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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: normzone on April 29, 2016, 02:25:38 PM
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WTF?
Background notes - I've been resetting the trip odometer as a fueling reminder, but the ability to reset it ended recently, leaving me with just a functioning, if not a wholly forthcoming speedometer needle for instrumentation.
But based on my memory and the 3x5 card in my wallet covered in notes, I fueled up fifty miles ago.
But when I started it up this morning, the fuel pump sounded a little...anxious. The usual click and hum, instead of being it's usual reassured, business-like self, ended on an uncertain up-pitch, like one of those people you talk to who say everything as if they weren't sure about it, or all statements are really questions.
So, no big deal, keep an eye on it, beautiful day for a ride, let's go. About a block later, sputtering like running out of fuel, then it recovered. Okay, I'll put up with that once, even if it's never done it before. Then it did it again ten seconds later, then again five seconds after that.
Okay, I'm turning around hoping to make it home without a tow. The bike dies a hundred yards downhill from the driveway.
I call for backup. Passer-bys offer advice, and the guy on the third floor of the apartment building I'm in front of says he'll watch the bike. I love people...sometimes.
With the cap off I can't hear or see gas slosh in the tank. Janet takes me to get a gallon, and begins talking about us buying a truck or a van to save money on towing, and to double as a weekend fun vehicle. We're perpetually strapped for cash, but I like her outlook.
I put a gallon in and turn key. Something screams like a metal filing cabinet dragged across a concrete floor. The bike runs and I take it home. Drive the car to work and here I am.
All counsel appreciated... :sad:
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Sounds like the pump needs a good flushing out . My external pump needs it every so often . Either that , or it is about to go kablooie :laugh:
Dusty
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The sound is kinda like it's asking WHY ARE YOU STRANGLING ME?!
It sounds like the classic plugged/inoperative petcock on an external pump FI. Someone will be along to tell you how to do the plungerectomy to defeat the 'lectricalness of the petcock and you should be ok.
Else, I sucked crap into mine once. Remember the filter is downstream of the pump, so all crud goes through the impeller before it is filtered out. The impeller is the pump armature, so if you bind the impeller, you bind the motor. Reversing the leads on the pump motor will blow anything stuck in there back upstream.
That said, I still like option "A" better.
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you should be able to hear the electric tap open with a clang when you turn on the key.. look at the little wires coming out the bottom of it and see if one broke, it might be hard to notice..
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Clean the petcock/strainer and flush the tank.
Replace the filter for good measure.
Why not fix the low fuel light?
Why not fix the trip knob?
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[OMG] - My parents belonged to an obscure religious sect, whose members were devoted to reducing the amount of telltale indicators active in the known world. They additionally believed that using one's fingers to perform rotating motions with small mechanical fixtures was personally offensive in the eyes of the supreme being that designs, manufactures, sells and services universes. I have attempted to outgrow my upbringing, but it is difficult to overcome the programming installed in your formative years.
Actually, please see the comment above regarding "strapped for cash". And I've not heard anybody speak lovingly of the warning light. I will act on your advice regarding the strainer, the tank and filter though - thank you.
[fotoguzzi] - I will look closely, and listen with both ears this weekend - thank you.
[rodekyll] - The plungerectomy is a permanent mechanical defeat for the electric petcock, rendering it a freeflow zone? Or is it an overhaul? I wait with bated breath for other responses, and I will search this archive tonight.
The filter is downstream of the pump...is that a mechanical necessity, or a vestigial artifact of design philosophy? I will look at momentarily reversing the leads on the pump motor - are there any ECM hazards or fuse dangers to such an act ? Thank you.
[Dusty] - Jack L. Chalker says hello. Let's hope it's flushing, and not kablooie. What are the symptoms of kablooie? Thank you.
So it sounds as though my weekend plans have changed...
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As I've said in other related topics, these fuel pumps are designed to push, not pull. They don't like to lift a column of fuel and they don't like sucking through a restriction. They prefer an oversubstantial gravity feed on the supply side. So they are more able to deal with a progressively restrictive filter on the downstream side.
