I hate the dreaded clutch drag

[harrytief]

I rebuilt the transmission and replaced the clutch (new clutch plates, 4mm hub) on my cx100 over the winter. On my attempt at a first ride, the clutch plates drag and will not fully disengage regardless of any adjustment at either end of the clutch cable or grub screw at back of the transmission. The push rod is new as is the throw out bearing and the outer body sits in place recessed about 1/4 into its tunnel at the back of the transmission. Am I missing anything I should still try before ripping (I hate the thought) the transmission out again. Any thoughts regarding what to look for when I pull the transmission? I cannot recall if I was careful enough to note that the hub on the clutch plates faced to the rear of the bike. As well. I had a nice intermediate plate that was thicker than other intermediate plates I had so I went with the thicker plate. Will either of the two issues above cause drag that can't be dialed out?
Thanks
Harry

[pete roper]

What were the splines in the flywheel like?

[harrytief]

Hi Pete
Welcome back!
Splines looked good. Added a judicious dap of antiseize toothbrushed into the teeth.
Harry

[pete roper]

Did you use a compression tool to align the plates and compress the springs allowing the intermediate plate to be installed fully in the splines?

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

I have a CX and I may be daft but shouldn't the outer body (the one that contacts the grub be a bit proud from the case, certainly not recessed.
Sounds sorta like your pushrod is to short? or more likely the outer body is sticking/hung up for some reason!
A WAG on my part.
good luck

mike

Yeah, for whatever reason the outer body is going in too far. It should be flush, give or take a few thou.
Kind of hard to say why without being there.. but is it stuck in, or free to move?

[Mike Harper]

Spring sockets not lined up

[Tom H]

Without knowing that model bike, just a thought:

You replaced the throw out bearing and the push rod. Now the plunger is sitting to far in. Too short of push rod/wrong part? Too thin a bearing/wrong part? Did you compare the rod length with the original?

On my Eldo there is a cup that the push rod rides in in the center of the pressure plate (the plate the springs push on). It is removable and sometimes falls out of place. If your bike has this cup, was it installed?

If the bearing and rod can be accessed like my Eldo, not too hard a thing to check without pulling the trans. The cup needs the trans pulled to find out.

Hope this helps and it's something simple.

Tom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Harry,

If you used SD-TEC clutch plates, they seem to have a bit thicker friction material on them, enough that the outer body is recessed approx. 3-4 mm. I do one of two things to remedy this: buy the longer clutch pushrod meant for the RAM clutch setup or install a ball (bearing) of the appropriate diameter in between the inner body and pushrod.

[fotoguzzi]

Spring sockets not lined up

what he said
how did you keep the springs in place when you compressed the pressure plate? was the PP arrow/mark lined up to the arrow/other mark?

[harrytief]

Pete
Yes, I did use a compression tool to align the intermediate plate.
I agree with all who point out that the outer body seems to be recessed too far. I recall that before the rebuild, the outer body face was almost flush with the back plane of the transmission case.
Charlie
I did use the SD-TEC plates. The outer body seems recessed by 3-4mm so that lovely, clever fix may work...if the problem is not my forgetfulness with the base plate for the pushrod itself. I thought that all big block push rods where the same length. I'll try the ball bearing first and see.

Anyone have a slick trick for pulling the pushrod out without pulling the transmission?
mine is far enough up the pushrod tunnel to be out of needle nose plier range.
Harry

[harrytief]

Hi Brad, Mike
I'm hopeful that the springs stayed in place. I "glued" them in place with a little grease and I did align the marks to be certain that the two sets of spring sockets matched opposite each other...I hope.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hi Brad, Mike
I'm hopeful that the springs stayed in place. I "glued" them in place with a little grease and I did align the marks to be certain that the two sets of spring sockets matched opposite each other...I hope.

One little trick I've learned is to use some channel locks and squeeze the spring together on the end just a tad. It'll then stick on the boss, and no grease is necessary.

[Tom H]

Re-read Charlies bearing solution. If I read it right, you don't have to pull the push rod out, just the outer body and the inner body then install a ball bearing?

Good luck!
Tom

PS: the cup that is mounted to the pressure plate is most likely in. If it was not then the push rod would go all the way to the crankshaft.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Re-read Charlies bearing solution. If I read it right, you don't have to pull the push rod out, just the outer body and the inner body then install a ball bearing?

Correct. The pushrod does not need to come out, just the clutch arm, outer body, throw-out bearing and inner body. Squish some grease down into the inner body opening, drop in the ball, push it home with an M6 bolt and reinstall everything.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I am going to say that my experience with the inner body was that I had to remove the pushrod to get it off the rod as it was a snug fit.

