Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: LBC Tenni on December 11, 2015, 11:02:15 PM
-
If you are a US owner of a Griso, Stelvio, or Norge with flat tappets and would like to see Piaggio forced to do the right thing and recall them, here is a link to the complaint I filed with NHTSA. In the blue box, select keyword and enter GRiSO in the search field. This will bring up my complaint. Please feel free to cut and paste from my complaint and file your own complaint. If enough of us do this, NHTSA will open an investigation and Piaggio will have to answer. Please spread the word to other forums as well. Strength in numbers. Piaggio will ignore their customers, but they can't ignore the feds.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues
-
I don't think NHTSA handles non safety related issues . Might be tough to get them to consider this safety related .
Dusty
-
If you continue to ride with flat tappets, your engine will eventually fail from the tappet wear. The potential for this to happen while the bike is being ridden seems like a safety concern to me. My complaint includes this point and any others filed should as well. NHTSA has issued many recalls with lesser safety implications, several on cars I have owned over the years, so I don't see this as a stretch at all.
-
If you continue to ride with flat tappets, your engine will eventually fail from the tappet wear. The potential for this to happen while the bike is being ridden seems like a safety concern to me. My complaint includes this point and any others filed should as well. NHTSA has issued many recalls with lesser safety implications, several on cars I have owned over the years, so I don't see this as a stretch at all.
:thumb: :1:
This is a safety issue. The potential loss of engine power while on the public roadways is a safety issue. A motorcycle relies on engine power during operation to remain upright and a failure to do so increases greatly the chances of a collision or fall. Unlike a car which can remain stable in the absence of engine power, a motorcycle cannot under a variety of circumstances.
The case has merit. It should be pursued. It has little to do with quality, it has a lot to do with knowing that the only means of providing power for locomotion to maintain upright stability during movement was faulty and yet MG continued to sell the motorcycles. The engine also provides through its components, charging to maintain electrical systems including some which are directly safety related.
Fixing the flat tappet issue is not maintenance, it is a repair of defective design and/or manufacture.
Far better the press the claim than sit around with thumbs up the nethers and fingers playing pocket pool next to the money you'll pay to fix something that should be addressed by Moto Guzzi.
About time. I have a roller bike but support this effort. The only reason this stuff happens is because they think they can do it and they rely on and leverage the loyalty of all their customers, shameful.
-
Well said NP. They knew the flat tappets were doomed in 2010 when they made changes to facilitate install of the roller upgrade kits. Yet they continued putting the flats in thousands of bikes until mid-2012. Reprehensible, unethical conduct and they should be held accountable.
-
A motorcycle relies on engine power during operation to remain upright and a failure to do so increases greatly the chances of a collision or fall. Unlike a car which can remain stable in the absence of engine power, a motorcycle cannot under a variety of circumstances.
While I would like to see Piaggio get forced to 'Come to the party' if you use logic like that in your argument you are doomed to failure. It's one of the most bizarre suppositions I've ever read!
If you are able to ride a bike a seriously compromised top end to the point of failure you would not only have to be deaf but also completely insensitive. The big problem is that there are probably people out there who would just on principle! Natural selection in action!
Pete
-
You have to think like a bureaucrat Pete! :evil:
-
There was a legal case brought against Piaggio UK from a Stelvio owner claiming his bike was unfit for purpose but it was unsuccessful. Piaggio claimed it was the dealers responsibility from what I can remember. There was also another case being put together in Europe some time ago.
I don't think a case based on safety issues will be successful either. Guzzi took a conscious decision to supply faulty goods and would have not done so without covering all legal loop holes.
But one thing I do like about the US legal system is that it certainly has more teeth than most countries so good luck to anyone that pursues the matter.
-
not a safety issue at all, the loss in power goes very slow. You can easy drive 1000 miles with broken tappets. Not that it is best for the engine, but you won't notice it at all.
-
I agree, not a safety issue and not under NHTSA's control.
-
It appears that Tenni is right. The NHTSA is responsible for govt mandated recalls:
https://www.recalls.gov/nhtsa.html
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) of the U.S. Department of Transportation provides recall information including vehicle and equipment campaigns from 1966 to present. The campaigns include motor vehicle products which experienced a safety-related defect or did not comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards:
motor vehicles & related equipment child safety seats tires
or................. .........
The EPA's Office of Transportation and Air Quality is responsible for ensuring that motor vehicles comply with the federal emission standards throughout the useful life of those vehicles. EPA can require manufacturers to recall vehicles when a substantial number of a class or category of vehicles fail to meet the emission standards. Automobile manufacturers can voluntarily issue recalls for emission-related problems.
-
While I would like to see Piaggio get forced to 'Come to the party' if you use logic like that in your argument you are doomed to failure. It's one of the most bizarre suppositions I've ever read!
If you are able to ride a bike a seriously compromised top end to the point of failure you would not only have to be deaf but also completely insensitive. The big problem is that there are probably people out there who would just on principle! Natural selection in action!
Pete
Except that how does anyone know if their top end is going unless they tear it apart, some wisdom from WG infests everyone who buys the bikes?
Ever had an engine stop running while fully laden, two up in a very sharp turn, heavy bumper to bumper traffic going just fast enough for a decent lean angle? I have, it ain't fun and not falling is more luck than skill. Plenty of others experienced the same thing with DL1000 VStoms that had a map that makes any map on an MG look like a gift from the gods.
Here us the way it works. You throw all arguments at the case, not just the ones someone thinks are good. The game is numbers, more people, more arguments, more repair bills, more noise.
Like I said, sitting around hoping some sense strikes Moto Guzzi right and they do the right thing is ridiculous.
Or, everyone can just go along with the A,B or C screw job they are shoving out the door at the expense of those who spent good money on their bikes and who then got shafted.
It always happens, the many will benefit from the few who take a company like MG to task.
For those that disagree, by all means, when MG does the repairs at no cost and offer reimbursement for those that paid for it out if pocket, feel free to refuse the money or the repair.
The only failure is in not trying, that is a 100% deal. The path of least resistance are those who do nothing.
-
I'm sure having DLC & metal particles floating inside an engine of a motorcycle that can go 125mph is perfectly fine - not ! Pictures of the big end shelves in the 8V thread can be provided as evidence for the case. I'm sure a lawyer could connect the dots and state that a bike will eventually throw a rod...l
How would a knowledgable Guzzi owning father feel if his 19 year old kid showed up one night with a new to him flat tappet Griso with 70,000miles with an open exhaust pipe drowning all the engine noise and went off with his Ninja riding friends eh?
-
They wouldn't be a very good lawyer if they didn't check their facts.
Pete
-
NHTSA has done recalls on cars I have owned over the years, that didn't seem to have safety implications at all. If enough owners make enough noise about a problem that can cause premature engine failure, no matter how slow, they will take a look. If they find the manufacturer knowingly put defective parts in thousands of engines, they will issue a recall.