From what I understand, the plungerectomy sets the electric petcock into a constant flow position. Some folks think it's enough to make it permanently open and then unplug it. Others think the electric pectcock should be done away with completely and replaced with a mechanical valve. Still others spay or neuter their pet cock and then install a quick disconnect between the spigot and the pump. This one makes the most sense to me, but I seldom do the sensible thing. I solved the problem by tossing the gas tank and fueling directly from a pair of 5gal jerry cans. You may want to wait for someone to describe the plungerectomy before following my lead.
You may also want to verify that you've got an electric petcock and that it's the problem before you delve into fixing it. You might just have vapor lock. :evil:
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you poured a gallon in it and drove it home.
Did the scream sound continue while riding it home?
Was it just out of gas?
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OOG (out of gas) is a possibility, given my tendency to slip through alternate universes. It may be that the guy before me who maintained this bike in this universe fuels it at different intervals than I do.
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So being a guy who has never ridden a bike with a fancy "fuel pump" the first thing I thought of when I saw the title was, "You can't hurt gravity". File cabinet across concrete, what a lovely sound.
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AHA! A plan!
Here's how I see if it happens again without getting stranded downhill from home. I'll ride it up and down the apartment complex driveway to the apartments uphill from mine until:
The neighbors make me stop - or
It does it again - or
Or I feel confident that I was really just out of gas
Stand by...
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FWIW: a EV tank is good for 160mi and not run out. New to the new bikes, from pictures, the Bassa has the same 5 gallon tank.
Hope this helps,
Tom
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So if cash is tight - carry a small plastic gas can you can strap on the back. No tow and you go.....
Mark
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So I ride the bike up the driveway next to my place to the apartments further up the hill, back down and up again three times.
Bike runs fine. I ride to the Shell Station, which is also a Lourdes taco shop and carries about eleventy-seven kinds of gourmet beer.
Bike runs fine. I buy a bottle of beer and fuel the bike - it takes 3.7 gallons. That plus the one I put in it to get home is 4.7, which matches the record for the last time I ran it empty (see link)
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75723.0;nowap
So, I logged my fuel up out of the memory plan, and the bike ran out of gas in my parking spot.
Thank you all for your help. [Markcarovilli], that's wise. [Hymes], when it did that sound I paused, thought for a long while, and asked my wife how she'd describe that sound - she said wailing. Mine was more precise, but her's accurately described what the bike was trying to tell me.
[Chet], it did not, and you nailed it. [Rodekyll], much thanks for the techxplanation. [OMG], I may compromise with the bicycle speedo fix that [kglorioso] (Ralph) uses. [TomH], the bike gets very poor mileage - 130 to a tank maximum.
So now, about that bottle of beer... :boozing:
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You guys have got to stop attempting to wean your motorbikes off gasoline :rolleyes:
Dusty
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Normzone, you must be a pilot :wink:
And yes, a Bassa will have an electric petcock unless changed to a manual one with an on off knob
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Another FWIW: My 2004 EVT Hydro, the low fuel light comes on at about 3 to 3.04 gallons used (with freeway riding, goes out off the freeway on the streets, but comes back on a mile or so later).
The 160mi on my EVT was from a Guzzi guru. At 160 you need to stop he said as in now. 130? you may need a tune up?
Tom
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Norm - and I'm putting this as gently as I can - your gas mileage sucks. We need to figure out what's up there. You're hurtin fer certin when my EV-powered, Convert-based, 2x-heavy trike gets better mileage than than your stock 5-speed Bassa. What have you done to the poor dear?
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OOG (out of gas) is a possibility, given my tendency to slip through alternate universes. It may be that the guy before me who maintained this bike in this universe fuels it at different intervals than I do.
Are you sure that you, yourself, are not actually a Jack Chalker character? :tongue:
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Are you sure that you, yourself, are not actually a Jack Chalker character? :tongue:
Nathan Brazil ? :laugh:
Dusty
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I ran my Bassa dry going 90mph (loaded for 2 week trip) after 164 miles.. lucky me it was near the exit to Welcome MN..
BTW it was 90f and 90% humidity, I needed water more than the Bassa needed fuel..
