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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Huzo on March 24, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
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Is it possible to remove the ABS on my '07 Norge ? I prefer not to have it intervene when I've decided where and how hard I want to brake. Had an issue once in the heavy rain where I knew I could have stopped in time to avoid a car, but the system thought I was going to crash. ( I wasn't ). The ABS reduced the braking for me so I wouldn't crash, and nearly caused me to crash !
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I would say it is possible but surely ABS should be an advantage? but is there not some way of just switching it off - a fuse or something?
I would imagine more people would want to retrofit than remove if it was possible due to do so...
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Is it possible to remove the ABS on my '07 Norge ? I prefer not to have it intervene when I've decided where and how hard I want to brake. Had an issue once in the heavy rain where I knew I could have stopped in time to avoid a car, but the system thought I was going to crash. ( I wasn't ). The ABS reduced the braking for me so I wouldn't crash, and nearly caused me to crash !
All you need is any brake components (including lines) that are different from a non-ABS bike (perhaps a Breva 1100 if all Norges had ABS).
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I've never ridden an ABS bike, but on an automotive system, any fault, like a sensor, will shut down ABS, and brake fluid will flow as normal- non ABS. Pull the plug on the module and see what it does.
A common complaint from people with ABS is "the car wouldn't stop". One girl, swore her brakes failed, she went right through a stop sign in the snow. I interrogated her until I got her to admit when the ABS cycled, she lifted her foot, "cause the brakes felt funny".
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I often shut the ABS on my '08 Norge off. There are many situations where ABS is not an advantage. The '08 has a button to disable the ABS on the left side of the fairing. It has occasionally been handy in normal riding. I suspect there is a fuse you could pull somewhere.
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My `89 Dodge PU had ABS and it was always slower responding than me. If you really know how to ride/drive you don't need ABS. ABS is for slackers. :popcorn:
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My `89 Dodge PU had ABS and it was always slower responding than me. If you really know how to ride/drive you don't need ABS. ABS is for slackers. :popcorn:
To a fairly large degree I agree with this. Given skill and practice I may not be able to stop as straight without ABS, but I can almost always stop sooner.
For people who do not want to practice panic stops and learn how to do them properly ABS is a godsend. Even for those though panic stops should be practiced so one knows what to expect.
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The last two posts put it best. I had to brake in the pouring rain and the abs said no. This meant I had to accelerate through the intersection to avoid pulling up half way through. If you shut the abs off, the yellow light on the panel fleshes incessantly, and it re sets next time you start. But thanks to the info I've got on the forum I think I'll leave well alone. Thank you all
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Yeah Avatar, mine's an '07 and the same setup
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I love my Guzzi linked set-up and generally wouldn't like this sort of thing. Both wheels braking at safe rates (no rear lock-up). It's the cats meow. I'm not a fan of abs either on my truck.
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Is it possible to remove the ABS on my '07 Norge ? I prefer not to have it intervene when I've decided where and how hard I want to brake. Had an issue once in the heavy rain where I knew I could have stopped in time to avoid a car, but the system thought I was going to crash. ( I wasn't ). The ABS reduced the braking for me so I wouldn't crash, and nearly caused me to crash !
On most cars all you do is yank the fuse for the ABS pump the systems are designed in case of an ABS failure the brakes still work like normal brakes. Yes you'll probably get an idiot light on the dash for your trouble.
As others have said a lot of work to actually remove all the associated bits and pieces and do it neatly. When you go to sell the bike put the fuse back in and its won't have that molested by a shade tree mechanic thing about it.
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Ok some one needs to pull out some comparative test data on modern bikes and cars. Best stopping distances with professional operators with and without ABS.
I have a funny feeling it's gonna be very different from the anecdotal stories of antique Dodge PU's (was that even a 4-channel system back then) or blue averages.
I'm one who once thought I was better than the systems. And I've spent about a a decade with at least one ABS equipped bike in the fleet.
But I've come around in my thinking since ABS systems have gotten better and better. And having seen some people post data here over the years.
In interest of full disclosure I'll add that I've never really actuated the ABS on my bikes over the years despite some hard stops. I'll also add that they've never caused me to extend any distances either.
Maybe there are some individual machines with problems or riders that need to adjust their riding for conditions more.