What is 100% certain is nothing will happen if we just sit around complaining amongst ourselves.
It'll take you 5 minutes. There is nothing to lose. File a complaint. Let the naysayers nay.
-
Would be good to find owner in California willing to lasonmake an claim with Bereau of Consumer Affairs.
The consumer rights protections in California are very good, well funded and often successful.
I do not know if the failure affects emissions but wouldn't be too hard to have one tested to see. Another avenue since it could bring in another agency, especially CalEPA and CARB. Just some letters with test result attached. Would take a California bike though.
-
It appears that Tenni is right. The NHTSA is responsible for govt mandated recalls:
https://www.recalls.gov/nhtsa.html
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) of the U.S. Department of Transportation provides recall information including vehicle and equipment campaigns from 1966 to present. The campaigns include motor vehicle products which experienced a safety-related defect or did not comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards:
motor vehicles & related equipment child safety seats tires
Yes, SAFETY recalls. This doesn't seem to fit the bill.
For NHSTA to issue a recall for an engine piece, it would have to be shown that that piece's failure was catastrophic AND that it caused or has a substantial risk to cause death or bodily injury. In the past they haven't recalled motorcycles that suddenly shutoff when riding 80 MPH and that seems to me to be more hazardous than a tappet.
-
So... let's do some math . What , maybe 1000 owners in the US , and how many have had an accident because of the tappet failure , any ? Something tells me this effort may cause more harm than good .
Dusty
-
I don't think it will do any harm. I just dunno if it will do any good.
As I've said before though consider as well the fact that if there is a full recall on all 8V's it's going to cost your dealer big time so a bit of consideration there wouldn't go amiss.
Pete
-
I don't think it will do any harm. I just dunno if it will do any good.
As I've said before though consider as well the fact that if there is a full recall on all 8V's it's going to cost your dealer big time so a bit of consideration there wouldn't go amiss.
Pete
That was a consideration in my comment . Really , a letter writing campaign directly to the mothership might be more effective . Seems as a group we are a bit reluctant to involve what amounts to an outsider in a battle with Piaggio . I think most of us prefer a more direct method,
we are funny that way .
Dusty
-
Really , a letter writing campaign directly to the mothership might be more effective .
Dusty
Or maybe I'll just wait and see if Santa and the elves put in a roller kit for me. :grin:
-
Yes, SAFETY recalls. This doesn't seem to fit the bill.
For NHSTA to issue a recall for an engine piece, it would have to be shown that that piece's failure was catastrophic AND that it caused or has a substantial risk to cause death or bodily injury. In the past they haven't recalled motorcycles that suddenly shutoff when riding 80 MPH and that seems to me to be more hazardous than a tappet.
The best path is not to defeat yourself before you get started. Make the claim, let them figure it out.
This isn't one bike or a few, it is all of them so manufactured. Big difference between some bikes doing something and all if them.
-
So... let's do some math . What , maybe 1000 owners in the US , and how many have had an accident because of the tappet failure , any ? Something tells me this effort may cause more harm than good .
Dusty
What kind of harm? If it is about getting info out, this site has already done that. If it is damaging a reputation, those are built on good service, good product and good support
Either they have it or they don't. When has not saying something gotten something fixed?
Let's put it this way. Had MG stepped up and taken care of the customers, there would be no tappet threads, no bad PR and instead they'd have glowing praises about how they did the right thing. Every flat tappet bike owner would have great things to say. Instead, the story will be how owners had to fight tooth and nail to get this addressed. Then, it all fails, how many owners are going to keep those bikes unless they dig into their own pockets? Happy campers? Not. Let those who say its no big deal offer to pay for those who look at $1000+ as a significant impact. Who else gets to judge that if they aren't willing or can't pay for this FU that they shouldn't have the bike?
They had a choice. It is their reputation to lose, their liability and accountability to incur.
-
If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....
Pete
-
If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....
Pete
Yep , let's deal with some reality here folks .
Dusty
-
If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....
Pete
It shouldnt cost you a thing. This is the gitcha that MG has relued uoon. Pete, people here get to know and trust you. You have by yourself put out more good will than MG ever has, all by your lonesome.
I don't put it past MG lawyers to look that this and take vets that because you get hit a lot if damaged owners will give them a pass. What a way to leverage other people and that my friend, makes it all the more despicable. Like hiding behind the innocent to cover their sorry asses.
Moto Guzzi sold the product, they knew at some point about the problem. For bikes sold before they knew about it, okay, some understanding. Things can and do happen. Some good will on their part, maybe to cover parts.
For every bike they sold knowing or should have known the problem existed, they should eat it like like dry cake, they took people's money fast enough.
There is no woe is me poor Moto Guzzi and let's turn a blind eye because we like the bikes themselves. They made and sold lemons, time to pucker up.
Dealers too have recourse. One at a time you get shafted and the way it works, WG site of loyalty or not is that once it comes down to money from a customers pocket guess who wins? If MG is shafting good dealers, and I think there is enough evidence to show that might be true, then all the more reason to deal with this rather than let it go.
Dealers can use the recourse they have available, there are always options.
If the idea is that a dealer can't sustain themselves doing business with MG, not because they can't sell product but because of things like this, why should the customer suck it up? Customers are people too, not just an endless revenue source.
None of this had to be. Now that it is however, it should be a no prisoners process, make them fix the problem.
If this doesn't get fixed, what is the next one? Why did this happen the way it did? Hostages for lack of a better term. No one wants to screw over people like you so MG gets a pass. Then we wonder why these things keep happening. Not too hard to figure out.
If they can't get a few thousand bikes right then just maybe what comes is really needed.
-
All of that is fine and good , but NHTSA has no control over corporate policy . Are we willing to crush dealers , or should the problem be dealt with more directly ?
Dusty
-
Yesterday when I took my Norge in for service I asked the cost to make mine a roller and was told they would not do it. If the bike made 10,000 to 15,000 miles it would probably not fail. Since the cost was so high to fix it they have chosen to let the customers bikes self destruct and then would be there to rebuild.
It would appear they don't believe in being pro-active.
-
If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....
Pete
Did you sign something to that effect ?
Odd thing to do IMHO, possibly arguable in court, plead ignorance/coercion/torture or something.
No way can it be your responsibility to pay, if you want to, fair enough, give freely but not a legal obligation.
Must be several thousand need doing @ $300 to Pete, quite big money to me.
Good on ya, hope your wife happy with that deal. Mine would laugh , running .
Insurance for Guzzi 8V has got way dearer recently, apparently fire risk is huge !!!
-
I'm by no means up on legal processes, but most states in the USA have Lemon Laws and to my mind this may qualify as being in that category as a avenue of recourse for some.
