Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: professor on December 10, 2015, 10:49:18 PM
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File this under I will believe it when I see it.
November 2015 Classic Bike Guide Magazine from Britain has a decent multi-page road test of the 2015 (2016 in the US) six speed V7 Racer. On page 66 the author is discussing V7 HP and the power band. Quote;" After the test we were gossiping with Guzzi staff, and one mentioned that the factory does have a rather special V7 currently wandering around northern Italy. This engine knocks out 65hp, with even more torque and would really tick all boxes." He goes on to say Piaggio is spending a lot of money to refurbish the Guzzi factory and sees a future in retro bikes. Noting Aprilia fills the other market space. Overall he rates the V7 at the top of this particular market niche. Ironically, being British he does not feel the same way about Triumph Bonneville's calling them fat, dull and slow things in need of a diet. This is the second reference in European press to an "enhanced" V7. So, maybe a enhanced V7 and new V9?? I've no way of really knowing.
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A 65hp V7? I believe it. Most likely has a 821 bore kit and cams from Guzzitech. His Racer I believe is putting 75 at the wheel with his kit and ECU flash.. Interesting machine..
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Is the second time I (independently) hear this story of a 65hp SB.
The first time, the engine was the same V9 of the Bobber / Roamer, a little more powerful to make it more adapt it to the future V7 "bigger brother" (it could be the "V8").
Moreover, 58hp at the rear wheel (so very close to 65 at the crank), was my guess for what's possible for a street legal 2V hemi 850 SB.
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A 65hp V7? I believe it. Most likely has a 821 bore kit and cams from Guzzitech. His Racer I believe is putting 75 at the wheel with his kit and ECU flash.. Interesting machine..
You think the Guzzi factory is riding around Italy on a Racer with GuzziTech's big bore and heads?
That makes zero sense.
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Hmmmmm interesting.
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Maybe they found a pair of Aero heads and put them on. :thumb:
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Maybe they found a pair of Aero heads and put them on. :thumb:
That's what I'm thinking...
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And they called the prototype the V7 Stottlemeyer. :grin:
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The 65 hp rumor makes sense to me. Over a year ago Leafman60 was at the factory and his guide hinted at development work being done on the small block. They were well aware of the need for more horsepower. IMHO the V9 does not satisfy that need, producing only 5 extra hp. It makes perfect sense to slap 4V heads on the V7 II lump or do the same on the V9. It does not make nearly as much sense to have both a 750 and an 850 engine in the lineup so I'd expect the 750 to disappear except for markets where tiered licenses make it necessary to offer a bike with less than 50 hp. BMW meets this need through ECU tweaks on the 650.
Peter Y.
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The 65 hp rumor makes sense to me. Over a year ago Leafman60 was at the factory and his guide hinted at development work being done on the small block. They were well aware of the need for more horsepower. IMHO the V9 does not satisfy that need, producing only 5 extra hp. It makes perfect sense to slap 4V heads on the V7 II lump or do the same on the V9. It does not make nearly as much sense to have both a 750 and an 850 engine in the lineup so I'd expect the 750 to disappear except for markets where tiered licenses make it necessary to offer a bike with less than 50 hp. BMW meets this need through ECU tweaks on the 650.
Peter Y.
I could be remembering the wrong bike, but I THOUGHT one of the early reports claimed the V9 would meet tiered licensing requirements through electronic limiting. But again, I could be remembering wrong.
But didn't Dogwalker already basically suggest the 750 will go away by the next EU standards (2017 I believe).
At this point I have to believe the next Stone/Special/Racer will be with the 850 lump.
If they have a 4V version (say for the Racer) that would make a lot of sense (and help justify the premium over the other models).
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And they called the prototype the V7 Stottlemeyer. :grin:
Has a nice ring to it.. :smiley:
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You think the Guzzi factory is riding around Italy on a Racer with GuzziTech's big bore and heads?
That makes zero sense.
:thumb:
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You think the Guzzi factory is riding around Italy on a Racer with GuzziTech's big bore and heads?
That makes zero sense.
I don't now. Dr. John Wittner went over to the MG factory for a few years and that's where the DOHC Centauro, Daytona motors came from, his expertise from racing successfully Guzzis in the USA endurance series for years. Dr. Wittner is actually a dentist by formal training.
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Dr. Wittner is actually a dentist by formal training.
From Chester County PA, where we lived until last year.
I think I've posted before that some good friends of ours (both doctors) go to a dentist that Dr. Wittner trained and used to work with. Our friends ride and that's how the conversation got started.
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If it was a larger bored motor would they still call it a V7?
I'm thinking 4 valve heads and/or water cooled. I know people wouldn't like that, but there is a sense that it's inevitable for all manufacturers at some point down the road.
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If it was a larger bored motor would they still call it a V7?
I'm thinking 4 valve heads and/or water cooled. I know people wouldn't like that, but there is a sense that it's inevitable for all manufacturers at some point down the road.
If it's based on the V9, they may just be saying V7 to refer to it as the aesthetic equivalent to the current V7.
Quicker to say in conversation than V9 Stone/Special/Racer or the like.
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I don't now. Dr. John Wittner went over to the MG factory for a few years and that's where the DOHC Centauro, Daytona motors came from,
Not really. The SOHC Daytona heads came directly from the SB Falco prototype of 1987.
(http://smalltwins.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/moteur%20falco.jpg)
Wittner wanted to place those heads on the BB Daytona engine, instead the already prepared DOHC ones (that are currently in the museum, you can see the DOHC engine behind the Aero one, next to the 3 cylinders) to mantain a lower centre of gravity.
(http://www.falcone-club.de/museo/museo16.jpg)
DogW
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Not really. The SOHC Daytona heads came directly from the SB Falco prototype of 1987.
(http://smalltwins.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/moteur%20falco.jpg)
Wittner wanted to place those heads on the BB Daytona engine, instead the already prepared DOHC ones (that are currently in the museum, you can see the DOHC engine behind the Aero one, next to the 3 cylinders) to mantain a lower centre of gravity.
(http://www.falcone-club.de/museo/museo16.jpg)
OK, from Moto Guzzi Big Twins book, "Umberto Todero developed the SOHC motor and Dr. Wittner developed the Daytona chassis". All these years I thought Wittner developed that motor. :boxing: Wittner developed his endurance racing OHV Guzzi motor but not this Daytona SOHC motor. DOH
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And Wittner didn'r think the frame himself, that is of Tony Foale, who made a guzzi based bike earlier. And Wittner visited him.
(http://www.eurospares.com/tfoale/mmjpg/tfmg2.jpg)
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...
If they have a 4V version (say for the Racer) that would make a lot of sense (and help justify the premium over the other models).
With dual discs, and maybe an upside down fork! :drool:
And please, PLEASE better rear shocks.
