tester is used to check the regulator not the bike wiring the male yellow to the male red, test the meter first by touching the two leads together, should read zero Volts
Meter red lead goes to yellow, meter black lead goes to the red male, each yellow to red should read somewhere between 0.4 & 0.6 Volts
If you see nothing switch the meter leads and try again.
You said there was nothing plugged into the female red, that wont work its the regulator connection to the battery +, sometimes through a 30 Amp fuse.
If you have the fuse examine it closely for signs of discolouration, indication of a loose connection.
BTW the female red from the loom should have 12 Volts on it.
The ground lug you found comes from the battery negative and is supposed to be under the regulator mounting bolt however this has too much resistance so as well as that wire connect another short 12 or 14 gauge wire from the mounting bolt to a timing cover screw. Without a good ground the charging current has no way of getting back to the alternator.
The current goes from alternator yellow thru the regulator diode to red, to battery +, from battery negative to chassis, to regulator case, thru another special diode to the other yellow wire and back to the other end of the alternator coil, it changes direction 1,000 times a second at 5,000 revs
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Well, dip me in seventy weight and roll me in pea gravel...
The joys of writing - I WAS testing the regulator, not the bike wiring, but you can't tell that from the way I wrote it in my previous post.
And when I test the regulator pair against pair as you say and not within a pair as I thought I was supposed to I get .477 twixt red and yellow.
I'd looked at all my fuses already and not signs of trouble there.
Bless you for the explanation of where that mystery ground lug came from.
And that red needs to be hooked up? I figured as much, else why put it there.
But then how did it get loose? I looked at all the routing and it doesn't seem like anything I could have knocked loose in my earlier speedometer cable / air filter adventure. But it doesn't look like something that would gradually vibrate loose either.
So 12V on the female red out of the harness - forgive my ignorance - from there to ground ? I'll check it tomorrow when it's light.
Is this going to turn out to be a loose(end) cable connector? I should be so lucky.
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Diodes are good then, 0.477 on both? Sometimes one goes open due to overloading cutting the charge in half.
Some bikes have a 30 Amp fuse between the red wire and battery, the schematic doesn't show one but Luigi doesn't always read the comics.
As I say that factory ground wire is too small, when new the regulator may be grounded thru contact with the frame but down the road with
some corrosion it needs a better connection, if it has to rely on just that wire the charge Volts will be low, a 6" wire to the engine is ten times as good.
Yes 12 Volts between red and the chassis, or just fire it up with the red wire attached and check battery Volts.
BTW, Carl's drawing shows the red wire connected directly to the battery, trace the red wire along the bottom of the page to the ignition switch and back.
As a sparky I have a problem with unfused small wires like that on my bikes so I add a large capacity in-line fuse 40 or 50 Amps right at the battery, in
event of the wire chafing through to ground it will blow protecting the loom. The starter feed is man enough to look after itself
Also be aware that sometimes the ignition switch feed is not at the battery but off the starter solenoid live stud (where it says RED on the drawing)
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Bassa.gif
Good Luck
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I have been wondering how that red could have become disco.
I guess in fooling around with the V/R I could have yanked it loose. Or in pulling the worn out speedo cable I could have snagged it.
More tests tonight - work and heat minimize my parking lot time, damnit.
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So, I'm beginning reassembly of what is theoretically a sound system/bike. Way too hot outside, so I work a little, come in and chill out, go work a little, repeat.
I've got a couple of Hella horns I removed from my wife's Corolla when it got rear ended/totaled. I figured I'd turn on the key, sound the stock horn, and test the Hella horns to verify that they're louder enough to make it worth swapping out.
Did you know that even with the tank off the bike, when you turn the key on the fuel pump attempts to pressurize the injector system? And that the fuel filter holds enough fuel to drench the engine in recently aspirated fuel ?
So I had to take another break and wait for some (a lot of) gas to evaporate. I then tried a comparison of both horns directly off the battery. I'm going to find some method of fitting the Hella horns. They hurt my ears - I'm glad I'll be wearing earplugs/helmet when I use them.
Back to the outside.
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Well OEM engineers work within different parameters/restraints than the Okie. OEM must produce a machine that works within the regulatory guidelines for noise and pollution emissions as well as often conservative reliability standards due to OEM warranty liabilities.
OEM is not always best for the performance-minded rider.
Cost...... Always being the number 1 factor!!!!!!
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(hey, we've all made that choice at one time or another, even though we were single).
true, true.. :grin:
So while I have your attention, what the bleep is the little red tell-tale light-on-a-bracket mounted just ahead of the ECM just under the frame ?
That little gizmo (technical term) is a primitive check engine light. You are supposed to sacrifice a chicken, spread some incense, and count the number and sequence of pulses it makes. Or something. It's supposed to tell you what is wrong with your electrical plumbing.