-
Ok o great, wise, litigator. Explain to me, a small independent, one man shop, how I am going to leverage Piaggio into paying me my full hourly rate to diagnose and fix every bike I get through?
There is this wonderful naive belief among many that you get paid for warranty. You don't. You get paid nothing for diagnosis time and are credited 'X' number of hours for the repair, calculated by them, not on how long it actually takes and you aren't ever actually paid money, it is given to you as a credit against your parts account! Whoopee duck! The 'Pay Rate' is also about 2/3rds my hourly rate. Oh, no payment for the time of filing and then clarifying issues on the claim either.
Yes, the fact that machines continued to be sold when the problem was known to be insolvable is unconscionable, I've stated that many times. But it would be nice if just occasionally there wasn't this blustering "Me, Me, Me!" Outrage because it makes me feel like the meat in the bloody sandwich!
By far the easiest thing for me to do would be to do as Piaggio do and just deny it is a problem. I don't find that ethically acceptable. But all this high-horse screeching is getting on my tits.
Pete
-
Never mind, I see Pete just beat me to press, and answered with far more clarity than I did, no need to read the rest of this post.
I'm not sure, but I think what Pete is at least partially alluding to, is Piaggio, like many MFG, don't pay the real cost of warranty work, especially on bigger jobs like this. They often pay in credit, and its usually less than is actually deserved.
And yes, that's not the customers fault or problem, however, if you respect the position that dealers and agents are put in you can see why they might not be thrilled and the thought of being swamped with warranty work.
-
My dealer is the opposite. I have spoke to them and they are willing to do what they can whenever I am ready. Probably take it to them over winter to check it out. No obvious signs of a problem at 30000 miles, but I could probably have a cylinder fall off without noticing it.
-
I'm by no means up on legal processes, but most states in the USA have Lemon Laws and to my mind this may qualify as being in that category as a avenue of recourse for some.
Most states lemon laws only apply if a vehicle is repeatedly repaired during the warranty period , not the case here .
Dusty
-
Just a few comments here. I am not knocking LBC Tenni for trying but I do think Pete and the others that feel its a lost cause are right. During all of the back and forth involved with my dealer in getting me the kit and a reimbursement for it a few things that Piaggio did may have been just enough to cover their butts. They did refer to the replacement as a factory recall all be it one with " conditions". Those being that the bike was demonstrating signs of a problem and that once opened up damage was found and pictures of same provided and a claim filed. They did also stipulate that each claim would be decided on a case by case basis. That left many owners with the gamble of opening up the bike to see if a problem was happening. To bad it was not known until some months later here in 2015 that they would all show damage and need to be converted. I opened up my bike even though it showed no signs (it was out of warranty anyway) and of course found missing DLC. Pictures were sent to my dealer ( the dealer was actually 800 miles away) and he filed the claim for me. I bought the B kit needed and installed it myself. A month or so later the claim was approved and I received the money to cover the cost of the kit. So in my case Piaggio did kind of address the issue. Still lame as hell and in my opinion this has damaged Guzzi's reputation and made it obvious to all that Guzzi is these days just a division of large corporation that is not to worried about dealer support or customer relations. But that's about it.
-
My dealer is the opposite. I have spoke to them and they are willing to do what they can whenever I am ready. Probably take it to them over winter to check it out. No obvious signs of a problem at 30000 miles, but I could probably have a cylinder fall off without noticing it.
At the moment any flat tappet 8V that comes into my shop I strongly recommend the owner stump up the couple of hours to have me inspect the top end. Since I revised my opinion on the issue and started suggesting this I haven't had a single machine in that wasn't showing damage. Some of them, like mine, weren't showing any of the tell-tales I've come to recognise as evidence that damage was occurring but inspection proved that it was. Live and learn.
In the vast majority of these cases I have been able to get the claim approved. It's been touch and go sometimes and there have been a couple that have left a really nasty taste in the mouth but overall I've been able to get the vast majority sorted. I have a particularly difficult one coming in this week because it was sold by the ex Canberra dealer and they never bothered giving the owner his service books but I'll try my hardest to get it approved. Really though it's like playing Russian Roulette with Piaggio holding the bullets!
Not all dealers want to be bothered with that sort of thing though. Many of them, and their mechanics, still seem to be blissfully unaware of the issue. I'm currently trying to get one of the mechanics at one of the largest dealerships in the country up to speed. Dunno if it will work, he's a nice enough guy. His boss OTOH.......
-
Yesterday when I took my Norge in for service I asked the cost to make mine a roller and was told they would not do it. If the bike made 10,000 to 15,000 miles it would probably not fail. Since the cost was so high to fix it they have chosen to let the customers bikes self destruct and then would be there to rebuild.
It would appear they don't believe in being pro-active.
That is beyond stupid!
-
Most states lemon laws only apply if a vehicle is repeatedly repaired during the warranty period , not the case here .
Dusty
I stand corrected Dusty as I am indeed not a "mighty litigator" and just an interested spectator of an unfortunate pissing match that will not have a good outcome for anyone. Leaving now with my tail between my legs and back into my mole hole.
-
I stand corrected Dusty as I am indeed not a "mighty litigator" and just an interested spectator of an unfortunate pissing match that will not have a good outcome for anyone. Leaving now with my tail between my legs and back into my mole hole.
Wasn't meant that way at all , no need to place your tail between your legs :laugh: We are in fact looking for ideas here , hell , I have no inkling of how this should be dealt with , Pete is on the front lines , I have to respect his input . It is frustrating for sure .
Dusty
-
Most states lemon laws only apply if a vehicle is repeatedly repaired during the warranty period , not the case here .
Dusty
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
Semantics.
Here is the thing, this is business. Just look what happened, it comes to some very well respected people who dedicate their free time, a great value to many here, gratis.
If Pete is getting hosed for $300 on each machine he fixes where there to be a general recall to fix it, that means Moto Guzzi is in effect making that $300 and putting it into their pocket.
The only reason Moto Guzzi exists, the only reason its dealers exist is because of the people buying new motorcycles. The used bike market isn't putting much money into anyone's pocket and parts sales wouldn't sustain anyone alone.
Yes, dealers do take a hit for warranty work. For this reason I happen to take the Norge in for what many here would say is something to be done by the owner. Fork oil change? Dealer. Brake and clutch fluid change? Dealer. Throttle body sync and valves? Dealer. Tire change? Dealer. Lubes other than engine oil? Dealer. So when it comes time for warranty work, hey, I've also contributed far and above whatever hit they might take. That is me though, not everyone but as someone wise once told me:
You are number one, never forget your number.
