65 HP V7

[cruzziguzzi]

I'm glad others are bestumbled by the graph. Grappling to cypher it out, I took a hard look at it, determined it to be above my pay-grade and outside my color perception abilities and moved on.


Todd.

[motodoc43]

I don't think many have failed so much as chosen to stop carrying new Guzzis.

Though I guess you could argue at least Speakers "failed" from the point that it was ALL they carried so they essentially closed the doors.

Of course, if you look at some of the dealers that have departed in the past few years, they include names that were consistently in the top 3 or top 5 of the MG dealers in the COUNTRY by sales.

So I'm thinking it wasn't the dealer's business plan so much as lack of support and unrealistic demands by Piaggio NA.

My dealer, AF1 Racing in Austin Texas, is the #1 dealer in the states (though Dahlonaga sometimes tries to dispute that)
They carry Moto Guzzi, Aprillia, and Vespa. They also carry Xero electric bikes and EBR, but those are a a minimal part of their business. They do well, they say that Piagiogroupamericas treats them very well, and they treat their customers very well. We live in a very mobile society and bigger and fewer dealers are the way of the future. Unless we want to ride Hondas or Harley's, I think that's ok.

[Kev m]

My dealer, AF1 Racing in Austin Texas, is the #1 dealer in the states (though Dahlonaga sometimes tries to dispute that)
They carry Moto Guzzi, Aprillia, and Vespa. They also carry Xero electric bikes and EBR, but those are a a minimal part of their business. They do well, they say that Piagiogroupamericas treats them very well, and they treat their customers very well. We live in a very mobile society and bigger and fewer dealers are the way of the future. Unless we want to ride Hondas or Harley's, I think that's ok.

And that's great for AF1 but either they didn't exist 5-6 years ago or they weren't carrying Guzzi yet (or hadn't grown to the level of sales they currently enjoy with the marque).

IIRC Speaker's was the #1 dealer in the US around the time I bought my 2006 Breva from him (maybe a year later give or take, it was a while ago). But to do so he covered a territory of hundreds of miles including multiple states. He'd deliver bikes, pick them up and service them, go to rallyes etc. I remember Piaggio presented him with a new pickup truck as the prize for his sales success. And he was out of business just a few years later. Why? I don't know how much Piaggio had to do with that one specifically, but obviously his business model was not sustainable with the changing economy of the time as well as the pressures of a small single-brand boutique dealership.

Yes, I do believe a large, well-funded, multi-brand/multi-revenue stream dealership is all but necessary for Guzzi dealers to succeed these days (with few exceptions). The problem being that many of said dealerships often don't give a single brand (especially one in their minority) the time of day, so something is lost there in quality of customer service and attention to details.

I recently visited a dealership that claims to be the biggest Triumph dealer in the state of NJ (Xtreme Machines). They carry no less than a dozen brands of motorcycles, ATVs/Side-by-Sides, Jet skis, Snow Mobiles, generators, trailers, etc. My visit was specifically to talk about what they knew in terms of release/delivery dates, pricing, etc. on the new Triumph Bonneville lines.

Their answer was "We'll get whatever they send us when they're ready, maybe March, maybe April". I got the sincere impression they didn't give a crap.

And that was a brand that significantly outsells MG across the board.

I can't imagine their level of disinterest if they were to ever carry MG, and these guys friggin' carry both Ural and Royal Enfield!

[JoeW]

WTF is wrong with that chart? Am I not reading it correctly?

The upper Red line is the torque on the modified run, the lower Red line is the hp on the modified run?

The upper Blue line is the torque on the stock run, the lower Blue line is the hp on the stock run?

If that's true, WTF do the blue lines not start until 3k rpm, it's like the dyno wasn't recording till then. There's no way that it didn't make any power until then, so we're missing 20% of the comparative data, in a not insignificant portion of the rpm range for pulling away from a stop and average riding.

Now when you look at the rpm range that I spend most of the time in 3-4k or even 3-5k I see almost no difference.

So no, I'm not ready to say based on those charts that the real world performance increase is "way better than peak numbers tell."

That said, I'm equally not going to call this a reality check unless someone actually thinks there's someone out there who is so dense that they believe that a port n' polish, exhaust, air cleaner and reflash was supposed to do more to a small block.

But even so, haven't we already seen a smallblock or two that HAVE been modified (piston kit and/or 4V heads/cams) that is pushing the 60 hp mark (or well on its way)?

Nonetheless, I think the change in piston/heads to the V9 is telling, and no way there is going to be a 750cc, 2V, EU emissions compliant small block running around making 60 or 65 hp. If there is a test mule making it, then there's more to the story (and that more probably AT LEAST includes the change in piston/heads to the V9, and that's just the tip of the iceberg).

