1998 V11 EV fuel pump issue

[Chuck in Indiana]

The amount I used isn't going to penetrate the relays.

Wayne thinks differently, and has the data to prove it from the relay manufacturer. I had a barn find Strada that went through two owners that couldn't make it run. Every electrical connection was packed with dielectric grease.

[Edgo897]

I don't see how the grease could wick up into the relay if you just put a very light coat on the blades. It's not going to interfere with conductivity is it? I pulled a relay out and it's dry, no grease visible. But I could be wrong!

[Chuck in Indiana]

I don't see how the grease could wick up into the relay if you just put a very light coat on the blades. It's not going to interfere with conductivity is it? I pulled a relay out and it's dry, no grease visible. But I could be wrong!

Wayne needs to explain it. Apparently it can even travel through wiring and give a relay fits. I think he's tired of explaining to non believers, though. 
At any rate, he says the only place for dielectric grease on your Guzzi is the spark plug boots. Kiwi Roy recommends Vaseline.. another non conductor, but doesn't seem to do any harm.
Edit again:
From Omron..
"3-3 Using Relays in an Atmosphere Containing Corrosive Gas (Silicone, Sulfuric, or Organic Gas), or Near Materials That Contain Silicone

Do not use the Relays in atmospheres that contain silicone gas, sulfidizing gas (e.g., SO2 or H2S), or organic gas, or near materials that contain silicone.
If Relays are stored or used for an extended period of time in an atmosphere of sulfuric gas or organic gas, contact surfaces may become corroded and cause contact instability and obstruction, and terminal soldering characteristics may be degraded.
Also, if a Relay is left or used for an extended period of time in an atmosphere that contains silicone gas, or near materials that contain silicone (e.g., silicone rubber, silicone grease, silicone oil, or silicone coatings), silicone oxide will form on the surface of the contacts, causing contact failure."

Of course, Dielectric is silicone grease. Anything that can arc causes silicon dioxide (from memory, always a dangerous thing with me. ) There are many more, but Wayne's explanation of what can happen sold me.

[rodekyll]

The follow-up is that dielectric grease outgasses (evaporates) silicone continuously, and the silicone gas is what penetrates and gets wicked up into everything.  Wayne says it can happen from a few feet away.  Me, I'll take the precautionary tale and not find out.  It's just to easy to avoid.

I'm a big believer in petrojelly though.

[Edgo897]

I ride in Central Florida. You will get caught in the rain here and the rest of the time it's 150% humidity. Corrosion is a real issue. I'll take my chances with the grease and silicon gas accumulating under my side panel.

[fotoguzzi]

I ride in Central Florida. You will get caught in the rain here and the rest of the time it's 150% humidity. Corrosion is a real issue. I'll take my chances with the grease and silicon gas accumulating under my side panel.

well, they tried to warn you....

[Wayne Orwig]

I ride in Central Florida. You will get caught in the rain here and the rest of the time it's 150% humidity. Corrosion is a real issue. I'll take my chances with the grease and silicon gas accumulating under my side panel.

Just be aware that relay and switch manufacturers warn that the outgassing from dielectric grease and silicones can penetrate even sealed switches and relays at a distance, and damage the contacts.
Another tidbit: http://www.dowcorning.com/content/publishedlit/The_Use_of_Silicone_Materials_in_Close_Proximity.pdf
 
But, you tried the relays. These are a common failure.
And I believe you say it cranks overs when this happens, so it is NOT the sidestand switch. (that model side stand switch also kills the starter)

So maybe it actually is the pump. Rare, but obviously possible.

[Edgo897]

What do the relays control, left to right?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Horn Relay, Start Relay, Stand Relay, Headlight Relay, ECU Relay. Power Relay

The fuses Left tp Right
Petcock, Park Light (probably tail also), Horn and starter solenoid, Headlight, ECU, Fuel Pump coils and injectors

[Edgo897]

Thanks!

[JoeB]

On some 98EV's the position of the ECU relay and Power relay were switched.
Common thought at the time was they had a long lunch break with some extra wine.

[Kiwi_Roy]

On some 98EV's the position of the ECU relay and Power relay were switched.
Common thought at the time was they had a long lunch break with some extra wine.

From my notes
The wire in ECU relay 97 is Brown and there is also a small wire going to one of the small pins on the power relay
The wires in the ECU Power relay 97 are Purple & Yellow

I'll post my sketch next week

[Edgo897]

From my notes
The wire in ECU relay 97 is Brown and there is also a small wire going to one of the small pins on the power relay
The wires in the ECU Power relay 97 are Purple & Yellow

I'll post my sketch next week

So maybe pizza grease instead of dielectric grease is better?

