Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Edgo897 on October 27, 2017, 08:25:24 PM
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Took my bike on its first long ride yesterday and today. It's got 24k on it. I've gone though all the systems and replaced the usual stuff. After riding about 75 miles after a gas stop, I stopped to top off the tank. When I turned the ignition on the fuel pump didn't buzz and the bike wouldn't start. I turned the ignition off and on a couple of times and the pump buzzed and the bike fired up and ran fine. On the way home today it did it again after a gas stop. So do I have a bad ignition switch or is the pump going out? When the key is turned all the dash lights fire up. It has a new Odyssey Battery.
Thanks,
Ed
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Sounds like the pump . Sometimes a good cleaning will prolong their service life .
Dusty
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check your fuses. the same thing happened to me.
The fuses get corroded and the fuse block doesn't always hold the fuses tight.
I had the same problem and it persisted for more than a year. The bike wouldn't restart, usually at a gas station. Since I wear ear plugs I didn't listed for the fuel pump. It was confirmed at Dusty's campout when the bike quit and Rudy was testing for current and he only touched the fuse and the pump came on.
Even after replacing the fuse, using dielectric grease, and installing the new fuse with some "english", it has happened again on a couple of occasions.
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I did use tuner cleaner and grease on the fuses and put in new relays. I went through the bike fairly thoroughly. I even had a new fuel pump in the trunk but didn't swap it on the road.
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I didn't clean the connections to the pump. That was dump. I'll try that.
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clean up or get rid of the sidestand safety switch.. just in case..
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clean up or get rid of the sidestand safety switch.. just in case..
I think this is it as well, the fact that the idiot lights are coming on points away from the ignition switch.
if the stand relay doesn't close the ECU relay doesn't pick up so neither roes the power relay.
On the EV or at least on the one I had the Normally open contact is used so unplugging the stand switch should make the relay contacts close
I would change out the relay for a start the Normally closed contacts are a bit of a a wet point.
I often suggest adding a small light to the petcock fuse this can be quite useful for troubleshooting, it can just sit under the seat.
If the stand relay is not making good contact this light will wink away at you hence this has been christened the "Go Winkie Light"
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Here is why I don't think it is a relay or the sidestand switch . The bike is running fine , which indicates the switch and relay is fine . It is doing exactly what mine , and several others have done when the pump gets week and can't get its self started . Easy to check , run a jumper and see if the pump runs .
Dusty
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You might be right Dusty, perhaps the brushes are worn down so they barely touch the armature, I think that would be a high milage bike for that to happen, any suggestion as to at what point the pump should be changed out?
I have experienced trouble with the stand circuit as well, its a very common problem on the spine frame bikes
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You might be right Dusty but I have experienced trouble with the stand circuit as well, its a very common problem on the spine frame bikes
Won't a bad sidestand switch kill the starter motor ? Maybe we should start there .
Dusty
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If it's a marginal pump, whacking it with a wrench as you toggle the kill button should overcome the sticksion and kick it into life. Reversing the pump leads will reverse the pump and blow out anything in the pump's internal screen. Don't do this too long, since the available fuel is only what's in the loop. If the whacking helps and the reversing doesn't then the pump is failing.
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For some reason the best tool for whacking the fuel pump is a 10 MM combination wrench manufactured in Germany before 1970 , although in a pinch a rock tied to a stick will work .
Dusty
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Won't a bad sidestand switch kill the starter motor ? Maybe we should start there .
Dusty
Edgo897 said
"..when I turned the ignition on the fuel pump didn't buzz and the bike wouldn't start."
Perhaps by "wouldn't start" he meant "wouldn't crank"
Yes the stand relay feeds 12 Volts to the Start Relay and the ECU relay
Everything is pointing at the stand switch or relay
The 98 EV uses the Normally closed relay contact, the switch may be tracking across, its 20 years old after all
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Yes it turns over but won't fire. No fuel pump buzz but lights come on. Thank you all very much. I'm looking for the proper rock and stick.
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So how do I disable the stand switch? It's so unnecessary. I think it's the pump but don't want that switch.
And by the way I rode from just North of Tampa across Florida back roads to New Smyrna Beach, then up and down that coastal area. It was without question the two most beautiful days this year. Once the bike started it performed great. It never missed a beat.
I was sitting at a stoplight, almost home, when a guy on a Harley trike pulled up next to me. He looked at my Guzzi and said "that is a badass f*cking motorcycle".
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Just unplug it, follow wire up front down tube on frame, may be behind the frame cover in front of tank. All you have to do is unplug it.