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I often shut the ABS on my '08 Norge off. There are many situations where ABS is not an advantage. The '08 has a button to disable the ABS on the left side of the fairing. It has occasionally been handy in normal riding. I suspect there is a fuse you could pull somewhere.
Yes, there are those times.
Downhill in gravel driveways. ABS let's the bike continue forward because the tires can slip and ABS kicks in. Turn ABS off and you can use the rear brake and if it locks the rear tire can plow just enough and slow a lot faster than with ABS.
Other than that I keep it on.
If you have a fuse for the ABS maybe wiring a toggle for it?
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I did activate the ABS on my Honda. Three times. Once because I just needed to stop before I hit the truck in front of me. Twice because of sand on the road at the intersection. If the ABS had not kicked in I probably would have slid through. And, yes, I have made fast stops and a few 'panic' stops before, without ABS. I'd rather have the ABS unless I am on a dirt road.
I suspect there are few situations on the street where many of you could 'beat' an ABS. One is a bumpy area (like washboard), but, that is tough to judge because many people cannot stop 'fast' on a bumpy area either.
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The problem is........a not really competent MC rider thinks since their new bike has ABS they don't have to learn how to stop better in different conditions and totally rely on the ABS. ABS gives them a false sense of security. :evil:
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ABS gives them a false sense of security.
Like having a parachute when skydiving. Back in the old days, we didn't need no stinkin' parachutes..
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Abs removal? Easy... drink beer eat lots of pasta :boozing: :thewife:
Oh, got it... ABS.. not Abdominals. Happy Friday everyone, just joking around.
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When trying to stop on slippery pavement, as soon as the front wheels stop rotating, there is no directional control. The purpose of ABS is to allow you to control your vehicle and steer around a hazard while braking. It does not make a vehicle stop faster. It will actually increase straight line stopping distance. I'm not sure I would want ABS on a bike, I do like it in my cars though but, I wish there was an off switch like the early systems had. Find the power wire to the module and install a toggle switch.
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If I had ABS on the Mighty Scura one time out in the Socal canyons.. they'd probably still be wondering what happened to me, and where I was. :evil: I do not like it, Sam, I am.. :smiley:
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When trying to stop on slippery pavement, as soon as the front wheels stop rotating, there is no directional control. The purpose of ABS is to allow you to control your vehicle and steer around a hazard while braking. It does not make a vehicle stop faster. It will actually increase straight line stopping distance. I'm not sure I would want ABS on a bike, I do like it in my cars though but, I wish there was an off switch like the early systems had. Find the power wire to the module and install a toggle switch.
Actually I'm pretty sure this is a partial truth.
It generally only lengthens distances in instances where actual lockup could have been helpful (plowing in gravel, sand, or snow).
But again, we need data.
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I often shut the ABS on my '08 Norge off. There are many situations where ABS is not an advantage. The '08 has a button to disable the ABS on the left side of the fairing. It has occasionally been handy in normal riding. I suspect there is a fuse you could pull somewhere.
The 07 has the button as well.
ZZ
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Actually I'm pretty sure this is a partial truth.
It generally only lengthens distances in instances where actual lockup could have been helpful (plowing in gravel, sand, or snow).
But again, we need data.
Meaningful data might be hard to come by since the use of ABS even in the face of factual data already known is still interpreted differently by the individual.
Even with identical road conditions one rider will swear by ABS while another will maintain that with proper experience and training they can stop as well with no ABS.
There is some truth to that, ABS was designed to address the masses, not the well experienced and trained driver/riders.
From my understanding, ABS isn't a consistant application of braking whereas the well trained rider can get the tires to the very limit before slip which is where maximum braking takes place.
More and more, technologies are put in play to make up for deficiencies in overall riding or driving performance of the masses. There is little doubt that these technologies help a great deal but like many such things, it starts a dependency that accelerates the lack of good rider/driver training.
As we've seen, riders are taught to just depress the brake pedal as hard as possible and not let up in an emergency stop, they don't even know how to use brakes to lock the rear while moderating the front to swing the back end and slide if it means saving their lives, they just hold on and wait for impact. ABS makes that scenario almost impossible yet many of us learned that at a young age.