For whatever reason, the first dyno operator didn't start reading until 3k rpm, I don't know why. The bike was off the dyno and i was walking it out to the trailer when he handed me the printout.
I think a 10% increase in HP is a reasonable achievement considering the engine design and the fact that Todd programmed the ECM without the bike being there.
Whether we're talking 750 or 850cc displacement, I would think the combustion chamber would have to be redesigned to get anywhere near 65 HP. These heads do not flow well at all. According to my porting guy, he did the best he could with what he had to work with.

[Kev m]

EDIT - Joe, in case I'm misunderstood, I should make clear that I'm not poo-pooing your desire to play with the V7, try to see what you could get out of it etc. If you're happy that's all that matters. I was really responding to Pete's comment about a reality check. I don't know what reality he's talking about, but I don't see your modifications as anything more than confirmation of what we already knew, that you aren't going to get much hp out of just intake/exhaust/even head porting, that you'd need to go to a different head design/4V, etc. to make a big difference. I just don't know why some are assuming MG DIDN'T. I mean, they already revealed one change on the production V9.

Whether we're talking 750 or 850cc displacement, I would think the combustion chamber would have to be redesigned to get anywhere near 65 HP. These heads do not flow well at all. According to my porting guy, he did the best he could with what he had to work with.

Well, like I said I haven't paid really close attention to those who have been tackling this but I'm under the impression there are a couple who have started with the Guzzi Power or Guzzi Tech kits and pursued more power through 850cc displacement and/or 4V heads.

But I do believe that IF there is actually a test mule running around Italy with 65 hp (crank or rear wheel) that is most likely based on the V9 motor, with the different piston/head design from the V7 (Heron to the Hemi, like I said in post #71).

Now that is PURELY A GUESS on my part, but it's based on common sense (as you would seem to agree with your statement about needing to redesign the head).

[JoeW]

EDIT - Joe, in case I'm misunderstood, I should make clear that I'm not poo-pooing your desire to play with the V7, try to see what you could get out of it etc. If you're happy that's all that matters. I was really responding to Pete's comment about a reality check. I don't know what reality he's talking about, but I don't see your modifications as anything more than confirmation of what we already knew, that you aren't going to get much hp out of just intake/exhaust/even head porting, that you'd need to go to a different head design/4V, etc. to make a big difference. I just don't know why some are assuming MG DIDN'T. I mean, they already revealed one change on the production V9.

Well, like I said I haven't paid really close attention to those who have been tackling this but I'm under the impression there are a couple who have started with the Guzzi Power or Guzzi Tech kits and pursued more power through 850cc displacement and/or 4V heads.

But I do believe that IF there is actually a test mule running around Italy with 65 hp (crank or rear wheel) that is most likely based on the V9 motor, with the different piston/head design from the V7 (Heron to the Hemi, like I said in post #71).

Now that is PURELY A GUESS on my part, but it's based on common sense (as you would seem to agree with your statement about needing to redesign the head).

Kev, I am not that thin skinned and like I said, I jumped in late. I am happy with the results i got on the V7 (and so is my customer) but, I don't think I'd do it again. I think trying to get much more power out of that motor as designed is beating a dead horse. I am hopeful that the powers that be at Guzzi, DO redesign the small block to make it breath better.

[Kev m]

Kev, I am not that thin skinned and like I said, I jumped in late. I am happy with the results i got on the V7 (and so is my customer) but, I don't think I'd do it again. I think trying to get much more power out of that motor as designed is beating a dead horse.

 

I am hopeful that the powers that be at Guzzi, DO redesign the small block to make it breath better.

BUT THEY DID, it's called a V9. Now will they take that Hemi head and 850cc motor and dress it up like the current V7 line? I hope so. We are certainly hearing that from DogW.

Will they go the next step and take it to 4Vs? Again, I hope so.

We'll see. But certainly those are my guesses for this supposed test mule that is running around Italy right now.

[JeffOlson]

My dealer, AF1 Racing in Austin Texas, is the #1 dealer in the states (though Dahlonaga sometimes tries to dispute that)
They carry Moto Guzzi, Aprillia, and Vespa. They also carry Xero electric bikes and EBR, but those are a a minimal part of their business. They do well, they say that Piagiogroupamericas treats them very well, and they treat their customers very well. We live in a very mobile society and bigger and fewer dealers are the way of the future. Unless we want to ride Hondas or Harley's, I think that's ok.

I met a Piaggio regional rep a couple of months back (at Vespa Portland). He said that they use AF1 Racing as their unofficial warehouse in the US.

[jas67]

WTF is wrong with that chart? Am I not reading it correctly?

The upper Red line is the torque on the modified run, the lower Red line is the hp on the modified run?

The upper Blue line is the torque on the stock run, the lower Blue line is the hp on the stock run?