Maybe an V9 Racer R with model with Ohlins suspension on both ends (or at least WP, Showa, or something better than they've got now).
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Time will tell, I hope. Patience might be rewarded with the "perfect" bike. 65 HP, no more than 450 pounds, ABS brakes and great shocks would make me an instant buyer. Hopefully in Houston.
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yes and then complain that a 65hp bike costs 14000 dollar
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No need to wait. Put your money where your mouth (keyboard fingers) is! Just call Todd.
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-modded-new-turn-key-v9-ii.15501/
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yes and then complain that a 65hp bike costs 14000 dollar
Folks will say it would perfect; if only it had 20 more horsepower. :tongue:
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No need to wait. Put your money where your mouth (keyboard fingers) is! Just call Todd.
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-modded-new-turn-key-v9-ii.15501/
Hmmmnnnn
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Sounds like a dice roll...but love the concept
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Funny thing is, when guzzi finally brings this elusive beast to the market, it will struggle to sell in numbers that make any kind of financial sense! The 60 guys who have been longing for this bike, & have the money and will by spend it will pop, and then, ...crickets. I hope I'm wrong.
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No need to wait. Put your money where your mouth (keyboard fingers) is! Just call Todd.
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-modded-new-turn-key-v9-ii.15501/
LIKE!!!! :thumb:
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Making 55hp since 1921 .......... :thumb: :undecided: :lipsrsealed:
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Funny thing is, when guzzi finally brings this elusive beast to the market, it will struggle to sell in numbers that make any kind of financial sense! The 60 guys who have been longing for this bike, & have the money and will by spend it will pop, and then, ...crickets. I hope I'm wrong.
Just like the W650, the CB1100, GB500 etc.
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Good God, I fear the, "if it only had 20 more horsepower", will never end.
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You think the Guzzi factory is riding around Italy on a Racer with GuzziTech's big bore and heads?
That makes zero sense.
You would think it wouldn't make sense but I wouldn't doubt if Todd used the same guys Guzzi did ... Or hell ...I Wouldn't be surprised if he had something to do with it ... LOL
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What is so wrong with wanting more horsepower, does it make Moto Guzzi not a Moto Guzzi if it has more than certain amount?
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You don't need 4 valve heads and overhead cams to get 65 HP at the crankshaft from a 750 with a reasonable torque spread...But getting the engine to be emission compliant would be a struggle.
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Just like the W650, the CB1100, GB500 etc.
You forgot to add the V7 to that list...
... But wait, no, the V7 has been an unprecedented success for Guzzi. So no.
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What is so wrong with wanting more horsepower, does it make Moto Guzzi not a Moto Guzzi if it has more than certain amount?
There are two potential problems with it.
1. Where does it end?
2. What is the trade off?
And with #2 you have to remember how it changes the bike. It gives the bike a different character and feel, plus reduces efficiency.
So yeah, at some point it might not be a "Moto Guzzi" such as some of us love today.
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It will be prone to FAIL just as other flat tappet guzzi motors, unless they realtime test it to get out the bugs before it's release.
Remember the Lario, Hydro, 8V. Make it a roller rocker.
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There are two potential problems with it.
1. Where does it end?
2. What is the trade off?
And with #2 you have to remember how it changes the bike. It gives the bike a different character and feel, plus reduces efficiency.
So yeah, at some point it might not be a "Moto Guzzi" such as some of us love today.
There's some truth to what Kev is saying. A high strung engine is fun for sport riding but in the long run it can be annoying for some riders.
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It will be prone to FAIL just as other flat tappet guzzi motors, unless they realtime test it to get out the bugs before it's release.
Remember the Lario, Hydro, 8V. Make it a roller rocker.
They already have a reliable engine with thousands of hours of flight testing. Big valves, hemi head.. :smiley:
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They already have a reliable engine with thousands of hours of flight testing. Big valves, hemi head.. :smiley:
Can the meet emissions standards with it?
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No need to wait. Put your money where your mouth (keyboard fingers) is! Just call Todd.
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-modded-new-turn-key-v9-ii.15501/
It seems my photoshop has acquired its own life
However I've done better later.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Rosso-Impetuoso-R_zpss9pu9bq1.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Rosso-Impetuoso-IS_zpspq4jhhih.jpg)
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It seems my photoshop has acquired its own life
However I've done better later.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Rosso-Impetuoso-R_zpss9pu9bq1.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Rosso-Impetuoso-IS_zpspq4jhhih.jpg)
Holy crap, I want want want
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They already have a reliable engine with thousands of hours of flight testing. Big valves, hemi head.. :smiley:
I ask Guzzi: don't abandon the Heron Head. A one time favorite of racing cars and piston aircraft. Now I think Guzzi is the last bike to have it.
It really is a good design for street riding. Accentuates torque at low to mid rpm, where you need it. Don't give in to the max red line madness of the magazine write ups.
Now I'll be quiet and just sit, snapping my suspenders.
Joe
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Holy crap, I want want want
:1: Though give me one with the blue and white Special paint, or perhaps with the recent Stone green tank.
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:1: Though give me one with the blue and white Special paint, or perhaps with the recent Stone green tank.
Give me one with the controls placed where they should be instead of that cruiser crap. :evil:
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Holy crap, I want want want
:1: :1: :1: :1: :1: :1: :1: :1: :1:
I may just have to do an upside down fork front end and Ohlins rear shocks on my Racer.
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Good God, I fear the, "if it only had 20 more horsepower", will never end.
:1:
HP is as addictive as crack. My addiction is in remission, but for how long I don't know.
I went from 165hp down to 65hp, up to 90hp, and now 112hp...
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Can the meet emissions standards with it?
Not sure what the Euro 4 standard is, as far as PPM benzine etc...
Working on a wide band O2 sensor now, one for each cylinder, which will produce a good balance of rideability and low emissions, while still offering good performance on the 2016 Racer 4V.
My V7C 4V makes 54.9 hp at the rear wheel. Torque is 46 ft/lbs, at 4500 rpm. I have 18,000 miles on it since the conversion now, no issues.
Hoping to get close to 60 RWHP, 50 ft/lbs with the 820 cc kit and ported heads on my 2016 Racer 4V. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Give me one with the controls placed where they should be instead of that cruiser crap. :evil:
Well the photoshoped V9 Stones have their controls in the exact same place as the current V7s...
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You're really pushing the envelope, Mike. Attaboy.. :smiley: :thumb: :thumb:
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They could have the controls where the Racer has.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Racer1_zpsvje7sg7c.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Racer_zpsxmu8kmbx.jpg)
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Oooh, the one on the bottom..... nice! :whip2:
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Outstanding!
1970's numbers from a 70's engine.
