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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bonaventure on July 22, 2017, 09:43:19 AM
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What is it within the 1200 8V motor that calls for the kind of high High Temp High Shear (HTHS) film strength that a synthetic 10W60 is packin'?
Is that thick of a spec simply a hold-over from the flat tappet valve train days? Are the main bearing loads that high that a very high HTHS lubricant is called for? Or is it due to loose machining tolerances that may be a necessary element of the engine design?
My journey to understand Guzzi's continues . . . :cool:
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Somebody's poking the bear!!!!! :popcorn:
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Pete Roper can share some photos of why I said never use dino oil in an 8 valve. The oil flows through passages in the heads to cool the really hot stuff. Dino will coke up and then before long the whole engine is destroyed by the chunks of carbon now circulating.
Oil is specified for a reason. Just use it.
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Good info. When it comes to synthetics, I'm all about using a "true" synthetic that uses either PolyAlphaOlefin (POA) or Ester as the base stock. Is the AGIP 10W60 a true blue synthetic using either PAO or Ester?
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if I tell ya I'm gonna have to kill ya. :copcar:
You may wanta ask the nice folks in Mandello, only they know for sure...... maybe not???? :violent1:
Paul
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Good info. When it comes to synthetics, I'm all about using a "true" synthetic that uses either PolyAlphaOlefin (POA) or Ester as the base stock. Is the AGIP 10W60 a true blue synthetic using either PAO or Ester?
The manual says: "SAE 10W - 60. As an alternative to the recommended oils, you can also use brand name oils with performance that meets or exceeds the CCMC G-4 A.P.I. SG standards."
Is there a religious or personal reason why your oil would have to made with PAO or Ester? :wink: I think all that's included in the spec .....
Lannis
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Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
I'm not sure 10w60 comes in dino. I've never seen it.
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10/60 is specified to allow trolls to annoy people by asking stupid questions on Internet bb's.
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10/60 is specified to allow trolls to annoy people by asking stupid questions on Internet bb's.
What is the term "Dino" mean ?
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non-synthetic oil.
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What is the term "Dino" mean ?
Dinosaur
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The only place I could find 10W-60 oil in LA years ago was at a BMW car dealer. Aren't they water-cooled?
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What is it within the 1200 8V motor that calls for the kind of high High Temp High Shear (HTHS) film strength that a synthetic 10W60 is packin'?
Is that thick of a spec simply a hold-over from the flat tappet valve train days? Are the main bearing loads that high that a very high HTHS lubricant is called for? Or is it due to loose machining tolerances that may be a necessary element of the engine design?
My journey to understand Guzzi's continues . . . :cool:
Bonaventure, welcome to this Guzzi forum!
I don't think you are a troll and your question is not a stupid one.
That and other questions about oil have been asked many times and the answers are legion -if not conclusive.
Type 10W60 in the search box and you'll turn up many lonnnng threads regarding this.
The 10W60 spec is a very broad one that provides a broad range of protection for a broad range of operating environments.
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The only place I could find 10W-60 oil in LA years ago was at a BMW car dealer. Aren't they water-cooled?
"Wait.....what...... BMW makes cars?" :evil: :evil:
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What is it within the 1200 8V motor that calls for the kind of high High Temp High Shear (HTHS) film strength that a synthetic 10W60 is packin'?
Is that thick of a spec simply a hold-over from the flat tappet valve train days? Are the main bearing loads that high that a very high HTHS lubricant is called for? Or is it due to loose machining tolerances that may be a necessary element of the engine design?
My journey to understand Guzzi's continues . . . :cool:
It's a fairly safe bet that the spec is to cover temperatures the oil will encounter through any season or any climate in any country.
IF you wanted to dawn your white lab coat, take some temperature readings, consult some vis charts it's likely you COULD get away with running something other than the factory spec'd lube, like a conventional 10W40 in certain climates or seasons.
It seems the Guzzi engineers have opted to spec the 10W60 & let the oil temps soar in the summer though. Maybe they felt this would help offset condensation issues that can occur in cooler climates / seasons or during short hops. Though, I would think the condensation issues could have been mitigated with an oil thermostat, I believe some have looked into this & even retrofitted their oil cooling system with one.
It really seems that if the engineers controlled the oil temperature within a narrower range the 10W60 spec wouldn't have been necessary but then that would add mfg cost & weight.
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My 1200 Breva engine has a thermostatically operated oil cooler. It still runs 10w60.
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it's likely you COULD get away with running something other than the factory spec'd lube, like a conventional 10W40 in certain climates or seasons.
It really seems that if the engineers controlled the oil temperature within a narrower range the 10W60 spec wouldn't have been necessary but then that would add mfg cost & weight.
No, you can't run 10w40. Conventional oil will cause engine failure. This is well documented here and elsewhere.
And no, the engineers are not dodging the issue. The oil IS the coolant.
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No, you can't run 10w40. Conventional oil will cause engine failure. This is well documented here and elsewhere.
And no, the engineers are not dodging the issue. The oil IS the coolant.
Yes, you can run 10W40 under appropriate ambient conditions. The engine won't know the difference. Do you realize that a 10W40 under those appropriate ambient conditions has a higher vis than a 10W60 in typical summer conditions?
The question is can you as an owner be trusted to monitor temps and or pressures & swap out the oil to a higher vis as necessary? Guzzi says no you can't be. I don't blame them for that.
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Dusty, please kill this thread immediately.
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/18/91/78/64/image13.gif)
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Thanks all for the answers. So is there a synthetic 10W60 that is a little less money than the AGIP product? What do you guys think of the Liqui Moly 10W60 motorcycle oil made in Germany? Seems to be a bit less cash than AGIP and in Germany if it's labeled synthetic then it has to be made from PAO or Ester ... I think.
I believe NAPA auto parts stores here in USA carry the Liqui Moly 10W60 4T synthetic motorcycle oil.
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Dusty, please kill this thread immediately.
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/18/91/78/64/image13.gif)
Why the drama? It's just a discussion.
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Let this thread run as some of the questions I have had about the oil I need to use inmy Calvin may be answered, like why would Mobil heavy duty 15-50 synthetic not be ok in my 2007 Calvin?
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Just checked eBay and looks like the genuine ENI AGIP 10W60 synthetic is actually less $$ than all competing 10W60's except Motul 7100 which is only a few dollars less for a 4 liter pack. :cool:
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Let this thread run as some of the questions I have had about the oil I need to use inmy Calvin may be answered, like why would Mobil heavy duty 15-50 synthetic not be ok in my 2007 Calvin?
How would anyone know that? No one has done a long term controlled study on the difference in engine wear between 15W-50 and the specified 10W-60 in your bike.
SOMEONE can always post up and say "I use re-refined chain saw oil in my Cal 1400 and it runs great", but that doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Lannis
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Guys, use a little common sense. 10W-60 oil is to cover the mfg. warranty no matter what ambient temp. you run your MC motor at. It's that simple. This BS that it has to be 10W because some of the passages are so little is comical. Does that mean @ 105F when you start your MC the oil is going to be @ 10W no matter the ambient. No it's not. It automatically adjusts thickness according to the temp it's in. At 105F it might be 40W, but you can't tell. Otherwise why do they say it can change viscosity as needed? Does that say some passages are so small the oil won't get thru at such a higher viscosity. No, but you've been conditioned to think so. Depending what the ambient temps might be where you ride is what matters. 10W-60 is a catch all oil.
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How would anyone know that? No one has done a long term controlled study on the difference in engine wear between 15W-50 and the specified 10W-60 in your bike.
SOMEONE can always post up and say "I use re-refined chain saw oil in my Cal 1400 and it runs great", but that doesn't really mean anything, does it?
Lannis
it's known as experience Lannis, you know that thing old guys accumulate when they try several different ways or methods of doing things over the years. Scientific study's are not always your best form of information but thanks for the response as it helped a lot;)
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Yes, you can run 10W40 under appropriate ambient conditions. The engine won't know the difference. Do you realize that a 10W40 under those appropriate ambient conditions has a higher vis than a 10W60 in typical summer conditions?
The question is can you as an owner be trusted to monitor temps and or pressures & swap out the oil to a higher vis as necessary? Guzzi says no you can't be. I don't blame them for that.
Ok, I'm always willing to learn.
I've done some reading over the years on oils, and on differences between synthetics and conventional oils and how they do it don't break-down.
With regards to viscosity though I still can't seem to get it straight. Maybe I need to go back to Bobstheoilguy and read some stickies again.
I suspect the majority of the public is like me and doesn't understand viscosities correctly either.
The oversimplification we're told is that the first # (W) represents how well it will flow cold, and the second number is how well it protects hot.
Is that too simplified? Is there a better way to understand it?
And if that's remotely accurate, how would a 10-40 ever protect better than a 10-60?
They both flow the same a lower temps, and the 40 is never "thicker" at higher temps right?
I think there's a reason we are starting to see fewer of those ambient temperature oil charts being included in OEM materials, especially if they spec synthetic oil in the first place.
But I'm willing to learn.
Thoughts?
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Guys, use a little common sense. 10W-60 oil is to cover the mfg. warranty no matter what ambient temp. you run your MC motor at. It's that simple. This BS that it has to be 10W because some of the passages are so little is comical. Does that mean @ 105F when you start your MC the oil is going to be @ 10W no matter the ambient. No it's not. It automatically adjusts thickness according to the temp it's in. At 105F it might be 40W, but you can't tell. Otherwise why do they say it can change viscosity as needed? Does that say some passages are so small the oil won't get thru at such a higher viscosity. No, but you've been conditioned to think so. Depending what the ambient temps might be where you ride is what matters. 10W-60 is a catch all oil.