If that's true, WTF do the blue lines not start until 3k rpm, it's like the dyno wasn't recording till then. There's no way that it didn't make any power until then, so we're missing 20% of the comparative data, in a not insignificant portion of the rpm range for pulling away from a stop and average riding.

Now when you look at the rpm range that I spend most of the time in 3-4k or even 3-5k I see almost no difference.

The colors on the chart are kind of hard to see on my crappy monitor here at work (my crappy old eyes could be a factor).

I think I may have been seeing both the lower curves as the before Torque and HP curves, and the higher ones the after.
That, of course, makes no sense now that I take another look at it.

[Kev m]

The colors on the chart are kind of hard to see on my crappy monitor here at work (my crappy old eyes could be a factor).

I think I may have been seeing both the lower curves as the before Torque and HP curves, and the higher ones the after.
That, of course, makes no sense now that I take another look at it.

LOL, so you need glasses and coffee! 

[jas67]

LOL, so you need glasses and coffee! 

Yep -- and sometimes a little sumptin in the coffee 

[jas67]

Yes, I do believe a large, well-funded, multi-brand/multi-revenue stream dealership is all but necessary for Guzzi dealers to succeed these days (with few exceptions). The problem being that many of said dealerships often don't give a single brand (especially one in their minority) the time of day, so something is lost there in quality of customer service and attention to details.

Our local dealer in South Central PA, Europa Macchina only carries Moto Guzzi.   But, they do have another business, that is repair and restoration of high-end vintage European sports cars.    I would guess that is their main money maker, and that Moto Guzzi is more of a side/hobby business.   BUT -- they do not treat it as such.    Unlike the big mega dealers who could care less about a low volume make such as Moto Guzzi, Europa Macchina are passionate about Moto Guzzi, and give first class sales and service.

I think this is the only viable business model for a Moto Guzzi dealer, other than being a multi-brand dealer.   That is, to have another (or more than one) revenue stream, which can keep them alive through the lean times.    That said, I get the impression from conversations with the owners that Piaggio USA's increasing floor plan requirements have put a strain on them.     I like them a lot, and almost feel guilty for having bought all four Guzzis that I've owned used.   If you live in PA or Maryland, it is definitely worth checking them out.

[Kev m]

Our local dealer in South Central PA, Europa Macchina only carries Moto Guzzi.   But, they do have another business, that is repair and restoration of high-end vintage European sports cars.    I would guess that is their main money maker, and that Moto Guzzi is more of a side/hobby business.   BUT -- they do not treat it as such.    Unlike the big mega dealers who could care less about a low volume make such as Moto Guzzi, Europa Macchina are passionate about Moto Guzzi, and give first class sales and service.

I think this is the only viable business model for a Moto Guzzi dealer, other than being a multi-brand dealer.  That is, to have another (or more than one) revenue stream, which can keep them alive through the lean times.    That said, I get the impression from conversations with the owners that Piaggio USA's increasing floor plan requirements have put a strain on them.     I like them a lot, and almost feel guilty for having bought all four Guzzis that I've owned used.   If you live in PA or Maryland, it is definitely worth checking them out.

Be it a large multi-brand dealer or a dealer with other revenue streams (which is what MPH always was also) I'm sorta thinking that's the same basic business model. I.E. you can't go it alone.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

That said, I get the impression from conversations with the owners that Piaggio USA's increasing floor plan requirements have put a strain on them.     

This is exactly why Carl @ Winchester Motorsports has no new Guzzis on the floor. He'll order one for you, but can't afford to meet Piaggio's demands.

[professor]

Kev, I live within a short driving of six or seven Guzzi dealers. ALL are as you say. Multi dealers. One is pure Italian products, none are just Guzzi. Just finished reading a very detailed history of Vespa. Explains the way Piaggio thinks. And why we get frustrated with them. Vespa shaped the company and it's success.

[professor]

Just got off the phone with the largest MG dealer in England. Learned something interesting. This is not law yet, but is proposed in the EU. All A2 bikes must be (Future) built from the ground up as A2 compliant. They cannot be modified and must be to use their term,  tamper proof. So, the standards are never compromised. Penalties if you do so and are caught by an inspector.   HP is limited to A2 regs and fixed by engine design.

Second, if MG has a 65HP V7 (they heard the same rumor from Italians close to the factory)  it most certainly, in their opinion is not running Heron heads. It is most likely a four valve head traditional with modern combustion chamber. The camshaft and ECU are as well upgraded. Exhaust?? EU compliant is not required on proto-types from the factory, but must be compliant upon manufacturing for resale to the public. Now, if this 65Hp is based upon the current V7 design, then it would run afoul of the proposed legislation or it seems so. I guess getting this to move forward is more difficult that it appears at first blush.

Not living in Europe limits our perspective. And I thought California was over regulated.