[Vagrant]

extra virgin olive oil is the only known substitute BUT only after a thorough cleaning with balsamic vinegar and a wipe down with lettuce.
now quit arguing and trying to out think the experts! clean everything with the deoxit once a year and the problems end.

[guzzisteve]

I just use some petroleum jelly. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

I just use some petroleum jelly.

You can use it on the bike as well LOL

Gods gift to electrical contacts

[n3303j]

I thought that between gold plating and a contact wiping action at actuation a good relay would outlast me?

[Chuck in Indiana]

I thought that between gold plating and a contact wiping action at actuation a good relay would outlast me?

Probably will if you don't use dielectric grease on it.  Or around it. 

[rodekyll]

extra virgin olive oil is the only known substitute BUT only after a thorough cleaning with balsamic vinegar and a wipe down with lettuce.
now quit arguing and trying to out think the experts! clean everything with the deoxit once a year and the problems end.

I'm still trying to find out where that extra virgin comes from.  Where I come from there are no extras.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Finally as promised the sketch of the relay and fuse layout



Here it is, just took a while, still a work in progress
I did this sketch as a troubleshooting aid first of all for my own use, from under the side-cover you have access to most of the wiring for example you can test the ignition switch is working, make sure the ECU is getting the right signals etc.
Most of the wiring can be by-passed to get you home.
Note I added a main fuse, I highly recommend this for all your old Guzzis, this will prevent the bike catching fire if you get a short.
Sorry about the quality, this one won't print out for me, if you send me your e-mail address in a PM I will get you a better copy
My 98 EV had the old P8 ECU but the 15M has thesame wiring, should also apply to the Jackal.

Note on this 98 EV the four fuses in the middle should all be alive with the key On, there are three feeds from the switch one to fuse 3 & 4 and another to fuse 1 via the kill switch and stand relay
and one to the park light fuse 3. In a pinch a jumper could be used to liven a dead fuse holder

[Ted N]

Was this issue resolved?

[Edgo897]

Was this issue resolved?

I had total hip replacement right after this posting so I have not been on the bike. I did put a new fuel pump in it while I'm recovering. I also changed all brake, fuel, and breather noses. Put in a new fuel filter and fixed the low fuel short too. Added a manual petcock and new brake pads, fixed the burned out speedo light, checked all wiring under the tank, added an LED brake/tail light. I'm two weeks out from surgery and so far the hip feels great. I'll get the bike on the road next week. Then I'll try a longer road trip. After doing all this work it fired right up with no leaky lines so it should be good to go.

Ed

[rodekyll]

So what did you do on the second day?



Glad the surgery went well!   

[Edgo897]

Doc cleared me to work Dec 1st. I still need to clean out the handlebar switches and lube the cables. And clean out the ignition switch, add auxiliary lights and I'm thinking of adding an oil temp or pressure gauge.

Must make these last days of disability count.

Ed

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'm glad you are on the road to recovery.

Since you are no longer using the petcock might I point out how the fuse 1 is placed right at a crucial point in the wiring,
I believe the bike loom is made in two parts, the main bike wiring and the engine section spark, injectors and bits that make it go
and they are connected together by the 1 way connector tucked behind the terminal strip.

If you have power at fuse i the bike should run, a small light there will tell you a lot about the health of electrics
You can pretty much troubleshoot the whole bike wiring from under that cover.

[Edgo897]

Cranked the bIke up this morning and let it sit there and idle. Then it died and wouldn't crank. Wtf? Oh yeah, open the manual petcock dumbass!

[rodekyll]

With efi I leave mine open unless I'm pulling the tank.  With the efi you don't get float bowl leaks.

[Edgo897]

I'm glad you are on the road to recovery.

Since you are no longer using the petcock might I point out how the fuse 1 is placed right at a crucial point in the wiring,
I believe the bike loom is made in two parts, the main bike wiring and the engine section spark, injectors and bits that make it go
and they are connected together by the 1 way connector tucked behind the terminal strip.

If you have power at fuse i the bike should run, a small light there will tell you a lot about the health of electrics
You can pretty much troubleshoot the whole bike wiring from under that cover.

I have a little LED volt meter. If I hook it up to the petcock wires and turn on the key that tells me the amount the battery output.  Better than a light I think. I was going to put it somewhere but since the petcock circuit in in the main run circuit than that output would be a good indicator of the charge, right?

[Chuck in Indiana]

I have a little LED volt meter. If I hook it up to the petcock wires and turn on the key that tells me the amount the battery output.  Better than a light I think. I was going to put it somewhere but since the petcock circuit in in the main run circuit than that output would be a good indicator of the charge, right?

Yep.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have a little LED volt meter. If I hook it up to the petcock wires and turn on the key that tells me the amount the battery output.  Better than a light I think. I was going to put it somewhere but since the petcock circuit in in the main run circuit than that output would be a good indicator of the charge, right?

Definitely Not