Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thundergoose on August 23, 2016, 11:27:47 PM
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Hey all. So I finally got back to working on my Guzzi. It's been too long. I think I found why I've got no spark.
Check out the pics and give me your opinions. The reason I am unsure is that these wires seem to have been clipped by someone... Am I crazy? The wire that caught my attention is in the plug closest to the bars on the right side of the frame. The wire is yellow and was in the "C" plug. Up at the kill switch, this wire had been clipped, as you can see, but it shorted out several other wires.
I hate electronics!
(http://preview.ibb.co/intByv/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dmyddv)
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(http://preview.ibb.co/i8UUka/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/djQ25a)
(http://preview.ibb.co/hMQPJv/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mh2RWF)
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The wire has obviously been subject to some pretty serious current, I can't tell you why but one thing I do know some of the wiring in the kill switch area is completely unfused
you could easily get 100 or more in that area. It also looks as though the pin has come out of the plug.
Obviously you need to replace the yellow wire and while you are about it add a 40 Amp fuse to the Red main ignition switch feed at the battery, if anything like that happens again
the fuse will blow and protect the wiring.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_California_1100i.gif
I'm not sure if this is the reason the bike won't run though, can you go over the symptoms again to refresh us.
Does the pump run when you turn it on?
Will it crank over?
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I quit working on the bike about a year ago. I was in the middle of my MBA program and did not have the patience to do both. Just went back at it tonight and about 30 minutes in, I discovered this mess.
Anyway, the bike was running fine. One day I went out to start it and it wouldn't start. Suspected the battery may have been bad. Replaced it. Nothing... Long story short, I came on the forum here, and you actually sent me the wiring diagram. I went through and cleaned and greased all kinds of connections. No matter what I did, I could not get spark. The fuel pump is working and spins up when the key is turned, just no spark. Replaced the relays with the ones sold here by one of the forum members, if I'm not mistaken.
Anyway, the battery is on the trickle charger right now. I figure, after finding those fried wires, my search should be over. I must have gone over every other wire in this bike. I chalk missing those crispy critters up to high levels of stress and frustration from my school work. I'm assuming that those wires should connect to something in the Kill switch?
Will make sure to fuse the red wire before I get this all back together.
**Edit
Just went out to take a look. The wires that are all clumped together at the switch are Red, Red/Yellow, Yellow, Red Black. These are the wires that are isolated with the blue connectors on them. According to the shcematics, these are my hazards and blinkers, if I'm reading it all right. Shouldn't have a thing to do with my starting issue now should it?
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And the battery is of course disconnected from the bike until the problem is found, right?
The thing right now is to find out why that wire melted. The completely burned copper suggests a LOT of current over a lot of time. That sort of current often comes from an unfused, dead short that continues until either the battery or the wire gives up.
The wires you name run every darn thing -- power to brake switch, headlight, power to the blinkers, and more -- run the wiring diagram and you see there are lots of places for the physical short to occur. You need to find which wire (probably along the headlight run) got abraded, pinched, broken to ground, is binding when you turn, etc. It could be hidden in a loom or there could be a good clue -- like a corresponding burn mark on the handlebar where the blue connector touched -- something like that. It may be in a place where it's close to a coil circuit wire and burned thrugh it, too. It's an odd detective story, and there are way to many suspects to point you any closer than that, imo. The rest will be hands-on with you, an ohm meter and NO BATTERY INSTALLED UNTIL THE SHORT IS FOUND.
$0.02
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I've got a sneaking suspicion...
PO installed a trailer hitch and wired into the rear lights, if I'm not mistaken. I bet this shorted out out back! Will check tomorrow after work. Battery is out of bike as it charges!
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That could make sense, the yellow wire seems to be lights, but it should have blown the fuse, the PO may have got it mixed up with the unfused red wire somehow.
As to the ignition, study the diagram top right, that's the ECU really off on it's own. You can ignore the two wires at the top of page (tach and fault light), all you have is a signal from relay 41 and 12 Volts from the battery.
Do you get anything shown on the fault light at the dash.
Do you have a copy of the Efiman pdf, it's a very good description of these fuel injection systems. I usually find it by doing a Google search for "Efiman document"
When you turn the key on the fuel pump runs and the ignition gets power but it turns off again after a few seconds.
When you start to crank pulses from the revolution sensors tell the ECU to put the power back on the coils, perhaps one of the sensors isn't working. Pull each one out and make sure it's not covered in iron filings.
Measure the resistance from the ECU connector, both sensors should measure the same Ohms
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Sensors measure 680ohms each.
Here's the link to the article. http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf
For those who would rather search, search EFIMAN DOCUMENT PDF. Thanks for posting that, Roy.