Will the wonders never cease?
Todd.
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Oooh, the one on the bottom..... nice! :whip2:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Racer2_zpsqg6zrfai.jpg)
Seventies to the bone.
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Racer2_zpsqg6zrfai.jpg)
Seventies to the bone.
That is a beautiful package. I have no issues with 70's performance or looks and am in fact quite happy with them. It's the breathless anticipation/pining for it as though it's anything special that's kinda entertaining to me.
"Look Ma - I made pasta as well as Grandma did!"
Todd.
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I have no issues with 70's performance or looks and am in fact quite happy with them. It's the breathless anticipation/pining for it as though it's anything special that's kinda entertaining to me.
The measure of what's special is the interest you have for it.
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Oooh, the one on the bottom..... nice! :whip2:
:1: :1: :1: :1: :1:
I was never a fan of the "7" graphics, nor the number plates.
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Put 65hp + in her and I'm in the market. At the weight of a V7 it would be a very peppy bike. Don't give a damn it may be 70's ish, it's good looking like a proper bike should look like, will do what I want of a bike. If I want a hooligan bike I'll ride my Griso. :evil:
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You think the Guzzi factory is riding around Italy on a Racer with GuzziTech's big bore and heads?
That makes zero sense.
Funny, to me it makes perfect sense.
If Piaggio have been looking around they just may have noticed interesting things being done to smallblock engines. Why not do a covert check on Todd's efforts to check out reliability etc. and explore what Chuck et all have done to the 750's. Save a heap of design costs!
p.s. Do like some of DW's photoshops. :thumb: Not enough to make me sell the Breva :wink: but I still think they look great.
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Funny, to me it makes perfect sense.
If Piaggio have been looking around they just may have noticed interesting things being done to smallblock engines. Why not do a covert check on Todd's efforts to check out reliability etc. and explore what Chuck et all have done to the 750's. Save a heap of design costs!
p.s. Do like some of DW's photoshops. :thumb: Not enough to make me sell the Breva :wink: but I still think they look great.
Hmm , wonder if anyone at Mandello speaks English :grin:
Dusty
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I hear tell that they do at Agostini's at least Dusty. They may have put the word about. :wink:
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That is a beautiful package. I have no issues with 70's performance or looks and am in fact quite happy with them. It's the breathless anticipation/pining for it as though it's anything special that's kinda entertaining to me.
"Look Ma - I made pasta as well as Grandma did!"
Todd.
The measure of what's special is the interest you have for it.
That's a wise statement and good reason not to criticize the pining.
But I'll go a step further and address the 70's performance. There's nothing 70's performance about a V7 or V9. They brake/stop better, they turn better, they generally weigh less or offer more room, they BREAK less often etc.
And EVEN IF power levels are the same (and considering different industry standards in rating power from then to today, not to mention the proliferation of hero dynos, myths, and outright lies, I'm not convinced they were), the truth is the modern bike is already doing more with less (i.e. meeting modern emissions standards while still giving that level of performance).
So yeah, there's a reason to pine.
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They could have the controls where the Racer has.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Racer1_zpsvje7sg7c.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/DogW/v9-Racer_zpsxmu8kmbx.jpg)
Yeah, that's more like it, but I wonder if the exhaust wouldn't be in the way of them in the real 3D world..
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I finally sorted this out in my mind. I called Piaggio of Europe and spoke to an underling in the marketing dept. at long length. It took four days to get this done. It is not the final answer, but as close as I will get in the US. Piaggio is rebuilding the Guzzi brand with huge investments of capital. There is a master plan of sorts. V7s are A2 bikes or Learner bikes limited to 50 HP. They must be tamper proof and not easily modified. In that vein the US is NOT Europe. Here in the US you can buy 200 HP at 16 and go riding. Not in Europe, no way. So, there is the capability to add a camshaft and new ECU map and get the 65HP we want. They did it. BUT the V7 is built as A2 compliant for the European market. What they propose is the have another platform ie: the Roamer completely separate from the V7 in terms of all components and basic design, then use that to accomplish what we (and others in the world market) want, more HP and torque as time moves forward. Piaggio is more than aware of what Triumph is doing. Same market niche. But Triumph is much larger player in terms of financial resources. Guzzi is being rebuilt one line at a time. You may not like the Roamer, but it is the future of small blocks.
So, while they could give us a 65HP V7 it would most likely not work out as that is not the purpose of the current V7s. They are A2 bikes for now. Not to say it can't happen, just not as likely as I would hope.
Last and this is hard to say, but I will say it................w e don't buy enough Guzzis to make them jump through hoops. Guzzi and Royal Enfield are not too far apart in the US market in terms of sales. We can't demand much of anything until we are seem as players. They thought the new 1400s would be a bigger hit in the USA. Guess not. Vespa (also Piaggio) sells far better than Guzzi in the US. Why can't they crack this nut???
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Why can't they crack this nut???
Looking at the US from a long distance away, maybe it is because they seem to want to kill off all their good dealers? <SHRUG>
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To comply with the A2 licence, a bike must fulfill three conditions:
1) power output not higher than 35 kw.
2) kw/kg ratio not over 0.2
3) if it's a detuned version, the originary model from which it derives can't have a power output of more than 70 kw.
So a detuned V9, even if it derives from a 65 hp model, is perfectly A2 compliant, like the detuned Scrambler is.
That said, I find hard to believe that the 750 engine will survive after 31/12/2016. To keep in production two different engines is more costly than to produce only one, and for what gain, if all the competitiors are yet at, or over, 800cc?
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So with all the cries for "more manly power", the fact is Guzzi's biggest engine (1400 line) didn't sell as well as expected, and Piaggio's Vespa sold more Scooters than Guzzi. There you have it.
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Unfortunately I'm thinking something was lost in translation and/or the underling in the marketing department isn't much different from many of the underlings that work for Harley and don't understand motorcycles either.
For instance:
BUT the V7 is built as A2 compliant for the European market. What they propose is the have another platform ie: the Roamer completely separate from the V7 in terms of all components and basic design, then use that to accomplish what we (and others in the world market) want, more HP and torque as time moves forward.
But it's so obviously NOT "completely separate" in terms of "ALL COMPONENTS" and "BASIC DESIGN" - hell, cylinders/pistons, tank and some minor differences in controls aside, what's really different in design?
So, while they could give us a 65HP V7 it would most likely not work out as that is not the purpose of the current V7s. They are A2 bikes for now.
Or maybe this underling does understand and answered strictly what applies to THIS coming YEAR.
Because:
So a detuned V9, even if it derives from a 65 hp model, is perfectly A2 compliant, like the detuned Scrambler is.
That said, I find hard to believe that the 750 engine will survive after 31/12/2016. To keep in production two different engines is more costly than to produce only one, and for what gain, if all the competitiors are yet at, or over, 800cc?
