Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bpreynolds on June 06, 2018, 08:36:10 AM
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Inspired by the recent V9 thread. :evil:
I lov�em but why are they still not around? And I guess I would say it�s not because of a Dcotor Evil master plan at Piaggio or Guzzi to steer the brand in a direction many others (not me) on this board say is boring, lackluster, or unGuzzi like so to speak; rather, it�s way more simple than that I suspect. They are not around because folks didn�t buy them. But hey, I�m not above being wrong, clearly, so convince me otherwise. In the meantime, why didn�t folks buy them?
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The flat tappet fiasco poisoned the CARC well. MG obviously didn’t learn their lesson from the Hydro motor fiasco and chose to do a repeat.
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It's a good question....would be nice to know what were the expected sales projections Guzzi had when they first launched, and did the final volumes get close to those initial figures.
Approx 10 years of CARC bikes was a decent run time wise, I wouldn't discount that another variant comes out again.
Maybe not exactly the CARC design, but is there any doubt Guzzis will always be shaft drive but in a different flavor?
Meanwhile...CARC bikes are going for very reasonable prices and they seem to be virtually indestructible...
Are you really thinking about getting a Griso again? :thumb: :thumb:
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Are you really thinking about getting a Griso again? :thumb: :thumb:
Check my signature, I already did :thumb: :grin:
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My dealer's answer to this question was that the CARC bikes did not meet EU4 emissions standards.
10 years is a good run. Yes, the early models had issues butt the later models were bullet proof.
My '16 Stelvio isn't going anywhere without me on it!
The drive train is by far the best all around of many motorcycles ibe owned.
I'll be grabbing a Griso as soon as funds allow. :cool:
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The flat tappet fiasco poisoned the CARC well. MG obviously didn't�t learn their lesson from the Hydro motor fiasco and chose to do a repeat.
Wrong. The CARC bikes didn't sell in high numbers prior to the tappet issue. But by the time the tappet issue really became somewhat well known, the writing was already on the wall. They had a run fo over a decade, that's not bad. They couldn't meet EU4 emissions, Piaggio figured the cost of doing so didn't make sense.
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Didn’t they sell the CARC patent to BMW?
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EU requiring ABS was one more strike against Griso. While other CARC models got ABS, it seems they were unable to find a spot to hide the hardware on Griso.
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The flat tappet fiasco poisoned the CARC well. MG obviously didn�t learn their lesson from the Hydro motor fiasco and chose to do a repeat.
Don't think so. There are a LOT of two valve CARC bikes out there.
And the four valve lives on in the 1400 Cali.
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The original Breva 1100 was a relatively uninspired Piaggio copy of the R1150R BMW and shortly after introduction BMW introduced the R1200R that outclassed it. The big Breva and all its direct descendants became a bit player in the market from that point on.
The Griso was an Aprillia re-pop of the Guzzi-developed Centauro concept, I think a better idea to promote Moto Guzzi as a brand than the Breva etc, but as others have mentioned the legal constraints killed it. I suspect that Piaggio may attempt a third version of the same concept as despite BMW returning the favor and copying the Griso, Guzzi was the original and that serves the brand.
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Check my signature, I already did :thumb: :grin:
Most excellent! Welcome back to Griso land!! :)
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1. Unknown brand to outsiders. Those that knew Guzzi bought them, although appears in small numbers, that isn't a large demographic.
2. Small dealer network and not really advertised (see #1).
3. Reputation for needing "sorted" before being reliable, with a couple now well known "catastrophic" issues that got expensive to overcome.
4. During the main time frame the full line was offered, 2009 to 2016, the customer cruiser phase was in full swing, ST bikes (Norge)small fading niche, naked sports (Breva and Griso) not taken off yet, and only ADV bikes (Stelvio) were in phase with the market swings.
Those that rode them for more than a short test ride usually connected to the bikes and bonded well. I bought two and really liked them both. Small issues were an annoyance, but major ones killed the deal (Dash failures). Absolutely no regrets riding CARC bikes for the few years I had them. In the end, I didn't want the sorting exercise of getting a new bike reliable and went another direction.