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Get yourself a can of Caig DeOxit. Pull each fuse in turn, give it and the fuse holder a squirt, stick it back in, wiggle it around.. oh, you know.. :smiley:
If you haven't upgraded the relays, do that. Pyro Dan sells GCIs cheap. There has been a fair amount of testing on relays on the V11 Lemans forum. Best are the Omrons sold here:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/omron-electronics-inc-emc-div/G8HE-1C7T-R-DC12/Z5645-ND/2755412
They are inexpensive.
At any rate, give the relay blocks a squirt, too..
I'll bet the above cures it. I would doubt it is a fuel pump unless it is a high mileage bike.
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For some reason the best tool for whacking the fuel pump is a 10 MM combination wrench manufactured in Germany before 1970 , although in a pinch a rock tied to a stick will work .
Dusty
O Gawd, that's funny!
John Henry
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I think a replacement fuel pump is $75. If you've gone through the fuses and relays, this might be the next step.
I had a relay failure on my Sport, it would click but the pump didn't buzz. Replaced them all the relays (BTW- I had already replaced the fuel pump after it stranded me 10 miles from home. Bike had less than 35k miles on it when the fuel pump froze).
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Just unplug it, follow wire up front down tube on frame, may be behind the frame cover in front of tank. All you have to do is unplug it.
Well, you also need to secure it once it's unplugged. Don't let the end hang loose.
The pump is a very common bosch type. If you decide you need a new one, you can find it and clones all over ebay. Most of the pumps that look right are right, except that they can have different spigot arrangements. Select one that has the inlet and outlet you like and go for it.
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Sounds like the pump . Sometimes a good cleaning will prolong their service life .
Dusty
Please explain this "good cleaning".
Gut it and recondition?
Run in reverse?
Properly wax the exterior?
Enquiring minds want to know....
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Please explain this "good cleaning".
Gut it and recondition?
Run in reverse?
Properly wax the exterior?
Enquiring minds want to know....
:laugh: :laugh: OK , that's funny :bow:
What it means is remove the pump , spray some carb cleaner thru it , and either run in reverse in a pan of gasoline (which seems risky to me , but others have done it) , or blow thru it with maybe 15 lbs of air pressure . The pumps gum up , and sometimes a good cleaning helps .
Kiwi Roy , did we ever decide if the sidestand switch disables the starter motor on a '98 model ? Anyone else know for sure ? Pete ?
Dusty
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Clean the fuse connectors and replace the fuses.
Clean the relay connectors and replace the relays. (look for the dpguzzi.com site for good replacements)
It may be the ignition switch.
May be, but less likely to be, the sidestand switch.
Possibly a gummed up pump, though they are pretty reliable. Pour a can of cleaner in the tank and run it.
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I have used some Radio Shack tuner cleaner and diaelectric grease on everything in the fuse box. I changed out relays and fuses yesterday and it starts no problem. I have an eBay fuel pump made in China, it was $29.00. I know, probably junk but better than a dead Bosch one. I still think it's the pump so I'll swap it out and go for a ride.
Ed
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and diaelectric grease on everything in the fuse box
Sadly that is going to ruin a lot of things.
:violent1:
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Sadly that is going to ruin a lot of things.
:violent1:
why is that? I coated (not gooped) the connections in there and in all the plugs throughout the bike. Never caused a problem on a dozen other bikes I've owned. The amount I used isn't going to penetrate the relays.
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Kiwi Roy , did we ever decide if the sidestand switch disables the starter motor on a '98 model ? Anyone else know for sure ? Pete ?
Dusty
Yes it does on the 98 EV
Both the ECU and Start relays are fed from the Stand relay
I will post my Fuse / Relay sketch here next week, I ned a jpeg for that.
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My bike starts with the side stand down or up.
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My bike starts with the side stand down or up.
Might already be disabled , most of them are .
Yes it does on the 98 EV
Both the ECU and Start relays are fed from the Stand relay
I will post my Fuse / Relay sketch here next week, I ned a jpeg for that.
Thanks Roy , kinda thought this was the case , why it was important to know if the starter was turning over . We always get the answer :bow:
Dusty
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My bike starts with the side stand down or up.
most of those bikes have had the side stand switch disconnected.
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The amount I used isn't going to penetrate the relays.
Wayne thinks differently, and has the data to prove it from the relay manufacturer. I had a barn find Strada that went through two owners that couldn't make it run. Every electrical connection was packed with dielectric grease.
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I don't see how the grease could wick up into the relay if you just put a very light coat on the blades. It's not going to interfere with conductivity is it? I pulled a relay out and it's dry, no grease visible. But I could be wrong!