Yeah, I'm still believing DogW's take on this!
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And look what the company's marketing dept. sees as the modern customer!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/anniversary-vespa_zps2ijh1xxr.jpg)
Fabulous? :shocked:
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If the V7 tooling and setup has been paid for in terms of sales in may survive, but it is a very dated platform. Still effective however. So, going back to the Nevada and the other iterations it should be well paid for. The New V9 most likely is the future. As for the Vespa ad post, I think you nailed it. Yes that is exactly what the desired Piaggio/ Vespa consumer looks like.......young chic metro men and women. I won't say more. The V9 buyer is the same guy with a beard, flannel shirt, retro leather jacket and battle scared helmet.
I think in the US given our rider/vehicle laws, we forget just how big the A2 issue is in Europe. Maybe elsewhere as well.
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Snipped
Last and this is hard to say, but I will say it................w e don't buy enough Guzzis to make them jump through hoops. Guzzi and Royal Enfield are not too far apart in the US market in terms of sales. We can't demand much of anything until we are seem as players. They thought the new 1400s would be a bigger hit in the USA. Guess not. Vespa (also Piaggio) sells far better than Guzzi in the US. Why can't they crack this nut???
Maybe they don't understand that if you build what people want, then sales go up. Not having customers is not the customers fault. Moto Guzzi doesn't sell anlot if bikes because they don't make bikes a lot of people want to buy.
Only Apple can blame customers and sell more of something.
While hanging around the shop yesterday a young couple walked in. A V7 and one of those Ducati scramblers were sitting nearly side by side. They looked at both, tired them in for size and listened to the sales person go over the attributes of both.
This is a Guzzi shop with full service for Guzzi bikes and they also carry parts and seem to get them decently fast. If you buy a Guzzi from them or anywhere else, a close by dealer isn't a concern, they are easy to get to and public trans is everywhere if you have to leave the bike.
After a few minutes they turned away from the V7 and concentrated on the Ducati and never looked at the V7 again. Guess what they bought?
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If the V7 tooling and setup has been paid for in terms of sales in may survive, but it is a very dated platform. Still effective however.
What I believe Dogwalker is specifically referring to is that we are of the belief that the current V7 cannot make the next tier of EU standards which come into effect on 1/1/17, but the V9 was designed with those standards in mind.
For all we know that might be the primary reason for the change from the Heron to the Hemi.
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What do MG customers want? The Norge sit unsold, the MG Adventure bike sit unsold. The new 1400s of both iterations sit unsold. So, none of these are the bikes people want. What is??? Maybe the V7s as they are the only bikes that move, even if very slowly. I live in the best climate in America to ride in. I see more motor scooters in one day than I see MGs in a year. My MG is so rare people take pictures of it. A new one at that I might add. So, what do MG riders want? Certainly not being made it seems.
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What do MG customers want? The Norge sit unsold, the MG Adventure bike sit unsold. The new 1400s of both iterations sit unsold. So, none of these are the bikes people want. What is??? Maybe the V7s as they are the only bikes that move, even if very slowly. I live in the best climate in America to ride in. I see more motor scooters in one day than I see MGs in a year. My MG is so rare people take pictures of it. A new one at that I might add. So, what do MG riders want? Certainly not being made it seems.
Haven't sales improved? I was under the impression that both the V7 and 1400 are relative successes in terms of MG numbers? I think MG will always remain a niche brand similar to MV Augusta as long as dealers remain few and far between and reports of "character" remain as part of the ownership experience. As for us MG riders, the forum is full of folks wanting the higher output V7, a new Lemans, etc, I guess MG doesn't think there enough of those folks to produce the product. I recall that when a "Scramber v7" concept was debuted folks on this forum were saying "build it" I'll buy it, they have built one now, we'll see if anyone buys it.
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I don't want Guzzi to become more popular. I like the fact that it's an obscure brand and you rarely see one on the road. If I wanted to be a sheep, I'd buy a batwing faired Harley and wear their underwear.
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I don't want Guzzi to become more popular. I like the fact that it's an obscure brand and you rarely see one on the road. If I wanted to be a sheep, I'd buy a batwing faired Harley and wear their underwear.
Batwing underwear ?
Dusty
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Piaggio holds 21% of the European market. No company that does that is incompetent or foolish. What I think is that have failed to understand or read the US market sufficiently to create a deep sales response in the US. Cycle World choose the Griso over other cruisers. The US press has not been too harsh overall. I suspect that if things do not improve over time they will leave this market. Niche marketing works, but you still have to sell something. Why continue to spend money to have vehicles certified if sales do not support the effort. It would not be the first time. As for what we want? I understand what you are saying. People say build it and I'll buy it. But then they don't. Ducati hit it out of the park with the new Scrambler. So, there are ways to make money selling motorcycles. BMW and KTM both had big spurts of sales. Some how they have read our market sufficiently.
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Being obscure is not an option in the modern market place. Cash rules. Another thing to consider is this MG is not made by non-union third world employees. The Italians get paid a decent wage and have benefits. Mandllo De Lario is not a sweat shop. That takes capital and sales. As for MG dealers who have failed....was it Piaggio and their bad practices? OR a poor business plan and under capitalization. My local dealer when I asked told me they are same as everyone else, they want to make money. So do I. I sell more than MG and we do fine.
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This discussion saddens me. I am very pleased to have discovered Moto Guzzi and to now own a Norge. When I have some extra money, I hope to also own a V7 or a V9. I hope Moto Guzzi and Piaggio press on in the U.S.
Moto Guzzi does indeed make nice products, and I am thrilled they are made in Italy and not in China, India, or Thailand. I simply did not know about them, and I have owned several motorcycles. By the way, I don't care too much about specifications when it comes to motorcycles. Appearance and fun are much more important to me.
Also, my wife and I each own a new Vespa. She got hers before we knew about Moto Guzzi, and I got mine after we learned about Moto Guzzi.
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As for MG dealers who have failed....was it Piaggio and their bad practices? OR a poor business plan and under capitalization. My local dealer when I asked told me they are same as everyone else, they want to make money. So do I. I sell more than MG and we do fine.
I don't think many have failed so much as chosen to stop carrying new Guzzis.
Though I guess you could argue at least Speakers "failed" from the point that it was ALL they carried so they essentially closed the doors.
Of course, if you look at some of the dealers that have departed in the past few years, they include names that were consistently in the top 3 or top 5 of the MG dealers in the COUNTRY by sales.
So I'm thinking it wasn't the dealer's business plan so much as lack of support and unrealistic demands by Piaggio NA.
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I don't think many have failed so much as chosen to stop carrying new Guzzis.