It's a long story but there's the cliff notes
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Another FWIW: My 2004 EVT Hydro, the low fuel light comes on at about 3 to 3.04 gallons used (with freeway riding, goes out off the freeway on the streets, but comes back on a mile or so later).
Mine on my 2004 EV comes on at 3.7 gallons used.
But then, that is after I corrected it last year. Yes, the numbskulls that designed it had the light come on at 120 miles, or so, Then you have 60 more miles to go. So I tended to ignore the light, since it is on 30% of the time. So yes, I ran out often. After modifying the sensor, it doesn't light until closer to 150 miles, and you have 30 miles left. So when it lights, you had better look for fuel. I prefer that.
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Actually, please see the comment above regarding "strapped for cash". And I've not heard anybody speak lovingly of the warning light. I will act on your advice regarding the strainer, the tank and filter though - thank you.
I guess I am used to grabbing a wrench and fixing stuff like that for no, or little, cost.
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There was a time when I said things like that also. Not so much any more. The thrill of hauling tools to and from, and then working in a parking space has worn thin.
[Rodekyll], while I accept full responsibility, the poor thing is as I got her. Granted, in 14K miles since acquired, I've never had anybody sync her sexy throttle bodies, or anything else other than tires, shocks, some weld bead on the side stand, a speedo cable, a few batteries, brake pads. It has always had scads of power and piss poor fuel economy - no doubt the Shower Commander III is a factor in that.
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30mpg? A faulty or poorly connected engine temperature sensor will do that.
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30mpg? A faulty or poorly connected engine temperature sensor will do that.
The name of the Chinese pilot says it all. Sum Ting Wong.
I'll get me hat..
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Fill up when you can and not when you have to. Perhaps it is a mind-set thing, I used to wait until I thought I was "on empty" (either based on trip odometer or fuel empty light) and then I would start looking for gas. Now I fill up when I can, not when I have to. I can get 220 miles on a full tank (V7II Stone) without running out (I haven't tried for more) but now any time I have more than 100 -150 miles on a tank I stop and fill up at the first convenient gas station I happen to pass along my route. I find that I am never going out of my way or using Google Maps looking for gas or worring about running out on some deserted back road.
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Here is a thread about the engine temperature sensor and its adapter
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43379.0
The adapter is made of plastic and subject to breakage.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=61859.0 and Howards' post.
Don't know if the brass holder is available any more.
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Wow. I have a personal goal of filling up every hundred, or I run out somewhere around 120.
Engine temp sensor? There is a doodad thingy in there with a blue connector...Thanks [Twhitaker].
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The least risky route would be to wire in the resister & leave the holder alone.
As to the plungerectomy, if you did that you would need to drain the tank the next time you have to remove it.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=39
Much better.
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IIRC, you have a problem with the fuel level sender too? The connectors could be switched. This usually shorts out the sender & makes the pump work hard.
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So, I decided to get internal, and check on my valves.
Plugs were obviously rich - no surprises, I guess.
And for the first time, the dreaded milkshake in the valve covers. The last ride was only a couple of miles, but not exactly a sign of running too warm either.
So I gaze at the temp sensor - black cable harness, blue AMP connector, wire clip, blue connector sticking our of brass sensor, going into black fitting into the head.
Black fitting does not look like plastic, but does not go ting! like the brass does when I tink on it.
I pulled the clip and the connector came off easily. The two contacts look clean.
Is that brass sensor the good stuff, or do I need to get surgical with the black housing it goes into?
Or do I add a resistor (have not searched out that link yet) and lie to the ECM ?
Replace the sensor? Wrap the engine in aluminum foil?
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Is the sensor broken or are you wanting to break something?
Find someone nearby to connect GuzziDiag to it and look for an actual issue. It easily just needs the TPS set properly. Or maybe someone at some point bumped up the trim setting too rich.
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Brass sensor lug is the good stuff if available for the 90's EV. Is your sensor in the valve cover? It might not be the same as my '01 or '04.
A brass holder will will look like brass -- not black. Use some heat sink compound (some use antiseize) to improve temperature sensing. Be sure it's tight.