ABS has saved lives, a fact but so has good training the newer generation of riders rarely get.
Not an argument, just an observation.
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Actually I'm pretty sure this is a partial truth.
It generally only lengthens distances in instances where actual lockup could have been helpful (plowing in gravel, sand, or snow).
But again, we need data.
ABS functions by disengaging the brake fluid pressure. As regards stopping distance this will necessarily increase the distance traveled by reducing braking force if engaged. Of course if the ABS is not activated braking will not be affected.
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The 07 has the button as well
[/quoteYeah, couldn't help but notice that after 8 years
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It's misleading to oversimplify ABS operation by focusing only on the system's ability to reduce pressure. That is only the tool the system uses to prevent wheel lockup. The more significant part of the system is that which measures wheel spin and uses the pressure modulation to control it.
Under most road conditions braking is most effective when the tire maintains contact with the road without sliding. Once a wheel locks and the tire slides over the road surface the friction coefficient drops and braking distances are increased.
The strongest and most efficient braking is threshold braking, bringing the tire to the point of lockup and maintaining it without locking.
ABS, by design, is computer regulated threshold braking.
It works by monitoring wheel spin and backing off brake pressure JUST ENOUGH to prevent wheel lockup.
In theory that's how the best human rider/driver would do it as well. Since there's no way for a human to tell they have reached the limits of traction without some sort of feedback (a chirping tire starting to slide and bite). At which point a human would have to reduce pressure as well.
The question is can a human be as precise as a machine in finding and maintaining that point through modulation.
Early automotive systems were indeed primitive and the industry has since learned a lot of lessons to improve their function.
It wasn't long into the history of automotive systems that even the best professional drivers couldn't beat the performance of modern ABS systems.
I suspect we're there (or close) with modern motorcycle systems. Think about it, the manufacturers obviously have test data. And if these systems were doing more harm than good the liability would be huge.
I would think data would be easy. Have professional riders perform multiple stops from a set speed both with and without ABS active. Compare best distances from both conditions.
I was under the impression someone posted such data last ring we debated this a few years ago.
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There is some truth to that, ABS was designed to address the masses, not the well experienced and trained driver/riders.
From my understanding, ABS isn't a consistant application of braking whereas the well trained rider can get the tires to the very limit before slip which is where maximum braking takes place.
If you inserted EXPERT rider instead of well trained I would agree. 99% (or more) of even the riders in this forum I would not put in that class. There are too many riders who think they are better than they really are.
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And we haven't even used the word "panic" yet.
In a lot of circumstances that would be an important factor in the equation.
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Kev , pretty sure someone did post some data on this subject . Some chose not to believe it :laugh:
The fact is , most braking distance data is generated by expert riders , you know , the guys that test motorbikes for a living , Canet , Ari Henning , the late Kevin Ash , and if memory serves the distances were very little different ABS on or off . Haven't had a braking related crash in years , in fact the last one was in 1979 when my T140V decided to leave its rear Lockheed disc brake actuated after the pedal had been released :shocked: (They were famous for this) Still , will bet money that ABS in its modern forms will prevent way more accidents than it will cause , even with experienced riders . Don't think most of us are capable of responding 1000 times a second :laugh:
Dusty
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It's misleading to oversimplify ABS operation by focusing only on the system's ability to reduce pressure. That is only the tool the system uses to prevent wheel lockup. The more significant part of the system is that which measures wheel spin and uses the pressure modulation to control it.
Under most road conditions braking is most effective when the tire maintains contact with the road without sliding. Once a wheel locks and the tire slides over the road surface the friction coefficient drops and braking distances are increased.
The strongest and most efficient braking is threshold braking, bringing the tire to the point of lockup and maintaining it without locking.
ABS, by design, is computer regulated threshold braking.
It works by monitoring wheel spin and backing off brake pressure JUST ENOUGH to prevent wheel lockup.
In theory that's how the best human rider/driver would do it as well. Since there's no way for a human to tell they have reached the limits of traction without some sort of feedback (a chirping tire starting to slide and bite). At which point a human would have to reduce pressure as well.
The question is can a human be as precise as a machine in finding and maintaining that point through modulation.
Early automotive systems were indeed primitive and the industry has since learned a lot of lessons to improve their function.