It's a good overview and has some details I've been searching for for a long time. Good stuff!
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Ditch the hitch and disconnect/reconnect the wiring to where it was before being a trailer hauler.
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the rear sub-harness can be unplugged up near the battery left side under seat.
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Stripped the cover off the wires going to the switch. Lots of carnage. Have new switch on the way. Trailer plug has been deleted. Will see if we can get it running when the new RH Kill Switch arrives.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/keJiBF/IMG_4873.jpg) (http://ibb.co/keJiBF)
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/iPSzka/IMG_4876.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iPSzka)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eR1QQa/IMG_4877.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eR1QQa)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/ghSbWF/IMG_4878.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ghSbWF)
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You could as a test. Separate and insulate the burnt wire. Turn it on and see if that works. If it does then you know that would be the wire that needs repairing. Somehow I think that you're not going to get off that easy. You connector in the gang wire collector may be messed up too.
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You could as a test. Separate and insulate the burnt wire. Turn it on and see if that works. If it does then you know that would be the wire that needs repairing. Somehow I think that you're not going to get off that easy. You connector in the gang wire collector may be messed up too.
If you look really close, you'll see that some of the other wire got caught up in the mess. I'll separate everything this evening and see if it's salvageable to at least see if I can get the bike running...
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Good luck and best wishes on the repair. I need to do some more on mine. :embarrassed: It started out with the ignition switch failing internally. By-passed that and put in a new switch. Sorted out some other problems with the main gang collector plug. Turns out that some of the connectors failed inside the plug. You couldn't see it but when test with a multi-meter, it showed no continuity. I hate this stuff.
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Alright, went through each wire in the kill switch, isolated the wire, wrapped in in electrical tape, plugged it in, and....
NOTHING.
Guess I'll just wait for MotoInternational to ship my new kill switch. Any possible way this should keep my fuel pump from spinning up? I get nothing when I turn the ignition key. Kick stand is up, bike's in neutral, switch is in "RUN" position....
Figured that I could at least get some diagnostics going until my new switch arrives, but nothing even attempts to light up...
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Check and see if you have juice going into the switch and out when switched on. Check your kill switch to see if it is turning on/off. If you still have the Siemens grey relays, replace.
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Wierd thing happened. Took my test light out to check for juice in the key.
Terminal 30 has juice key on/off.
Terminal 16 has juice key off. No juice Key on.
15/54 No juice key on/off
Terminal 50 no juice key on/off
Bare with me, I am not electronic friendly.
Can I assume that my switch is bad?
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Kind of sounds like it. When you turn the key to on. You should have power at another terminal. If it's the same as the key is off. Sounds like another switch is needed. You could use a universal ignition switch. The stock switch can be a rear bear to get out. There are 2 mounting bolts that had snap off heads. Could be a problem to remove and put a switch in the same area. If someone has a better way. Jump in or correct me.
Run a short jumper from the hot/positive to the ignition switch to another lead and see if it powers up something.
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Kind of sounds like it. When you turn the key to on. You should have power at another terminal. If it's the same as the key is off. Sounds like another switch is needed. You could use a universal ignition switch. The stock switch can be a rear bear to get out. There are 2 mounting bolts that had snap off heads. Could be a problem to remove and put a switch in the same area. If someone has a better way. Jump in or correct me.
Run a short jumper from the hot/positive to the ignition switch to another lead and see if it powers up something.
While I was using my test light I hit the white wire while testing the green wire and the fuel pump spun up. Kept the connection hot and hit the start button and got a relay click. Should all 4 poles be hot with switch on?
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The stock switch can be a rear bear to get out. There are 2 mounting bolts that had snap off heads.
or a real kitten.. if you take the triple clamp off you can get a vice grips on them or cut a slot for a screw driver w/a dremmel tool.. that's how I did it.. they were not very tight tho..
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Did you find any other logical place for the short to be? If not, that could be where the wire damage happened.
But as near as I can tell, yes, all should be hot with the key.
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Sounds like it. One lead should be for lights. The rest, someone else would have to jump in. Last one I replaced was on my Strada '93. You can use a universal ignition switch from Carquest.
One hot lead comes into the switch. The rest should be juice going out. Lignts, fuel pump, turn signals, ignition and kill switch. Anyone can correct. The contacts in the switch can fail with too much juice heating up. Haven't pull one a part. I was able to revive a switch on my '80 Convert and '76 T3. I haven't pull a Cali one apart or the Strada. Might not be able to fix. Plastic bodies. The older ones are metal and you can pry the prongs off. Disassemble and clean the contacts.
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Sounds like it. One lead should be for lights. The rest, someone else would have to jump in. Last one I replaced was on my Strada '93. You can use a universal ignition switch from Carquest.