Wayne, best response I've read thus far reguards to the post. As always oil questions automatically spark off controversy at best and heated arguments at worst. Some of the guys don't take in consideration that in some parts of the country the required 10-60 racing brands are hard to find and must be ordered at a heafty price and yes I'd pay it if necessary. However anyone in their right mind don't want to piss away hard bucks if not necessary. Lol, I don't want to irritate none of these old Guzzi guys with dumb questions as I may need them to help me with things I already know sometime:(
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it's known as experience Lannis, you know that thing old guys accumulate when they try several different ways or methods of doing things over the years. Scientific study's are not always your best form of information but thanks for the response as it helped a lot;)
Yes, I've heard a lot of that "Old Guy Experience" over the years, so much of it have I heard that I've become an Old Guy myself.
I have had Old Guys tell me with dead seriousness:
1) "Watch out for that front brake, it'll throw you over the handlebars! Just use it to hold the bike at a stop."
2) "Got to have a heavy bike, they hold the road better. Old Harley will ALWAYS handle better than them light Jap things, 'cause their weight helps them hold the road."
3) "Motor Guzzy, huh? Yep, they use tractor engines in those, that engine came straight out of a tractor."
4) "Car in front of me slowed down too fast, so I had to Lay 'Er Down. Yeah boy, saved my ass, had to Lay 'Er Down."
And on and on. So I guess I take the Voice of Experience with a grain of salt, since all the young talk-and-trousers brigade eventually grow up and become the seen-it-all-done-it-all B.S. brigade!
Especially about a highly technical subject like metallurgy and lubrication thereof .... :thumb:
Lannis
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Yes, I've heard a lot of that "Old Guy Experience" over the years, so much of it have I heard that I've become an Old Guy myself.
I have had Old Guys tell me with dead seriousness:
1) "Watch out for that front brake, it'll throw you over the handlebars! Just use it to hold the bike at a stop."
2) "Got to have a heavy bike, they hold the road better. Old Harley will ALWAYS handle better than them light Jap things, 'cause their weight helps them hold the road."
3) "Motor Guzzy, huh? Yep, they use tractor engines in those, that engine came straight out of a tractor."
4) "Car in front of me slowed down too fast, so I had to Lay 'Er Down. Yeah boy, saved my ass, had to Lay 'Er Down."
And on and on. So I guess I take the Voice of Experience with a grain of salt, since all the young talk-and-trousers brigade eventually grow up and become the seen-it-all-done-it-all B.S. brigade!
Especially about a highly technical subject like metallurgy and lubrication thereof .... :thumb:
Lannis
I understand and spoken like a true gentleman. Hats off to you Sir:)
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Ok, I'm always willing to learn.
I've done some reading over the years on oils, and on differences between synthetics and conventional oils and how they do it don't break-down.
With regards to viscosity though I still can't seem to get it straight. Maybe I need to go back to Bobstheoilguy and read some stickies again.
I suspect the majority of the public is like me and doesn't understand viscosities correctly either.
The oversimplification we're told is that the first # (W) represents how well it will flow cold, and the second number is how well it protects hot.
Is that too simplified? Is there a better way to understand it?
And if that's remotely accurate, how would a 10-40 ever protect better than a 10-60?
They both flow the same a lower temps, and the 40 is never "thicker" at higher temps right?
I think there's a reason we are starting to see fewer of those ambient temperature oil charts being included in OEM materials, especially if they spec synthetic oil in the first place.
But I'm willing to learn.
Thoughts?
First number is vis @ 0 degrees C, second number is vis @ 100 degrees C. For us 'mericans used to F - think H2O freezing & boiling points (at standard atmospheric pressure).
At EQUAL temperature above 0C, 10W40 is going to be thinner than an 10W60 - no confusion there.
BUT
In an air cooled motor absent thermostats (or even with an oil thermostat) where the ambient temperature largely dictates the temperature of the oil a 10W40 in a mild climate can be THICKER (higher vis) than a 10W60 operated in a hot climate. Why? Because the oil doesn't get nearly as hot. It's temperature that dictates how thin or thick an oil is at any time as well as its inherent viscosity properties (rating).
Using a 0W20 in an engine that specifies 20W50 WOULD be the better choice if you're operating it in a low ambient temperature AND the oil temperature never rises above its corresponding viscosity that is equal to the RECOMMENDED grades viscosity you'd normally see on a warm/hot day.
Generally, you can go lower on the "W" number no problem, no matter what the expected operating temps are. So, if you have an old motor that 20W50 was spec'd for you can use 10W50 or 0W50 no problem without looking at oil temps.
Mineral vs synthetic aside, if someone wanted to use a 0W40 10W40 or 10W50 in the winter in lieu of a 10W60 it's a fairly safe bet. If the oil temperature doesn't get nearly as hot as summer then the temperature difference can dwarf the rated grade difference. Knowing your operating oil temps that you typically see during summer & winter AND verifying using a vis chart that whatever lube you propose to run won't thin beyond your factory recommended grade (in this case 10W60) during summer temps, would add some certainty.
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First number is vis @ 0 degrees C, second number is vis @ 100 degrees C. For us 'mericans used to F - think H2O freezing & boiling points (at standard atmospheric pressure).
At EQUAL temperature above 0C, 10W40 is going to be thinner than an 10W60 - no confusion there.
BUT
In an air cooled motor absent thermostats (or even with an oil thermostat) where the ambient temperature largely dictates the temperature of the oil a 10W40 in a mild climate can be THICKER (higher vis) than a 10W60 operated in a hot climate. Why? Because the oil doesn't get nearly as hot. It's temperature that dictates how thin or thick an oil is at any time as well as its inherent viscosity properties (rating).
Using a 0W20 in an engine that specifies 20W50 WOULD be the better choice if you're operating it in a low ambient temperature AND the oil temperature never rises above its corresponding viscosity that is equal to the RECOMMENDED viscosity you'd normally see on a warm/hot day.
Generally, you can go lower on the "W" number no problem, no matter what the expected operating temps are. So, if you have an old motor that 20W50 was spec'd for you can use 10W50 or 0W50 no problem without looking at oil temps.
Mineral vs synthetic aside, if someone wanted to use a 0W40 10W40 or 10W50 in the winter in lieu of a 10W60 it's a fairly safe bet. If the oil temperature doesn't get nearly as hot as summer then the temperature difference can dwarf the rated grade difference. Knowing your operating oil temps that you typically see during summer & winter AND verifying using a vis chart that whatever lube you propose to run won't thin beyond your factory recommended grade (in this case 10W60) during summer temps, would add some certainty.
Ah thanks for the reply. I read your original response too quickly and missed the key point that you were comparing the 40 and 60 at different temps (60 at summer, 40 in milder temps).
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I wonder how hot the oil gets when it is cooling the exhaust valve area and if this is the reason Guzzi specifies the "60". The oil in a subject Guzzi both lubricates the moving bits and cools a very hot part of the motor (ergo the dual oil pumps). Could it be that in the oil cooling passages of the exhaust valve area the temps get way hotter, even in moderate ambient air temps, than the rest of the oil while run in hot summer time temps?
I always used the 10W60 when specified. You can "pay your money and take your chances", but I have enough to worry about in my life without adding to it to save a couple of buck.
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I wonder how hot the oil gets when it is cooling the exhaust valve area and if this is the reason Guzzi specifies the "60". The oil in a subject Guzzi both lubricates the moving bits and cools a very hot part of the motor (ergo the dual oil pumps). Could it be that in the oil cooling passages of the exhaust valve area the temps get way hotter, even in moderate ambient air temps, than the rest of the oil while run in hot summer time temps?
I think that's exactly the point. The 10-60 is specified for the 8v not because of ambient temperatures but because of the cooling requirement for some *very* hot parts.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Use the weights and specs the factory calls for .
Dusty
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If you assemble all the reasons given -- keeping plaque off the passages, mayo abatement, bringing oil pressure up faster on startup and keeping idle pressure up better when hot, the hotter running of lean-burn engines, shearing, etc, the 10w60 makes sense in the engines that are spec'd for it. I've never heard anyone argue that they've made the passages tinier in modern engines and the thinner oil is needed because a thicker one won't flow, though. In fact, in the case of the hydro, the opposite is true -- there are more and larger designed oil leaks in a hydro and the thicker oil is needed to keep pressure up when hot. My 1200 Breva engine, as I said in a previous post, has a thermostats and oil cooler. Even with that it runs significantly hotter than my 1100s. With 20/50 running pressure at temp is ~35#, and idle is in single digits. With the 10/60 I run at 50+#, and typically idle at 15-20#.
Other than the cost argument I've seen nothing that suggests an engine speced for 10w60 is better off with anything else. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to cheap out on motor oil.
If you're serious about the performance differences in oils, you really need to get pressure and temp gauges on the engine. The instruments tell the story. In any case, I would not listen to folks who are recommending something out of specs "because they haven't blown up the engine yet" unless they've got solid science to back up their claims AND they are willing to stand behind their recommendations with the $$$$ to fix any damage their claims cause your engine.
$0.02
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Use the weights and specs the factory calls for , we are getting some posts from people who "think" they know more than the engineers , who are you going to believe ?
Dusty
One could do a decent master's thesis on the whys and wherefores of Oil Threads. Why do they start? What drives the need? Why do people get into a fease and fervor about it?
In outlining such a thesis, I'll note the following.
1) They usually start, or have included somewhere close by, the thing of "The oil recommended for my bike isn't available at the closest Pep Boys to my house, so I have to find another kind. What does the board recommend?" Someone with a Moto Guzzi is disturbed because supplies and parts aren't available 3 miles from the house 18 hours a day? Really?