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Here's a question for ye... I've noticed that emissions have been mentioned as a reason CARC bikes didn't/won't/can't sell.
I'm not sure I understand if that means that you cannot use the CARC design on newer 8v versions of the Guzzi engine, or was if it was coincidental timing for emissions standards and also the time was up for the CARC rear drive design?
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I think they were required to met Euro 4 standards at least for bikes sold there. That meant abs and noise/emissions upgrades. I suspect that's why 2017 Griso's magically showed up in the US but not in Europe.
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I just got home from the local Moto Guzzi dealer. I was looking at their last Griso and I put an eyeball on the V7 & V9 bikes. The Griso is a whole lot sexier than the V7 & V9 bikes. But they did have last year‘s V9 in black with the yellow graphics, I guess it’s a bobber, and that did look pretty darn good in person. But the lack of power regarding the V7 & V9 bikes is definitely a deal killer for me. The Griso is just so sexy looking. Even in silver! If they built a modern-day MGS-01 with Griso-like ergonomics.....id be all over it!!!!
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So without producting a treatise here, what does one mean when they say “couldn’t meet emisions standards”? I have always just wrongly (I guess) assumed this had to do specifically with efficiency in some way. And also, it seems like other manufacturers have developed their big blocks into Euro compliant. Why not Guzzi? From what I’m reading here in responses maybe the bikes weren’t selling enough for Guzzi to invest to do this?
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Air-cooled engines = big investment in R&D for emissions-compliance...that's what killed the VW Beetle...better to start with clean slate than modify existing designs...
More info here:
http://www.therideadvice.com/why-the-future-of-air-cooled-engines-isnt-too-hot/
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I just got home from the local Moto Guzzi dealer.
What is this “dealer” of which you speak? Did you ride there on a unicorn?
No dealers=no sales. Piaggio has been notoriously difficult for dealers compared to other brands. Not specific to CARCs, but Guzzi has next to no footprint.
The CARCs are great bikes IMO, I love mine. As mentioned before they had a good run. As soon as my wife’s not looking :thewife: I’ll be looking for another one while they are available in good nick.
You either will go out of your way for a Guzzi or you won’t, Piaggio careth not.
Hunter
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What is this “dealer” of which you speak? Did you ride there on a unicorn?
No dealers=no sales. Piaggio has been notoriously difficult for dealers compared to other brands. Not specific to CARCs, but Guzzi has next to no footprint.
The CARCs are great bikes IMO, I love mine. As mentioned before they had a good run. As soon as my wife’s not looking :thewife: I’ll be looking for another one while they are available in good nick.
You either will go out of your way for a Guzzi or you won’t, Piaggio careth not.
Hunter
They are not a ”REAL” Moto Guzzi dealer. They are a European multi line dealer located in northern Illinois. No unicorn ridden...just my work truck. The “other” Guzzi dealer in my area just gave-up ticket. Not much dealer support here in Illinois !
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One of the biggest problems faced by the CARC bikes was the fact they offered truly modern rear, and in some cases front, suspension and didn�t look like a motorbike from the middle of the 20th century. The advent of the 8V donk compounded the issue because all the beetle-browed traditionalists lost their minds because the cams were in the heads and it had more than two valves per cylinder! The myth was created that the new motor was �Complicated� so traditional Guzzi owners didn�t buy them and the vast majority of the motorcycling population hardly know what a Guzzi is and wouldn�t buy one anyway!
The end result has been a pusillanimous retreat into designs of great mediocrity. Oddly enough they aren�t selling either.
Oh well, it was wonderful while it lasted for those of us who aren�t wedded to the past.
Pete
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It seems to me that the models that were killed off are those with the 5AM ECU. Perhaps this was incapable of ABS (but the Norge has ABS) and/or traction control. Why didn't they just update their ECU/Dashboard like they did with the V7-III and the 1400 series? Seems to me they left a helluva gap in their range.
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Stelvio has both ABS and TC, albeit primitive.