-
"Yes, dealers do take a hit for warranty work. For this reason I happen to take the Norge in for what many here would say is something to be done by the owner. "
Really, you take your Norge in for work you would otherwise do yourself, but for your desire to give your local Guzzi dealer the business??? It has little to do with you not wanting to do it yourself? Good on you then, any Guzzi dealer would love to have more customers like you. :thumb:
-
NP , if you are going to apply a law , it must be applicable . In this case it isn't . Arguing after the fact doesn't work .
Dusty
-
Both Honda and Polaris had recalls this year for engines that might stop running during operation. The stated problem that could result?
The engine could stop running increasing the potential for a crash. The precedent is there.
For Honda, a bad starter switch. For Polaris, the engine could seize. In both cases, the loss if engine operation was determined to be a safety issue, hence the recalls.
The lemon law and a safety recall are two different things. Furthermore, a bike can be a lemon from the owner's perspective or anyone else's perspective. I was not arguing for application of the lemon law, I do maintain that the bikes with flat tappet problems are lemons and I never used that word to argue the application of the claim going to the NTSA.
Do a simple search for engine related motorcycle recalls, you'll see that engine operation failures are a safety issue, its not even a question.
The difference is that both Honda and Polaris are fixing the problem at Jo cost to the customer.
Why anyone would not want to see Moto Guzzi repair all flat tappet bikes free if charge to the owner is strange. It isn't going to break MG and regardless, it is better to screw the customers who bought the affected bikes?
One strategy I'd suggest to the OP is to find an affected owner in California. A simple website would so it along with some Google Words ads. A small investment to find all affected owners, propose the solution and other remedies. Those remedies being left to the imagination.
Then let the process go forward since the wheels are in motion.
-
Why anyone would not want to see Moto Guzzi repair all flat tappet bikes free if charge to the owner is strange. It isn't going to break MG and regardless, it is better to screw the customers who bought the affected bikes?
Did you read a word I wrote?
-
I think Tenni is right. He's the only one trying to fix this. If I had one I'd be right there with him.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ep-xgd_eETE/hqdefault.jpg)
Bluto: Hey! What's all this laying around stuff? Why are you all still laying around here for?
Stork: What the hell are we supposed to do, ya moron? We're all expelled. There's nothing to fight for anymore.
D-Day: [to Bluto] Let it go. War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: [to Boon] Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard of something to say]
Bluto: The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[Bluto runs out, alone; then returns]
Bluto: What the f$!k happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...
Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.
D-Day: [stands up] Yeah, I agree. Let's go get 'em.
Boon: Let's do it.
Bluto: [shouting] "Let's do it"!
-
Dealers are between a rock and a hard place on this one. Warranty work can be a big deciding factor whether a dealer stays with a brand or not. Two of my local dealers have dropped Ducati and Triumph in the past due to the factories attitude to warranty work so it isn't unique to Guzzi.
The guy I deal with has a similar attitude to Pete Roper in that there is a problem and it needs sorting. He has a good relationship with the factory and no trouble getting approval for warranty work and is quietly mopping up all the flat tappet problems. But he is in the minority of one as far as I can tell. Maybe his business model allows him to behave in the way he does because his focus is more on servicing and spares rather than a large showroom.
-
It isn't going to break MG and regardless
snip
I'd say it could. Just my opinion, but I think they are trying to quietly sweep the problem under the rug. That's what they did with the Lario back in the day. I know of several people that "had" a Lario, and haven't had a Guzzi since..
-
Seems to me that even if they are forced into a recall , in the end the consumer will pick up the costs, when Piaggio factors the costs into their bottom line. That means higher prices for new bikes and parts not to mention the hit that good dealers like Pete will take on the mandated service work. They too will have to recoup the costs somehow . I can't quite make the safety connection to a tappet failure but I am sure the right lawyer probably could. Now a swing arm failure that's another story. Personally I think Piaggio has implemented a fair policy in regards to failures and those who have done scheduled services are being provided a fix. I doubt things would be any different, and maybe even worse with other brands .
-
yamaha 2015 R1 are being recalled for the transmissions as the gears could break and cause a lock up. owners are advised to not ride the bikes. this is a safety recall.
-
The best path is not to defeat yourself before you get started. Make the claim, let them figure it out.
This isn't one bike or a few, it is all of them so manufactured. Big difference between some bikes doing something and all if them.
But you ARE defeated before you start since a problem like this is not even part of what they are tasked to involve themselves with.
-
But you ARE defeated before you start since a problem like this is not even part of what they are tasked to involve themselves with.
One more time. Search for engine related motorcycle recalls, plenty if them including currently active. Engine failure is acknowledged as a safety issue, to say or imply otherwise disregards the facts as recognized by the motorcycle manufacturers themselves.
Then, whenever you go after something, go all the way, not some half heated one shot Jonnie. It doesn't matter if the NTSA won't issue a recall. It makes noise.
I worked for a governmental regulatory agency and you will be amazed at what they will address. They also talk to and cooperate with other agencies and some of them do engage in issues like this.
The concerns it seems some have over damaging the marque or whatever is understandable but let's not forget who created the problem, who is doing little to fix it and who seems to care less. That would be Moto Guzzi.
The name of the game is pressure. Pressure is often a solution that works and no one gets to formal judgements and such.
Anyone with a flat tappet bike is free to refuse remedy if the claims are successful. Dig into your own pocket to fix the engine with the satisfaction that you did what you think is right.
-
well said NP.
I hope the naysayers will note your insight.
-
Yeah, search for "Engine related motorcycle recalls" and you know what you'll find?
Some recalls initiated by the manufacturers. Honda, Polaris, Yamaha, Suzuki. Didn't see any by NHTSA.
The poster who said you all should direct your complaints to M.G. IMO, has a better plan.
-
Perhaps I missed it, but why on earth would a dealer or mechanic not be paid for their warranty and service work, either by the factory or by the customer?
I understand how lawyers can be made to work for free (because, as officers of the court, they cannot just quit if their clients are not paying them; they need the court's permission to withdraw, and sometimes it is not granted), but how can a dealer or mechanic be made to work for free?
-
Contractural obligation if you are a dealer or service agent. It's not for free, it's just wholly inadequate. The thing is warranty is supposed to cover rare occurrences of problems due to poor manufacture or assembly but it is often used as a way of cheaply fixing major screw-ups. eg the Cappo output shaft fiasco!
Pete
-
Dig into your own pocket to fix the engine with the satisfaction that you did what you think is right.
That's the plan. Pete's got my Stelvio now, waiting for an A Kit - waiting, waiting :cool:
For me it's not a matter of right or wrong by MG.
The fact is I KNEW the flats could fail, although it was a very rare thing when I bought mine. So I got the services done knowing it could be my only come back - first time I've done that on any bike, especially Guzzi and this is my third Guzzi.
So I'll not be wingeing and whining, I'll get on with life, wait for Pete to what he does, then go and ride hard knowing the bottom end could fall out of the thing in the future.
