4 June udate no start, pump ok and works

[old head]

We haven't had a dealer in the area for quite a while.  There was a mechanic at the shop before BMW bought out the dealer, and he lived in St Francisville.  I had to take it to his house once for warranty work, just wondering if anyone knows his number or if he is still working on Moto Guzzi.

I can run it over to MPH, where I got if from in 2007, but its 5 hours from house ea way.  Mike has always treated me right, but he is so far away.

My led dash has clouded over, no start issue, and red triangle on dash.
I can' t hear the pump run when I turn the key on.
I changed the fuel filter 3-4 months ago, as it felt like it was starving for gas.  That went fine, and was a lot better, but still had a slight stumble once in awhile at 4k RPM.

I think its the fuel pump as the fuse is good.
I can' t find just the pump, do you have to replace the entire assembly?

just turned 60k miles

Glen

[JL Rich]

Mike is now working out of his home workshop in Hempstead TX.

[antmanbee]

I think its the fuel pump as the fuse is good.
I can' t find just the pump, do you have to replace the entire assembly?

just turned 60k miles

Glen

Put 12V direct to the pump first to see if it is the pump. If it is the pump that is bad, it is easy to source pumps that fit but not direct from Guzzi. That same style pump is used in many vehicles pump assemblies. The pressure regulator and elbow fitting is also available from several suppliers.

[old head]

Is there a cross reference for suitable replacement fuel pump, other than OEM replacement.

[guzzisteve]

https://ca-cycleworks.com/efi.html

There are cheap ones too, I just did a DUC of the Stepsons, pretty easy to put a pump on the plate

Here's one


https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=5389

[blackcat]

https://ca-cycleworks.com/efi.html

There are cheap ones too, I just did a DUC of the Stepsons, pretty easy to put a pump on the plate

Here's one


https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=5389

Hmm....they look identical.  I'd have to go with the MG Cycle one given the cost unless the Cycleworks one is a significantly better option.

[guzzisteve]

There are more on Ebay, cheap Chinese. Got one for a Quota and it was loud running.

[old head]

OK, I pulled the fuel pump out and wired it direct and it runs.
I have power at the 20amp fuse, both sides so the fuse is good.
no power at the pump or the 4 pin connector under the tank when key if turned on.
I also have the red triangle on the dash, but since my led screen is faded out, I can' t read the codes to see what the red triangle is all about.

the wiring diagram I have gets very blurry when I blow it up to see if there is a relay, but I can' t tell

suggestions?

I also pulled the float apart to see if it had a leak as the tank reads full for about 50 miles then drops to empty.  LIght works fine, just the fuel gauge.  DIdn't see any cracks in the float so not sure what is going on with that.

Old Head

[Kiwi_Roy]

It would help to know what model and year we are talking about.

[guzzisteve]

It SAYs on bottom of his post he rides a Breva 1100  There is a relay for pump it may be for something else also, dual purpose.

I'll look at mine it's hi def and clear(wire diag)

OK  it's the Aux Injection Relay
Wiring colors
Grey/blue--------------goes to - on pump from pin 85 on Main Injection relay which is green/blue  & goes to ground on black ECU plug.
Red/Black
Red/Brown-------------goes to + on pump
Orange/green

Look for that relay by battery area

Your own Hi-Def

https://guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/BREVA1100/Breva1100_WiringDiagram.pdf

[old head]

OK great
I will dig into that and look for that realy and see what I find out.
thanks
Glen

[old head]

Ok, pulled and located ea relay.  A connector was not connected to anything and I can' t locate  male connector to plug into it.  Its dark now and I am thinking a relay gets plugged into this connector.  I don't see how a relay could come lose,  but I guess?  the resistance between the red/brown from the connector to the fuel pump connectore is almost 0.

SO tomorrow when its light after work, I will try a relay and see what happens.

[blackcat]

So, what happened?

[old head]

Well, its been raining every afternoon this past week.  Finally, dried up today, and got into it
the fuel pump relay had fallen out.  don't know where it went, weird, never seen that before.
replaced the relay and its running with no red triangle on the dash.

now the fuel guage is working but the low fuel light is flashing?  before it would be solid light, never flashing.

thanks for all the suggestions.

[guzzisteve]

Nice to see you got it sorted. There should be a rubber holder for relay to be inserted into & hang next to batt box

[old head]

now onto the failure to crank with the button.
cranks fine with a direct wire to the solenoid
appling power to the solenoid wire at the relay, it cranks.
jump wire across the connector from power to solenoid wire cranks.
tried several relays no change.

I seem to be leaning toward a bad connection in the connector
I need to get my meter out and check voltage at the hot going to the relay, and the wire running from the starter button.
right now I am leaning that one or more of the female connectors isn't making a good connection.

[guzzisteve]

If you hot wire it w/key on it should start & run. Is the tip over sensor got the ball in the V to run? It's a square box rubber mounted twice the size of a relay in same area.