[Dogwalker]

Just got off the phone with the largest MG dealer in England. Learned something interesting. This is not law yet, but is proposed in the EU. All A2 bikes must be (Future) built from the ground up as A2 compliant.

There are always tons of proposal of change of any rule, but the actual one is only two years old, and the precedent one lasted 14 years. I would not hold my breath for a change in the European driving Licence rules, at least for the next ten years.

[professor]

Good perspective.  Government always grinds slowly. Nothing is certain. Whether MG is influenced by this possibliity or not, I could only guess.
I notice some of the British, Swiss and German MGs are lapping the Isle of Mann on the far side of 100 MPH. So, like Dr. John they have figured them out and certainly how to get the last ounce out.

[mwrenn]

I am enjoying the different perspectives in this thread.  Always nice to see dyno graphs that tell the tale.  I think it is important to nail down horsepower numbers based on engine output at the crank vs. rear wheel horsepower.  It seems like the numbers from Guzzi are consistently measured at the crank.
When I hear of a small block in northern Italy making 65 hp, I have to wonder where that number is measured.  I assume that it is crank horsepower.  Allowing for another assumption, the loss of power due to the drivetrain, I would guess that this bike is probably making between 55 to 60 horsepower at the rear wheel.  The lowest rear wheel horsepower number for my 4V V7 Classic was 53.  If nothing else the 4V engine demonstrates that the 750 is capable of good performance if you can move more air through it. 
I can't wait until the V9 arrives, a perfect candidate for a 4V swap!  Here is a dyno chart of the 4V as compared to a stock 2V 750.  Just over 40% increase.



Here is the all gear run, RWHP came out a little higher on this one, 54.99.

[oldbike54]

 I'm holding out for the 66 HP model 

  Dusty

[Vasco DG]

The laws of physics are a hard taskmaster. Much easier to just use a dyno with Shetland ponies inside.

Pete

[oldbike54]

The laws of physics are a hard taskmaster. Much easier to just use a dyno with Shetland ponies inside.

Pete

 Yep , many a engineer on a large displacement Vtwin project started out shooting for 100 HP to end up with something closer to 70 Shetland ponies .

  Dusty

[jas67]

I am enjoying the different perspectives in this thread.  Always nice to see dyno graphs that tell the tale.  I think it is important to nail down horsepower numbers based on engine output at the crank vs. rear wheel horsepower.  It seems like the numbers from Guzzi are consistently measured at the crank.
When I hear of a small block in northern Italy making 65 hp, I have to wonder where that number is measured.  I assume that it is crank horsepower.  Allowing for another assumption, the loss of power due to the drivetrain, I would guess that this bike is probably making between 55 to 60 horsepower at the rear wheel.  The lowest rear wheel horsepower number for my 4V V7 Classic was 53.  If nothing else the 4V engine demonstrates that the 750 is capable of good performance if you can move more air through it. 
I can't wait until the V9 arrives, a perfect candidate for a 4V swap!  Here is a dyno chart of the 4V as compared to a stock 2V 750.  Just over 40% increase.

Great job!   I'd love a V7 with 55 HP to the rear wheel! 

[mwrenn]

Great job!   I'd love a V7 with 55 HP to the rear wheel!

It really improves the bike, makes it all that more enjoyable to ride. 

[Doppelgaenger]

At what point do you have to start worrying about shaft jacking when dealing with a high power v7?

[Cam3512]

It really improves the bike, makes it all that more enjoyable to ride. 

You are the one working with Todd on these smallblocks, right?

Is that alleged test mule Racer spotted in Italy related to your work, or is Guzzi trying to do the same thing?

[Lank]

so if I put a bottle on one and give it a 20 shot once in a while I will have a 60 HP RWHP V7, for as often as I need that ultimate output would take it just fine.. Hell a 10 shot would be a 25 percent increase...I ran 50 to 70 Shot on my ZX with only a couple bars on the PC, just a quarter mile at a time  (bike was built for the standing mile at 210MPH/guarter 165 MPH with 250 HP with NOS)   held together too..for the V7 probably don't need (all that) lol , power so bad tho maybe will stick with the 39 RWHP option, too damn old to go too damn fast ...Of course a little turbo would do the same thing, .Actually a turbo would probably be a better option than cams, heads, compression changes...

[pyoungbl]

Mwrenn's dyno chart is certainly impressive.  Although the hp figure is eye catching the torque is what really gets my attention.  Getting 30% more torque at 4000 rpm.....right where I'd want more punch for daily riding....is a whole lot more useful than a huge hp number at stratospheric rpm.  As a comparison, look at some of the 600 cc bikes that are cranking out 100+ hp at something like 10,000 rpm.

Peter Y.

[sign216]

Nitrous.



just throwing it out there

[Chuck in Indiana]

Nitrous.



just throwing it out there

already been mentioned 

so if I put a bottle on one