One hot lead comes into the switch. The rest should be juice going out. Lignts, fuel pump, turn signals, ignition and kill switch. Anyone can correct. The contacts in the switch can fail with too much juice heating up. Haven't pull one a part. I was able to revive a switch on my '80 Convert and '76 T3. I haven't pull a Cali one apart or the Strada. Might not be able to fix. Plastic bodies. The older ones are metal and you can pry the prongs off. Disassemble and clean the contacts.
VICTORY!
Well, kind of... The guys who re-keyed the switch did put it together wrong! Took it apart, spun it, snapped it back together, and the ignition switch is working again!
Still no spark, pump whirls up, tach jumps (an old Guzzi guy told me that if the tach jumps while cranking, right coil is getting power???). Bike turns over no problem. Just no spark!!! Pulled left plug, held it up to block... Nothing, not even a weak spark.
Back to Kiwi's advice to test the relays...
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You have no spark but does the pump start again while cranking
It should run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key on then stop
When you start to crank it should start again.
If the tacho is jumping you must be getting a spark, it comes from the coil.
look again in a dark garage.
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Well... It ran... Once.
Can't get it to go again. Pulled the left crank case sensors. Replaced them. They seemed to be clean? I wiped them off and put them back. Cleaned both plugs with brake/parts cleaner (they were kind of black, pulled the coil side of the plug wire on the left side and reinserted it, then gave it a go. Didn't want to start, but I heard it fire a couple of times, so I kept at it. And it started right up and ran for at least a minute. Moved all of the stuff in the garage that had begun to pile up around it over the past year so I could roll it out and give it a street test, and now it doesn't want to fire again.
Will see if I can source some plug wires locally tomorrow. Pick up some new plugs, and give it another go. I have lights, fuel pump... Everything's there, just no spark. All fuses are good, contacts corned and greased. Same goes for pyro's relays.
Here's a crappy video of it running tonight.
https://youtu.be/TWcBrxBwXvY
I'm done for the evening, or my neighbors are going to hate me. Will come at it again tomorrow. So close....
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You have no spark but does the pump start again while cranking
It should run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key on then stop
When you start to crank it should start again.
Yes, the pump turns back on again when cranking. Although, is it possible that it could be turning on sporadically, because I don't recall it running after every time I cranked the engine...
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New plugs may do the trick. If you still have trouble see if you can hang a small lamp across the pump, that will indicate you are getting pulses from the engine sensors.
Good Luck
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Squirt a shot of starting fluid in the intakes and see if it runs. If it does, it's a fuel problem.
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New plugs may do the trick. If you still have trouble see if you can hang a small lamp across the pump, that will indicate you are getting pulses from the engine sensors.
Good Luck
Kiwi, are you referring to a test lamp? I'll replace the plugs tomorrow and see if I can get the old girl to go again.
Thanks for the tip Tom. I'll pick up a can of starting fluid as well. We'll see if we can get to the bottom of this!
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***UPDATE***
On my way out the door to work this morning I choked the bike and it cranked right up. It was on the Battery Tender all night. Something tells me that the issue may be battery related! Will see if it cranks up after work.
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Get a load test on the battery
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:1: on the load test. Batteries are cheap for that bike. That is unless you want a LiPo battery or Odyssey.
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Bike wouldn't start tonight after being on battery tender all day. Fuel pump is spinning while engine cranks. A few shots of starting fluid didn't do the trick. Oreilly will have my plugs tomorrow, had to order them in. Only thing I didn't do because it got too late was attempt to jump the bike with cables to non running vehicle. Weird thing is it fired right up in the am. I was sure it would run this evening, but no go...
Question, does the crank case sensor on left side come with a bulge in it? It is a super tight fit and had to wiggle it in and out. I noticed that it was bulged in the middle of the plug, wider than at the ends... Not sure if I should be suspicious of sensors at this point. Maybe I'll take the battery to work with me tomorrow so I can have it load tested on lunch break. Although this problem is the same issue I had 2 years ago and brand new battery did not resolve the issue then...
Does this sensor look compromised? or should it bulge in the middle?
(http://preview.ibb.co/bATmyv/IMG_4885.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gSpFrF)
(http://preview.ibb.co/b3W6yv/IMG_4886.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iW3x5a)
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Had battery load tested. Battery is fine. Replaces plugs. Still no start. Fuel pump is working when key is turned and while cranking. Previous post makes me wonder if this is the RPM/crank sensor causing this problem.
My ignition key only has on and off position. To pull up the Guzzi Diag I just plug in the jumper, turn key and bump starter?