2) Also included is generally "The oil recommended for my bike is really expensive, so I have to find another kind." This IS a Guzzi thing and is very much consistent with most of the other issues we talk about, like prices of used bikes, so I understand that.
3) The biggest thing, though, is a human nature thing. People want to be part of an "IN" group that knows things that other people don't know, and want to be seen as not just following the common herd by doing what the manual says. That might be part of what drove us toward Guzzis in the first place. So it's like "So you're still using AGIP 10w60? HAW haw haw, how 20th century of you! You haven't heard of Empire Violet 1w200? Really, you're that far behind? I been using it for YEARS, buy it at Dollar Tree for $1.00 a gallon." (A nod and a wink and a finger beside the nose at this point). "Yeah, I know what they say, but I don't trust those 'Experts', they're just trying to sell oil ....."
I don't insist on it, but it sure sounds like human nature to me ..... ! :cool: :boxing:
Lannis
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Seriously , you ever run for president , you have my vote :thumb:
"....and a beezer in every garage !!" Hell yeah :bow:
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In the previous page 10w60 was mentioned in reference to BMW cars.
The Penrite that I run actually has TWO 10w60 oils, one for cars and one for bikes. I have no idea what the difference is as they both have "full zinc loading" and both are synthetic. However, I guess that there is a difference somewhere as they specify that the car oil is not designed to be used in motorcycles. It may be that the car one is friction modified and it is a blanket cover to stop problems with wet clutches. Dunno.
The B750 I know runs hot hot hot. I am pretty sure that the pistons are oil cooled; with the Heron head it would make sense. These are high heats being generated even with moderate temperatures in the atmosphere being present.. Wayne is correct, 10w60 is indeed a catch-all oil weight, and with synthetics not breaking down as easily as Dino it just makes sense to me to use what is specified (if you can get it), whatever the cost.
The Breva ran fine on a motorbike specific 10w50 when I could not source the 10w60 with no apparent ill effects, however, now that the specified one is available that is what I will use.
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High quality 10W60 is available to anybody who has access to the internet, and at very reasonable prices.
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High quality 10W60 is available to anybody who has access to the internet, and at very reasonable prices.
I've mentioned that before, and had Canadian guys say "No, not up here it isn't." Apparently they can't get a lot of stuff on line that we can.
I haven't lived there, but that's what they say.
Lannis
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Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff??
https://fortnine.ca/en/motul-7100-ester-4t-synthetic-oil (https://fortnine.ca/en/motul-7100-ester-4t-synthetic-oil)
Looks Canadian to me
Paul B :boozing:
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Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff??
Actually I come up with it from responses made to my questions on this VERY list, wherein I say "I can get 10W60 sent to me by the case anywhere on the planet, why don't people just order it ahead of time, it's cheap and convenient ...
.... and more than one Canadian guy says "We CANNOT get it here", end of message.
Being a trusting fellow, I take their word for it, rather than searching for a source which may or may not be available to them. So maybe they're just not looking very hard because that $1.00 a gallon oil is SO very tempting ....
Here's one such past thread. After that, I quit asking ...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84661.0
Lannis
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10w60 available but not AGIP out here. Expensive to ship. Better to buy compatible oil.
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So,
Who's sending their oil to Blackstone every change for analysis?
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So,
Who's sending their oil to Blackstone every change for analysis?
Whoever it is, I'll bet they learned it either in the airplane or the trucking business ....
Lannis
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http://www.opieoils.co.uk/t-car-engine-oil-10w-60-explained.aspx
and, for even more...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/9/1/Motorcycles_and_Motorcycle_Lub
.
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Just to add my tuppence, my understanding of the situation is:-
10W-60 oil is:- The same viscocity as 10 SAE grade Dino oil at 0deg C.
The same viscocity as 60 SAE grade Dino oil at 100deg C.
Synthetheic oils (PAO or Ester) do not break down as much as Dino oils at high temperatures such as experienced in air/oil cooled motors.
There are several groups of oils.
I don't know what groups 1 & 2 are, presumably, Dino oils.
Group 3 oils are extra highly refined Dino oils which for some reason have been allowed to be called 'synthetic' but are still Dino oils.
Group 4 oils which are PAO synthetic oils and have certain properties of enabling seal swell similar to Dino oils.
Group 5 oils which are an Ester. They don't have much of the seal swell properties of Dino oil. This can cause oil leaks in old motors.
There are some oils that have been popular for motorcycle use which are (I believe) actually group 3 oils, e.g. Mobil One and Castrol Full Synthetic. There is no reason why these oils would not be OK in water cooled bikes as the maximum temperatures involved are lower than in air/oil cooled bikes.
Temperatures in air/oil cooled bikes are very high and require true synthetic oils as they will withstand higher temperatures without breakdown into carbon etc.
Most Synthetic oils that are not 'group three' oils are a mixture of groups 4 & 5 to achieve the desired characteristics.
Maybe this will help rather than confuse,
Cheers
Brian :grin:
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"The oil recommended for my bike isn't available at the closest Pep Boys to my house, so I have to find another kind. What does the board recommend?" Someone with a Moto Guzzi is disturbed because supplies and parts aren't available 3 miles from the house 18 hours a day? Really?"
The only parts I can readily get for the bike is at the local bearing/seal shop. And the dealer doesn't have most parts in stock.
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Personally I have enjoyed this conversation and have gain a great amount of knowledge on the, what I consider an important subject for guzzi owners, best oil for our bikes. If fact I have learned enough to come to this conclusion. It may not hurt my calvin to use a much less costly oil than the recommended 10-60 and the walmart 15-50 Mobil may carry her down the road 100k miles. On the other hand, is she worth the extra bucks to receive what her maker suggests and is Peace of mind knowing that I complied with the factory recommendation worth the extra effort and expense? Well, that's a question that each individual here must answer for themselves. As for me , I recon I'll head to NAPA and order 4 quarts of the best grade of 10-60 synthetic racing oil I can buy. Thanks to everyone who took of their time to post well researched responses to a complex and controversial issue such as this and for the respect that each poster displayed. Hats off to all you guys👍
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Personally I have enjoyed this conversation and have gain a great amount of knowledge on the, what I consider an important subject for guzzi owners, best oil for our bikes. If fact I have learned enough to come to this conclusion. It my not hurt my calvin to use a much less costly oil than the recommended 10-60 and the walmart 15-50 Mobil may carry her down the road 100k miles. On the other hand, is she worth the extra bucks to receive what her maker suggests and is Peace of mind knowing that I complied with the factory recommendation worth the extra effort and expense? Well, that's a question that each individual here must answer for themselves. As for me , I recon I'll head to NAPA and order 4 quarts of the best grade of 10-60 synthetic racing oil I can buy. Thanks to everyone who took of their time to post well researched responses to a complex and controversial issue such as this and for the respect that each poster displayed. Hats off to all you guys👍
Ditto
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However, be aware that some experts advise against "Racing Oil." They claim such oils are formulated for short-term use on a race track and not for extended highway use between changes.
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Personally I have enjoyed this conversation and have gain a great amount of knowledge on the, what I consider an important subject for guzzi owners, best oil for our bikes. If fact I have learned enough to come to this conclusion. It my not hurt my calvin to use a much less costly oil than the recommended 10-60 and the walmart 15-50 Mobil may carry her down the road 100k miles. On the other hand, is she worth the extra bucks to receive what her maker suggests and is Peace of mind knowing that I complied with the factory recommendation worth the extra effort and expense? Well, that's a question that each individual here must answer for themselves. As for me , I recon I'll head to NAPA and order 4 quarts of the best grade of 10-60 synthetic racing oil I can buy. Thanks to everyone who took of their time to post well researched responses to a complex and controversial issue such as this and for the respect that each poster displayed. Hats off to all you guys👍
Cost can't be the factor here:
I use about 3L per oil change on my Griso (to get about 1/2 way up the stick), so I'll take this out to qty. 3 X 5L jugs .
Mobil1 at Wally World is around $24/jug or $ 72.
Liqui Molly at Amazon is around $40/jug or $120. It's a little more at NAPA: $45 and for $135 total.
So to use the specified 10W60 will cost you an extra $50-60 bucks over 25-35k miles.
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However, be aware that some experts advise against "Racing Oil." They claim such oils are formulated for short-term use on a race track and not for extended highway use between changes.
got ya leaf, I should have clarified a recommended brand instead of RACING OIL.
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Cost can't be the factor here:
I use about 3L per oil change on my Griso (to get about 1/2 way up the stick), so I'll take this out to qty. 3 X 5L jugs .
Mobil1 at Wally World is around $24/jug or $ 72.
Liqui Molly at Amazon is around $40/jug or $120. It's a little more at NAPA: $45 and for $135 total.
So to use the specified 10W60 will cost you an extra $50-60 bucks over 25-35k miles.
I'm guessing an engine costs less than that, then?
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got ya leaf, I should have clarified a recommended brand instead of RACING OIL.
OK, now next thread - define RACING OIL.
Mobil 1 Racing4T?
Agip Racing4T - I mean that's the originally spec'd oil that started this thread no?
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OK, now next thread - define RACING OIL.
Mobil 1 Racing4T?
Agip Racing4T - I mean that's the originally spec'd oil that started this thread no?
The question is high detergent VS low or no detergent . Traditionally racing oils had no or very low detergents , where as street oils are high detergent .
Dusty
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The question is high detergent VS low or no detergent . Traditionally racing oils had no or very low detergents , where as street oils are high detergent .
