Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: harrytief on February 28, 2016, 10:37:14 AM
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I rebuilt the transmission and replaced the clutch (new clutch plates, 4mm hub) on my cx100 over the winter. On my attempt at a first ride, the clutch plates drag and will not fully disengage regardless of any adjustment at either end of the clutch cable or grub screw at back of the transmission. The push rod is new as is the throw out bearing and the outer body sits in place recessed about 1/4 into its tunnel at the back of the transmission. Am I missing anything I should still try before ripping (I hate the thought) the transmission out again. Any thoughts regarding what to look for when I pull the transmission? I cannot recall if I was careful enough to note that the hub on the clutch plates faced to the rear of the bike. As well. I had a nice intermediate plate that was thicker than other intermediate plates I had so I went with the thicker plate. Will either of the two issues above cause drag that can't be dialed out?
Thanks
Harry
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What were the splines in the flywheel like?
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Hi Pete
Welcome back!
Splines looked good. Added a judicious dap of antiseize toothbrushed into the teeth.
Harry
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Did you use a compression tool to align the plates and compress the springs allowing the intermediate plate to be installed fully in the splines?
Pete
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I have a CX and I may be daft but shouldn't the outer body (the one that contacts the grub be a bit proud from the case, certainly not recessed.
Sounds sorta like your pushrod is to short? or more likely the outer body is sticking/hung up for some reason!
A WAG on my part.
good luck
mike
Yeah, for whatever reason the outer body is going in too far. It should be flush, give or take a few thou.
Kind of hard to say why without being there.. but is it stuck in, or free to move?
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Spring sockets not lined up
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Without knowing that model bike, just a thought:
You replaced the throw out bearing and the push rod. Now the plunger is sitting to far in. Too short of push rod/wrong part? Too thin a bearing/wrong part? Did you compare the rod length with the original?
On my Eldo there is a cup that the push rod rides in in the center of the pressure plate (the plate the springs push on). It is removable and sometimes falls out of place. If your bike has this cup, was it installed?
If the bearing and rod can be accessed like my Eldo, not too hard a thing to check without pulling the trans. The cup needs the trans pulled to find out.
Hope this helps and it's something simple.
Tom
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Harry,
If you used SD-TEC clutch plates, they seem to have a bit thicker friction material on them, enough that the outer body is recessed approx. 3-4 mm. I do one of two things to remedy this: buy the longer clutch pushrod meant for the RAM clutch setup or install a ball (bearing) of the appropriate diameter in between the inner body and pushrod.
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Spring sockets not lined up
what he said
how did you keep the springs in place when you compressed the pressure plate? was the PP arrow/mark lined up to the arrow/other mark?
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Pete
Yes, I did use a compression tool to align the intermediate plate.
I agree with all who point out that the outer body seems to be recessed too far. I recall that before the rebuild, the outer body face was almost flush with the back plane of the transmission case.
Charlie
I did use the SD-TEC plates. The outer body seems recessed by 3-4mm so that lovely, clever fix may work...if the problem is not my forgetfulness with the base plate for the pushrod itself. I thought that all big block push rods where the same length. I'll try the ball bearing first and see.
Anyone have a slick trick for pulling the pushrod out without pulling the transmission?
mine is far enough up the pushrod tunnel to be out of needle nose plier range.
Harry
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Hi Brad, Mike
I'm hopeful that the springs stayed in place. I "glued" them in place with a little grease and I did align the marks to be certain that the two sets of spring sockets matched opposite each other...I hope.
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Hi Brad, Mike
I'm hopeful that the springs stayed in place. I "glued" them in place with a little grease and I did align the marks to be certain that the two sets of spring sockets matched opposite each other...I hope.
One little trick I've learned is to use some channel locks and squeeze the spring together on the end just a tad. It'll then stick on the boss, and no grease is necessary.
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Re-read Charlies bearing solution. If I read it right, you don't have to pull the push rod out, just the outer body and the inner body then install a ball bearing?
Good luck!
Tom
PS: the cup that is mounted to the pressure plate is most likely in. If it was not then the push rod would go all the way to the crankshaft.
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Re-read Charlies bearing solution. If I read it right, you don't have to pull the push rod out, just the outer body and the inner body then install a ball bearing?
Correct. The pushrod does not need to come out, just the clutch arm, outer body, throw-out bearing and inner body. Squish some grease down into the inner body opening, drop in the ball, push it home with an M6 bolt and reinstall everything.
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I am going to say that my experience with the inner body was that I had to remove the pushrod to get it off the rod as it was a snug fit.
But I have only done it on my machine and maybe its odd. If you reach in there with a magnet to the inner,(throwout bearing and thrust washers removed),the rod is likely to come out as it slips into the inner bearing.
This is just my experience.