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You got to be pulling my leg...for starters, which kind of incense? I can see seven boxes from where I'm sitting, and that's not counting the pine sap I collect and the odds and ends in the drawer.
And as for chicken, I have two free-range organic Rosie's legs in the frig - do I need an entire chicken, or will that do? Does searing followed by baking constitute sacrifice?
And does my owner's manual (I'm using it for a mouse pad) contain the key to those Cryptic Messages (my customer service guy's first band name) ? When I open the manual I see " First of all we wish to thank you for choosing this motorcycle of our production".
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Okay, here's the update.
12 volts and change when idling, 13 and change at cruising revs. Doesn't sound like a fully functional something to me.
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Did you know that even with the tank off the bike, when you turn the key on the fuel pump attempts to pressurize the injector system? And that the fuel filter holds enough fuel to drench the engine in recently aspirated fuel ?
Yes I knew that, it took doing it several times to get it through my skull though.
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Thanks. It only took me twice.
The first time I went " Ohmygawdofcourseitd idthat".
Then thirty seconds later I went " Diditreallydothatih avetomakesure "
So I've verified that it's all hooked up and it doesn't work. New ground established...Hmmm, bedtime.
The moon is full, it's cooled off, and for the first time in decades I want to night ride. And my charging system is funked up. Oh well, at least I own a Guzzi.
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For what it's worth, that is exactly what I'm getting on my 2000 Bassa. The PO had replaced the regulator with aftermarket,and cut the charge light out of the circuit, so none of our wire colors are the same.
After spending the week chasing lights, preparing for inspection, by Saturday morning the battery was pretty low, down to 11.2. She fired off, but I never saw over 12.2 on the meter. My Shovelhead graciously donated her regulator, which I cobbled in while I recharged the battery. Simple 3 wire regulator, 2 to the stator, one to the battery. Extra ground attached from mounting lugs to frame. On a side note, the PO had an extra ground, I'm not sure where it attached, but there were 10 ohms resistance to ground, not great.
With the Harley regulator installed, and battery charged, 12.5 key on, 13.2 engine at 2500. It's charging some, not as much as I'd like to see, but it kept the battery up on an 80 mile joy/test ride.
One test I haven't seen from you Norm, is the stator output test. With your meter set to AC volts, and connected to the 2 yellow wires from the stator, engine running at 3-4000 rpm, you should be seeing 70-80 AC volts. The regulators job is to rectify this AC voltage to the DC voltage you see at the battery, and limit(regulate) the voltage to around 14 so your battery doesn't boil over.
I too am curious about the warning at euroelectrics about not using a dry cell battery with his products, anybody know why?
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[pat80flh], and others who have been attempting to guide me, your errant student through this exercise, I have new information to report.
........the stator output test. With your meter set to AC volts, and connected to the 2 yellow wires from the stator, engine running at 3-4000 rpm, you should be seeing 70-80 AC volts. The regulators job is to rectify this AC voltage to the DC voltage you see at the battery, and limit(regulate) the voltage to around 14 so your battery doesn't boil over........
So I did this, with the assistance of my wife, who I figured may as well begin learning how to twist a throttle. You know what that can lead to...
With the two yellow wires partially disconnected so that I could access them while still having them in the circuit ( correct practice? ) the amount of AC voltage read across those two yellow wires was...17.
Yes, you read that correctly. The same number as the title of that magazine for fashion, beauty, dating and health tips: http://www.seventeen.com/
This sounds to me like a number that is suspiciously lower than 70 - 80.
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I suspect the higher voltage was with the wires disconnected completely.
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Yes, yellow wires completely disconnected.
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Oooooookay...
With the wires disconnected (disco, in the parlance of the locals), the voltage out of the yellow wires is:
Zero.
http://www.aviation-history.com/mitsubishi/zero.html
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Are you measuring yellow to yellow, with the meter in the "AC" setting?
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Maybe a pic of your test set-up will help
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The Voltage may be limited to 17 while connected to the regulator, if the regulator is charging the battery it will be clamped to just over the battery Voltage.
Without it connected or when the regulator is not powered by the black wire it will be 60 or 70.
You can also measure the ohms from yellow to yellow without the bike running, less than half an Ohm I think, low anyway.
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Just wanted to update this thread so that anybody stumbling into it someday looking for charging system help can get the rest of the story ( tip of the hat to Paul Harvey ).
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78784.0
Long story short, apparent damage to battery, but none to the charging system.
Oh, and in reviewing this thread I found this. The time stamp means [zoom zoom] posted this at the exact time I was breaking down on the freeway...
" Though it is not too unusual to see the charge light at idle, I would be concerned if it is on all the time. You may be running on the battery. Is there a chance that while routing the speedo cable somethi8ng came unplugged at the voltage regulator? John Henry "