Do I have the money to throw away on this? No! I'm a penniless preacher, but there are a whole lot more important things in life than a few hundred $s. And don't talk to me about principles, if you knew the flats had problems when you bought, suck it up and move on!! And if you didn't, suck it up and move on anyway because most of us are too old to be letting this tear our guts apart.
Just my 2 bobs worth :thumb:
-
Contractural obligation if you are a dealer or service agent. It's not for free, it's just wholly inadequate. The thing is warranty is supposed to cover rare occurrences of problems due to poor manufacture or assembly but it is often used as a way of cheaply fixing major screw-ups. eg the Cappo output shaft fiasco!
Pete
And that right there is why sometimes, a lawsuit seeking monetary compensation works better, the dealer is out of the picture other than if the bike owner goes to them for the repair.
Once the remedy works through dealership channels, the factory can milk dealers to starvation.unfortun antly, seeking the other option means that owners pay for the repair and then engage in litigation to recover for damages.
There is no easy way, only the crappy way no matter how it turns out.
-
Most people who bought flat tappet bikes didn't do so thinking or knowing this problem would come up.
Those owners that bought with the information up front, sure, eat the cost as you knew what was going to happen. Here is the thing though, Internet forums, while helpful are not the grail when it comes to knowing all and not everyone scours the forums for information be fore buying, there are a lot of hysterics on forums too.
If everyone knew about the problem, the solution was simple, let them sit on dealer floorspace until they sold for next to nothing and take your chances or have the upgrade done before the bike ever left the dealer.
Yes, the search reveals recalls for failed engine operation, not by the NTSA but that wasn't and isn't the point, the point was the recall. Had a single owner crashed and that been attributed to loss of engine operation it could get ugle and the manufacturers knowing this along with heading off a lit if bad PR decided to recall those bikes.
If Honda has a problem and doesn't fix it, someone else comes along and uses the opportunity to lure dissatisfied customers away. MG with so few buyers to start with probably doesn't care, dissatisfied Honda buyers aren't running to buy Moto Guzzi bikes.
Writing to Moto Guzzi isn't going to do a thing. If it would, it already would have. It will take pressure and that means throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
A recall, when it comes to bikes doesn't look bad or reflect poorly on the brand, not fixing a problem affecting every bike within a certain model and configuration is what dies the damage.
No, the visitors to WG keep doing what they are doing but that isn't everyone, not close. MG wants to attract new customers and while new models can do some of that, the demographic being targeted, the younger crowd, aren't usually the wrenching types or the ones who want to fork out significant sums to fix major problems that should not exist.
If you try to sell you flat tappet bike, your market got a lot smaller. There are people who won't touch them even if you did the upgrade. How do they know you did it right as we know that other things can be affected.
I'm not a mechanic nor do I want to fix major components on a bike that should not need fixing, easier to buy something else. Anything can happen and if my Norge were to eat its main bearing after warranty is out, well that is on me. If every Norge was eating its main bearing just after warranty, a whole different story if MG knew it would happen.
Pretty sure we'd like to see MG prosper, develop lots if new bikes in the future but that isn't going to happen if they won't address these kinds of problems with honesty and integrity.
Riding a Moto Guzzi should mean more than the $ in your bank account and your willingness to strap a mattress on your front side so that MG can ballast its bottom line by going through your backside.
-
Riding a Moto Guzzi should mean more than the $ in your bank account and your willingness to strap a mattress on your front side so that MG can ballast its bottom line by going through your backside.
Could someone please rephrase this sentence . It is written far to eloquently. :grin: :grin:
-
Contractural obligation if you are a dealer or service agent. It's not for free, it's just wholly inadequate. The thing is warranty is supposed to cover rare occurrences of problems due to poor manufacture or assembly but it is often used as a way of cheaply fixing major screw-ups. eg the Cappo output shaft fiasco!
Pete
What hourly labor rate do they pay?
-
So I'll not be wingeing and whining, I'll get on with life, wait for Pete to what he does, then go and ride hard knowing the bottom end could fall out of the thing in the future.
Do I have the money to throw away on this? No! I'm a penniless preacher, but there are a whole lot more important things in life than a few hundred $s. And don't talk to me about principles, if you knew the flats had problems when you bought, suck it up and move on!! And if you didn't, suck it up and move on anyway because most of us are too old to be letting this tear our guts apart.
Just my 2 bobs worth :thumb:
:1: and an Amen Brother!
-
Yes, the search reveals recalls for failed engine operation, not by the NTSA but that wasn't and isn't the point, the point was the recall.
No, that was the point. That is what I was commenting on, and what you quoted in your comment to me. If you want to change the discussion more toward a manufacturer recall, fine. But that is not the original thrust of the thread, and most of the comments.
If you are now saying that MG should institute a recall, I agree with you.
-
Oi! Larry don't you check your PM'?
Your A kit came in last week. I'm hoping to get your great turd turned over tomorrow!
Pete
-
No, that was the point. That is what I was commenting on, and what you quoted in your comment to me. If you want to change the discussion more toward a manufacturer recall, fine. But that is not the original thrust of the thread, and most of the comments.
If you are now saying that MG should institute a recall, I agree with you.
Context is everything, go back to the post where the point about recalls because of engine operation failure was made. It wasn't specific to the NTSA, only the recalls. After that I made another post explaining where one could read about the recalls I was referring to. Then you picked up on that.
Engine operation failure recalls and NTSA recalls are separate things but can be for the same reason, safety related.
Honda and Polaris voluntarily recalled but as they were safety related as they said so themselves, they could also have fallen under the purview of the NTSA, a related point.
Either way, a recall gets the job done but like anything there can be other consequences such as those costs being passed on to customers through bike and parts sales. However, if MG is allowed to just hang the moon out of the window and dump on those below, it never gets better, it remains the same as evidenced by their behavior.
It s better to be pissed off than pissed on. It depends on which end of the line you want to be in when it comes to things like this.
-
Sure, right.
-
Oi! Larry don't you check your PM'?
Your A kit came in last week. I'm hoping to get your great turd turned over tomorrow!
Pete
Oops.
Thanks Pete. I always said you were a good man. There's not many of us left :laugh:
I'll call.
-
Frogshit Larry. The vast majority of people on earth are good, decent, generous and kind. It's the assholes that give people a bad name.
Pete
-
Frogshit Larry. The vast majority of people on earth are good, decent, generous and kind. It's the assholes that give people a bad name.
Pete
That's the truth.
-
Absolutely.
-
Absolutely.
Maggie?
-
:smiley: :smiley:
-
I don't really think the vast majority are good decent people, maybe around 60%. The other 40 are composed of complete azzholes, something like 15% and the remaining 25% can easily be swayed one way or another.