Whether the pushrod will come out easily or not depends largely on what pushrod seals were installed. The original plastic "sleeve" or the later "cones" will allow it to come out with just a magnet, with the six o-ring stack it's gripped a bit tighter and won't.
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Charlie
What about slicing a 4mm piece off an old pushrod and using that as a spacer insider the inner body? I may not readily find a ball bearing.
Harry
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Charlie
What about slicing a 4mm piece off an old pushrod and using that as a spacer insider the inner body? I may not readily find a ball bearing.
Harry
That would work too. Instead of buying 100 balls from McMaster-Carr, I found a cheap bearing at my local hardware store (was for a mower wheel or something like that) with the desired sized balls in it. Wrapped it in a rag, crushed/cracked the outer race in a vise. Enough to do several bikes. :wink:
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Any decent hardware store will have balls of various sizes in their "specialty" area.
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Or you could just buy a length of 6MM drillrod and manufacture a longer push rod. DonG
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Well that didn't work.
I made a small 3.5mm and fitted into the inner body. I reinstalled the inner and outer bodies now getting excited 'caus the outer body sat flush with the back of the transmission. I adjusted the lever at the rear of the transmission , fitted and adjusted the clutch cable and expected success. Nope. The thicker clutch plates are probably the reason I needed the 3.5mm spacer in the inner body but there is another problem that is not allowing the clutch plates to separate. Ideas?
nothing to do but pull the transmission...agai n.? What will I find>
Harry
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So, you adjusted the adjuster on the lever on the back of the trans, installed the cable and adjusted both of the cable adjusters and now you can't pull the clutch lever on the handlebar? Or is the clutch still dragging?
If you can't pull the clutch lever on the bars, you may have the lever on the trans adjusted too short and is hitting the case?
Just trying to think of simple things that could be wrong. Hate to pull a trans for something simple. Been there, done it.
Please tell more.
Tom
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I had a nice intermediate plate that was thicker than other intermediate plates I had so I went with the thicker plate.
what's with that? how much thicker? maybe it was warped? or it did so when you compressed the pressure plate?
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I am going to think about this tonight.
Harry
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I cannot recall if I was careful enough to note that the hub on the clutch plates faced to the rear of the bike.
Well, at any rate, it won't take long to get back in there and find out.
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Well I am at a loss. I checked that the outer body moves when the clutch lever at the handlebar is depressed. It does move freely in and out about 1mm. The clutch lever at the back of the transmission does not hit the rear of the transmission and has a sufficient range of motion. The clutch will not disengage even when I take out all free play adjustment in the cable. I am checking clutch disengagement without running the engine. I can move the bike around the garage in neutral but when I slip it into gear and depress the clutch, it stays in gear and will not move.
I tried to recall all that I did in assembly of the clutch and can't recall anything that makes me sweat. Even if the clutch plates where reversed, I think that would cause slippage rather than clutch lock up. Please correct me here if necessary. The two types of intermediate plates I have on hand differ only in thickness. One measures out at 3.0mm thick while the other is 1.5mm thick. I am not sure what OEM usage they have. I think I may have used the thicker plate in this clutch. That may account in part for the "short" pushrod problem but I don't see how it would cause this clutch lock up issue.
Clutch springs are all new.
What to do?
Harry
PS
I know that it prolly needs to come out but...damn!
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Have you adjusted the screw that presses the throwout bearing?
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Hi OMG
I need one of your hats!
I adjusted the grub screw on the lever at the back of the transmission until Icould feel it taking out all free play at that lever then backed out 1/2 turn. I then adjusted free play in the cable using the cable adjusters at either end.
Still no joy.
Harry
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His pricing is pretty good on the hats. Where he gets you is the shipping and fondling charge. :evil:
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Hi Kirby
Yes you may be right. I know that the clutch lever provides mechanical advantage at its forked end trading much more arc for much less force, But i also thought there would be more travel at the grub screw. Anyone have any specs/thoughts on outer body displacement? It may be in the order of 1 mm as it doesn't need much to just separate the clutch plates. It just started to snow here this morning. Is the universe encouraging me to forget riding form a while and think "tool time" again
Harry
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Chuck.
I wonder if it is cheaper and have fewer finger prints if I ask Kirby to just email me the CNC programme for the hat.
.Harry
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His pricing is pretty good on the hats. Where he gets you is the shipping and fondling charge. :evil:
Don't tell everyone, geez. :rolleyes:
Harry, from everything you describe, I would go in again just to confirm the intermediate plate isn't bend, etc.
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Don't tell everyone, geez. :rolleyes:
Harry, from everything you describe, I would go in again just to confirm the intermediate plate isn't bend, etc.
Yep, already told him.. :wink:
Well, at any rate, it won't take long to get back in there and find out.