Seriously -- something's wrong with your tuning. Making it wronger by lying to the ecu isn't going to solve anything. It's like solving the problem of bleeding all over the floor from your severed finger by putting your hand in a bucket. Find the problem and fix it. Chances are it's something simple like a mis-set tps or improperly synched throttle bodies.
What do you have to check the basics of tps and throttle synch?
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I see you guys speak of a temp sensor, is that the little black unit that hangs around near the back of the instrument cluster on my Norge? It's a small rectangular block about 3/4" x 1/2" with a small "nipple" thing on one end, ( sorry that's the only way I could describe it). Mine just hangs around inside the fairing and always has. Can someone tell me where it plugs in? I can't find a spot for it, and does it give information to the ECU or something over my head like that.
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I see you guys speak of a temp sensor, is that the little black unit that hangs around near the back of the instrument cluster on my Norge? It's a small rectangular block about 3/4" x 1/2" with a small "nipple" thing on one end, ( sorry that's the only way I could describe it). Mine just hangs around inside the fairing and always has. Can someone tell me where it plugs in? I can't find a spot for it, and does it give information to the ECU or something over my head like that.
That sounds more like the connector for the optional (EU only) TomTom GPS.
The temp sensors for the Norge are in the airbox and on the engine itself, not up near the cluster. I could be wrong, but then the universe would be askew...
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[Huzo], I've no clue about a Norge, sorry. Mine on the Bassa is in the right cylinder head, inboard, at the rear.
[rodekyll], so since I'm already bullshitting the ECU with the Flower Expander III, adding injury to insult with the resistor is not adviseable? Okay.
I have nada to check the TPS and throttle sync with - I know threre's some threads here, and I do have a multimeter, but I know squat about those parts of the bike, last having done such stuff on my Eldo a few decades ago. I've always suspected somethin' ain't synchroed like it should be. Am I better off paying to have it done, or can a fellow such as myself figure it out? Do I need two tubes and a container of grenadine?
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The name of the Chinese pilot says it all. Sum Ting Wong.
I'll get me hat..
Something more like "Sham min jai San Diego Kwai low. Negah see fut." or loose translation "White boy in San Diego is f_cked."
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PCIII? Someone has already stuck your hand in the bucket. There's nothing constructive you can do moving forward from this point. You need to strip out all the bullshit, as you say, and establish the no-bullshit baseline for the bike. Then if you still need a PCIII you can add it. My bet is that you won't.
If you don't have the equipment and/or don't feel comfortable setting the tps/ecu trim and synching the throttle bodies, post your location. Someone probably has the tools and experience that you need and maybe for a nominal fee will meet you somewhere and help you get set up. Sometimes you can find a guy at a rally who'll sort it out for a good dinner and a tank of gas.
The baseline FI settings is the foundation upon which the power, economy, and performance of the bike is built. It should not be guessed at. Once set, it should not change by itself. This isn't the sort of thing you need to do so often that you need to understand it to maintain the bike -- but it's something important enough that it must be understood and done properly. So there's no shame (but a lot of reward) in hiring the job out.
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I didn't get a real reassuring feeling from the fellow I bought the bike from in January 2014. I'd been driving all day and was pretty fried when I got there, and it was a quick exchange of money and stories. His tales of mechanical maintenance and the records he handed me were all okay, but when it got to talking about tuning the bike he said something like " I asked the expert at the shop who works on it, and he said it was good enough, leave it alone ".
That may be true, but I would like to know what map went into it. Any clues based on the year of install? The first owner did
"Map install" in November of 2002
Power Commander install in January of 2003
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I have no clue.
[edit]
You have a P8 ECU. It has a chip in it that is mappable. Some people made custom chips. If yours has one, it should be labeled as such. Maybe one of our P8 gurus can help with that. I have always thought the P8 was unnecessarily complicated and way too big, so I've avoided them. have a 15M ECU. It's a completely different animal. So while I can give you advice on tuning yours, I don't know what goes into the mappy parts of the brain.
OTOH I've got a perfectly yummy moose chili going on -- just the right amount of feathers and claws. If you want to swing the bike up this way you can have a bowl and some chili. If you have to ask what is the proper amount of feathers and claws in a moose chili, maybe not.