-
I don't really think the vast majority are good decent people, maybe around 60%. The other 40 are composed of complete azzholes, something like 15% and the remaining 25% can easily be swayed one way or another.
The 15% do stuff they know is wrong but do it anyway and screw others over to do it.
The 60% are the ones getting screwed by the 15%.
The remaining 25% sit idly by watching the movie until they become impacted by the 15% and then they run over to the 60% and claim they were there all along.
-
Do you guys mind holding it down a little bit ?
I'm working on statistics for on time delivery sorted by repeat build or first time build, and you're distracting me.
-
A motorcycle relies on engine power during operation to remain upright and a failure to do so increases greatly the chances of a collision or fall.
HaHa!
Got my laugh of the day.
You post up some classic shite, NP.
Do quotes like this come to you each night in your sleep? Or, just randomly pop into your head?
-
HaHa!
Got my laugh of the day.
You post up some classic shite, NP.
Do quotes like this come to you each night in your sleep? Or, just randomly pop into your head?
Load up your bike, passenger included, enter a sharp lean over turn and hit the kill switch as if you weren't expecting it. Make sure the turn is off camber with an incline.
Better yet, get really crossed up, you know the kind and do the same thing.
Do post a video cause I like a laugh as much as you do. Make sure to be on the nerf road when you do it.
But having read the posts here about people falling over in driveways and such with no other traffic in sight, maybe a non running engine works better for them.
If all that is too much, here is the easy way. Sit on your favorite bike, feet up, stand stads up, engine off. Take a still picture and show everyone how its done.
I can't wait.
-
Do you guys mind holding it down a little bit ?
I'm working on statistics for on time delivery sorted by repeat build or first time build, and you're distracting me.
MG could use someone like you.
-
I'm not defending MG but as far as a safety issue goes all I have to say is if anyone ever crashes their motorcycle because the valve train is gradually wearing should get rid of all of their motorcycles and get one of these instead:
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h45/bigdave52952/Amish/amish.jpg)
-
I'm not defending MG but as far as a safety issue goes all I have to say is if anyone ever crashes their motorcycle because the valve train is gradually wearing should get rid of all of their motorcycles and get one of these instead:
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h45/bigdave52952/Amish/amish.jpg)
Well, right here on WG we have people that forget to put their feet down, get off bikes without putting the stand down, plenty that can't figure out how much oil to put in, lose dipsticks and don't know where the battery is or how to charge it.
Let's start a list.
I think the idea is to try everything and what works, works, who cares what that is?
-
Along the same line, we could say that any company that can't wire a starter the right way or make flat tappets work or sell defective ones knowing they are should not be making motorcycles and instead stick to buggies and other such things.
I mean, since we're going down this road.
-
Not sure pointing out all of the mistakes made by others is such a great idea :tongue: In probably 400,000 miles on the street , and a fair few hours on a race track and in the dirt , I have never had an equipment malfunction cause me to crash , well , unless one considers a couple of personal (read as brain) malfunctions that resulted in landing upside down :laugh:
Dusty
-
Unfortunately , or fortunately I guess, until a tappet failure causes an engine to seize and then subsequently causes a rider to crash, the scenario is a hypothetical and unlikely to carry much weight in a legal argument. But also fortunately, or unfortunately, I guess, I am not a lawyer. Lots of hypothetical scenarios can cause a crash. Not many have caused a recall.
-
I really don't understand why you guys are arguing with Norge Pilot. He's the only one posting on this that has worked as a govt regulator. Everyone is pretending to know something and one guy here has some real experience.
This recall deal might be a long shot but man, you're a bunch of naysayers.
-
Not sure pointing out all of the mistakes made by others is such a great idea :tongue: In probably 400,000 miles on the street , and a fair few hours on a race track and in the dirt , I have never had an equipment malfunction cause me to crash , well , unless one considers a couple of personal (read as brain) malfunctions that resulted in landing upside down :laugh:
Dusty
Not sure talking about people when the subject is an effort by the OP to get Moto Guzzi to deal with what they had to know was defective components when it left the factory has to do with anything either, still it went on.
People have fallen because the engine in their bike failed, to argue that is foolishness because it has happened. The perfect people of course, never have such problems.
The thread was about the OPs effort to get MG to act like more than a DGS coalition of the uninterested. From there some decided to make it personal, be upfront about it. If one serves it up, expect to eat some.
If you need to open up the engine to check to see if the tappets are headed south before it has more than a few thousand miles on it, it is a complete POS engine and should never have seen the light of day.
So much for no stupid questions, the OP came here to tell of his efforts and instead if getting some pointers on how to make a better case or do it better, with the exception of asking the same people that are responsible for it in the first place or being told what he was trying was wrong) what came of it?
Moto Guzzi should be held to account for what they did, they screwed over everyone who bought a flat tappet 8V bike that went out of warranty while MG knew the problem existed and failing to recall those outside of warranty is shameful.
Someone asks for the 500th how much oil to put in and 50 answers get posted. How to diagnose a crappy wired starter, recommendations and offers of help.
One guy says he wants MG to ante up and fix the bikes with flat tappet problems and so many forget it all and offer virtually zero support.
The people who win are those who don't give up. I hope the OP is successful and will provide as much support as possible, because in the end, things like this should not happen, it was not a mistake it was thought out other than when first discovered.
-
NP can you provide one documented case of someone falling over after an engine failure . Hell , I grenaded a Triumph motor at 75 MPH , nothing left but hot smoking metal , still didn't crash . As for folks asking what seem to you to be silly questions , that is a completely different matter that doesn't relate to the issue at hand .
Dusty
-
I think the OP intent is admirable, I just thought it was mentioned that this particular agency only deals with safety recalls. I am wondering how you argue that when there hasn't been a documented accident or complete loss of power due to the crappy tappet design. Perhaps it is more of a consumer protection issue in a monetary sense. I certainly agree with nothing ventured nothing gained and wish the OP luck.
-
I think the OP intent is admirable, I just thought it was mentioned that this particular agency only deals with safety recalls. I am wondering how you argue that when there hasn't been a documented accident or complete loss of power due to the crappy tappet design. Perhaps it is more of a consumer protection issue in a monetary sense. I certainly agree with nothing ventured nothing gained and wish the OP luck.
I think we all wish the OP well .
Dusty
-
NP can you provide one documented case of someone falling over after an engine failure . Hell , I grenaded a Triumph motor at 75 MPH , nothing left but hot smoking metal , still didn't crash . As for folks asking what seem to you to be silly questions , that is a completely different matter that doesn't relate to the issue at hand .
Dusty
I don't care what you did or what happened to you, that isn't the point or question. I know people who have fallen because their engine stalled midway in a turn.
As for documented, why not go and read about all the recalls for engine stalling or engine failure on motorcycles and instead ask those companies why they said loss of engine operation could lead to a crash? I doubt you'll bother though because your intent isn't to get information is it?