But I have only done it on my machine and maybe its odd. If you reach in there with a magnet to the inner,(throwout bearing and thrust washers removed),the rod is likely to come out as it slips into the inner bearing.
This is just my experience.

Whether the pushrod will come out easily or not depends largely on what pushrod seals were installed. The original plastic "sleeve" or the later "cones" will allow it to come out with just a magnet, with the six o-ring stack it's gripped a bit tighter and won't.

[harrytief]

Charlie
What about slicing a 4mm piece off an old pushrod and using that as a spacer insider the inner body? I may not readily find a ball bearing.
Harry

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Charlie
What about slicing a 4mm piece off an old pushrod and using that as a spacer insider the inner body? I may not readily find a ball bearing.
Harry

That would work too. Instead of buying 100 balls from McMaster-Carr, I found a cheap bearing at my local hardware store (was for a mower wheel or something like that) with the desired sized balls in it. Wrapped it in a rag, crushed/cracked the outer race in a vise. Enough to do several bikes. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Any decent hardware store will have balls of various sizes in their "specialty" area.

[Don G]

Or you could just buy a length of 6MM drillrod and manufacture a longer push rod. DonG

[harrytief]

Well that didn't work.
I made a small 3.5mm and fitted into the inner body. I reinstalled the inner and outer bodies now getting excited 'caus the outer body sat flush with the back of the transmission. I adjusted the lever at the rear of the transmission , fitted and adjusted the clutch cable and expected success. Nope. The thicker clutch plates are probably the reason I needed the 3.5mm spacer in the inner body but there is another problem that is not allowing the clutch plates to separate. Ideas?
nothing to do but pull the transmission...agai n.? What will I find>
Harry

[Tom H]

So, you adjusted the adjuster on the lever on the back of the trans, installed the cable and adjusted both of the cable adjusters and now you can't pull the clutch lever on the handlebar? Or is the clutch still dragging?

If you can't pull the clutch lever on the bars, you may have the lever on the trans adjusted too short and is hitting the case?

Just trying to think of simple things that could be wrong. Hate to pull a trans for something simple. Been there, done it.

Please tell more.
Tom

[fotoguzzi]

  I had a nice intermediate plate that was thicker than other intermediate plates I had so I went with the thicker plate. 

what's with that? how much thicker? maybe it was warped? or it did so when you compressed the pressure plate?

[harrytief]

I am going to think about this tonight.
Harry

[Chuck in Indiana]

I cannot recall if I was careful enough to note that the hub on the clutch plates faced to the rear of the bike.

Well, at any rate, it won't take long to get back in there and find out.

[harrytief]

Well I am at a loss. I checked that the outer body moves when the clutch lever at the handlebar is depressed. It does move freely in and out about 1mm. The clutch lever at the back of the transmission does not hit the rear of the transmission and has a sufficient range of motion. The clutch will not disengage even when I take out all free play adjustment in the cable. I am checking clutch disengagement without running the engine. I can move the bike around the garage in neutral but when I slip it into gear and depress the clutch, it stays in gear and will not move.
I tried to recall all that I did in assembly of the clutch and can't recall anything that makes me sweat. Even if the clutch plates where reversed, I think that would cause slippage rather than clutch lock up. Please correct me here if necessary. The two types of intermediate plates I have on hand differ only in thickness. One measures out at 3.0mm thick while the other is 1.5mm thick. I am not sure what OEM usage they have. I think I may have used the thicker plate in this clutch. That may account in part for the "short" pushrod problem but I don't see how it would cause this clutch lock up issue.
Clutch springs are all new.
What to do?
Harry
PS
I know that it prolly needs to come out but...damn!

[Wayne Orwig]

Have you adjusted the screw that presses the throwout bearing?

[harrytief]

Hi OMG
I need one of your hats!
I adjusted the grub screw on the lever at the back of the transmission until Icould feel it taking out all free play at that lever then backed out 1/2 turn. I then adjusted free play in the cable using the cable adjusters at either end.
Still no joy.
Harry

[Chuck in Indiana]

His pricing is pretty good on the hats. Where he gets you is the shipping and fondling charge. 

[harrytief]

Hi Kirby
Yes you may be right. I know that the clutch lever provides mechanical advantage at its forked end trading much more arc for much less force, But i also thought there would be more travel at the grub screw. Anyone have any specs/thoughts on outer body displacement? It may be in the order of 1 mm as it doesn't need much to just separate the clutch plates. It just started to snow here this morning. Is the universe encouraging me to forget riding form a while and think "tool time" again
Harry

[harrytief]

Chuck.
I wonder if it is cheaper and have fewer finger prints if I ask Kirby to just email me the CNC programme for the hat.
.Harry