Dusty
Without checking I suspect the term "racing oil" is being used for street oils in these and possibly other cases....
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Without checking I suspect the term "racing oil" is being used for street oils in these and possibly other cases....
Very possibly . Calling it racing oil may just be a marketing ploy . It is funny , tons of money get spent during any Nascar race extolling the virtues of a brand of oil or gasoline . I know all gasoline is spec , and I bet the oil is also .
Dusty
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If Moto Guzzi specifies an oil to use, that is exactly what I feel like using. I went to AFI and ordered 16 liters of
AGIP Oil 100% Synthetic 10W/60 4T Motor Oil. Easy peasy.
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I've looked in BOTH my local Pep Boys and O'Reilly, and I cannot locate Empire Violet 1w200 anyplace. I'll try NAPA next.
It sounds like an oil I could use in engine, gearbox and final drive, possibly even the brake master cylinders. :shocked:
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Very possibly . Calling it racing oil may just be a marketing ploy . It is funny , tons of money get spent during any Nascar race extolling the virtues of a brand of oil or gasoline . I know all gasoline is spec , and I bet the oil is also .
Dusty
Perhaps.
But then that goes back to the tangent about not using "Racing" oils because of lack of detergent, that might have been true at some point, but might not be applicable with anything on the market today.
Looks to me like it's been more than a decade that the term has been used on oils recommended for many street bikes, and the term "Racing 4T" can be found on products from Mobil, Castrol, Agip/Eni, etc.
https://www.google.com/search?q=motorcycle+oil+racing+4t&rlz=1C1EODB_enUS645US681&oq=motorcycle+oil+racing+4t&aqs=chrome..69i57.9135j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-
I checked that old Guzzi service bulletin about oil from 2006 - it's already calling all the oils they specified (CARC, Cali 1100 mechanical and hydraulic, and smallblock) RACING 4T.
I'm not sure if that's all marketing or part of an industry standard?
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The reason I read these threads it to get some idea of what I might use if I'm in Mexico or parts south on a trip and need an oil change. No way to get mail order and so limited to local stock. Would BMW car 10W60 be better than a motorcycle specific 20W50? I have no idea.
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Very possibly . Calling it racing oil may just be a marketing ploy . It is funny , tons of money get spent during any Nascar race extolling the virtues of a brand of oil or gasoline . I know all gasoline is spec , and I bet the oil is also .
Dusty
I'm not 100% sure about this but I recall reading that the SM grade limits on ZDDP content apply to conventional oils for regular road application. Special use oils may be subject to different level restrictions. I think a 10-60 rating qualifies as a special application and using the term "racing" may also be a way of making an oil special use.
Again, this is just something I think I read somewhere [emoji3]
Edit: I understand the following grades have to comply with the SAE SM category max zinc levels :
0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-20, 5W-30, 5W-40, 5W-50, 10W-30, 10W-40 and 10W-50.
Anything outside of that, or special application ("Racing"?) may not be subject to the limits.
But if somebody knows better I'll stand corrected!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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What is the SAE code for AGIP 10W60 oil?
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What is the SAE code for AGIP 10W60 oil?
SG
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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My first oil change was with Motoul 4T 4 stroke motor oil, 100% synthetic ester, rated "API SG/SH/SJ/SL/SM/SN" (think I posted a photo late Feb/early March) produced in France. Also plan to use it for the next change, in a couple months.
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Lannis:
Great psychological analysis of oil threads! I'd add one other point---it is an interesting psychological fact that people worry so much about oil, and "protecting their engine," when the vast majority of them don't get anywhere close to using the normal service life of the machine.
If you are only going to run the bike 10 to 30,000 miles before you sell it for something else, it probably doesn't matter that much what oil you use if it's decent quality and at least close to the recommended specification. For these people, the engine isn't going to wear out in any meaningful sense---you are going to divorce it long before you could perceive any differences between Oil A versus Oil B.
Seems to me that the only people who should rationally obsess about the subtle nuances of tribology are people who really do plan to run the engine 200,000, 300,000, or more miles. There probably are a few such people on a Guzzi forum; not so much on a Ducati race bike forum.
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SG
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Thanks. SG rated then I would look for a compatible oil. That's if I needed 10W60 for a Guzzi.
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The reason I read these threads it to get some idea of what I might use if I'm in Mexico or parts south on a trip and need an oil change. No way to get mail order and so limited to local stock. Would BMW car 10W60 be better than a motorcycle specific 20W50? I have no idea.
Aren't all late model Guzzi good for at least 6250 miles between oil changes? How many miles do you think you might put on in MX???
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I've looked in BOTH my local Pep Boys and O'Reilly, and I cannot locate Empire Violet 1w200 anyplace. I'll try NAPA next.
It sounds like an oil I could use in engine, gearbox and final drive, possibly even the brake master cylinders. :shocked:
Best post of the thread! :afro:
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I've looked in BOTH my local Pep Boys and O'Reilly, and I cannot locate Empire Violet 1w200 anyplace. I'll try NAPA next.
It sounds like an oil I could use in engine, gearbox and final drive, possibly even the brake master cylinders. :shocked:
Check "Advance Auto" and "Auto Zone". If it's not there, travel to the next town to Federated Auto parts. As a last resort, the refinery and warehouse is on the Turbo-Medillin road in Colombia.
Write when you get there!! :thumb:
Lannis
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Lannis:
Great psychological analysis of oil threads! I'd add one other point---it is an interesting psychological fact that people worry so much about oil, and "protecting their engine," when the vast majority of them don't get anywhere close to using the normal service life of the machine.
If you are only going to run the bike 10 to 30,000 miles before you sell it for something else, it probably doesn't matter that much what oil you use if it's decent quality and at least close to the recommended specification. For these people, the engine isn't going to wear out in any meaningful sense---you are going to divorce it long before you could perceive any differences between Oil A versus Oil B.
Seems to me that the only people who should rationally obsess about the subtle nuances of tribology are people who really do plan to run the engine 200,000, 300,000, or more miles. There probably are a few such people on a Guzzi forum; not so much on a Ducati race bike forum.
I have a feeling this response is more than likely the most accurate post thus far. I have never put more than 30k on any of the dozens of bikes I've owned. The id bet good money that any of those bikes would have made it flawlessly 30k ,simply using straight 30wt Dino non detergent lawnmower grade oil. Heck I've got an old air cooled Briggs and Stratton push mower with 1000 hours on that mention 30 wt Dino oil.
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I have a feeling this response is more than likely the most accurate post thus far. I have never put more than 30k on any of the dozens of bikes I've owned. The id bet good money that any of those bikes would have made it flawlessly 30k ,simply using straight 30wt Dino non detergent lawnmower grade oil. Heck I've got an old air cooled Briggs and Stratton push mower with 1000 hours on that mention 30 wt Dino oil.
Yeah , but straight 30W is what that old B&S engine calls for .
Dusty
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Lannis:
Great psychological analysis of oil threads! I'd add one other point---it is an interesting psychological fact that people worry so much about oil, and "protecting their engine," when the vast majority of them don't get anywhere close to using the normal service life of the machine.
I took advantage of those folks already! It's amazing what people will spend money on when it really means nothing.
When I bought my new bike at Scoot Richmond, the shop offered me a heavily discounted service package on the 600, 10000, and 20000 mile services. Since the new bike has shim-under-bucket valve lash adjustment such that valve adjustment is a camshaft-out job, and changing the air filter is a fairing-off, tank-off job, I thought it would be smart.
I've already taken advantage of the first two, at a savings of about $1000. I asked the shop manager "How do you guys make money on this? Is it worth that much to have the money up front?"
The answer, of course, is that over half the folks who buy the pre-paid service never even get to 10,000 miles before they quit riding the bike, or sell it on (the service isn't transferable), and so the shop never has to spend the time, and can spend it on MY bike, which WILL get all the miles on it.
I agree with you that oil is probably the same way.....
Lannis
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The other thing about grade / weight is that it's not uncommon for a motor oil to shear down a grade within the first 1000 miles or so after an oil change in a m/c application.
You may THINK you have a a 10W60 in your engine but REALLY its sheared to a 10W40. Google "agip 4T shears a lot".
Indeed I remember a thread here on WG where an oil light was coming on during hot weather but went away after an oil change.
With the Guzzi using a separate lube for the trans there's a good chance the agip doesn't shear as fast as a shared lube engine/trans.
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The other thing about grade / weight is that it's not uncommon for a motor oil to shear down a grade within the first 1000 miles or so after an oil change in a m/c application.
You may THINK you have a a 10W60 in your engine but REALLY its sheared to a 10W40. Google "agip 4T shears a lot".
Indeed I remember a thread here on WG where an oil light was coming on during hot weather but went away after an oil change.
With the Guzzi using a separate lube for the trans there's a good chance the agip doesn't shear as fast as a shared lube engine/trans.
Also the AGIP is Synthetic which doesn't shear as much as dino:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/effects-of-shearing/
Synthetic oils do not rely as much on special Viscosity Index Improver additives and will experience little permanent viscosity loss.
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The other thing about grade / weight is that it's not uncommon for a motor oil to shear down a grade within the first 1000 miles or so after an oil change in a m/c application.
You may THINK you have a a 10W60 in your engine but REALLY its sheared to a 10W40.