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Harry, clutching at straws here for you, but I once had similar problems with a similar layout and it was caused by excessive crankshaft end float using up some of the lever travel. Steve.
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After re-reading all the post and what has been done, hate to say it, it might be time to pull the trans and look at the friction plates to make sure they are in the right direction. As mentioned, also check the metal plates. Also double check that a spring did not fall over, that might also cause the pressure plate to not move in correctly.
I'm not big on the putting the front wheel against the wall and trying to break the plates loose. If there is something installed wrong inside, it could cause damage.
Hopefully someone has another option to try before pulling the trans again.
On a loop frame it's not to bad to do, I don't look forward to that job on my Tonti EV Touring.
Again, good luck!!
Tom
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Kirby,
Was reading a few post about the wall type idea with the engine running and trying to free this or that up, or just burn down a tire :wink: Just the starter for a short burst might not be a bad idea? Still a bit worried it might hurt something in THIS perticuler case.
I always hated the which side up on the friction plates. I made a note in the loop manual about which way they go in.
Tom
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I seem to remember somewhere at least for loops, you wanted the arm on the trans to be at least 90deg or more with the adjust against the plunger. More would even be fine. This is for loops:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_clutch_adjustment.html
If applicable, might be of help before pulling the trans for a final external check???
Tom
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Place the front tire against a tree and slip the clutch for 30-40 seconds then ride it a bit to cool down the clutch. If you still have problems, try it again. No more than 2 times if it does not cure the problem move on. jb
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Place the front tire against a tree and slip the clutch for 30-40 seconds then ride it a bit to cool down the clutch. If you still have problems, try it again. No more than 2 times if it does not cure the problem move on. jb
Umm.. I would rather take it apart than try that..
I forgot, did you use a compression tool when you tightened up the pressure plate? did you hear a funny noise like a boing when doing it? I'm still going with a warped intermediate plate. or the spring alignment off..
nevermind, I see you did everything right.. I still wouldn't run it against a tree..
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All right...I'm holding my nose and going in...SPLASH!
Harry
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(https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Pink/i-GQGqFxv/0/X2/G0050531%20%281%29-X2.jpg)
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Good luck with your dive! Take your time and make sure all is right! If in doubt please ask!!
If you don't have a manual for your bike, try my link above and go to the home page. He has alot of Guzzi info and many manuals.
Sorry it was not a simple fix :undecided:
Tom
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I pulled the transmission today and carefully dismantled the clutch looking for any clue why it would not disengaged. Found none. Plates facing to the rear. All springs present and in their place. Push rod foot plate not forgotten. Push rod, inner and outer bodies free to move. What to do? I put the clutch and transmission back together but decided to test the thing before putting the bike back together. I rigged up a spare cable, lever and clip on and attached all to the clutch lever at the back of the transmission. I made a tool from an old u-joint to turn the output shaft and a vice grip to shift gears. In neutral, the output shaft turned freely and not at all in first...until I squeezed the makeshift clutch lever. Success! It works just fine with good free play. At least I have come out of this with a test rig for my next clutch job...in my next life. All I can think of is that one or more springs may not have seated properly even tho' the flywheel and pressure plate were correctly aligned.
Next
Harry
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I put the clutch and transmission back together but decided to test the thing before putting the bike back together. I rigged up a spare cable, lever and clip on and attached all to the clutch lever at the back of the transmission. I made a tool from an old u-joint to turn the output shaft and a vice grip to shift gears. In neutral, the output shaft turned freely and not at all in first...until I squeezed the makeshift clutch lever. Success! It works just fine with good free play.
:thumb:
I do that every time I'm reassembling. Beats assembling the complete bike then finding out the clutch doesn't disengage. I turn the output shaft with an old driveshaft coupler grabbed with Vise-Grips.
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Glad to hear you have it sorted out!!!
Tom
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Thank you for your support gentlemen.
Yes K1923, but learning at the expense of one's dignity....
I certainly spent a moment or two kicking my a$$ for being careless and inattentive fixing a motorcycle to which I entrust said a$$.
That too is a lesson.
Thanks again
Harry
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YIPPEE! any bruised knuckles?
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Way to go, Harry!
Shaun
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Moto Guzzi, making mechanics out of riders since 1921.
Well done Harry. :thumb: I thought I heard your sigh of relief from down here.
I know there have been many times I would have been in deep do do without the combined expertise found here.
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I forgot to ask, and have the "I got's to know" feeling :wink:
After you went through the clutch again and then put it all back together with the trans installed and tested with your test setup.
Did you still need the push rod spacer????
Again, glad you have it sorted out!! Been there, done that! Pulled a loop trans out and installed a replacement only to find (after complete reassembly and a ride down the block) the shift pattern was reversed. Pulled again and a correct replacement was done in the same weekend. My back and legs were killing me after that.
Tom