Though I guess you could argue at least Speakers "failed" from the point that it was ALL they carried so they essentially closed the doors.
Of course, if you look at some of the dealers that have departed in the past few years, they include names that were consistently in the top 3 or top 5 of the MG dealers in the COUNTRY by sales.
So I'm thinking it wasn't the dealer's business plan so much as lack of support and unrealistic demands by Piaggio NA.
I get that impression too. More of a hands thrown in the air; fuggit! than failure of businesses which otherwise carried Guzzis.
The motorcycle world's past is rife with tales of mismanagement and market misinterpretation/under appreciation. Piaggio is far from the first to underserve a market to their own detriment. Whole books have been written on the "if only" theme.
Todd.
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I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..
(http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o521/jwalano/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg) (http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/jwalano/media/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg.html)
I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!
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This discussion saddens me. I am very pleased to have discovered Moto Guzzi and to now own a Norge. When I have some extra money, I hope to also own a V7 or a V9. I hope Moto Guzzi and Piaggio press on in the U.S.
Moto Guzzi does indeed make nice products, and I am thrilled they are made in Italy and not in China, India, or Thailand. I simply did not know about them, and I have owned several motorcycles. By the way, I don't care too much about specifications when it comes to motorcycles. Appearance and fun are much more important to me.
Also, my wife and I each own a new Vespa. She got hers before we knew about Moto Guzzi, and I got mine after we learned about Moto Guzzi.
I too own a Vespa 300GTs. My beach bike. Excellent!! Would buy another in an instant. Don't take this forum too seriously. This is the view of the US MG owners and some outside the US. In Europe and in particular France, Germany and Italy MG has been reborn and doing a slow gradual growth. MG is selling most of it's production somewhere else other than the US. They will survive as an iconic brand and in their own unique niche. Maybe as players in the US, maybe not. But the tent has not folded for MG and most likely will not given Piaggio's cash input and the growth over the past year or so. Guzzi has seen lean times before.
American always want more power. Triumph, Norton, BSA and Royal Enfield back in the day all were caught up in appeasing the US market demands. Nothing has changed. Japanese cruisers are huge in terms of engine capacity, and they sell well here but not so well elsewhere. Honda won the touring market it with the huge Goldwing, so there is some merit to it. Every body who sells here is told build it bigger, faster with more power. All the while our speed limit is 70 mph. And if you think it is not, a local state trooper will convince you otherwise. We love "talk" about power. We are an interstate nation. I might cheap gas fuels this (pun intended). Royal Enfield, MG, MV Augusta, KTM and others have all found breaking into and sustaining a toe hold in the US market difficult. Total sales in the US is around 400,000 bikes.
MG has limited resources so they will move cautiously and slowly toward their goals. The V7 are A2 license or learner friendly bikes and limited in life span due to European emissions that get ever strict. Americans don't have those restraints, so want it to be more. Doubt MG will really act on that given the few US sales it would result in. Add the cost of import, parts, service and certify???
The 1400s while designed here sell better elsewhere. So, don't despair it is business as usual. Americans complaining and the Europeans doing just as they please. As they should with any minor market.
MG has always marched to it's own drummer. The old single cylinder Falcons were way past their prime. They simply do it their way. And it works in Europe, not so well here.
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Kick back and wait. In a year from now the current V7 range will be updated with the new smallblock 850cc engine. The new Roamer and Bobber need their time to shine first.
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I agree. Small blocks will do well for MG. Going to be great fun to watch. Better to ride.
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I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..
(http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o521/jwalano/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg) (http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/jwalano/media/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg.html)
I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!
Oh God! A reality check! Stop it Joe! :evil:
Pete
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Not having customers is not the customers fault.
I'm a Master in applied economics with a special degree in marketing and this is hands down the most fundamental statement on marketing I ever read. This should be pinned on every wall of any sales unit - or production unit for that matter - all over the world, the ceo's wall to start with.
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I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..
(http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o521/jwalano/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg) (http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/jwalano/media/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg.html)
I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!
Peak HP, or even the peak torque is not the news here, look at the increase in low end torque over a broad RPM band. I'll bet that the real world increase in performance is way better than the peak numbers tells.
I'm anxious to see dyno sheets of the new 850 vs the 750. I'll bet that even though the numbers aren't impressive that in real world riding it is is noticeably better.
EDIT: I wasn't looking at the graphs correctly, please disregard my comment.
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I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..
(http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o521/jwalano/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg) (http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/jwalano/media/Graham%20V7%20Racer/V7%20Dyno%20Chart%20001_zps3flqnws4.jpg.html)
I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!
WTF is wrong with that chart? Am I not reading it correctly?
The upper Red line is the torque on the modified run, the lower Red line is the hp on the modified run?
The upper Blue line is the torque on the stock run, the lower Blue line is the hp on the stock run?
If that's true, WTF do the blue lines not start until 3k rpm, it's like the dyno wasn't recording till then. There's no way that it didn't make any power until then, so we're missing 20% of the comparative data, in a not insignificant portion of the rpm range for pulling away from a stop and average riding.
Now when you look at the rpm range that I spend most of the time in 3-4k or even 3-5k I see almost no difference.
So no, I'm not ready to say based on those charts that the real world performance increase is "way better than peak numbers tell."
That said, I'm equally not going to call this a reality check unless someone actually thinks there's someone out there who is so dense that they believe that a port n' polish, exhaust, air cleaner and reflash was supposed to do more to a small block.
But even so, haven't we already seen a smallblock or two that HAVE been modified (piston kit and/or 4V heads/cams) that is pushing the 60 hp mark (or well on its way)?
Nonetheless, I think the change in piston/heads to the V9 is telling, and no way there is going to be a 750cc, 2V, EU emissions compliant small block running around making 60 or 65 hp. If there is a test mule making it, then there's more to the story (and that more probably AT LEAST includes the change in piston/heads to the V9, and that's just the tip of the iceberg).
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Looking at this chart I'm struck by how much the A/F varies across the rpm range. I do not know how the tuner came up with his combo of mods to work best on this machine but it's pretty clear that the final package produces higher peak numbers. The down side is 17:1 AF at 2200 and 16:1 in the 5000 ~ 5800 rpm range. I don't think the bike will be my cup of tea when it's running so lean at highway speeds. Modern bikes tend to tread a pretty thin line between emissions and practical use. In many cases the old hot rod tuning standards actually make the bike run worse. For example, installing a K&N filter along with aftermarket cans may lighten the wallet and sound louder but actually make the machine run worse.
FWIW, I got similar (OK, slightly less) hp/torque numbers with just a re-flash...no other mods, and tamed the A/F numbers so the bike 'feels' better across the rpm range.
Peter Y.