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I’ll admit that I am really, really late to the whole Moto Guzzi thing. Spring of 2017 I went to the dealer to look at adventure bikes and saw the Stelvio. I had an Arlen Ness Victory Vision in mind, because I’ve always enjoyed the 2009, 2010 models. So I had to decide between the Stelvio and the Vision. The Stelvio was new to me and the Vision was a bike I had been desiring for a very long time. So I chose the Vision. Since then, I’ve been reading everything I could get my hands on about Moto Guzzi. I really like the Stelvio, but the Griso is so darn sexy. I was waiting for my raise at work before I went shopping. The Rossi Red Griso is gone. And all they have left is the silver Griso. I’m not a big fan of silver. Too bad they’re gone.
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One of the biggest problems faced by the CARC bikes was the fact they offered truly modern rear, and in some cases front, suspension and didn�t look like a motorbike from the middle of the 20th century.
So Guzzi was too forward thinking on their designs on the CARC bikes and too backwards thinking on their current line up? Somewhere in the middle of the road design needed then? Wouldn�t that suggest that bringing back the CARC styles bikes would sell well now then?
That�s a puzzle ...
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Were they a failure? They were phased out due to Euro emissions requirements. I see a lot of secondhand Breva's and Norge's both on Craigslist and trade-ins at dealers. The model run lasted ten years. I just did a quick search on Craigslist in the Northeast area and there are four V7's but there are eight CARC bikes so SOMEONE bought them. Most have a decent number of miles so the owners liked them enough to ride for a while.
I dunno, I happened to love the 1200 2 valve. I liked it better than the 8 valve. I also liked the CARC drive system but it had to be expensive to produce compared to the V7. I thought the suspension on the Sport was pretty good. I thought the suspension on the Griso was great. Both suspensions were a helluva lot better than the V7's or the new California.
The CARC bikes sold in enough numbers to see them riding around. They had decent suspensions, good engines(besides the 8 valve fiasco), good brakes and were produced for over ten years. They were phased out after ten years. I can't see how they were a failure.
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I believe Guzzi. with the CARC bikes, built a family of motorcycles designed to directly compete with contemporary BMW models. I don't think they missed the mark by much. But from a marketing, support, and promotional standpoint, I believe they missed it by a mile. IF their dealer network had been in place, Guzzi could have marketed their bikes really hard against the comparable BMW models. But it wasn't, and that was probably apparent to Beemer riders who considered either switching to Guzzi, or at least adding one to the stable, and said 'thanks, but no thanks.'
OK, so as a motorcycle manufacturer, Guzzi could offer Italian bikes that competed favorably with those from BMW. Perhaps they were a bit heavier, and lacked the level of dealer support offered by BMW. But the basic bikes hit the mark. And were generally less expensive.
The Norge is/was a lovely competitor against the RT in its several iterations ...... at least during the 1100, 1150 era. The Stelvio likewise ..... I've talked to a couple of my BMW GS riding buddies who took the Stelvio out for a demo ride and were totally impressed. But they wouldn't purchase the Guzzi. These guys had grown to trust BMW, but were unsure of what level of support they'd get from Guzzi. And when one looks at the amount of effort BMWMOA and BMWRA put into promoting the brand and lifestyle (damn, I hate that word!,) compared to the efforts of any of the Guzzi clubs, there is no comparison.
I just received a letter from MOA, promoting a raffle of 25 current BMW bikes. A $100.00 ticket gives you one chance at each of these bikes. The income from this raffle goes to one of MOA's causes, which is often directed at making riding safer. Of course I'll buy one ticket.
There IS considerable activity to keep the BMW brand alive, and keep new riders joining the ranks, on the part of the clubs and by BMW.
It is that level of promotion and support that, in my mind, explains why BMW won, and Guzzi lost, the battle of comparable bikes.
So, was CARC a failure? To my way of thinking, not from a pure design standpoint. But there were (and still are) so many things working against Moto Guzzi. I don't think bike design during the CARC era was one of them.
Bob
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The end result has been a pusillanimous retreat into designs of great mediocrity. Oddly enough they aren�t selling either.
Pete
Just in case..!