It wasn't long into the history of automotive systems that even the best professional drivers couldn't beat the performance of modern ABS systems.
I suspect we're there (or close) with modern motorcycle systems. Think about it, the manufacturers obviously have test data. And if these systems were doing more harm than good the liability would be huge.
I would think data would be easy. Have professional riders perform multiple stops from a set speed both with and without ABS active. Compare best distances from both conditions.
I was under the impression someone posted such data last ring we debated this a few years ago.
Then what is the pulsing you feel in the pedal? I don't think the ABS maintains a constant pressure right to the limit of tire adhesion but takes it to start if slip and then modulates it.
Unless they've changed how it works (possible) you can find videos of ABS working which shows the tires reaching break free and then rotation.
Take a bike with ABS and apply full and hold the rear brake. You can feel the ABS, that would be pulsing, not constant pressure. Maybe something changed?
I know the Norge pulses. The fronts might work different but on a gravel road, the abs does not apply a near adhesion limit braking force, it pulses as it would have to.
I'm a bit confused. Is the ABS maintaining constant pressure just below the limit of tire breaking loose or is it modulating it just at the brink?
I'm asking because the driver would maintain constant pressure just below the skidding and change it only as the tires begin to slide again. It seems that the plusing I've felt on the Norge was very rapid but had a sort of pattern and didn't vary.
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I thought I described it, perhaps not sufficiently.
The pulsing IS modulation of the pressure, but don't get lost with the reduction of pressure. Each pulse you feel is a slight reduction followed by slight increase back to the point of lockup. That occurs faster than a human could react.
It is far more likely that if a human gets to the actual point of lockup that they will keep it locked longer and/or release it more than the ABS system.
Think about how people were taught to drive on ice, pumping the brakes. No way they can pump (modulate) as fast or as accurately as a computer.
And honestly, I think it is also far more likely that must just don't ever get anywhere near lockup in the first place, unless traction is compromised.
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FWIW, the new GTD class in the WeatherTech Cup series is based on the European GT3 specs and allow the use of ABS...the GTLM class (much faster cars without ABS) drivers are now complaining that the GTD guys can drive deeper (on the brakes later and harder) into the corners than GTLM cars can...maybe doesn't translate to bikes but some food for thought, anyway...
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I thought the point of ABS was to allow your to steer while braking.
Just putting in my two cents worth.
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I thought the point of ABS was to allow your to steer while braking.
Just putting in my two cents worth.
That is one of the top level talking points, but it is nothing you cannot achieve on your own with skill, training and practice. People have been braking during turns for as long as there have been motorcycles.
That generalized fear ranks right up there with "Don't use the front brake, it will throw you over the handlebars.."
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I thought the point of ABS was to allow your to steer while braking.
Just putting in my two cents worth.
Well, the POINT is to prevent a loss of control/crash which comes with wheel lock up during braking. So to some extent yes it does help you still control the vehicle meaning maintain steering control. But don't lose sight of the that purpose is "better braking".
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I've probably said this before in another thread, but I'm personally pretty ambivalent about ABS. Or at least the ABS systems I've had personal experience with.
Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of occasions in which an ABS system would permit me to stop faster than if I had been on a similar bike without ABS. For example, I tested an 05 Yamaha FJR with ABS a fair bit on a long driveway at the place I lived, which in the fall would be covered with deep, wet, slimy rotting pecan leaves. The ABS would cycle like crazy, and I would stop faster than I would have expected. Without ABS, my front braking would have been pretty cautious. On the other hand, I've never actually had to stop hard in these sorts of conditions, so this ABS benefit is a bit theoretical.
But I have had the ABS scare me numerous times in the real world when it wouldn't permit me to stop when I knew I could stop on a non-ABS system. A previous poster mentioned gravel roads. Yes, been there, done that. The worse was descending a reasonably steep graveled road that intersected with a paved main highway. I was already going down the gravel road when I realized that there was an on-coming car on the paved road that would probably hit me if I didn't slow my descent. ABS on BMW F800 wouldn't permit me to do what I wanted, but instead "helped" me by constantly releasing the brakes. Very scary--and I wasn't too keen on the ABS system.