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I'm glad others are bestumbled by the graph. Grappling to cypher it out, I took a hard look at it, determined it to be above my pay-grade and outside my color perception abilities and moved on.
Todd.
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I don't think many have failed so much as chosen to stop carrying new Guzzis.
Though I guess you could argue at least Speakers "failed" from the point that it was ALL they carried so they essentially closed the doors.
Of course, if you look at some of the dealers that have departed in the past few years, they include names that were consistently in the top 3 or top 5 of the MG dealers in the COUNTRY by sales.
So I'm thinking it wasn't the dealer's business plan so much as lack of support and unrealistic demands by Piaggio NA.
My dealer, AF1 Racing in Austin Texas, is the #1 dealer in the states (though Dahlonaga sometimes tries to dispute that)
They carry Moto Guzzi, Aprillia, and Vespa. They also carry Xero electric bikes and EBR, but those are a a minimal part of their business. They do well, they say that Piagiogroupamericas treats them very well, and they treat their customers very well. We live in a very mobile society and bigger and fewer dealers are the way of the future. Unless we want to ride Hondas or Harley's, I think that's ok.
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My dealer, AF1 Racing in Austin Texas, is the #1 dealer in the states (though Dahlonaga sometimes tries to dispute that)
They carry Moto Guzzi, Aprillia, and Vespa. They also carry Xero electric bikes and EBR, but those are a a minimal part of their business. They do well, they say that Piagiogroupamericas treats them very well, and they treat their customers very well. We live in a very mobile society and bigger and fewer dealers are the way of the future. Unless we want to ride Hondas or Harley's, I think that's ok.
And that's great for AF1 but either they didn't exist 5-6 years ago or they weren't carrying Guzzi yet (or hadn't grown to the level of sales they currently enjoy with the marque).
IIRC Speaker's was the #1 dealer in the US around the time I bought my 2006 Breva from him (maybe a year later give or take, it was a while ago). But to do so he covered a territory of hundreds of miles including multiple states. He'd deliver bikes, pick them up and service them, go to rallyes etc. I remember Piaggio presented him with a new pickup truck as the prize for his sales success. And he was out of business just a few years later. Why? I don't know how much Piaggio had to do with that one specifically, but obviously his business model was not sustainable with the changing economy of the time as well as the pressures of a small single-brand boutique dealership.
Yes, I do believe a large, well-funded, multi-brand/multi-revenue stream dealership is all but necessary for Guzzi dealers to succeed these days (with few exceptions). The problem being that many of said dealerships often don't give a single brand (especially one in their minority) the time of day, so something is lost there in quality of customer service and attention to details.
I recently visited a dealership that claims to be the biggest Triumph dealer in the state of NJ (Xtreme Machines). They carry no less than a dozen brands of motorcycles, ATVs/Side-by-Sides, Jet skis, Snow Mobiles, generators, trailers, etc. My visit was specifically to talk about what they knew in terms of release/delivery dates, pricing, etc. on the new Triumph Bonneville lines.
Their answer was "We'll get whatever they send us when they're ready, maybe March, maybe April". I got the sincere impression they didn't give a crap.
And that was a brand that significantly outsells MG across the board.
I can't imagine their level of disinterest if they were to ever carry MG, and these guys friggin' carry both Ural and Royal Enfield!
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WTF is wrong with that chart? Am I not reading it correctly?
The upper Red line is the torque on the modified run, the lower Red line is the hp on the modified run?
The upper Blue line is the torque on the stock run, the lower Blue line is the hp on the stock run?
If that's true, WTF do the blue lines not start until 3k rpm, it's like the dyno wasn't recording till then. There's no way that it didn't make any power until then, so we're missing 20% of the comparative data, in a not insignificant portion of the rpm range for pulling away from a stop and average riding.
Now when you look at the rpm range that I spend most of the time in 3-4k or even 3-5k I see almost no difference.
So no, I'm not ready to say based on those charts that the real world performance increase is "way better than peak numbers tell."
That said, I'm equally not going to call this a reality check unless someone actually thinks there's someone out there who is so dense that they believe that a port n' polish, exhaust, air cleaner and reflash was supposed to do more to a small block.
But even so, haven't we already seen a smallblock or two that HAVE been modified (piston kit and/or 4V heads/cams) that is pushing the 60 hp mark (or well on its way)?
Nonetheless, I think the change in piston/heads to the V9 is telling, and no way there is going to be a 750cc, 2V, EU emissions compliant small block running around making 60 or 65 hp. If there is a test mule making it, then there's more to the story (and that more probably AT LEAST includes the change in piston/heads to the V9, and that's just the tip of the iceberg).
For whatever reason, the first dyno operator didn't start reading until 3k rpm, I don't know why. The bike was off the dyno and i was walking it out to the trailer when he handed me the printout.
I think a 10% increase in HP is a reasonable achievement considering the engine design and the fact that Todd programmed the ECM without the bike being there.
Whether we're talking 750 or 850cc displacement, I would think the combustion chamber would have to be redesigned to get anywhere near 65 HP. These heads do not flow well at all. According to my porting guy, he did the best he could with what he had to work with.
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EDIT - Joe, in case I'm misunderstood, I should make clear that I'm not poo-pooing your desire to play with the V7, try to see what you could get out of it etc. If you're happy that's all that matters. I was really responding to Pete's comment about a reality check. I don't know what reality he's talking about, but I don't see your modifications as anything more than confirmation of what we already knew, that you aren't going to get much hp out of just intake/exhaust/even head porting, that you'd need to go to a different head design/4V, etc. to make a big difference. I just don't know why some are assuming MG DIDN'T. I mean, they already revealed one change on the production V9.
Whether we're talking 750 or 850cc displacement, I would think the combustion chamber would have to be redesigned to get anywhere near 65 HP. These heads do not flow well at all. According to my porting guy, he did the best he could with what he had to work with.
Well, like I said I haven't paid really close attention to those who have been tackling this but I'm under the impression there are a couple who have started with the Guzzi Power or Guzzi Tech kits and pursued more power through 850cc displacement and/or 4V heads.
But I do believe that IF there is actually a test mule running around Italy with 65 hp (crank or rear wheel) that is most likely based on the V9 motor, with the different piston/head design from the V7 (Heron to the Hemi, like I said in post #71).
Now that is PURELY A GUESS on my part, but it's based on common sense (as you would seem to agree with your statement about needing to redesign the head).
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EDIT - Joe, in case I'm misunderstood, I should make clear that I'm not poo-pooing your desire to play with the V7, try to see what you could get out of it etc. If you're happy that's all that matters. I was really responding to Pete's comment about a reality check. I don't know what reality he's talking about, but I don't see your modifications as anything more than confirmation of what we already knew, that you aren't going to get much hp out of just intake/exhaust/even head porting, that you'd need to go to a different head design/4V, etc. to make a big difference. I just don't know why some are assuming MG DIDN'T. I mean, they already revealed one change on the production V9.