(https://thumb.ibb.co/jCXR3T/IMG_0948.png) (https://ibb.co/jCXR3T)
I didn't know myself.. :embarrassed:
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In a way they were a failure because Guzzi did not take the concept forward into a new model range. When I look at the present line up there is a gaping hole where a updated 1200cc CARC bike should be.
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In a way they were a failure because Guzzi did not take the concept forward into a new model range. When I look at the present line up there is a gaping hole where a updated 1200cc CARC bike should be.
Hear, hear!!! ....here's to hoping for a naked standard to come out by the time I'm ready for a new scoot. If not, I just don't see the purchase of a "new" Guzzi. Breva 1100 #3?
Is the alternative to the CARC, a shaftie with a double sided swingarm then?
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I do not believe my CARC Norge 2v a failure at all. I am keeping it.
Sometimes people hang on to what they like without upgrading every couple of years.
I bought my '08 new in 2010 and have a little over 33,000 miles. It is barely broken in.
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All of this is making me wish I'd picked up that leftover 2012 Norge I found in Pensacola...
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I was half-joking to my wife that we'll probably pick up a "lightly used" Norge in the future and strip it down to a naked. I wonder what kind of headlight module I could attach up there. Probably just a bit of used Breva kit with a possible bulb upgrade..
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I don't feel that the CARC bikes were a failure at all. They had a good run by Guzzi standards. Heck, every new Guzzi I have bought over the last fifty years was out of production by the time I sold it. Despite the flat tappet issue, which for me on my present 2012 NTX was not that big a deal, the 8V engine suits me just fine. I don't plan on selling the Stelvio until its time to downsize due to age/health concerns. The NTX as a true ADV my not have been the best choice but as a ready made and factory equipped touring bike its has been great.
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Gee, the CARCs were such a failure I bought 3.
The Norge was such a failure, mine has gone 137,000 miles. My Stelvio is such a failure that it has only managed 17,000 miles since last September. And the Grsio is such a miserable piece of work that it has only gone 5,000 miles since the start of March.
The CARC bikes were no more a failure than any other Moto Guzzi, and any failure was not of the machine but of the marketing (lack thereof, and what there was seemed ill-conceived and poorly targeted). It didn't help that the CARC bikes' lifespan on the sales floor overlapped the most severe economic downturn in 80 years. Try selling motorcycles to people who are worried about basics; the market for all bikes was so bad that Honda skipped a year of production on the Wing.
When (and I do sincerely hope it's 'when' and not 'if') MG comes out with a new generation of CARC-like bikes, I will seriously look at them.
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I think they were required to met Euro 4 standards at least for bikes sold there. That meant abs and noise/emissions upgrades. I suspect that's why 2017 Griso's magically showed up in the US but not in Europe.
At least one 2018 griso advertised on bikesales, new unsold with a few nos 2016�s too (Australia)
No euro 4 need here either, possibly enough made to keep bringing in for years
Maybe they don�t sell here because of fuel range � see v9 thread
Or it could be the look only a mother could love ?
Stelvios sold well I believe but nowhere near bmw or KTM
The importer from 70�s and 80�s who sold boatloads of guzzis is importer again, see what they can do
with brand, they are good at sales, took hinkley triumph to mainstream.
As itsec just said, it is all marketing, not much about the bike, see HD
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the vast majority of the motorcycling population hardly know what a Guzzi is
:1:
Exactly! Not a sales failure. Rather, nearly unknown. A cult.
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The original Breva 1100 was a relatively uninspired Piaggio copy of the R1150R BMW and shortly after introduction BMW introduced the R1200R that outclassed it. The big Breva and all its direct descendants became a bit player in the market from that point on.
The Griso was an Aprillia re-pop of the Guzzi-developed Centauro concept, I think a better idea to promote Moto Guzzi as a brand than the Breva etc, but as others have mentioned the legal constraints killed it. I suspect that Piaggio may attempt a third version of the same concept as despite BMW returning the favor and copying the Griso, Guzzi was the original and that serves the brand.
Yep...