Similar situation regularly arose with several urban roads on my daily commute that had a lot of bumps and heaves just before a stop sign. On my non-ABS bikes, I could safety stop before the sign with no drama. If I wanted to push it a bit, I could safety stop very quickly over those bumps, with the tires chirping and hopping a bit.
But when I would do the exact same thing on the ABS equipped BMW, it would always release the front brakes for an amazingly long period of time, and I would just sail towards the sign. Again, very scary, and not what I wanted. And ironically, it meant I was more concerned and cautious about being able to stop when riding the ABS bike, compared to my other non-ABS bikes.
Finally, I think a lot of people fail to fully appreciate the fundamental fact that an ABS system does not increase the traction available to you in a low traction environment. It simply attempts to help you make the most of what you have. But what that means is that the wise man will have already SLOWED WAY DOWN when confronted with rain, wet leaves, etc. It won't do you any good if you can't stop in time with the ABS because traction is diminished--all the ABS did was make sure you arrived at the scene of the crash upright. But you still hit the object.
So I think you are definitely better off being very aware of compromised traction and the need to freaking slow down, as opposed to blithely trusting the ABS to save you bacon.
And yes, I agree it's probably even better to be aware, slow down, and also have a good ABS system.
And yes, it's entirely possible that ABS systems on other bikes are better. Or that the technology is getting better.
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Well considered. :smiley: Naturally, I agree.
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The 07 has the button as well
[/quoteYeah, couldn't help but notice that after 8 years
Huzo, firstly, I was simply commenting to the person I quoted that the 07 had the same button.
Furthermore, you did not indicate in your original post how long, or how familiar, you were with the bike. For all we knew, you recently bought it.
So, that begs the question: Why throw any money at something that you can turn off or free at your discretion?
Now, I would assume you are aware that ABS in and of itself, is more a traction aid rather than a braking aid. It is supposed to keep the wheels from locking up based on available traction during braking. I'll leave it at that as I already have read other responses to this, and yes, I owned an 07 norge for some time myself.
John Henry
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The ABS on the BMW F800's is known for over aggressively reducing braking on the back wheel, especially when going over bumps. On the other hand, the ABS and traction control on my Yamaha Super Tenere is fantastic- just aim it, twist the throttle or squeeze the brakes as desired, and the electronics will sort it all out and take care of you. ABS is a good thing, especially on vehicles like motorcycles that go down if the front wheel is locked for not even a second.
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Very educational thread. I've never ridden a bike with ABS, now I know what to expect when I do. Seems to me that we're in a transitional period era with this, but I'd say in another decade or so most riders will have been exposed to ABS in motorcycles, perhaps ABS will get better too, and it will be normal and non ABS bikes will feel awkward and unsafe then. The scale will eventually tip over.
A little like traction control on cars. I disliked it for years in my manual transmission car, then i learned how to work with it and now I mostly love it and couldn't imagine not having it (in rain or winters especially). It is nice to be able to turn it off/on with a press of a button however in those instances where I absolutely know it will hinder having it enabled.
What really scares me now as a motorcyclist, are new cars that are on the market with Automatic Braking when objects are detected. I definitely will be increasing my spacing when riding behind cars knowing that technology is out there!
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Ahhhh! Reading this is like discovering the fountain of youth. I haven't read a thread or article like this since BMW introduced ABS for motorcycles in 1988 on the K100RS/ABS. Thanks to many of you for momentarily taking me back in time 25 years or more.
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Just a little bump on an old thread.
Some of the comments might be worth taking on board in conjunction with the “ABS - essential or not” thread..
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Just a little bump on an old thread.
Some of the comments might be worth taking on board in conjunction with the “ABS - essential or not” thread..
Last month remove the failed servo/ABS from a 2005 R1200GS. $3,000 for a new unit was not in the cards. Two brake line jumpers and remove the computer from the servo/ABS pump and build a 4" square back panel for it. Took about 6 hours and $25 in tools and material now I could do it in 1/2 the time or less and for about $6 in material.
All I lost was the ABS function but still had really good non-ABS brakes
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I assume you don't have any kind of regular roadworthy inspection scheme where you are.
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I assume you don't have any kind of regular roadworthy inspection scheme where you are.