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[rodekyll], you know I rely on you for things like this. Don't make me ride all the way to Alaska and sort this out in person :bow:
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It's not a P8 ECU, it's a 15M. No chip.🔬
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The 1999 Bassa may have the 15M ECU.
If the head temp sensor is a blue connector on the sensor, in a plastic piece in the RIGHT HEAD. You likely have a 15M. If it is the LEFT valve cover, it is the P8.
Leave the temps sensor alone until you know it is bad for a fact.
Get a tuneup , sync , and TPS set. You can do it yourself cheaply if you are willing to learn.
You have a PC III or some such gadget that hoses excess fuel in the engine. Don't tear off the temp sensor. Get it back to stock and get a proper tune.
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Norm , the couple of M15 ECU equipped bikes I've had experience with were not too bad from the factory . Get rid of the power subvertor and see how it runs .
Dusty
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Reading back I see the OP says the sensor is in the right head, inboard toward the rear. That's the 15M sensor location. Missed it earlier. It puts me on more familiar ground though.
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A correctly set up PCIII can be an asset on a heavily modified bike. Look at Chuck's Scura RC. That thing is absurd! On a near stock Cali though it will achieve little. The 15M is a fairly straightforward device with a lot less of the interpolative features of later controllers like the W5AM or 7SM. It is also important that whoever installs it understands how it works and doesn't just stuff it on a dyno and do maximum power, full throttle runs and then just save the trims. In so many cases I've seen add-ons like PC's and other cruder devices strapped on to bikes that are just poorly set up. The end result is almost always that they drink fuel and underperform to buggery.
As others are saying. Take the PC off and get it properly tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. Make sure the engine temp sensor is sending an accurate signal any you'll most likely find most of your problems will evaporate.
pete
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Norm, just to add to what everybody is saying about the PC, it is very easy to disconnect out of the system. find the wire and unplug the ends. Plug the bikes connectors back together without the PC. That gets you back to a starting point.
What Wayne mentioned: the two connectors under the tank for the low fuel light and electric petcock are the same. One set of connectors have a red band around the wire. Those go together and the others go together. It could also be the bulb in the dash.
John Henry
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Norm, just to add to what everybody is saying about the PC, it is very easy to disconnect out of the system. find the wire and unplug the ends. Plug the bikes connectors back together without the PC. That gets you back to a starting point.
John Henry
So, just having set the valves and put new plugs in, I could safely pull the Trower Demander III and cruise around and see how it runs? I won't brainwipe the ECM or anything? And if it runs like crap and I reinstall the Glower Parameter III, would it pick up right where it left off, or would it require brainrinsing again?
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No issues simply binning the power mistruster .
Dusty
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Yes.
The PC 'wedges' in between the ecu and the injectors. It doesn't alter any other devices -- it just intercepts the signal from the ecu and modifies it according to its onboard map. So you can plug it in or out and return it to whatever state it used to be in without affecting anything else.
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Well, looks like somebody needs to go for a ride today. Good thing I have pants on. All I need to do is finish a couple of loads of towels.
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Dowery Philanderer removal in process now - you guys didn't tell me I'd have to remove the battery, the ECM, and crab the frame to do it...
Okay - the unit in question has been removed, and the bike still runs. I'll top the tank and burn some miles then report.
If I don't make it back, at the service just say " he was almost weird enough ", and make a donation to the forum in my name.
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Norm, surely there is a Guzzi guy in SD that can help you... for now I'd advise to stand away from the machine until you find a new friend with the knowledge of the 15M and tuner software.
did you ever visit Mark Ethridge? I know he's not next door but he can fix you up I bet..
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Marks in Signal Hill. It's about 90 minutes depending on where you are in SD. For that matter make it another 20 min, and I'll take a look at it.
I'm no expert, but with the help of the people here and GuzziDiag and a few cables, I have my 2004 EVT humming along pretty good. Just one more noise to find and remove and it will be perfect. The only complaint is the mileage, 3.08 gallons at 120 mainly freeway miles is about 38.9mpg. Would like it to be in the low 40's like my Eldo, need to work on that.
And you think the PC is a pain. I had to learn EFI and electric ignition, much less figure out that it had the wrong ECU and map. Once all the wrongs were righted, it really runs great!! And again, thanks to all who helped me!