Well, like I said I haven't paid really close attention to those who have been tackling this but I'm under the impression there are a couple who have started with the Guzzi Power or Guzzi Tech kits and pursued more power through 850cc displacement and/or 4V heads.
But I do believe that IF there is actually a test mule running around Italy with 65 hp (crank or rear wheel) that is most likely based on the V9 motor, with the different piston/head design from the V7 (Heron to the Hemi, like I said in post #71).
Now that is PURELY A GUESS on my part, but it's based on common sense (as you would seem to agree with your statement about needing to redesign the head).
Kev, I am not that thin skinned and like I said, I jumped in late. I am happy with the results i got on the V7 (and so is my customer) but, I don't think I'd do it again. I think trying to get much more power out of that motor as designed is beating a dead horse. I am hopeful that the powers that be at Guzzi, DO redesign the small block to make it breath better.
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Kev, I am not that thin skinned and like I said, I jumped in late. I am happy with the results i got on the V7 (and so is my customer) but, I don't think I'd do it again. I think trying to get much more power out of that motor as designed is beating a dead horse.
:thumb:
I am hopeful that the powers that be at Guzzi, DO redesign the small block to make it breath better.
BUT THEY DID, it's called a V9. Now will they take that Hemi head and 850cc motor and dress it up like the current V7 line? I hope so. We are certainly hearing that from DogW.
Will they go the next step and take it to 4Vs? Again, I hope so.
We'll see. But certainly those are my guesses for this supposed test mule that is running around Italy right now.
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My dealer, AF1 Racing in Austin Texas, is the #1 dealer in the states (though Dahlonaga sometimes tries to dispute that)
They carry Moto Guzzi, Aprillia, and Vespa. They also carry Xero electric bikes and EBR, but those are a a minimal part of their business. They do well, they say that Piagiogroupamericas treats them very well, and they treat their customers very well. We live in a very mobile society and bigger and fewer dealers are the way of the future. Unless we want to ride Hondas or Harley's, I think that's ok.
I met a Piaggio regional rep a couple of months back (at Vespa Portland). He said that they use AF1 Racing as their unofficial warehouse in the US.
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WTF is wrong with that chart? Am I not reading it correctly?
The upper Red line is the torque on the modified run, the lower Red line is the hp on the modified run?
The upper Blue line is the torque on the stock run, the lower Blue line is the hp on the stock run?
If that's true, WTF do the blue lines not start until 3k rpm, it's like the dyno wasn't recording till then. There's no way that it didn't make any power until then, so we're missing 20% of the comparative data, in a not insignificant portion of the rpm range for pulling away from a stop and average riding.
Now when you look at the rpm range that I spend most of the time in 3-4k or even 3-5k I see almost no difference.
The colors on the chart are kind of hard to see on my crappy monitor here at work (my crappy old eyes could be a factor).
I think I may have been seeing both the lower curves as the before Torque and HP curves, and the higher ones the after.
That, of course, makes no sense now that I take another look at it.
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The colors on the chart are kind of hard to see on my crappy monitor here at work (my crappy old eyes could be a factor).
I think I may have been seeing both the lower curves as the before Torque and HP curves, and the higher ones the after.
That, of course, makes no sense now that I take another look at it.
LOL, so you need glasses and coffee! :thumb: :boozing:
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LOL, so you need glasses and coffee! :thumb: :boozing:
Yep -- and sometimes a little sumptin in the coffee :wink:
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Yes, I do believe a large, well-funded, multi-brand/multi-revenue stream dealership is all but necessary for Guzzi dealers to succeed these days (with few exceptions). The problem being that many of said dealerships often don't give a single brand (especially one in their minority) the time of day, so something is lost there in quality of customer service and attention to details.
Our local dealer in South Central PA, Europa Macchina only carries Moto Guzzi. But, they do have another business, that is repair and restoration of high-end vintage European sports cars. I would guess that is their main money maker, and that Moto Guzzi is more of a side/hobby business. BUT -- they do not treat it as such. Unlike the big mega dealers who could care less about a low volume make such as Moto Guzzi, Europa Macchina are passionate about Moto Guzzi, and give first class sales and service.
I think this is the only viable business model for a Moto Guzzi dealer, other than being a multi-brand dealer. That is, to have another (or more than one) revenue stream, which can keep them alive through the lean times. That said, I get the impression from conversations with the owners that Piaggio USA's increasing floor plan requirements have put a strain on them. I like them a lot, and almost feel guilty for having bought all four Guzzis that I've owned used. If you live in PA or Maryland, it is definitely worth checking them out.
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Our local dealer in South Central PA, Europa Macchina only carries Moto Guzzi. But, they do have another business, that is repair and restoration of high-end vintage European sports cars. I would guess that is their main money maker, and that Moto Guzzi is more of a side/hobby business. BUT -- they do not treat it as such. Unlike the big mega dealers who could care less about a low volume make such as Moto Guzzi, Europa Macchina are passionate about Moto Guzzi, and give first class sales and service.
I think this is the only viable business model for a Moto Guzzi dealer, other than being a multi-brand dealer. That is, to have another (or more than one) revenue stream, which can keep them alive through the lean times. That said, I get the impression from conversations with the owners that Piaggio USA's increasing floor plan requirements have put a strain on them. I like them a lot, and almost feel guilty for having bought all four Guzzis that I've owned used. If you live in PA or Maryland, it is definitely worth checking them out.
Be it a large multi-brand dealer or a dealer with other revenue streams (which is what MPH always was also) I'm sorta thinking that's the same basic business model. I.E. you can't go it alone.
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That said, I get the impression from conversations with the owners that Piaggio USA's increasing floor plan requirements have put a strain on them.
This is exactly why Carl @ Winchester Motorsports has no new Guzzis on the floor. He'll order one for you, but can't afford to meet Piaggio's demands.
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Kev, I live within a short driving of six or seven Guzzi dealers. ALL are as you say. Multi dealers. One is pure Italian products, none are just Guzzi. Just finished reading a very detailed history of Vespa. Explains the way Piaggio thinks. And why we get frustrated with them. Vespa shaped the company and it's success.
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Just got off the phone with the largest MG dealer in England. Learned something interesting. This is not law yet, but is proposed in the EU. All A2 bikes must be (Future) built from the ground up as A2 compliant. They cannot be modified and must be to use their term, tamper proof. So, the standards are never compromised. Penalties if you do so and are caught by an inspector. HP is limited to A2 regs and fixed by engine design.