Sure do. Annual state safety inspection. In my State like most Motorcycles are not required to have functional ABS
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Sure do. Annual state safety inspection. In my State like most Motorcycles are not required to have functional ABS
However if the factory fitted it would it not be a major safety system that would be expected to be functional? (may vary from region to region). Similar to emissions a 1970's vehicle needs to meet the emission of the era a 2000's need to meet 2000's standards.
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Would be good if these comments went onto the other ABS “essential” thread.
Just bumped this old one to drag some insights into the here and now..
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I may have missed it, but I've not seen a mention of abs routine required maintenance, including frequency, tools needed, etc.
abs saved my bacon yrs ago. -'93 k75s w/abs. Clove Lakes Expwy. Staten Is. NY. High speed commuter traffic - going home.
I was in the outside lane @ ~ 70 m/h with a generous bunch of space in front. A p/up carrying a wooden picnic table (w/attached benches), upside down, overhanging the cab roof, wanted to fill the several hundred feet of clear hiway in front of me. The driver left the cozy spot behind a trailer. In the newly acquired wind blast the table began to levitate. Cars were close behind me. The next lane over, on my right, was packed. I grabbed and stomped. The table stood up, spilled out and broke, into many pieces. I bumped over lots of wood, bolts and splinters, but stayed upright. W/in a few minutes you couldn't tell anything unusual had happened. Except for my sweat and still racing hear beatt. The p/up was gone.
Still I'm not fond of abs. What every mc should have is the best braking equipment available, sized for the app. Make those changes b4 blowing big bux on an exhaust system, lights or luggage. R3~
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Even the best rider will be caught out sometime, thats where ABS comes in to its own. Crazy to say you dont need to have it, If you ride well you will probabally never make it work, but there will be a time.....
Not bike related, Years ago when I was working in Motor racing there was a German stunt driver amazing Guy could do anything with a car. two wheels... multiple rotation spins and keep in the same direction etc etc. anyway he was Killed in a sportscar race after the pace car came out... just lost concentration and he was gone..
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Many years ago (37), I was riding a yamaha xt 250 1982 model, I switched bikes with a friend riding a Suzuki gsx 250. Starting from a traffic light after 50 meters
one old guy suddenly decide to cross the road, I grab the front brake like I used to do on my bike, only that the front brake was a very strong disk.
I avoid the old guy But after I was sliding on the road for 15 meters,
Then I started learning how to use disk brakes.
Now I ride a V7 ii, never feel the ABS pulsing except two times that on purpose brake hard on a slippery road, just to test that is working,
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The only way to activate ABS is to lock one of the wheels. If you could truly brake like Rossi, holding that ragged edge right before wheel lock-up, you would never experience what ABS felt like. The reality is that without ABS, you would lock or nearly lock, release a little pressure and come at it again, but I doubt you could do it 6 or more times a second. Since a skidding tire will take longer to stop than a tire at the edge of locking, your straight-line stopping distance in the real world with ABS chattering away ia not likely any longer than it would have been with your 2-3 foot skids as you jump on and off the brakes. Can I stop faster without activating ABS than I can if I do? Yes. Do road conditions (or my frame of mind/arthritis pain/caffeine level) always allow me to channel my inner Rossi when a deer shoots out? Nope. Nice to have when I am not at the top of my game. I find it easier to waffle the rear lever, let the computer sort that out, and I worry about modulating the front. I have only activated the front once on a little bit of road grit, but while it freaked my shit a bit I did easily maintain my braking level when the tire returned to clean pavement. Certainly no longer a stop than it would have been had I skidded across that spot, released, and then came back at it.
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I've experienced Brembo radial MC's and calipers, w/out abs, on several bikes, plus my '17, V7 III racer. (converted shortly after purchase). Once tried you will never go back to what is on your stock, new or used bike. The difference in modulating braking affect on any surface is outstanding. There is no comparison to your previous experience w/stock systems.
I'll not go back to abs. I've had my share of problems, pita trouble shooting, maintenance and near crashes. R3~
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The only way to activate ABS is to lock one of the wheels.
Bike ABS doesn't work like car ABS.
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Bike ABS doesn't work like car ABS.