Hummm, I'm looking at a report from Blackstone Labs on my 2012 Stelvio. 7328 miles on this oil sample (32,360 on the bike). SUS Viscosity @210F was 100.4 (should be between 80 and 100), cSt Viscosity @ 100C was 20.45 (should be between 15.5 and 20.6). This was full synthetic 10W60 and the bike was ridden hard with ambient temps up to 103F. Your statement about shearing down a grade in 1000 miles may well apply to dino oil but full synthetic oil appears to be much more stable. For a while I was using 20W50 full synthetic and the results were not as good but still within the allowable range. The 10W60 results, for whatever reason, really are better and I suspect that's why Guzzi specified its use.
With that said, I once had a nephew whose parents gave him a new Corvette as a high school graduation present. Yep, spoiled brat. He took that car to college and for the next 4-5 years NEVER changed the oil. The car was still running when he got rid of it. Other abuse made the car a real POS (leaving the top off in the rain/snow) but the engine itself was still kicking.
Peter Y.
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+1 on the shear. I've noticed 10/60 lose pressure and gain temperature under all circumstances. If you manage to really overheat, synth can show frightening pressure drops. I once thought I'd lost a hydro engine. I overheated to the point that the ecu shut me down. I cooled it completely and thought the innards were burned up by the lifter clatter on startup and the low, low, low idle pressures thereafter. I was getting ready to change bearings and such when I thought to change the 2000-mile oil. Clatter and pressure problems gone at next startup. "Racing" oil, such as redline, seems to take the least miles to drop pressure. I'm real disappointed in the redline, specifically. But I'm not saying dino doesn't shear also.
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You guys need to look into Spectro Platinum 4 10W60. It's a Group 4 and Group 5 blend, PolyAlphaOlefin (PAO) and Polyol ester. I have heard Spectro uses polyol ester instead of cheaper di-ester. Polyol ester is used in jet aircraft engines where it is expected to flow at -85 F, pump readily at -40 F, and withstand sump temperatures exceeding 392 F with drain intervals measured in years. Polyol ester also has excellent additive solubility to hold the additive package in suspension and acts as a foam suppressant as well.
What better blend agent to use with a PAO base stock than polyol ester to create a motor oil very resistant to extreme high temperature operation?
All this time I'd not been aware Spectro made a 10W60 version of their flagship Platinum 4 product, but just checked and they do.
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What's it rated? If not SG, I won't put it in my bikes.
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:1: Need the alphabet rating to see if compatible.
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There's a downloadable MSDS sheet .doc file at the Spectro website.
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There's a downloadable MSDS sheet .doc file at the Spectro website.
I didn't see the ratings mentioned on the download, but the specs on main page for 10w60 -- http://spectro-oils.com/platinum-full-synthetic/ -- say: "A.P.I. SL/JASO MA/MA2."
That passes the test, right?
Hey, there's a dealer in Winchester. Wonder what it costs?
Bill
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What's it rated? If not SG, I won't put it in my bikes.
RK, the oil that Penrite make for the Guzzi is in fact an SM/CF rated oil. However, it has the full zinc loading and is actually rated as a 10w/70 weight.
It is a pao/ester full synthetic, non friction modified, and has a zinc load of over 1800ppm.
Actually,I have just checked the Penrite site and I see the latest iteration of the oil is now and SN, but is now just a 10w/60. I am using their Sin10 (I get a few oil changes out of a pack of oil) but their latest one is called "MC4ST" which is tending to follow the Castrol nomenclature. Probably saves confusion because they also make an oil of the same weight and viscosity which is not rated for bikes.
The oils in the States may be required to only have the SG rating because of the required zinc load. I know the zinc was taken out as it kills catalytic converters.
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No SG, no-go. :smiley:
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Just looked at their sheets Bill and it shows a zinc loading of "<2%". Not sure if my maths is correct :rolleyes: but it would appear to cover the ppm requirements.
The rest looks good too.
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No SG, no-go. :smiley:
My reading of the API specifications seems to say that if it is higher alphabetically than the recommended, then you are in good shape. Also, API.org list SG as being obsolete. :shocked:
http://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-documents/oil-categories#tab_gasoline (http://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-documents/oil-categories#tab_gasoline)
jdg
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This is what I run my local Hot Rod shop always has this in stock which is great.
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130
(https://www.redlineoil.com/content/images/products/130.png)
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This is what I run my local Hot Rod shop always has this in stock which is great.
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130
(https://www.redlineoil.com/content/images/products/130.png)
Pricey stuff!
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Pricey stuff!
yeah thats a fact
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My reading of the API specifications seems to say that if it is higher alphabetically than the recommended, then you are in good shape. Also, API.org list SG as being obsolete. :shocked:
http://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-documents/oil-categories#tab_gasoline (http://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-documents/oil-categories#tab_gasoline)
jdg
Yup.
SL includes -- as I understand it, a mile-wide disclaimer :wink: -- all priors, e.g., SG.
Bill
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My V7ii is usingMotul 10w60 but the Penrites looks like a cheaper option and is easily available from a local chain store. Is this the same Penrites mentioned above? Seems like it.
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What I use exclusively is Penrite 10 Tenths Premium Ten 10/60. Yes, it's pricey. Buy it in a 20L drum and get a drum pump and the cost drops dramatically. I've never had an oil related failure using Penrite products and the 10/60 puts up with the demands imposed by the 8V in 40*C+ heat just fine.
Pete
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Is it this stuff but in 10w60?
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Penrite-10-Tenths-Racing-10-Engine-Oil-10W-40-5-Litre/339062
How does that differ to the one mentioned earlier? It says full zinc but somebody mentioned damage to catalytic convertors.
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Penrite-MC-4-Synthetic-Motorcycle-Oil-10W-60-4-Litre/519011
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Page 37 of the Penrite catalogue.
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I get my Penrite 10-Tenths 10W-60 from Autobarn. It ain't cheap. Most Guzzista would have a coronary.
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Autobarn's advertising 30% off all engine oil at present, gunna check it out on the weekend :thumb:
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/j21r75/IMG_2652.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j21r75)
This is the oil my calvins PO used and recommended, anyone else here ever used this oil?
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/j21r75/IMG_2652.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j21r75)
This is the oil my calvins PO used and recommended, anyone else here ever used this oil?
I've used that on my Norge a few times
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/j21r75/IMG_2652.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j21r75)
This is the oil my calvins PO used and recommended, anyone else here ever used this oil?
I've used that on my Norge a few times
Draining from mine now.
ENI this time, but only because I have that.
Bill
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Draining from mine now.
ENI this time, but only because I have that.
Bill
I purchased a case of ENI last year, so I'll be using it for the next 3-4 oil changes :thumb:
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I use Motul 7100, have for years. Seems to work great, and smells good too!
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I use Motul 7100, have for years. Seems to work great, and smells good too!
I just ordered a 4liter jug on EBay for 47.99 including shipping.
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I have a feeling this response is more than likely the most accurate post thus far. I have never put more than 30k on any of the dozens of bikes I've owned. The id bet good money that any of those bikes would have made it flawlessly 30k ,simply using straight 30wt Dino non detergent lawnmower grade oil. Heck I've got an old air cooled Briggs and Stratton push mower with 1000 hours on that mention 30 wt Dino oil.
Yeah, why not pass the buck on to the next sucker... :shocked: :rolleyes:
#Ethics
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The 2 Penrite oils are API SN rated so should be okay to run. The only difference the upper range, I don't think you want 40W for Summer temps.
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I drive (in addition to my B-750) a VW GTI and VW specifies a Euro-Spec synthetic because of sludge build-up and subsequent engine failures of older GTI engines using non synthetics. The only one readily available here locally is Mobil 1 0W-40. In over 105K miles the engine is still clean. This may be a similar thing with the 10W-60 synthetic spec from Guzzi.
Jurgen
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I purchased a case of ENI last year, so I'll be using it for the next 3-4 oil changes :thumb:
Give that man a cigar. People order everything else in the world, but if the local shop doesn't carry their oil, it's suddenly a crisis .... ?
Lannis
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I use the Motul 7100.
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/j21r75/IMG_2652.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j21r75)
This is the oil my calvins PO used and recommended, anyone else here ever used this oil?
Yep. Another user here. Only because that's what the mechanic put in. I bought a litre for top ups but yet to use it. Thanks for the tip Ratty. The Penrite oil will be 5 litres for $60AUD on Saturday. Might be worth stocking up.
Is this the one you use Pete and Beetle? https://www.autobarn.com.au/penrite-premium-10-full-synthetic-10w60-5l
I'm guessing you can't mix oil brands but do you need to do some kind of flush when swapping to a different brand? From what I understand you do if going from synth to dino.
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Yeah, that's the stuff. As I said, buy it in a 20L drum, it's a lot cheaper.
Just drain the last lot out and put the new stuff in. Stop worrying, it'll be fine.
Pete
PS. There are two drain plugs on the smallblock sump. Remove both.
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Cheers for that. Not worrying. Just curious. Another 7000km before next change.
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My old dealer in Spokane stocked and used the Motorex 4t Power Synt 10w-60 for servicing my V7 and V7II
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Shortly after buying my V7 I bought a case of AGIP/ENI (I think I still had a few bottles leftover from the case I bought for my Breva 1100). Anyway, I'm down to one oil change left these five years later and I guess it's time to spend less on another case than I would for one night out with the wife.
Shyte you guys are cheap bastids!!!!
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Yeah, why not pass the buck on to the next sucker... :shocked: :rolleyes:
#Ethics
Lighten up Poterhouse, just kidding. I use the best of everything in my motors and have for 45 years and yes a lot of the money was pissed away. Also truth be known most any bike would run 100k on reprocess oil, lmbo
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I've always used the recommended oil.
But I'm beginning to think that we have discussed oil specs more, and really care more about them, than the Guzzi engineers ever did.