Second, if MG has a 65HP V7 (they heard the same rumor from Italians close to the factory) it most certainly, in their opinion is not running Heron heads. It is most likely a four valve head traditional with modern combustion chamber. The camshaft and ECU are as well upgraded. Exhaust?? EU compliant is not required on proto-types from the factory, but must be compliant upon manufacturing for resale to the public. Now, if this 65Hp is based upon the current V7 design, then it would run afoul of the proposed legislation or it seems so. I guess getting this to move forward is more difficult that it appears at first blush.
Not living in Europe limits our perspective. And I thought California was over regulated.
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Just got off the phone with the largest MG dealer in England. Learned something interesting. This is not law yet, but is proposed in the EU. All A2 bikes must be (Future) built from the ground up as A2 compliant.
There are always tons of proposal of change of any rule, but the actual one is only two years old, and the precedent one lasted 14 years. I would not hold my breath for a change in the European driving Licence rules, at least for the next ten years.
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Good perspective. Government always grinds slowly. Nothing is certain. Whether MG is influenced by this possibliity or not, I could only guess.
I notice some of the British, Swiss and German MGs are lapping the Isle of Mann on the far side of 100 MPH. So, like Dr. John they have figured them out and certainly how to get the last ounce out.
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I am enjoying the different perspectives in this thread. Always nice to see dyno graphs that tell the tale. I think it is important to nail down horsepower numbers based on engine output at the crank vs. rear wheel horsepower. It seems like the numbers from Guzzi are consistently measured at the crank.
When I hear of a small block in northern Italy making 65 hp, I have to wonder where that number is measured. I assume that it is crank horsepower. Allowing for another assumption, the loss of power due to the drivetrain, I would guess that this bike is probably making between 55 to 60 horsepower at the rear wheel. The lowest rear wheel horsepower number for my 4V V7 Classic was 53. If nothing else the 4V engine demonstrates that the 750 is capable of good performance if you can move more air through it.
I can't wait until the V9 arrives, a perfect candidate for a 4V swap! Here is a dyno chart of the 4V as compared to a stock 2V 750. Just over 40% increase.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/StockBoreV74V-vs-StockV7-Dyno_zpscuetmas8.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/StockBoreV74V-vs-StockV7-Dyno_zpscuetmas8.jpg.html)
Here is the all gear run, RWHP came out a little higher on this one, 54.99.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/20150826_185654_002_zps5qeuxhst.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/20150826_185654_002_zps5qeuxhst.jpg.html)
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I'm holding out for the 66 HP model :huh:
Dusty
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The laws of physics are a hard taskmaster. Much easier to just use a dyno with Shetland ponies inside.
Pete
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The laws of physics are a hard taskmaster. Much easier to just use a dyno with Shetland ponies inside.
Pete
Yep , many a engineer on a large displacement Vtwin project started out shooting for 100 HP to end up with something closer to 70 Shetland ponies .
Dusty
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I am enjoying the different perspectives in this thread. Always nice to see dyno graphs that tell the tale. I think it is important to nail down horsepower numbers based on engine output at the crank vs. rear wheel horsepower. It seems like the numbers from Guzzi are consistently measured at the crank.
When I hear of a small block in northern Italy making 65 hp, I have to wonder where that number is measured. I assume that it is crank horsepower. Allowing for another assumption, the loss of power due to the drivetrain, I would guess that this bike is probably making between 55 to 60 horsepower at the rear wheel. The lowest rear wheel horsepower number for my 4V V7 Classic was 53. If nothing else the 4V engine demonstrates that the 750 is capable of good performance if you can move more air through it.
I can't wait until the V9 arrives, a perfect candidate for a 4V swap! Here is a dyno chart of the 4V as compared to a stock 2V 750. Just over 40% increase.
Great job! I'd love a V7 with 55 HP to the rear wheel!
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Great job! I'd love a V7 with 55 HP to the rear wheel!
It really improves the bike, makes it all that more enjoyable to ride. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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At what point do you have to start worrying about shaft jacking when dealing with a high power v7?
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It really improves the bike, makes it all that more enjoyable to ride. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
You are the one working with Todd on these smallblocks, right?
Is that alleged test mule Racer spotted in Italy related to your work, or is Guzzi trying to do the same thing?
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so if I put a bottle on one and give it a 20 shot once in a while I will have a 60 HP RWHP V7, for as often as I need that ultimate output would take it just fine.. Hell a 10 shot would be a 25 percent increase...I ran 50 to 70 Shot on my ZX with only a couple bars on the PC, just a quarter mile at a time (bike was built for the standing mile at 210MPH/guarter 165 MPH with 250 HP with NOS) held together too..for the V7 probably don't need (all that) lol , power so bad tho maybe will stick with the 39 RWHP option, too damn old to go too damn fast ...Of course a little turbo would do the same thing, .Actually a turbo would probably be a better option than cams, heads, compression changes...
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Mwrenn's dyno chart is certainly impressive. Although the hp figure is eye catching the torque is what really gets my attention. Getting 30% more torque at 4000 rpm.....right where I'd want more punch for daily riding....is a whole lot more useful than a huge hp number at stratospheric rpm. As a comparison, look at some of the 600 cc bikes that are cranking out 100+ hp at something like 10,000 rpm.
Peter Y.
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Nitrous.
just throwing it out there
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Nitrous.
just throwing it out there
already been mentioned :smiley:
so if I put a bottle on one
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already been mentioned :smiley:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/MkII_07.JPG)
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Are any of these much more powerful smallblocks running different connecting rods? Just wondering as the stock units have always been a bit flimsy......
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I would rather have an under-stressed, long-lived, tractable engine with moderate power and decent fuel economy than an over-stressed, gas-guzzling, jerky engine that is just waiting to explode...
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/MkII_07.JPG)
You cowards.
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You can always ward off the grenade syndrome by using these valve caps. Oh! Wait.. mine blew up, too. :smiley: :evil:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg.html)
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I would rather have an under-stressed, long-lived, tractable engine with moderate power and decent fuel economy than an over-stressed, gas-guzzling, jerky engine that is just waiting to explode...
Despite my tough posturing, I agree. In fact I commented earlier that the Guzzi's Heron head does just that; giving strong torque at low and medium rpms with good economy.
It's just that too many people think the red line is the cool place to be.
I hope Guzzi never gives up the Heron. It's the last manufacturer to make it.
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Are any of these much more powerful smallblocks running different connecting rods? Just wondering as the stock units have always been a bit flimsy......
I am using the stock connecting rods. The engine does not rev any higher than the the two valve version, it just gets there faster. I think that one of the main factors in having this be a reliable mill, is the rev limiter. Reliability has been good so far. Rolling up on 18,000 miles. It would be fun to get into the bottom end of one of these engines, put some Carillo connecting rods in, bump up the rev limiter some. It's really not necessary though, the bike has just the right amount of power now.