So what are the differences? Does it take lean angle into consideration and intervene sooner if you are dragging a knee? Does it intervene sooner, before lockup? Does it have to do with how road speed is compared to wheel speed at each end? My curiosity is piqued. For simplicity, can we compare the average car system to that on a Guzzi?
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So what are the differences? Does it take lean angle into consideration and intervene sooner if you are dragging a knee? Does it intervene sooner, before lockup? Does it have to do with how road speed is compared to wheel speed at each end? My curiosity is piqued. For simplicity, can we compare the average car system to that on a Guzzi?
Pretty much all of what you suggested. A car will wait until the wheel ceases to rotate and depending on the system much older ones will release the pressure on multiple brakes latter ones will do it for the individual wheel. On a bike its a a combination of deceleration rate front vs rear wheel speeds and the point where the system thinks lockup is likely.
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However if the factory fitted it would it not be a major safety system that would be expected to be functional? (may vary from region to region). Similar to emissions a 1970's vehicle needs to meet the emission of the era a 2000's need to meet 2000's standards.
Functional brakes are a requirement for the anual safety insection. Doesn't matter if they are traditonal or "enhanced" with ABS.
Since brakes "enhanced" with ABS is not a requirement the ABS does not have to be operational or even there. As long as the brakes are operational the bike meets the minimum requirement.
Even if ABS was required how does the safety insection mechanic test it. Does he go out to the closed course behind the shop water down the test area then get the bike to speed and grab a handful of brakes too see if they lockup or modulate? Or do they just look for the idiot light on the dash to be illuminated? If it the latter (and they do) what does that prove? It only proves the light bulb is good.
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Even if ABS was required how does the safety inspection mechanic test it. Does he go out to the closed course behind the shop water down the test area then get the bike to speed and grab a handful of brakes too see if they lockup or modulate? Or do they just look for the idiot light on the dash to be illuminated? If it the latter (and they do) what does that prove? It only proves the light bulb is good.
Here in Maine that's how they do it . If the abs light stays on when the bike is running you won't pass inspection. I had to take the servo pump out of my friends K1200 and send it off to Module Master to be rebuilt . It was an almost 3,000 dollar part thru BMW. It came back good as new for $400 incl. shipping with a two year warranty.
They will do auto units as well.
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Huzo.. buy a1200 sport 4V. Same bike no ABS :-)
all kidding aside, I didn't know that the 2007 Norge had abs. As I posted in the other thread you started, I prefer non-abs bikes and why I will likely keep my 1200 sport for touring and the GRiSO for my day sport thuggish riding.
I'm sure that in a panic emergency situation we're all hope is lost and all bets are off the table PBS might provide an advantage but I prefer riding without it.
As you've probably surmised, I have no advice about how to disable the system. I am after all, only a 5-year gootsie novice :-)
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Here's some helpful information
https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/two-wheeler-and-powersports/riding-safety-systems/motorcycle-abs/
and KTM did a cool demonstration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M
And this quote:
According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the rate of fatal crashes is 31 percent lower for motorcycles equipped with optional anti-lock brakes than for the same models without them. If that’s not enough to convince you, here’s another number:
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety released another report noting that motorcycles with engines 250cc and higher without ABS are 37% more likely to be involved in a fatal crash.
from
https://www.motorcycle.com/features/why-you-need-abs-on-your-next-motorcycle.html
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2007 seems to be the first year of ABS. perhaps it wasn't very refined.
Looking at the difference in these two schematics you should be able to figure out how it can be disabled.
You could start by just unbolting the pickups and progress from there, easy enough to re-instate it if you change your mind.
Without ABS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
With ABS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge_ABS.gif
Actually if you look at the ECU Blue Connector Speed Sensor input 24, you would need that
I don't think the earlier Norge would have as many targets, the ABS card possibly scales its output 23 to match.
You could possibly wire one of the sensors direct to the ECU with a different No of targets on the rear (or front) wheel.
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Having just gone through most of the posts on this subject , it's painfully reminiscent of the discussions years ago about "carbs vs fuel injection" , and
most of us know where that went :evil: . Peter
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Having just gone through most of the posts on this subject , it's painfully reminiscent of the discussions years ago about "carbs vs fuel injection" , and
most of us know where that went :evil: . Peter
While I tend to agree Huzo is not one to be deterred, he's a stubborn bugger lol
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Having just gone through most of the posts on this subject , it's painfully reminiscent of the discussions years ago about "carbs vs fuel injection" , and
most of us know where that went :evil: . Peter
Think it's bad now? ................... ............ go back to BMW's introduction of ABS/version one on the 1988 K100RS/ABS. Wow! 33 years ago.