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I don't see how the grease could wick up into the relay if you just put a very light coat on the blades. It's not going to interfere with conductivity is it? I pulled a relay out and it's dry, no grease visible. But I could be wrong!
Wayne needs to explain it. Apparently it can even travel through wiring and give a relay fits. I think he's tired of explaining to non believers, though. :smiley:
At any rate, he says the only place for dielectric grease on your Guzzi is the spark plug boots. Kiwi Roy recommends Vaseline.. another non conductor, but doesn't seem to do any harm.
Edit again:
From Omron..
"3-3 Using Relays in an Atmosphere Containing Corrosive Gas (Silicone, Sulfuric, or Organic Gas), or Near Materials That Contain Silicone
Do not use the Relays in atmospheres that contain silicone gas, sulfidizing gas (e.g., SO2 or H2S), or organic gas, or near materials that contain silicone.
If Relays are stored or used for an extended period of time in an atmosphere of sulfuric gas or organic gas, contact surfaces may become corroded and cause contact instability and obstruction, and terminal soldering characteristics may be degraded.
Also, if a Relay is left or used for an extended period of time in an atmosphere that contains silicone gas, or near materials that contain silicone (e.g., silicone rubber, silicone grease, silicone oil, or silicone coatings), silicone oxide will form on the surface of the contacts, causing contact failure."
Of course, Dielectric is silicone grease. Anything that can arc causes silicon dioxide (from memory, always a dangerous thing with me. ) There are many more, but Wayne's explanation of what can happen sold me.
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The follow-up is that dielectric grease outgasses (evaporates) silicone continuously, and the silicone gas is what penetrates and gets wicked up into everything. Wayne says it can happen from a few feet away. Me, I'll take the precautionary tale and not find out. It's just to easy to avoid.
I'm a big believer in petrojelly though.
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I ride in Central Florida. You will get caught in the rain here and the rest of the time it's 150% humidity. Corrosion is a real issue. I'll take my chances with the grease and silicon gas accumulating under my side panel.
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I ride in Central Florida. You will get caught in the rain here and the rest of the time it's 150% humidity. Corrosion is a real issue. I'll take my chances with the grease and silicon gas accumulating under my side panel.
well, they tried to warn you....
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I ride in Central Florida. You will get caught in the rain here and the rest of the time it's 150% humidity. Corrosion is a real issue. I'll take my chances with the grease and silicon gas accumulating under my side panel.
Just be aware that relay and switch manufacturers warn that the outgassing from dielectric grease and silicones can penetrate even sealed switches and relays at a distance, and damage the contacts.
Another tidbit: http://www.dowcorning.com/content/publishedlit/The_Use_of_Silicone_Materials_in_Close_Proximity.pdf
But, you tried the relays. These are a common failure.
And I believe you say it cranks overs when this happens, so it is NOT the sidestand switch. (that model side stand switch also kills the starter)
So maybe it actually is the pump. Rare, but obviously possible.
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What do the relays control, left to right?
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Horn Relay, Start Relay, Stand Relay, Headlight Relay, ECU Relay. Power Relay
The fuses Left tp Right
Petcock, Park Light (probably tail also), Horn and starter solenoid, Headlight, ECU, Fuel Pump coils and injectors
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Thanks!
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On some 98EV's the position of the ECU relay and Power relay were switched.
Common thought at the time was they had a long lunch break with some extra wine.
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On some 98EV's the position of the ECU relay and Power relay were switched.
Common thought at the time was they had a long lunch break with some extra wine.
From my notes
The wire in ECU relay 97 is Brown and there is also a small wire going to one of the small pins on the power relay
The wires in the ECU Power relay 97 are Purple & Yellow
I'll post my sketch next week
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From my notes
The wire in ECU relay 97 is Brown and there is also a small wire going to one of the small pins on the power relay
The wires in the ECU Power relay 97 are Purple & Yellow
I'll post my sketch next week
So maybe pizza grease instead of dielectric grease is better?
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extra virgin olive oil is the only known substitute BUT only after a thorough cleaning with balsamic vinegar and a wipe down with lettuce.
now quit arguing and trying to out think the experts! clean everything with the deoxit once a year and the problems end.
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I just use some petroleum jelly.
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I just use some petroleum jelly.
You can use it on the bike as well LOL
Gods gift to electrical contacts
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I thought that between gold plating and a contact wiping action at actuation a good relay would outlast me?
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I thought that between gold plating and a contact wiping action at actuation a good relay would outlast me?