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In the house of Piaggio, Aprilia is the fortunate son. Moto Guzzi is the stepchild, intentionally hobbled to prevent taking too much glory from the favorite. Guzzi needs a better home where it can be allowed to thrive. A thousand curses on the house of Piaggio. Wretched bastards with their shiny little scooters.
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I was told, back when it was first known that the big blocks were going away, that it was indeed a EURO 4 problem, but not in the way one would expect. Rather, the total emissions were withing spec, but the certifying agency did not approve of how Guzzi had design their idle circuitry. Obviously, I don't know if this is true or not, but what the hell, it's as good an answer as any other unofficial response or guess.
The biggest two issues I see are the lack of a solid, nationwide, dealer network, and no advertising. One would think that having Billy Joel as a Guzzi fan would have been jumped on for advertising purposes, not to mention using Ewan a lot more to promote the brand. One might consider a joint advertising campaign with both those gentlemen and their Guzzis.
*sigh*
It is what it is. I love my Norge, but I am getting tired of fixing those stupid tabs.
jdg <-- 83,000 miles and counting on the '07 Norge (the fast red one)
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Not a sales failure. Rather, nearly unknown. A cult.
Mental pic of a guys in "Guzzi" shirts on the street corner trying to recruit new victims..I mean buyers.
We are the advertising and support system for Guzzi. I think the only advertisement I had seen before my first MG purchase was a magenta t-shirt with the word GUZZI in gold..worn by a guy that didn't actually have a Moto Guzzi. I didn't know anyone with a MG, and had never seen one up close. How in the heck did I end up with 3 of them??? The only thing I know is that if you get one, you'll always want to have one.
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I read that MG was revamping the 1100/1200 for reintro in a couple of years. Imagine if they can get 85hp out of that new 850, then.....
:popcorn:
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Well first, let me apologize for my labeling of the CARC bikes sales failures. I concur, ten years is a good run especially for a small brand like Guzzi. Let�s then call it diminishing sales. Had they been selling in good numbers I�m sure Guzzi or Piaggio would have invested to find a way to make it work.
Second, great responses here, really enjoying reading them. I will say, however, many of them read as truth more for Guzzi in general then specifically just for CARC bikes. They are good answers and ring of truth but they would seem to apply to any Moto Guzzi. Often these answers seem generous and very sympathetic to the brand - I empathize, obviously. Having said this, I truly and absolutely think Guzzi�s main problems are not engineering faults that led to lack of confidence in the brand (Hydro recall, flat tappets, etc.), poor dealer network, nor poor dealer support. I even think the height of Guzzi sales back in the day was almost a perfect storm fluke that can likely never be repeated. Yes, I love the brand but I�m outlandishly skeptical it can ever never ever return to significantly larger sales numbers.
Rather, here�s my assessment of why Moto Guzzis have not sold. A musical analogy that only few here will probably understand. Here it is. The Replacements were never going to be the Rolling Stones no matter how you cleaned them, marketed them, or sold them. Guzzis are often reviled or in contrast, critics darlings in reviews. They are a specific and wonderful kind of motorcycle that makes for a specific and wonderful kind of experience that appeals to a specific but rarely wonderful :boozing: :thumb: kind of rider. I would use the word niche but as all of you here well know, it�s more like a cult.
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The flat tappet fiasco poisoned the CARC well. MG obviously didn�t learn their lesson from the Hydro motor fiasco and chose to do a repeat.
I like my my hydro motor. It is the best running Guzzi I have owned.
After installing a Ram clutch in the engine this past winter, I would not own another Guzzi with out the 10 pound lighter clutch set up. A much better running engine.
As far as carc goes, I have a Magni swingarm installed. This is a massive improvement also for a shaft drive motorcycle. Not Carc, but the original patent design.
My biggest problem now is I am afraid I will get pulled over by the police because of the increased performance and my abusing it.
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Good summary BP...well stated indeed!
I would really like to know what the original unit forecasts were when CARC bikes were conceived and also what the time frame for sales was estimated to be...at that time, but that may not be possible to track down.