My first K100RS was an 85 model pre-ABS model. The blue and white was my 89 with ABS.
(https://i.ibb.co/4YTr349/Couple-of-bricks-I-ve-owned.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4YTr349)
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Hi, 2 vehicles stand out with me regarding ABS. We had a Suburban at work roughly 2000 and every time I drove it in winter I could expect to scare myself coming to a stop in the middle of an intersection. It made all kinds of ABS type sound effects but seemed to work against stopping. My current haggard beater is a 98 Buick Century and it's hard to believe it is from the same company.The ABS on it is totally amazing and I trust it completely. Stand on the pedal and it finds you every possible scrap of traction. If that Suburban ABS had an off switch I would have used it for sure.
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I've probably said this before in another thread, but I'm personally pretty ambivalent about ABS. Or at least the ABS systems I've had personal experience with.
Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of occasions in which an ABS system would permit me to stop faster than if I had been on a similar bike without ABS. For example, I tested an 05 Yamaha FJR with ABS a fair bit on a long driveway at the place I lived, which in the fall would be covered with deep, wet, slimy rotting pecan leaves. The ABS would cycle like crazy, and I would stop faster than I would have expected. Without ABS, my front braking would have been pretty cautious. On the other hand, I've never actually had to stop hard in these sorts of conditions, so this ABS benefit is a bit theoretical.
But I have had the ABS scare me numerous times in the real world when it wouldn't permit me to stop when I knew I could stop on a non-ABS system. A previous poster mentioned gravel roads. Yes, been there, done that. The worse was descending a reasonably steep graveled road that intersected with a paved main highway. I was already going down the gravel road when I realized that there was an on-coming car on the paved road that would probably hit me if I didn't slow my descent. ABS on BMW F800 wouldn't permit me to do what I wanted, but instead "helped" me by constantly releasing the brakes. Very scary--and I wasn't too keen on the ABS system.
Similar situation regularly arose with several urban roads on my daily commute that had a lot of bumps and heaves just before a stop sign. On my non-ABS bikes, I could safety stop before the sign with no drama. If I wanted to push it a bit, I could safety stop very quickly over those bumps, with the tires chirping and hopping a bit.
But when I would do the exact same thing on the ABS equipped BMW, it would always release the front brakes for an amazingly long period of time, and I would just sail towards the sign. Again, very scary, and not what I wanted. And ironically, it meant I was more concerned and cautious about being able to stop when riding the ABS bike, compared to my other non-ABS bikes.
Finally, I think a lot of people fail to fully appreciate the fundamental fact that an ABS system does not increase the traction available to you in a low traction environment. It simply attempts to help you make the most of what you have. But what that means is that the wise man will have already SLOWED WAY DOWN when confronted with rain, wet leaves, etc. It won't do you any good if you can't stop in time with the ABS because traction is diminished--all the ABS did was make sure you arrived at the scene of the crash upright. But you still hit the object.
So I think you are definitely better off being very aware of compromised traction and the need to freaking slow down, as opposed to blithely trusting the ABS to save you bacon.
And yes, I agree it's probably even better to be aware, slow down, and also have a good ABS system.
And yes, it's entirely possible that ABS systems on other bikes are better. Or that the technology is getting better.
That explains my point of view much better than I was able to.
The ABS can introduce a fear that was not there in the first place.
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Is it possible to remove the ABS on my '07 Norge ? I prefer not to have it intervene when I've decided where and how hard I want to brake. Had an issue once in the heavy rain where I knew I could have stopped in time to avoid a car, but the system thought I was going to crash. ( I wasn't ). The ABS reduced the braking for me so I wouldn't crash, and nearly caused me to crash !
There was a guy over on the BMW R NINE T forum who rigged up a switch on his handle bar and wired in the abs sensor wires.
So he ended up with switchable abs and a really neat job.
The only downside was flashing abs warning light when switched off.