Probably will if you don't use dielectric grease on it. :evil: Or around it. :smiley:
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extra virgin olive oil is the only known substitute BUT only after a thorough cleaning with balsamic vinegar and a wipe down with lettuce.
now quit arguing and trying to out think the experts! clean everything with the deoxit once a year and the problems end.
I'm still trying to find out where that extra virgin comes from. Where I come from there are no extras.
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Finally as promised the sketch of the relay and fuse layout
(http://image.ibb.co/b6mbFw/98_EV_Wiring_Sketch.jpg)
Here it is, just took a while, still a work in progress
I did this sketch as a troubleshooting aid first of all for my own use, from under the side-cover you have access to most of the wiring for example you can test the ignition switch is working, make sure the ECU is getting the right signals etc.
Most of the wiring can be by-passed to get you home.
Note I added a main fuse, I highly recommend this for all your old Guzzis, this will prevent the bike catching fire if you get a short.
Sorry about the quality, this one won't print out for me, if you send me your e-mail address in a PM I will get you a better copy
My 98 EV had the old P8 ECU but the 15M has thesame wiring, should also apply to the Jackal.
Note on this 98 EV the four fuses in the middle should all be alive with the key On, there are three feeds from the switch one to fuse 3 & 4 and another to fuse 1 via the kill switch and stand relay
and one to the park light fuse 3. In a pinch a jumper could be used to liven a dead fuse holder
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Was this issue resolved?
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Was this issue resolved?
I had total hip replacement right after this posting so I have not been on the bike. I did put a new fuel pump in it while I'm recovering. I also changed all brake, fuel, and breather noses. Put in a new fuel filter and fixed the low fuel short too. Added a manual petcock and new brake pads, fixed the burned out speedo light, checked all wiring under the tank, added an LED brake/tail light. I'm two weeks out from surgery and so far the hip feels great. I'll get the bike on the road next week. Then I'll try a longer road trip. After doing all this work it fired right up with no leaky lines so it should be good to go.
Ed
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So what did you do on the second day?
Glad the surgery went well! :thumb:
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Doc cleared me to work Dec 1st. I still need to clean out the handlebar switches and lube the cables. And clean out the ignition switch, add auxiliary lights and I'm thinking of adding an oil temp or pressure gauge.
Must make these last days of disability count.
Ed
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I'm glad you are on the road to recovery.
Since you are no longer using the petcock might I point out how the fuse 1 is placed right at a crucial point in the wiring,
I believe the bike loom is made in two parts, the main bike wiring and the engine section spark, injectors and bits that make it go
and they are connected together by the 1 way connector tucked behind the terminal strip.
If you have power at fuse i the bike should run, a small light there will tell you a lot about the health of electrics
You can pretty much troubleshoot the whole bike wiring from under that cover.
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Cranked the bIke up this morning and let it sit there and idle. Then it died and wouldn't crank. Wtf? Oh yeah, open the manual petcock dumbass!
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With efi I leave mine open unless I'm pulling the tank. With the efi you don't get float bowl leaks.
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I'm glad you are on the road to recovery.
Since you are no longer using the petcock might I point out how the fuse 1 is placed right at a crucial point in the wiring,
I believe the bike loom is made in two parts, the main bike wiring and the engine section spark, injectors and bits that make it go
and they are connected together by the 1 way connector tucked behind the terminal strip.
If you have power at fuse i the bike should run, a small light there will tell you a lot about the health of electrics
You can pretty much troubleshoot the whole bike wiring from under that cover.
I have a little LED volt meter. If I hook it up to the petcock wires and turn on the key that tells me the amount the battery output. Better than a light I think. I was going to put it somewhere but since the petcock circuit in in the main run circuit than that output would be a good indicator of the charge, right?
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I have a little LED volt meter. If I hook it up to the petcock wires and turn on the key that tells me the amount the battery output. Better than a light I think. I was going to put it somewhere but since the petcock circuit in in the main run circuit than that output would be a good indicator of the charge, right?
Yep.
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I have a little LED volt meter. If I hook it up to the petcock wires and turn on the key that tells me the amount the battery output. Better than a light I think. I was going to put it somewhere but since the petcock circuit in in the main run circuit than that output would be a good indicator of the charge, right?
Definitely Not
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Definitely Not
Why not? Where should I connect it?
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Why not? Where should I connect it?
What I meant was the meter will not tell you any more than the light, a digital meter is too slow, if you get an erratic circuit the lamp will show it better but that's only my opinion.
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What I meant was the meter will not tell you any more than the light, a digital meter is too slow, if you get an erratic circuit the lamp will show it better but that's only my opinion.
Got it. Thanks