Who knows if it's possible to find them, but the upside of all of this, is that extremely solid, reasonable to maintain and beautifully designed bikes are available for ridiculously low prices on the secondary / tertiary market.
Like Land Rovers, Guzzis are addictive and it's hard to have only one of them. I'm loving my Norge, Griso and Scura, all 3 unique enough that the riding experience is very different and each one exceptionally enjoyable.
Now if I could just find a beautiful blue Stelvio somewhere! :laugh: :laugh:
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I was half-joking to my wife that we'll probably pick up a "lightly used" Norge in the future and strip it down to a naked. I wonder what kind of headlight module I could attach up there. Probably just a bit of used Breva kit with a possible bulb upgrade..
1200 Sport and call it good. Better suspension than the Norge, accepts all Norge accessories and they're out there cheap.
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1200 Sport and call it good. Better suspension than the Norge, accepts all Norge accessories and they're out there cheap.
..... unfortunately for me!
Bob
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..... unfortunately for me!
Bob
You guys should talk.
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In hindsight, post carc era, my fondness memories will be of the introduction of the 1200 hi cam. What a sweet motor when tuned properly. And of course a Beetle map ! I think the carc will go down as a success to those who have had the joy of experiencing one. For MG sales , not so sure.
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NO MOTO GUZZI BIKE IS A FAILURE PERIOD.
It's the MARKETING stupid!
They are the exact opposite of Harley Davidson. Harley is BRILLIANT at knowing their customers and marketing their products.
Either they want Moto Guzzi to fail or they are the absolute WORST at marketing their product!!!
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The motor did not qualify for EURO regulations (new) and it's not worth it to invest for a new motor in the old frame. New motor and frame will coincide.
Look at Triumph. To change the seating position in the new(ish) Thunderbird 1600 and 1700 the entire frame needed changing, which means a TON of other components. And where did that get them............... ......? New frame on the new 800's with an ungraded motor was necessary to make it fit. Kevin Camaron detailed it well in the British magazines in the recent past.
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Just for reference..Griso is a current model in Australia, Thailand, India....
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Dollars to doughnuts they did the same thing Triumph did with the 1200 Trophy. Using up parts inventory and producing a few current year badged bikes to sell in certain countries. Same bike, different sticker.
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BTW, last year one could have purchased a "left-over build" Trophy with full 2 year factory warentee for 11,999. 2016 sticker was north of 19K. SCREAMING deal on a really nice motorcycle.
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I was half-joking to my wife that we'll probably pick up a "lightly used" Norge in the future and strip it down to a naked. I wonder what kind of headlight module I could attach up there. Probably just a bit of used Breva kit with a possible bulb upgrade..
There was a beautiful example of this for sale through Swap Meet -
Swap Meet / Re: FS: 2007 Psuedo Naked Norge for sale (reduced price!)
« on: November 18, 2017, 07:38:54 AM »
Quote from: catneck on November 17, 2017, 08:21:38 PM
Great trip, now at home in Oregon.
1287 trouble free miles.
Lots of attention on the way, nobody had ever seen this model before. :rolleyes:
Tire shop service writer actually asked if the brand was Moto Guzzi..
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Saw that one... Very interesting..
I'm thinking a later model version Norge....say 2014 or newer.
I hope MG will come out with something in that vein by the time I'm ready for a new (to me) bike. (we just bought the 2006 Breva)
** There was a time when Speakers (very close to my location), received a Norge that was damaged "in shipping". Jason actually did the transformation to that Norge. If memory serves, he created a nice silver Breva with heated grips available when I did the first 2006 black Breva 1100 purchase.
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Was the single sided swing arm an expensive piece? 60,000+ miles for me with no issues. Surprised that that part of the design is no longer. I wonder if the "replacement" being promised will incorporate the CARC part.
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I don't know that the CARC bikes were a sales failure. For Moto Guzzi, they probably sold pretty well. (No outsiders have any sales figures vs. projections, do they?)
I love my Norge (it is my second one, and I bought both new), and I think it is a shame Moto Guzzi has such a hole in its product line. Hopefully they feel the same way and really are working on a replacement for the CARC bikes...