In 2008 HD recalled 47,000 bikes because a fuel filter shell could have caused a loss of fuel pressure and the engine, not getting fuel would stall. HD explicitly agreed that a stalling engine could lead to a crash. I guess HD just doesn't know what it is doing.
Who ushered in the recall? The NTSA. This was for losing fuel pressure and yes it was deemed a safety issue.
Engine failure on a.motorcycle is a safety issue. Go argue with the NTSA.
-
No , my intent was to prevent a misguided attempt at embarrassing other members .
Dusty
-
So essentially someone would have to convince the NTSA that a failed tappet could stall the motor? How do you do that without an actual case of that happening?
-
I no longer own an 8v Guzzi. Not because of the potential issue with the flat tappets, but more because I didn't want to throw what I thought would be a bunch of $$ at taming the very rough suspension. I was fearful I'd end up with something different than stock, but not an improvement over stock. so she's gone.
So, I now have no dog in the fight.
But I keep noticing that several posts talk about how small a boutique manufacturer like Guzzi is, and how a total recall would wreck them ..... and I have to ask myself .... how big is Piaggio?
As I recall reading, Piaggio is one of the largest manufacturers of two-wheel transportation in the world. Doing a recall, and reimbursing the dealers in cash for time spent fixing the problem shouldn't bankrupt them. Sure, it'll hurt them a bit, but they won't be the first manufacturer to be hit with recalls that hurt.
OTOH, if Piaggio is attempting to dump the problem on their tiny subsidiary, Guzzi, then that is a different story.
With my limited knowledge of things legal (aside from a divorce several years ago) I'd say it's time for Piaggio Corporate, not little Moto Guzzi, to step up to the plate and do the right thing.
Bob
-
Many motorcycle recalls for safety related concerns cite an component that causes or could cause the engine to stop running.
HD, Honda, Kawasaki and just about every motorcycle manufacture says that loss of engine operation while riding can be a cause of a crash. It isn't a debate, they are on record saying it and have recalled bikes because of it.
You don't have to believe me, but arguing that losing engine operation while riding isn't dangerous or that it could cause a crash goes against common knowledge and the accepted positions of the largest and second largest motorcycle manufacturers in the world.
The NTSA supports those positions. Something does not need to happen for a regulatory agency to demand the potential problem be fixed. A regulatory agency can also send and advice to the appropriate agency if it believes it is not the one. It is their duty to report.
Sure, the tappets might take a while to fail. So what? They start failing during the warranty period, not wearing normally. Owners are not reasonable expected to inspect the tappets other than what is required by scheduled maintenance. If the maintenance schedule does not include inspecting the tappets for the problem as described then no one needs to do it.
What is said on some forum is not considered notification to do anything. If Moto Guzzi put out a service bulletin then the inspection should take place. Anyone see one advising owners to inspect their tappets?
-
Load up your bike, passenger included, enter a sharp lean over turn and hit the kill switch as if you weren't expecting it. Make sure the turn is off camber with an incline.
Better yet, get really crossed up, you know the kind and do the same thing.
Do post a video cause I like a laugh as much as you do. Make sure to be on the nerf road when you do it.
But having read the posts here about people falling over in driveways and such with no other traffic in sight, maybe a non running engine works better for them.
If all that is too much, here is the easy way. Sit on your favorite bike, feet up, stand stads up, engine off. Take a still picture and show everyone how its done.
I can't wait.
NP,
I've lost power on more than one occasion over the past twenty years on a couple different bikes.
Guess what? The bike didn't fall over, and I didn't crash.
Usually, it's been running out of fuel. But on one occasion, I was 2-up on my Quota when the engine locked up because of loss of oil pressure. A quick grab of the clutch lever, and all was good.
A two-wheeled vehicle does not need a running engine to stay upright. The gyro effect of the two rolling wheels does that.
Coast down a hill sometime on your Norge with the engine off, if you dare, and report back.
-
I really don't understand why you guys are arguing with Norge Pilot. He's the only one posting on this that has worked as a govt regulator. Everyone is pretending to know something and one guy here has some real experience.
This recall deal might be a long shot but man, you're a bunch of naysayers.
Oh great. That explains it.
He probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...
-
So essentially someone would have to convince the NTSA that a failed tappet could stall the motor? How do you do that without an actual case of that happening?
I think Norge Pilot is volunteering.
-
No , my intent was to prevent a misguided attempt at embarrassing other members .
Dusty
then I totally don't see your point.
-
Oh great. That explains it.
He probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...
my goodness, aren't we all the cat's growl.
-
Ok, I'm askin NP, because you said you know multipal people who have crashed because of engine failure, what were the circumstances? I don't personally know anyone who suffered such, but you have knowledge of multipal events. Bad luck maybe?
-
I didn't want to throw what I thought would be a bunch of $$ at taming the very rough suspension.
Grisos are typically very harsh out of the crate due to the comp damping cranked way down. I can make my Griso ride like a gold wing or stout like a track bike with a few clicks. I lowered the forks in the trees and set up the suspenders correctly...it works. It'll never handle like a sport bike, but you can get pretty close with the stock bits.
Sorry, didn't mean to derail the love fest...
-
Ok, I'm askin NP, because you said you know multipal people who have crashed because of engine failure, what were the circumstances? I don't personally know anyone who suffered such, but you have knowledge of multipal events. Bad luck maybe?
Loss of engine operation. Also, that was the only instance I know of where a bike engine stalled with the bike in motion other than letting the clutch out too quickly and you know, the stall.
Does everyone who falls report it to some database we can look up? Nope. Lots of people fall, pick the bike up and never give it a second though if they are ok, they figure something happened. There could be many people who have fallen or crashed because of engine failure or loss of engine operation, there is no place to go to find all of them and if they said nothing, you don't know about it. The Internet is not the sum of all knowledge or experience.
It is not bad luck when an engine fails to operate when the bike is being ridden, something is wrong. Either the rider messed up or the engine messed up or some component that affects the engine messed up.
The situation was this:
Going through some mountain passes or what pass as mountains in California (hills everywhere else). Up hill, road off camber (seems to be a California design affliction) and sharp turns. Other rider was fully loaded up but no over weight. Had his wife on back. The turns would go from 30-40 mph to some that meant going maybe 10 mph.
He rode into the turn at about 20 I guess and it was one of those that had you lean way over and then power out up the incline. Midway to power out and the engine coughed real loud and died. There was no recovery. There was not enough momentum I am guessing, to let the bike straighten out and get it upright. I am certain that oncoming traffic would have made that unwise in any case.
Down they went. She did the knees, hands and chin thing, I didn't see exactly what he did other than they both made it out of that mess ok. That was about 20 or so years ago.