Tom
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When I had one of those on my old EV, I had the plugs behind the side cover. Connecting and disconnecting was very simple. Should you decide to reconnect it, you might consider routing the plugs to a better location.
John Henry
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Norm, surely there is a Guzzi guy in SD that can help you... for now I'd advise to stand away from the machine until you find a new friend with the knowledge of the 15M and tuner software.
did you ever visit Mark Ethridge? I know he's not next door but he can fix you up I bet..
Mark's a good friend and a good guy, but he thinks fuel injection and computers are the work of the devil. <shrug> He'll be not much help, honestly.
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Wayne said,
Leave the temps sensor alone until you know it is bad for a fact.
Pay attention. It can be broken by a wayward glance.
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Alright - I'm back. I was hoping that removing the Joker Tormenter III would have some effect other than leaning out the mix, but not apparently so at this writing. I'll ride it like this until I decide otherwise, but my fuel economy test changed nothing.
Full tank, north on the 15 with a bunch of people flying along, so speeds were not conservative.
Impressions...
1) It has less power. Well duh, that was expected. It still has plenty of power, it is just a little less than a scalded cat than it was.
2) It SOUNDS leaner. I know that's probably not possible, and maybe wholly subjective and placebo-like, but that's how it feels to me.
3) Another odd thing - fifth gear is more...accessible. Used to be it didn't feel right until ninety or above, now at 80 or above it seems appropriate. No idea what to make of that. Maybe see number 2).
4) The fuel economy did not change. I did 92 miles on 2.796 gallons, for an estimated 32 miles per gallon. That might be a little better than before.
So I don't think it has the right amount of feathers and claws yet.
:sad:
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No, it really needs a proper tune. Until thats done you're pissing in the wind.
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(licks one finger and holds it up, turns ninety degrees or so)
Thanks, [pete roper]. That's oddly reassuring. You might want to step back a little bit :laugh:
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My experience with power commander is that it raises and narrows the useful power band while giving better power and drinking fuel like my x tossing back gimlets at an open bar. So once you pull it out expect the bike to become more driveable, but also more tame. The part where your mileage went up only slightly when you unplugged it points to just how far out of trim the baseline is.
Give it a good service -- plugs, valves, oil, and change the air filter. Then bring it to the national in June. For dinner and a tank of gas I'll take a pass at the injection. If you don't like the base, 'economy' trim, you can always just plug back in the PCIII and it will be the same as you remember it.
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That's a very generous offer, and I'd really enjoy taking you up on it.
Unfortunately I'd need to quit my job and rob banks on the way there (Kansas?) to make that work, so I think instead I'll go to my hotmail Guzzi folder and also dig through the bookmarks on my computer at home - I know I've saved links to some threads written at the beginner level for how to do some of this stuff. I think there's also instructions on how to make a sync tool from my homebrewing clear siphon hose and a pint of my own blood.
On a vaguely related note, I heard a tale second hand about two guys on BMWs who would go to the midwest, rob a few banks, come to San Diego and live on the proceeds until cash was low, rinse and repeat. Eventually they got caught - I don't know why they thought BMWs would be subtle.
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Uh Norm , last time I checked John Day was in Oregon :laugh:
Dusty
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(wikipedia) Wow, that's a summary of a man's rough life...
This is the link in my email stash - Hmmm, it doesn't mention Bassas, and I don't have a working tach either.
http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12204
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Day ride from San Diego.
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Day ride from San Diego.
Pete and I didn't take the direct route from the city of the angles, but I remember about 1300 miles. I would think it would be a really serious day ride. :smiley:
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Yeah, about like those guys who go for the Cannonball Run record - only 13 hours at 100 mph average.
I think it's time for a new thread - I really appreciate everybody's help on this one, but I was peering under the tank and between the carbs injector thingamaboppies, and it doesn't look too complex. First thing is to scrape off the yellow paint on all those screws and make sure they're not stuck...
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Pete and I didn't take the direct route from the city of the angles, but I remember about 1300 miles. I would think it would be a really serious day ride. :smiley:
Yeah....me too.