The Griso 1100 was originally specified for 4T 5W 40 (in the owner's manual) and then respecified to 4T 10W 60 in a bulletin. Then 4T 10W 60 was also specified for the much higher output 1200. Why did the 1100 specification get revised?
I think the Guzzi engineers just picked likely specifications out of the Agip product brochure, without much deep thought. For them, after all, the extra expense of the higher grade oil meant absolutely nothing. When the 10W 60 came along, they said, "Sure, wazza matter, why not? We put him in everything, they all be good. Lezza go for espresso!"
As for us, let's put him in all our bikes too, and go for espresso. Wazza matter?
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I've always used the recommended oil.
But I'm beginning to think that we have discussed oil specs more, and really care more about them, than the Guzzi engineers ever did.
The Griso 1100 was originally specified for 4T 5W 40 (in the owner's manual) and then respecified to 4T 10W 60 in a bulletin. Then 4T 10W 60 was also specified for the much higher output 1200. Why did the 1100 specification get revised?
I think the Guzzi engineers just picked likely specifications out of the Agip product brochure, without much deep thought. For them, after all, the extra expense of the higher grade oil meant absolutely nothing. When the 10W 60 came along, they said, "Sure, wazza matter, why not? We put him in everything, they all be good. Lezza go for espresso!"
As for us, let's put him in all our bikes too, and go for espresso. Wazza matter?
Spot on moto
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The Griso 1100 was originally specified for 4T 5W 40 (in the owner's manual) and then respecified to 4T 10W 60 in a bulletin. Then 4T 10W 60 was also specified for the much higher output 1200. Why did the 1100 specification get revised?
WAS it actually spec'd for 5W-40, or was that a typo, i.e. a careless write of the new manual which blocked and copied from a previous model for some of the content (a very common way these manuals are built)?
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WAS it actually spec'd for 5W-40, or was that a typo, i.e. a careless write of the new manual which blocked and copied from a previous model for some of the content (a very common way these manuals are built)?
No. Previous models did not specify 5W-40, so far as I can tell, so your suggestion doesn't seem plausible in this case.
The introduction to the engine in a company presentation makes clear that the 1100 is very similar to the V11, which carried a very mundane oil specification in its workshop manual:
Engine sump 3,5 "Agip 4T SUPER RACING SAE 20W50" oil
This is not much different from the T-3's specification 30 years earlier:
Agip SINT 2000 SAE 10W 50
Here's how Guzzi described the differences between the new Breva/Griso engine and the earlier V11, in the so-called Breva 1100 Service Manual, which was really a set of powerpoint slides:
From a technical point of view the engine is very similar to the one already installed to the V11.
A series of optimisations and improvements of single components have been Implemented.
Principal novelties are:
• alternator (is explained later in ELETTROMECHANICAL COMPONENTS)
• oil circuit with pressure valve and external oil filter
• valve retainer with three grooves to allow rotation for even wear of the valve • longer drive shaft (4 mm)
• new 1st piston ring with L-shape to reduce blow-by gas
• cylinder head and base gasket metallic
• sintered valve seats
• two spark plugs per cylinder (is explained later in IGNITION COMPONENTS) • new aspect cylinder head covers
• new gearbox
The recommended engine oil for the Breva/Griso engine in that early document is also Agip RACING 4T 5W-40.
The 5W-40 recommendation was not simply a copying of the one for the similar V11, since that was 20W 50. It was just a routine substitution of a more modern oil for the same basic engine.
Another factor that might have played a role in the eventual change to 10W60 is a desire to make the Guzzi 1100 seem more exotic than it really is. If it needs such expensive oil, it must be a cutting-edge design, right? The answer is no, it's just the old design being "oil-engineered" to seem like a new one, just like cars have been "badge engineered" into new ones from times long ago.
These comments of course wouldn't apply to the 1200 8V engine, which is a different animal.
Moto
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I drive (in addition to my B-750) a VW GTI and VW specifies a Euro-Spec synthetic because of sludge build-up and subsequent engine failures of older GTI engines using non synthetics. The only one readily available here locally is Mobil 1 0W-40. In over 105K miles the engine is still clean. This may be a similar thing with the 10W-60 synthetic spec from Guzzi.
Jurgen
The small turbo runs HOT & cooks the oil, it then breaks down & causes the sludge. Over the years VW came out with several oil specs, yours is probably 502.00. Though it is possible for an oil to meet this spec & simply not carry the rating, without knowing I think any owner would want to stick with the rated oils. It's reported that the 502.00 spec didn't eliminate the sludge issue but I imagine it helped quite a bit.
Guzzi likely specifies a synthetic for two reasons:
- There is no conventional oil that spans a viscosity range like 10W60
- A higher thermal breakdown specification
The XXW60 & the higher temperature rating is no doubt for operation in hot weather. If someone were to run a 10W40 conventional oil in this engine for use in a moderate climate application, they'd want to know the highest temperature the oil is exposed to after shut-down without circulation.
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No. Previous models did not specify 5W-40, so far as I can tell, so your suggestion doesn't seem plausible in this case.
Moto
The 5W-40 recommendation was not simply a copying of the one for the similar V11, since that was 20W 50. It was just a routine substitution of a more modern oil for the same basic engine.
The manual for the 2004 V11 specifies Agip Racing 4T SAE 5W-40. Page 156
The manual for the 2003-4 Cali EV also specifies Agip Racing 4T SAE 5W-40. Page 170
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No. Previous models did not specify 5W-40, so far as I can tell, so your suggestion doesn't seem plausible in this case.
The introduction to the engine in a company presentation makes clear that the 1100 is very similar to the V11, which carried a very mundane oil specification in its workshop manual:
Engine sump 3,5 "Agip 4T SUPER RACING SAE 20W50" oil
This is not much different from the T-3's specification 30 years earlier:
Agip SINT 2000 SAE 10W 50
Here's how Guzzi described the differences between the new Breva/Griso engine and the earlier V11, in the so-called Breva 1100 Service Manual, which was really a set of powerpoint slides:
The recommended engine oil for the Breva/Griso engine in that early document is also Agip RACING 4T 5W-40.
The 5W-40 recommendation was not simply a copying of the one for the similar V11, since that was 20W 50. It was just a routine substitution of a more modern oil for the same basic engine.
Another factor that might have played a role in the eventual change to 10W60 is a desire to make the Guzzi 1100 seem more exotic than it really is. If it needs such expensive oil, it must be a cutting-edge design, right? The answer is no, it's just the old design being "oil-engineered" to seem like a new one, just like cars have been "badge engineered" into new ones from times long ago.
These comments of course wouldn't apply to the 1200 8V engine, which is a different animal.
Moto
See Nick's post.
You see how someone can be VERY CERTAIN something is true, but then some more information arises?
Again, maybe it's just my career in writing manuals for these sorts of things which is why I jumped to that potential conclusion early on, but it sure seems plausible.
Of course there's another possibility. They purposely spec'd the oil they had been using, but didn't completely vet it until their "beta" testers (the owners of new bikes) started showing some problems/failures and then they changed the spec.
That tech bulletin that came out in 2006 MIGHT have been because of typos, but it equally could have been because they changed the recommendation. Sure it could have just been because of a new corporate deal with AGIP, but it could have been because of changes in AGIP's formulation, because of things learned in the field etc.
I don't think we'll ever know for sure. Though I'll point out the actual WORDING of the tech bulletin tells you to check the owner's manuals and then says it takes the liberty of reminding you what the correct recommendations ARE and then lists the 10-60 for the Breva/Norge/Griso. Which again suggests anything else shown in earlier copies was a typo and not the actual intended spec. Again, maybe this is why I reached that conclusion a decade ago.
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Just as an FYI:
The 2006 Norge manual (2007 in the US) does recommend Agip Racing 4T 10W-60, but it also states:
As an alternative to the recommended oils, you can also use brand name oils with performance that meets or exceeds the CCMC G-4 A.P.I. SG standards
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See Nick's post.
You see how someone can be VERY CERTAIN something is true, but then some more information arises?
Um. I didn't say I was VERY CERTAIN. I said SO FAR AS I CAN TELL. (Though I didn't resort to ALL CAPS.)
I copied the text "Engine sump 3,5 `Agip 4T SUPER RACING SAE 20W50'" oil directly from an edition of the V11 Sport manual on my home computer (not accessible right now). So the change to 10W 40 seems to have occurred during the run of the V11 Sport, by 2014, per the evidence in Nick's first post.
The appearance of 10W 40 in multiple early 1100 Breva/Griso documents [the aforementioned Service Manual, the Owner's manual of my Griso 1100, the 1100 (Breva/Griso) Engine Manual, the Griso 1100 Workshop Manual, to name four], COULD have been a typo that was mindlessly copied by the authors of the various documents. But I see no technical reason at all that the Breva/Griso 1100 motor, essentially the same as the V11 Sport's (per my previous evidence) would have needed 10W 60. So I think it was originally intended that the "new" engine use the same oil as the very similar V11 Sport's. It was a copying all right, but not an erroneous copying of text, just a continuation of the existing 10W 40 recommendation for the motor.
I'm not really interested in the history per se. What I am basically suggesting is that the change to 10W 60 from 10W 40 for the Breva/Griso 1100 might not have been related to any engineering improvements in its engine (which was essentially the same as previous big blocks), but may have been done as a routine reaction to the offering of new oils by Agip, a pattern seen in the past, or to "rev up" the apparent spec of the motor in sales brochures. It could also have been done just to simplify the oil specifications across the whole range, once the 1200 2V Norge was deemed to need it, in 2006.