[old head]

ok
ArG (Org/Yellow) wire has 0 volts when key is on.
G (Yellow) wire has 12.6 volts
RoM (Pink/Brn) wire has 0 volts
RN (red/Blk) wire has .8volts

I can hear and feel the starter solenoid clicking.  sometimes it will crank, some times it won't.

If I ground the RoM wire at the bottom of the connector it cranks easily  with relay connected

If I run a jump wire from G to ArG on the connector, it cranks easily.
have tried several relays, no change.
could it be push button starter switch bad or not making good connections?

[guzzisteve]

Those colored wires are for ignition relay.

[pehayes]

This is a funky starting issue with the 1100 Breva and early Norge.  It has to do with the 'auto-crank' feature where you don't have to hold the start button.  Just tap it.  Bogus idea!  The computer gets involved in deciding whether or not to crank the motor.  We had a big discussion on this a few years back.  You need to read through ALL FOUR pages of this discussion:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=117948.0

A new, hot battery will solve it for a little while but the problem will eventually come back as the battery ages even a little.
A manual, momentary bypass switch feeding directly to the solenoid will solve it for you permanently.
YMMV.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[guzzisteve]

That relay is associated with Startus Interuptus , it is the yellow wire that gets cut for 12V direct to batt. Both Ro/M & R/N go to ECU

Excellent discussion thread from Patrick .

[old head]

well, went out this morning, had my charger on the battery overnight,
the shows 12.4 with my meter, so batter is weak, its a couple years old,
all I get is the oud clank, clank at the starter,
I put my lithium jump pack on the battery and got one clank then fired righrt up.
If I use my bypass wire, battery to starter solenoid, it cranks no issues without the jumper pack.
the voltage is 12.3 at the solenoid wire at the starter, almost the same as the battery.

FYI, I have done the startus interruptus, pulled cables and cleaned connections, had a new solenoid put on and he said he cleaned up the starter brushed they were good.
MPH solution worked for years, and now I am back to where it was.

This is has been an issue for years.  sometimes it cranks and sometimes it won't.
I have just been using the jumper wire when it won't crank.

after reading through the 4 pgaes of discussion
 https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=117948.0,
 this is exactly how mine acts.  it seems it is the computer control causing the issues.

my brother is coming over, he says he can come up with a solution.  he is an electrican, builds compters, and trouble shoots industrial electrical systsems for a living.  He told me years ago that the issue is the computer controled cranking sequence.

 starter works with fresh battery, or after it has been running for while.  it seems I start getting this issue after the battery begins to deterioate after a time, just like everyone else who has had this issue.

[guzzisteve]

Glad you located the issue, don't have an answer. I don't own a CARC bike, all older models only. They all have a 34AH batt in them like the motor was designed with and needs to start the big lump.
Going out to ride the EV, last time was Feb and it will start right up sitting this long w/o a charge.

[Kiwi_Roy]

It sounds to me like classic Startus Interuptus
The wiring comic doesn't show there are two coils inside the Starter Solenoid, every Guzzi I have owned has this
I have named them the holding coil because it only has to hold the gear in place when its pulled in by the Grunt coil
The Grunt coil has to provide an enormous magnetic field to pull the starter gear from its resting position far away from the cranking position.
The holding coil coil draws just a few Amps (~10) but the grunt coil draws well over 40
The grunt coil is only in circuit until the starter meshes with the ring gear. but often the bikes wiring has too much resistance to supply the heavy current required to throw the starter gear forward.
We are talking 50 - 60 Amps for just a split second.
It works every time you hot wire it right?
Because your hot wire has very little resistance.
Take a look at the Orange green wire from the relay pin 5 to the starter solenoid, i think you will find it quite tiny.
Many owners provide a new feed to the starter relay, snip the yellow wire and join on a feed direct from the battery.
I have proven that a larger wire from the relay to solenoid will shorten the time it takes to engage the starter from rest to cranking
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif

Another option is to provide a separate relay mounted right beside the starter solenoid with the contacts connected between the large hot terminal and the solenoid spade. the coil is connected to the original Orange/Green and Chassis.

[old head]

Kiwi Roy

changing to a larger wire from relay to solenoid has been on my mind for a while.  I don't really understand why if it will crank when I jump from battery lead in the solenoid conncetor to the solenoid wire conector if cranks no problem.  In my mind, the wire should be good enough.

 I did run a heaver wire from the solenoid to the connector solenoid connector and it made no difference.
However, I am willing to try most anything to try and solve this problem finally.

I will say this, after riding for about 20 minutes yesterday, I stopped for gas, and tried the starter circuit and it clanked once, then fired right up.

Now, my battery is a couple yearas old, and it only measures about 12.4 volts after being on my charger over night.  This is why I really think the computer is what is holding up the cranking.  Maybe not, but I can certainly redo the wires and connections.

I did clean the relay male connections, and honestly there was a little corrosion, not much but some.