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Had battery load tested. Battery is fine. Replaces plugs. Still no start. Fuel pump is working when key is turned and while cranking. Previous post makes me wonder if this is the RPM/crank sensor causing this problem.
My ignition key only has on and off position. To pull up the Guzzi Diag I just plug in the jumper, turn key and bump starter?
I don't know what that means.
Is there 12v at the 15 post of the coils?
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Sorry, I was referring to the procedure to check error codes. Here's what it flashed.
https://vimeo.com/109563128
If I'm not mistaken, that error code is 1.2.???
Phase signal (TDC) failure
The trouble can be in the sensor itself (circuit opened), in the wiring or in the connector (circuit opened). It can also be caused by an excessive air gap. When this fault is intermittently occurs during running the code 1.2 is present together with the code 1.3.
Or did I read the code wrong?
Will check coils tomorrow. Too late to be cranking on the starter now. Pretty sure neighbors hate me.
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yes that is a 1.2 code.. do you have reference for what 1.2 means?
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Sorry, I was referring to the procedure to check error codes. Here's what it flashed.
https://vimeo.com/109563128
If I'm not mistaken, that error code is 1.2.???
Phase signal (TDC) failure
The trouble can be in the sensor itself (circuit opened), in the wiring or in the connector (circuit opened). It can also be caused by an excessive air gap. When this fault is intermittently occurs during running the code 1.2 is present together with the code 1.3.
Or did I read the code wrong?
Will check coils tomorrow. Too late to be cranking on the starter now. Pretty sure neighbors hate me.
Easy enough to use and ohmmeter on the sensor to verify it.
And that vintage California will pop the starter magnets if you crank it too much.
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Any local (US) source for the Alternative parts used in Fiat/Lada...
Fiat p/n PDTS0032, 60810103, 64820168010, SEN8I3, SEB163, 7733001
I've been looking online and cannot seem to find a US source for these significantly cheaper sensors. If nothing else I'll order a few from the UK and go ahead and buy from the local Guzzi dealer (Ride Now) to get my bike up and running.
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Doesn't hurt to pull the sensor and clean it off.
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So, just got off the phone with the only local dealer (Ride Now Motorsports) and they claim this sensor has been discontinued by Moto Guzzi, so they couldn't even order it in. Is that even possible???
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Harpers might have them.. MGcycle says sold out.. YIKES retail is $201.15
I'll look for one in my stash when I get home.
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Yikes! Remove and clean.
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I've removed and cleaned it twice. Waiting on replacement part now...
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Didn't know. Okay. Just for grins and giggles. Disconnect the lead to the sensor. Try and fire the bike with throttle open just a little.
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Didn't know. Okay. Just for grins and giggles. Disconnect the lead to the sensor. Try and fire the bike with throttle open just a little.
Tried your suggestion, nothing. Engine turns over, fuel pump runs, bike does not even attempt to start. Figured it was worth a shot. Looks like I got the last sensor from MG Cycle. Should arrive tomorrow/Friday.
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You should be Sainted for your patience!
I would have sold mine for a nickel by now!!
Keep up the good work! We're rooting for ya!!
Tom
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Let us know.
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Have you measured them yet with an ohmmeter?
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Have you measured them yet with an ohmmeter?
Not going to be necessary! She's running!!!!!!
Thanks to all who helped in this thread. MG cycle came through big time with the SEN-813 sensor and got it out to me overnight on an order that was placed in the afternoon! Replaced the Phase sensor, filled the tank, and she fired right up! Now I'm just waiting on the new kill switch from Moto International, and I'll start riding to work again. Nothing like a well running Guzzi!
Thanks again to all of you for being patient with me as I fumbled through the diagnosis. Hopefully others will be able to wade through all my garbage posts in the future to help diagnose their own similar issues!
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:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Next, you'll have to report how it runs/rides.
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:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Next, you'll have to report how it runs/rides.
Tom, so far we're running great. It's running a bit rich, but this bike always has. I'm also having some idle issues, so I'm going to have to adjust idle. Need to figure out why my Neutral light is constantly lit. I suspect that it may just be unplugged, but have also read that a faulty kill switch will cause the light to stay lit...
Will be heading home early today and asking permission to disappear for a couple hours.
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Tom, so far we're running great. It's running a bit rich,
on the side of the p8 box is a dial that adjusts trim (rich/lean) idle control.. turn only 1/4 at a time and ride for several minutes to see what it does. It will take the computer awhile to adjust to the setting you just changed.. the dial has a limit and you don't want to crank past that or the it does not work anymore.
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Make sure your air filter isn't plugged and your sparkplugs are the right heat range.
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Congrats on the beast running. And this thread will help others with the same problem!!
Good luck!
Tom