The 750 small blocks eventually also acquired a 10W 60 specification, though I don't know when. Perhaps this also occurred for non-performance related reasons like the ones I'm suggesting. Is the small block also a high-performance fire breather?
Now if there were lubrication-related failures of the V11 Sport series, I might be wrong about this. But if there weren't (and I don't remember any), I might be right. After all, the V11 Sports had a relatively long run using 20W 50 and 10W 40.
As I said, I don't know FOR CERTAIN and I CONTINUE TO USE 10W 60 in my Griso 1100.
I NOW RETURN to my regular use of the caps key, and to the other work I need to get done.
Moto
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Thanks guys, it's 3am here and I can't sleep.
Reading this thread has put me off nicely zzzzzzzzz
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Um. I didn't say I was VERY CERTAIN. I
My bad, that's how I read the response. No biggie - no offense taken or intended and hope you feel the same.
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My bad, that's how I read the response. No biggie - no offense taken or intended and hope you feel the same.
No problem. I just finished up that post, so it's now different from what I accidentally submitted. None of this is a big deal, though I think there is a reasonable case to suspect the 1100 Breva/Griso never needed 10W 60, as my revised posting (above) argues more clearly.
Now back to work for me, and for those of you in the Antipodes, back to sleep!
Moto
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Moto there is something you keep ignoring with your position.
You seem to be suggesting the oil spec ONLY has to do with the mechanical design of the motor and therefore something similar mechanically couldn't need a different oil.
However the 2006 service bulletin opens by mentioning another reason for oil specs "tightening homologation" meaning state of tune.
Simply put the fuel mapping alone could change combustion temperatures requiring an oil with better resistance to thermal breakdown and better performance for those hotter temperatures.
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Thanks guys, it's 3am here and I can't sleep.
Reading this thread has put me off nicely zzzzzzzzz
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From the lowest part of the U.S. in the Northern Hemispere. Totally understand. :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Moto there is something you keep ignoring with your position.
You seem to be suggesting the oil spec ONLY has to do with the mechanical design of the motor and therefore something similar mechanically couldn't need a different oil.
However the 2006 service bulletin opens by mentioning another reason for oil specs "tightening homologation" meaning state of tune.
Simply put the fuel mapping alone could change combustion temperatures requiring an oil with better resistance to thermal breakdown and better performance for those hotter temperatures.
Now that's a fact Kev, tuning most definitely effects the heat ranges of not only these bikes but Harley's as I experienced first hand.
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Moto there is something you keep ignoring with your position.
You seem to be suggesting the oil spec ONLY has to do with the mechanical design of the motor and therefore something similar mechanically couldn't need a different oil.
However the 2006 service bulletin opens by mentioning another reason for oil specs "tightening homologation" meaning state of tune.
Simply put the fuel mapping alone could change combustion temperatures requiring an oil with better resistance to thermal breakdown and better performance for those hotter temperatures.
Sure, it's possible, though the V11 Sport and Griso are in the same state of tune so far as I can see, both in mechanical specs and output. Doesn't explain the 10W60 for the 750 V7 Classic.
I think my explanation makes more sense. <shrug>
Moto
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Well, my new V7iii is probably toast. At the first oil change I let the dealer use 10-60 Motul, which is their preferred oil as they sell/service mostly Ducatis.
Maybe all is not lost and I can mitigate damage by changing to Agip on the next oil change.
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(Gurgle!) I really hope you're joking?
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(Gurgle!) I really hope you're joking?
I hope so too.
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I hope so too.
:huh:
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Sure, it's possible, though the V11 Sport and Griso are in the same state of tune so far as I can see, both in mechanical specs and output. Doesn't explain the 10W60 for the 750 V7 Classic.
I think my explanation makes more sense. <shrug>
Moto
No they are not in the same state of tune it they are meeting different emissions standards.
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Never use Ducati oil in a Moto Guzzi , it will cause the cam belts to break leading to power band failure :shocked:
Dusty
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Power Band -- like Journey or Cheap Trick? I thought they were too big to fail. :undecided:
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Well, my new V7iii is probably toast. At the first oil change I let the dealer use 10-60 Motul, which is their preferred oil as they sell/service mostly Ducatis.
Maybe all is not lost and I can mitigate damage by changing to Agip on the next oil change.
Does the V7III use different oil to the V7II? A few of us with V7II's have mentioned using Motul 10w60.
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Could it possibly be just a "deal" between the two companies?????? NAGHHHHHH; say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!
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A question to Pete Roper.. My Norge has now done 120,000 and I've used what we have here as Motul 7100 (previously 5100) ALL of it's life, it uses virtually no oil between changes 10,000 k intervals. Does that surprise you at all, or is it not unusual? I'm currently in bed and can't check, but I think it's 10w60.
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It surprises me not a jot.
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A question to Pete Roper.. My Norge has now done 120,000 and I've used what we have here as Motul 7100 (previously 5100) ALL of it's life, it uses virtually no oil between changes 10,000 k intervals. Does that surprise you at all, or is it not unusual? I'm currently in bed and can't check, but I think it's 10w60.
So like 74,000 miles . My old Jackal is approaching twice that with no oil burning , you Metric guys trying to impress us Imperial folks , sheesh :grin:
Dusty
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Does the V7III use different oil to the V7II? A few of us with V7II's have mentioned using Motul 10w60.
I have no idea. I have a total of 2 months Guzzi ownership under my belt. KTM guys (I own a 690 Enduro) really like the Motul oil, and here I learn Agypt is the brand of preference. My head spins.
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AGIP.
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AGIP.
Are you certain. At the prices I see for it my name may be closer to the truth.
Just kidding, I will likely move to it next oil change.
Next question of course, what interval between changes using this liquid gold product?
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Whatever the interval the factory says for the bike. :thumb: If it's API compatible....use it.
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Unless my bottle label is lying to me, Motul 10W60 7100 is okay as it is rated as SN yet reverse compatible to SG...
(http://thumb.ibb.co/g7XF4k/IMG_0018.jpg) (http://ibb.co/g7XF4k)
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:thumb:
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AGIP.
Agip has been rebranded as Eni. (Agip was a subsidiary of Eni; both are Italian acronyms.) A pdf brochure on their motorcycle oils is here:
https://www.eni.com/en_NA/products-services/automotive-lubricants/engine-oils/bikes/bikes.shtml (https://www.eni.com/en_NA/products-services/automotive-lubricants/engine-oils/bikes/bikes.shtml)
I believe the correct substitute for the Agip branded oil for our bikes is this:
Eni 4T i-Ride MotoGP 10W-60
I have bottles of it on my shelf. Specs are:
API SG JASO MA MA2
But there are also these other two in the brochure, w/ no specs listed:
Eni 4T i-Ride 10W-60 [listed for Piaggio products]
Eni i-Ride Aprilia Racing 10W-60
Evidently Eni is up to cross-branding w/ Piaggio for marketing purposes. When I bought my last batch, I think Moto Guzzi was mentioned as being in need of the MotoGP type I bought. (Obviously, my two-valve per cylinder ditch pump would be in need of the same stuff that Eni claims is used in MotoGP bikes, price be damned.)
Moto
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Motoul 7100 was used for the first oil change and will be used for the second, in about a month.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89848.msg1420688#msg1420688
I was planning on switching to Castrol 10/60, API SN (readily available and reasonably priced) , but this discussion has convinced me to stay with Motoul. Be good to find it for less than $63.25 for 4 liters!
Fortunately O'Reilly's has a very liberal return policy, so I can return the 6 quarts @ $7.99 each.
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I would add that anti-foaming tendency would be an important attribute since Guzzi relies heavily upon oil cooling. One thing I noticed on the product info page for ENI/AGIP 10W60 is a specific reference to strong anti-foaming additives.
My Ducati's always had a sight glass, which was handy not only for a quick spot check of the oil level, but after high rpm run you could pull off, stop and check the sight glass for foam. The only oil I ever saw exhibit a rather disturbing amount of foam which appeared as the top 1/2 of the oil visible in the sight glass, was Amsoil MCT 10W40, their motorcycle specific oil supposedly JASO MA API/SL approved. Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40 never showed any surface foam or even surface bubbles. Silkolene Pro 4 15W50 would show very minor surface bubbles. Spectro Platinum 4 no foam or bubbles.
Of course, what can be seen through a one inch diameter sight glass is certainly not solid proof, but it can give hints.
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Motoul 7100 was used for the first oil change and will be used for the second, in about a month.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89848.msg1420688#msg1420688
I was planning on switching to Castrol 10/60, API SN (readily available and reasonably priced) , but this discussion has convinced me to stay with Motoul. Be good to find it for less than $63.25 for 4 liters!
Fortunately O'Reilly's has a very liberal return policy, so I can return the 6 quarts @ $7.99 each.
I just placed an order last week for A four liter jug for 46.00. Google eBay and search for best prices.
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I would add that anti-foaming tendency would be an important attribute since Guzzi relies heavily upon oil cooling. One thing I noticed on the product info page for ENI/AGIP 10W60 is a specific reference to strong anti-foaming additives.
My Ducati's always had a sight glass, which was handy not only for a quick spot check of the oil level, but after high rpm run you could pull off, stop and check the sight glass for foam. The only oil I ever saw exhibit a rather disturbing amount of foam which appeared as the top 1/2 of the oil visible in the sight glass, was Amsoil MCT 10W40, their motorcycle specific oil supposedly JASO MA API/SL approved. Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40 never showed any surface foam or even surface bubbles. Silkolene Pro 4 15W50 would show very minor surface bubbles. Spectro Platinum 4 no foam or bubbles.
Of course, what can be seen through a one inch diameter sight glass is certainly not solid proof, but it can give hints.