Look, I get it, the thing is, this isn't about me as some are trying to make it out to be. Why I don't know but not wanting to face the fact that an engine failure in a motorcycle can cause a crash leaves me to believe some people would rather try to argue things already proven.
You know, things happen to people all the time and just because they didn't happen to us doesn't mean they don't happen. This "it never happened to me" is BS, so what if it never happened to me? I never had a car accelerate by itself either but would I be the dumbass if I said because of that all the Toyota Priius owners who experienced it were crazy.
Some riders are better riders than others too. Some might be able to compensate for an engine failure, goodie for them. That isn't everyone though so it means squat.
Engine failure isn't a matter of luck, something goes wrong. You don't buy a bike and depend on luck for the thing to run right or be built right.
The whole point is and I've presented more than enough evidence to prove it true, is that an engine failure while the bike is being operated can precipitate a crash. That means it is a safety issue and the NTSA agrees and has said as much. If they will see it that way for this issue remains to be seen but even if not, there are other ways and avenues to continue pushing until MG does the right thing.
I hope the OP succeeds and the NTSA declares it a safety issue or finds some other cause to make them recall all the affected bikes and compensate those that paid for the fix themselves. If not, perhaps some consumer protection agency will take it on, all the OP needs is that California flat tappet 8V rider. Maybe it is time someone ran it up far enough to make them cough up canolies and they will simply do what is proper, in the end it doesn't cost them a penny, it creates good will and people buy bikes if they think that they will be reliable and that the company stands behind their products.
MG is wrong on this. It isn't even a question.
-
It will cost the dealer though.
Pete
-
It will cost the dealer though.
Pete
Pete, if you were my dealer I would make sure that you were not out of pocket to do the repair, not one penny.
That is me though.
I have always done this on major warranty work if I knew the dealer was taking it in the shorts. When my Honda 750F had the bad vale guides, I contributed to make it fair because I see the dealer as more than just someone to use but someone to collaborate with to keep the bikes I have in top performance. I don't hold them responsible for bad design or faulty assembly at the factory.
Dealers do not lose money on my warranty repairs. I try to have them do other services in coordination with the warranty work. Tomorrow my Norge goes in because of the oil weeping out if the cable stay holes on the swing arm. While they are doing that I'll have them check the swing arm bearings for grease, flush the rear brake fluid and check all the fasteners. Simple stuff and maybe not even needed. It evens things out.
But they take care of me so I take care of them.
-
Lucian, don't waste your time. He knows everything.
There have been recalls over equipment and engine parts before, but not by the U.S. government. They were voluntary recalls issued by the manufacturers. Even when there were many instances of engines suddenly shutting down (BMW K1600GTs is one of them) the government didn't entertain any requests. Several years ago I was told by NHSTA in so many words that there has to be shown there were injuries, deaths, or an extreme likelihood of injury or death from a part failure for them to get involved. Obviously, not every manufacturer defect falls under those "rules".
-
Personally I wish NP and the OP all the luck in the world with this. But I don't think I'll hold my breath waiting for a check from Piaggio for the $1400 bucks the C kit costs me. At least they did design a fix for the problem. Imagine where all the 8v owners would be now if they hadn't. And jump through a couple of reasonable hoops and get a $1400.00 dollar kit free, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. I'll save my energy for life's real problems. Why kick a niche manufacturer of cool bikes in the nuts when their down? I kinda get the step up if you've f'd up argument, but I think they have done that to the satisfaction of many and probably many more to come. Did it damage the brand? I don't believe it, I love my custom and have not had a single problem with it and would buy it again tomorrow even knowing what I know. To try and pin a safety related claim against anyone without the issue at hand ever even remotely causing an unsafe condition seems like two wrongs trying to make something wright. Not my fight but good luck.
-
A two-wheeled vehicle does not need a running engine to stay upright. The gyro effect of the two rolling wheels does that.
It's not the gyro effect that keeps a bike (motorcycle and bicycle) balanced and upright. The balancing of the center of mass does that. Have you seen a bicyclist stay upright at a stoplight with no forward motion. That is center of mass balance. What the gyro effect helps to do is provide resistance to motion. That's why it's easier to balance when you're moving. The faster the wheels spin the greater resistance there is to get out of balance from a balanced position. A spinning mass will want to keep going in the direction it's already going.
From Wikipedia " Hence gyroscopic forces do not provide any resistance to tipping."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics
Rocker is correct about the engine off rolling downhill. The bike will want to continue to stay upright more than it wants to tip because it was already moving in that direction. That's why a truck wheel (and skinny bicycle wheel) will roll downhill and not tip over.
-
Not everyone rides a constant downhill. Basically, one scenario was taken and turned into something it wasn't and then attempted to be turned into the entire premise of the issue.
Let's be clear, a motorcycle going downhill with the engine off still has acceleration and forward motion right? What happens is that gravity takes the place of the energy usually imparted by the engine to produce forward momotion. If the argument is replacing one means of forward motion with another, OK, replace the gasoline engine with an electric one, so what?
Using a motorcycle going downhill as an example is ludicrous, engine on or not, the bike is still moving forward right? Now remove the downhill since they all come to and end at some point. Just how long before the bike falls over without putting your feet down?
I'd still like to see the video of a feet up, stands up going uphill with sudden loss of engine in a hard leaned over turn and the result of rider, passenger and luggage. Out of 100 riders, how many would fall?
I have yet to see motorcycle riders doing the balancing act at stop lights but maybe it happens in some places. As an example it doesn't apply except in theory because probably not more than one in a thousand riders, if that could balance their bike with a passenger on it without feet or foot down or while in motion.
However, a motorcycle without a running motor is rather useless as it sits. Here, the cause is kniwn, the responsible identified, it just comes down to who writes the checks: the people it was done to or the people doing it.
-
Yeah well , Swedish medical researchers like to quote Bob Dylan in research papers .
Dusty
And the only cure they came up with was for wrinkles.
-
We seem to have a seriousness pissing match at play here
I'm not real smart, but if we were all sitting around a fire, suronded by tents and cool motorcycles, we would have put this to bed by now. And at this point a bottle of George Dickel would start to make its wAy around the circle, and all would be ok.
-
I like Dewar’s Highlander Honey Flavored Whisky. :popcorn:
-
And the only cure they came up with was for wrinkles.
Nope , no cure , only internet , er , opinions .
Dusty
-
We seem to have a seriousness pissing match at play here
I'm not real smart, but if we were all sitting around a fire, suronded by tents and cool motorcycles, we would have put this to bed by now. And at this point a bottle of George Dickel would start to make its wAy around the circle, and all would be ok.
Besides , we all know the correct answer is Jane Leaves :rolleyes: :laugh:
Dusty
-
Doesn't everybody balance at stop signs with feet up, at least for the short stops?
-
Track Stand.
Yes, do it all the time. :afro: