Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Simon_London on December 28, 2017, 12:36:22 PM
-
Comments from the Guzzi elder statesman?
https://tinyurl.com/yb6qwuux
https://www.sinrojamotorcycles.co.uk/aboutpulsejet
-
They look exactly like the "anti-fouling" inserts that we used to screw into the heads of old Ford and Farmall tractors with bad rings that were burning so much oil that they were fouling plugs! These things kept the oil off of the electrodes so they would run longer without fouling .... !
Lannis
-
For 10% more vs. the cost. Not worth it to me especially with the fleet. Over $2500 USD for me. :tongue: Looks promising to squeeze the final performance out a big twin but if I wanted more, I'd ride 4 cylinder.
-
It has some vaguely similar characteristics to the CVCC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CVCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CVCC) )combustion technique used in Honda cars in the 1970s - basically, achieving higher burn efficiency by introducing ignition prior to the main chamber and using the burn itself to create turbulence and more complete use of the fuel charge. Whether this would lead to a true increase in power would be questionable, though I'd note that Honda's 1500cc Civic CVCC was introduced as a sportier version of their (then) 1300cc Civic hatchback.
While this technology was effective in designs using carbs of the time, it was surpassed by the introduction of sophisticated fuel injection. As noted in the link, later variations were tried and abandoned.
I have no idea whether this particular variant would be more advanced than that tried in the earlier designs.
-
Given the price it would be cheaper to make them yourself if you have a lathe. A tap and die plus hex stock would not cost close to that much.
Pete
-
Interesting similar principle to Honda CvCC.
For me, if these really can significantly improve how the bike runs I think they are a bargain.
A Plug and play 10% increase in power for �100 is a tuners dream. I don't think these can just be knocked up on a lathe unless you had one to copy maybe - they have been developed.
I cleaned all the contacts in the charging system of my Tonti and was surprised how much better it ran - due to the improved spark.
I now understand why people go to the trouble of twin plugging - way more expensive.
-
my comment is you should have used a tinyurl for that enormous link, my screen not that wide and it stretches out all the reply's too.
https://tinyurl.com/
-
There you go....
-
Color me doubtful . This reminds me of those little plastic propeller thingies that were to be placed in the intake tracts of motorcycle engines that claimed to increase power . Turns out they were basically the blades from little computer cooling fans and did nothing .
Dusty
-
You guy's really know how to poke the bear. Looking forward to some expletives from down under. :popcorn:
-
I remember the swirly tin plates called Swarup, that were supposed to swirl the intake gases for better combustion. It was placed between the carb and cylinder, odd that they even claimed that for 2-strokes where the charge was running rampant through the cylinders anyway. These things do look vaguely like the old plug extensions claimed to eliminate fouling. Looks like the ones pictured would extend into the combustion chamber a bit far.
-
so the idea is that with this mod the plug now fires within the tiny chamber on the end of the plug which causes extra turbulence and then the explosion exits via the little holes and fills out the rest of the combustion chamber quicker than it would normally?
my questions would be
is that possible?
will it really clear the top of the piston?
Has anyone heard of the guy that's making them?
-
Mazda's chasing my Skyactiv-G with the new Skyactiv-X in order to save the IC gas engine from regulatory doom.
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-s-holy-grail-of-gasoline-engines-is-completely-1801820285
-
Like a lot of other kid gimmicks after you spend the money you talk yourself into believing the mechine runs faster, smoother, cooler, cleaner etc, of of which makes one feel less stupid for throwing away the bucks for little or no gains. How do I know this, well........ don’t ask:)
-
The ad is hilarious , comparing this nonsense to what f1 engines use . Yeah , it's the same , only , well , it isn't . F1 engines employ 2 spark plugs per cylinder , and on does fire just slightly before the other , all controlled by a sophisticated ECU , this guy is simply lying . Fact is , internal combustion relies on turbulence to complete burning the mixture , if I am reading his claims correctly , he is stating this reduces turbulence . What a load of horse manure .
Dusty
-
Mazda's chasing my Skyactiv-G with the new Skyactiv-X in order to save the IC gas engine from regulatory doom.
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-s-holy-grail-of-gasoline-engines-is-completely-1801820285
The Mazda development is certainly worth watching, but no one is coming to market with stuff that significantly changes the underlying mechanical complexity of the internal combustion engine. Direct injection is a small but worthy start.
I look to something that's been evolving in Formula 1 and other high technology engines for quite some time, even before the current hybrid designs. Start counting how many moving parts - and how much mechanical drag, weight, and complexity - could be achieved by using valves that are electromagnetically or pneumatically opened and closed. No springs (or at least minimal ones to close valves when the engine is shut down). Eventually, no camshafts and no systems to drive them (though these are still used today in F1). We're halfway there now (closing, not opening), why not focus on getting rid of all the mechanical clutter (and clatter!) inherent in a design that hasn't changed for a century? It might help engines approach the efficiency and output of more efficient designs that aren't well suited to ground vehicles.
-
On my Convert with points ignition I just increase the tension on the rotor button screw. It has the same result.
-
Snake oil.
Since time immoral, slick-talking hucksters have been pimping horsepower/mileage dreams to young men in order to separate them from their money...
Spend your money on routine maintainence.
-
SplitFire spark plugs. :azn:
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/1997/02/splitfire-settles-ftc-charges-economy-efficiency-claims-are
-
If I'm reading this correctly the idea is that the spark ignites the mixture in the little chamber with the holes in and then jets of flame, (Who doesn't like a good jet of flame?) will shoot out of the little holes and cause wonderful things to happen?
OK, so riddle me this. How does the end gas get flushed out of the little chamber and what will promote the fresh charge to enter it? Secondly what are the miraculous abilities of this system to promote a better burn?
I detect a smell of burning underpants!
-
:grin: :1:
-
https://www.nature.com/articles/311738a0
https://www.google.com/patents/US4354136
-
Neither of which answer the questions I put.
-
They look exactly like the "anti-fouling" inserts that we used to screw into the heads of old Ford and Farmall tractors with bad rings that were burning so much oil that they were fouling plugs! These things kept the oil off of the electrodes so they would run longer without fouling .... !
Lannis
This is what I get out of it, B S. It's the 'Pilot Lite Theory'.
-
No Pete, it doesn't answer your questions but it shows that there has been serious research done by among others Nissan who have a patent.
I don't known what, if any real world benefits there are to this mod, but it's interesting and I might give it a go and dyno it.
I have to add, not aimed at you in particular Pete, this forum is a great place to seek advice but there are always a fair number of curmudgeonly responses.
-
It would be interesting if you do take the challenge and dyno it, simply to see the results versus their dyno charts. :popcorn:
Paul B :boozing:
-
:1:
-
I have to add, not aimed at you in particular Pete, this forum is a great place to seek advice but there are always a fair number of curmudgeonly responses.
Perhaps because there are a fair number of people who have a pretty good understanding of the workings of spark ignited internal combustion engines and can spot snake oil from a mile off.
If you want to improve thermal efficiency this isn't the way to do it. It will do absolutely nothing for either volumetric or mechanical efficiency.
-
No Pete, it doesn't answer your questions but it shows that there has been serious research done by among others Nissan who have a patent.
I don't known what, if any real world benefits there are to this mod, but it's interesting and I might give it a go and dyno it.
I have to add, not aimed at you in particular Pete, this forum is a great place to seek advice but there are always a fair number of curmudgeonly responses.
Please do Dyno it Simon, i personally would love to get 10% more horsepower for that amount of money!
-
I wouldn't spend a nickel on these without evidence and experience from somebody other than the vendor. That said, spark plug configuration can make a difference in some cases, for example Autolite 3923 plugs used on BMW R1100 engines to improve their decade long lean surge issue.
-
I have to add this forum is a great place to seek advice but there are always a fair number of curmudgeonly responses.
Well, we have our fair share of curmudgeons (including me!) :grin:
-
The reason why I linked the Mazda article is that the description of this pulse jet sounded familiar to part of what they are doing:
"What Mazda has done to solve these problems is devise a system called Spark Controlled Compression Ignition, SPCCI, a strategy in which a spark plug creates a “fire ball,” which acts to compress the homogeneous mixture of air/inert EGR gases and fuel to incite compression ignition.
The spark plug itself isn’t able to create this fireball with a lean mixture. So what Mazda has done is positioned a fuel injector close to the plug. That high-pressure injector initially shoots small amounts of fuel into the cylinder during the intake stroke.
That fuel mixes with a cyclone of air from the intake (which is fed from a supercharger and cooled EGR—both of which can be precisely controlled) to create a homogeneous lean mixture around the periphery.
During the compression stroke, a certain amount of fuel is injected into the “eye” of the lean vortex (an amount based on engine load), and spark is precisely timed to light the rich fireball, which then ignites the lean mixture around it—and voila! you have compression ignition. (Note that this late injection of fuel during the compression stroke is Mazda’s way of preventing preignition; to accomplish this requires a high-pressure injection system.)"
-
Hmmm, anything is possible...but unlikely from this trick spark plug ........The article has this bit of info that has more effect on performance than a spark plug
The first modification we tried was to twin spark the cylinder heads, this gave an improvement in performance and reduced the E.G.T's, but not by enough, back to the drawing board. Our conclusion was that there wasn't enough T.D.C. turbulence (squish) to propagate the flame, we increased this which also had a benefit, but not enough. The problem with squish as a flame propagator is that the spark initiates the burn some 30 degrees before T.D.C.
-
I found a paper on this topic, the purpose was to allow leaner burn mixtures and still get good ignition, they didn't talk about power increases, but what they said was (paraphrasing) igniting the mixture in a small compartment was easier and then the flame propagates out into the larger cylinder. It was about using leaner mixtures. Who knows, I think some enterprising chap should buy some and do a dyno test.
-
I had a chat with the 'inventor' Steve Scriminger. Thoroughly nice chap.
He says they have sold hundreds with no complaints including extensive racing use.
Developed for BMW boxer engines which makes them very compatible with Guzzis.
Steve explained that you wont notice much benefit if you just chug about at low revs as the improvement only kicks in at 4000 revs and above
Steve is actually going to give me a set for free and I am going to get a dyno comparison.
Will let you know.
-
I had a chat with the 'inventor' Steve Scriminger. Thoroughly nice chap.
Steve is actually going to give me a set for free and I am going to get a dyno comparison.
That speaks well of him, and we'll all (even us curmudgeons!) be interested in the results...
-
I wonder if you have to adjust the timing
-
I am hoping that as my bike is a small valve low compression G5 (HMB fast road cam, ported, 36mm carbs, 1100 sport flywheel) there wont be any pinking.
-
Riding a stock Moto Guzzi with a heavy flywheel 4K rpms or more will yield different results for most Guzzi riders. The experienced Guzzi riders already spin the engine up in that rpm range. Doesn't sound like the increase would be worth the expense. Usable power is what the Guzzi engines are all about. 10% for me wouldn't be noticeable. Cruise between 4-5K rpms and shift at above 5K around 5500 rpms. I think you'll see on a 5 speed bike like your G5 that 10% won't make a difference either.
What rev's do you shift at? and do you cruise between 4K and 5K rpms?
-
Tom my bike gets a damn good thrashing on a reg basis but will also pootle about quite happily. It has a light flywheel so likes to rev.
I take your point that if the alleged extra 10% happens only at 7800 revs it wont be much use, but I'm feeling optimistic !
(http://thumb.ibb.co/nCH5gb/DSC_1204.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nCH5gb)
-
The ad is hilarious , comparing this nonsense to what f1 engines use . Yeah , it's the same , only , well , it isn't . F1 engines employ 2 spark plugs per cylinder , and on does fire just slightly before the other , all controlled by a sophisticated ECU , this guy is simply lying . Fact is , internal combustion relies on turbulence to complete burning the mixture , if I am reading his claims correctly , he is stating this reduces turbulence . What a load of horse manure .
Dusty
Unfortunately Dusty you are wrong.
See this https://youtu.be/L2Qv6wdZ9f4 (https://youtu.be/L2Qv6wdZ9f4)
Funny how old fashion can be the way of the future, you can expect to see many cars runny this in the near future.
Adam
-
Tom my bike gets a damn good thrashing on a reg basis but will also pootle about quite happily. It has a light flywheel so likes to rev.
I take your point that if the alleged extra 10% happens only at 7800 revs it wont be much use, but I'm feeling optimistic !
(http://thumb.ibb.co/nCH5gb/DSC_1204.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nCH5gb)
Okay. Didn't know what you were riding or if you "nail" it. :grin: My guess is that you'll see better results off the dyno than actually the seat dyno. Good luck with the project. :thumb: I like your bike enough to have one in the fleet. :azn:
-
Unfortunately Dusty you are wrong.
See this https://youtu.be/L2Qv6wdZ9f4 (https://youtu.be/L2Qv6wdZ9f4)
Funny how old fashion can be the way of the future, you can expect to see many cars runny this in the near future.
Adam
OK , so they have gone back to a single central sparking plug , but the real trick there is the fuel injection giving one small pulse , then a larger pulse that is ignited by the already burning initial fuel pulse . Moto Guzzi ECU's won't deliver two fuel pulses , and certainly older carbed bikes are incapable of doing so .
Dusty
-
I had a chat with the 'inventor' Steve Scriminger. Thoroughly nice chap.
He says they have sold hundreds with no complaints including extensive racing use.
Developed for BMW boxer engines which makes them very compatible with Guzzis.
Steve explained that you wont notice much benefit if you just chug about at low revs as the improvement only kicks in at 4000 revs and above
Steve is actually going to give me a set for free and I am going to get a dyno comparison.
Will let you know.
this speaks volumes.
very happy to give the free plugs a spin in my 1000 lemans on a dyno (in the interests of research) if your tests prove inconclusive.
FWIW don't think I 've ever run my lemans at less than 4k except on start-up :evil:
-
I wonder how much performance I would gain with these Pulse jets + a Fish carburetor?
I was thinking about my Guzzi but what about a Corvette? :copcar:
-
lazlokovacs. So, you think you'd notice a 10% increase in horse power? or would a 10% increase in torque be more noticeable?
-
I wonder how much performance I would gain with these Pulse jets + a Fish carburetor?
I was thinking about my Guzzi but what about a Corvette? :copcar:
10,000 HP and 50 MPG , easy :rolleyes:
Dusty
-
two words:
Bonneville, baby!
-
I'd love to see Cycle World get a hold of this, hand it off to Kevin Cameron, and have him do an analysis and/or test.
His articles generally tell you where every molecule of fuel and air is flowing and swirling through the intakes past the valves, and what the flamefront looks like in the cylinder at various RPMs, and exactly how much of the exhaust gas goes where ....
Just a bit hard to believe that after a designer and manufacturer goes through everything they go through to get flow and spark and all JUST right, cheering over every fraction of a percent that they gain, that a simple screw-in thingie will suddenly add 10% to the performance. Unless maybe it results in illegal emissions results that the manufacturer can't consider but an aftermarket maker can ... ? (cf. custom exhausts, charcoal canisters, etc).
Lannis
-
Nissan patent was from late 70's, if still not used by now means it's BS.
-
Since time immoral, slick-talking hucksters
Immortal or immemorial,,,
(Speaking of slick talking)
-
Tom my bike gets a damn good thrashing on a reg basis but will also pootle about quite happily. It has a light flywheel so likes to rev.
I take your point that if the alleged extra 10% happens only at 7800 revs it wont be much use, but I'm feeling optimistic !
(http://thumb.ibb.co/nCH5gb/DSC_1204.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nCH5gb)
Beautiful red wire wheeled Guzzi.
Any chance of a few shots for me to take to bed on a cold night with my torch !!! :drool:
-
Thank you Huzo. Ok then....
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dDjgnG/DSC_0612.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dDjgnG)
-
Thank you Huzo. Ok then....
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dDjgnG/DSC_0612.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dDjgnG)
Shit...!
Is that all ! Come on you must have more, I was thinking to print one off but I don't know where to put the staple... :drool:
-
Ok here's some hardcore
(http://thumb.ibb.co/j6itZw/DSC_0988.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j6itZw)
how to post a picture in a forum online site (http://imgbb.com/)
-
filthy
:laugh:
-
Steve Scriminger is a good engineer with a lot of experience of tuning BMW twins......so the results will be interesting. And he has the use of a dyno.
The airhead BMs all came with single plug ignitions and a common mod is to twin plug them. A little more power but the real gain is they run sweeter. Steve did that mod to my R80R many years ago, and my current R100R is also twin plugged. The single plugged heads did not give an efficient burn. When twin plugging the ignition has to be retarded as the twin flame fronts eat the mixture quicker.
I wonder if this device would effectively replicate twin plugging a single plugged engine? It would be a lot cheaper than twin plugging.
Andy1
-
My thoughts also Andy
-
I found a paper on this topic, the purpose was to allow leaner burn mixtures and still get good ignition, they didn't talk about power increases, but what they said was (paraphrasing) igniting the mixture in a small compartment was easier and then the flame propagates out into the larger cylinder. It was about using leaner mixtures. Who knows, I think some enterprising chap should buy some and do a dyno test.
I may have this completely wrong as I am not conversant with the latest technology on IC engines.
Is the whole idea of burning the mixture in a small space then allowing it to propagate to large one not a form of stratified charge, developed by Harry Ricardo. Used in many diesels and the Rolls Royce Crecy.
I'm having a problem seeing how this particular example would work, but I'd love to hear what Simon has to say when he tests them.
Is it not a one off purchase after which you just swap the cone and screw it into another plug?
Sure it's not cheap for what it is, but if it works or mimics twin plugging then it becomes a steal compared with the cost and aggravation of modding for dual plugs
:popcorn:
-
I'm going to stay with the magnets on my fuel line. Proven performance gains.
:boozing:
-
(https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/snake-oil-ad.jpg)
-
While you are at it, plumb in one of these! https://www.ebay.com/i/112479650243?chn=ps (https://www.ebay.com/i/112479650243?chn=ps) Hayabusas... look out!
-
(https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/snake-oil-ad.jpg)
If they'd used correct spelling in linament, I might have bought some !
-
They did, so now you have to buy some!
liniment | ˈlinəmənt |
noun
a liquid or lotion, especially one made with oil, for rubbing on the body to relieve pain.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liniment
-
While you are at it, plumb in one of these! https://www.ebay.com/i/112479650243?chn=ps (https://www.ebay.com/i/112479650243?chn=ps) Hayabusas... look out!
I just looked at that. Notice that, (As of when I looked.) 71 people were 'Watching' that item. It gives me great gratification to find out via the interwebs there are actually 71 people in the world stupider than me!
So much win!
Pete