I would be more concerned if the oil met the weight range. Is you Duck okay with 10W40?
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I would be more concerned if the oil met the weight range. Is you Duck okay with 10W40?
I think that's what most Monsters spec'd over the years so it wouldn't surprise me if most Ducs used that.
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Then by all means whatever oil in that range that you want to use.
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10W40 was only an option for my 2013 Multistrada, was on the viscosity vs ambient temperature chart for that bike but the 2016 that replaced it (thanks to a deer collision) was spec'd for 15W50 only, they did not even have a viscosity vs ambient temp chart in the manual. I'd tried various oils in the 2013 and the one that kept the shifting (shared sump wet clutch) smooth the longest and kept the desmo valvetrain the quietest was Spectro Platinum 4 15W50 and that was what I had in the 2016 Multi when I bagged it in February.
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One of the friends here had same year Multi-Strada. Too many problems with the bike. He turned it back into the dealer. The last I heard is that he got another large Monster.
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One of the friends here had same year Multi-Strada. Too many problems with the bike. He turned it back into the dealer. The last I heard is that he got another large Monster.
They are very complex bikes, especially electronically. Murphy's law. Even more so for model yr 2015 and above. Great bikes but when I had mine the thought of what is in store for me long term like 5+ yrs down the line, would often cross my mind. The rear shock unit alone on the electronic "skyhook" active suspension has a part cost of $2500 or so, should it fail. Desmo valve lash adjustments and timing belt changes are not simple on them and a lot of tear down is required along with the skill to perform the valve check once it's apart and accessible.
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If guys would worry as much about what they put in their bodies as they do what oil they put in a their put in their engines they would be a much healthier bunch. It`s kind of funny but sad also. Anyway, anybody ever seen an engine failure that can be directly related to not using the "correct" oil ? I have seen grey paste like stuff in the bottom of Motul oil bottles, which always concerned me.
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If guys would worry as much about what they put in their bodies as they do what oil they put in a their put in their engines they would be a much healthier bunch. It`s kind of funny but sad also. Anyway, anybody ever seen an engine failure that can be directly related to not using the "correct" oil ? I have seen grey paste like stuff in the bottom of Motul oil bottles, which always concerned me.
Yes.
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If guys would worry as much about what they put in their bodies as they do what oil they put in a their put in their engines they would be a much healthier bunch. It`s kind of funny but sad also. Anyway, anybody ever seen an engine failure that can be directly related to not using the "correct" oil ? I have seen grey paste like stuff in the bottom of Motul oil bottles, which always concerned me.
Ummm. . . . yes. . . .
That gray paste is probably part of the additive package -- moly, if your spec calls for moly, since that seems to fall out of solution readily and appears as a gray paste. The moral of the story is to shake it, shake it good, before pouring.
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:1:
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If you should shake moly good before putting it in your bike doesn't sound like it should be put in your MC in the 1st place. Sounds like you should then shake your MC oil good before you ride it again. :huh: I haven't added moly for decades in my Guzzi oils and have never regretted it. :azn: I just use GL-5 oil and have yet to have a gear failure, no matter the viscosity.
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Ummm. . . . yes. . . .
That gray paste is probably part of the additive package -- moly, if your spec calls for moly, since that seems to fall out of solution readily and appears as a gray paste. The moral of the story is to shake it, shake it good, before pouring.
How would I shake it if it sat in the bike for 3 months of winter?
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Once you start riding it, the action and heat will reconstitute. Ever made a cake with a blender, its the same principal!
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How would I shake it if it sat in the bike for 3 months of winter?
Within five minutes of starting it'll be shaken well enough! :grin:
Pete
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If you should shake moly good before putting it in your bike doesn't sound like it should be put in your MC in the 1st place. Sounds like you should then shake your MC oil good before you ride it again. :huh: I haven't added moly for decades in my Guzzi oils and have never regretted it. :azn: I just use GL-5 oil and have yet to have a gear failure, no matter the viscosity.
Sounds ignorant.
How would I shake it if it sat in the bike for 3 months of winter?
The same way you do after any other period of time. Run it. :rolleyes:
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Once you start riding it, the action and heat will reconstitute. Ever made a cake with a blender, its the same principal!
It`s not really the same principle, A blender pulls down and blends. Seems like a problematic oil. It seems to be the only one with this issue. Anyway I don`t intend on using it. I think I will worry more about my diet
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Sounds ignorant.
Kind of mean spirited
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Kind of mean spirited
A reasonable reply to a mocking comment.
BTW -- do you have any idea what goes on inside a guzzi engine? Think about it. It self-stirs. One big challenge in the 90ºV is keeping the whipping and splashing under control.
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Sounds ignorant.
I've been doing this, riding Guzzis for 33 years for maybe 200K miles on 5 different ones . How long have you been riding Guzzis, Rodekyll?
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A reasonable reply to a mocking comment.
BTW -- do you have any idea what goes on inside a guzzi engine? Think about it. It self-stirs. One big challenge in the 90ºV is keeping the whipping and splashing under control.
Rk, you don't put moly in the motor, you put it in the rearend. You just flunked this test.
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Rk, you don't put moly in the motor, you put it in the rearend. You just flunked this test.
Actually most synthetic oils contain moly , Motul does for certain . So no , RK doesn't fail the test .
Dusty
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You are right that we don't add moly to the engine oil. But I didn't say that. I said shake the bottle before pouring. Moly is a component of the SG (and other) additive package. A lot of mfgrs wanted it for flat tappet engines, but as catcons became more popular, the spec, which also included zinc (which might also show as gray paste, I guess) fell out of favor. I raised heck with the converters. You don't add moly. It's already there.
Next question.
Oh. There it is.
Sounds ignorant.
I've been doing this, riding Guzzis for 33 years for maybe 200K miles on 5 different ones . How long have you been riding Guzzis, Rodekyll?
You're a neophyte, then. I've owned my daily driver, Rodekyll, much longer than you've been riding. I've got 200k on it alone. Got my first one, Rollonda, in '74. Mt. St. Helens killed it or I'd probably still have it kicking around, too. I liked Rollonda, except for the brakes. But anyone can ride them. As a certified mechanic, I've never had one in the shop.
Any more questions?
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SG dino oil has not been used for quite a few years now. I only use current dino oil so far in all my vehicles. Some think that without SG oil your Guzzi motor will self destruct (I have 3) and have yet to see that happen in all my Guzzi motors. I still run whatever car/dino oil is current and have no issues with motors suddenly dying. Even in my Piaggio/Aprilia maxi scooters (3) I do not run synthetic oils as recommended with no regrets for many years now. I just change the oil more often than recommended. :azn: All my rigs have screw/nut adjustments for valve clearances so if there is an issue I will see it.
I'm not recommending you to change your beliefs. Just letting .you know my experiences and beliefs. :azn:
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So what should we eat for lunch tomorrow?
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I like that question better.
I found some cases of jarred salmon that I brought down from Alaska. They were with my secret recipe raspberry-blueberry-banana-tapioca jam. The jam was for today. Good stuff! I'm thinking a salmon salad sandwich with an avocado/tomato salad for tomorrow. :food:
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This thread, now at six pages (at least according to my browser) reminds me of why I limit my discussion of oil issues and selection to things that have been proven either by chemistry or by actual experience. People I know, some I have met, many of whom I respect, are discussing each others standing rather than the basis for their views.
10w60 is specified because that is what the engineers had in mind when they designed the current and recent (i.e., 2006 and later) MG engines. They selected it because the oil chosen gave a combination of properties in terms of heat transfer, degredation resistance, and other characteristics that made it easier to achieve other goals for their engine designs. We may question their choices or whether they adequately considered all the environments in which their designs might be used, but the basic fact is that the designs specs are what they are. We might elect to diverge from their intentions and expectations, but we should accept that when we do so we are on our own as far as results are concerned.
I appreciate the expertise and research others have gained and share here. I know that some feel their own experience may go beyond what the engineers in Mandello del Lario may have anticipated. But please, gentlemen and ladies (for indeed there are some well informed ones), let's keep it constructive. I'd love to keep learning from you all, but it's easier when the critique is focused on the evidence and experience.
I know I ride my 2008 Norge in ways and under conditions the designers did not expect as ordinary. It gets about 25,000 miles a year or more under conditions more stressful than any Italian would see short of living in Libya. It does rather well with 10w60 in whatever flavor (flavour, for the upside-down or Euro types) is available. I haven't yet seen any reason to be fussier than the published specs, and the current 126,000 miles would seem to provide empirical evidence that any gains, though real, would be meaningful to most riders who average somewhat fewer miles per year.
I am planning on buying a couple more CARC bikes in the coming year, new or used - but I fully expect my somewhat pragmatic approach to be equally successful with my new machines. I'll be so unhappy if they only make a quarter million miles each before needing a rebuild.... :wink:
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Why the drama? It's just a discussion.
Which is turning into a "I know more than you" thread. That's why.
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Ummm. . . . yes. . . .
That gray paste is probably part of the additive package -- moly, if your spec calls for moly, since that seems to fall out of solution readily and appears as a gray paste. The moral of the story is to shake it, shake it good, before pouring.
Molybdenum dithiocarbamates don't fall out of suspension that easily. If a motor oil needs to be shaken well before being put into service it is the product of an inferior blend process and I would be switching brands in a hurry.
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Darn and I thought I was going to have to shake my Strada. :evil: :azn:
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I think you should do that Tom, along with pics and a short tutorial. Would be much more exciting than this thread :evil: :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
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Chuckie has a pix of a tee showing Mr. Nevada hoisting his bike. :grin: