New motor for my '13 Norge!

[Xlratr]

what ever the problem, I would wager that the fuel has nothing to do with it.

Agree. That was a drift 

[pete roper]

Given how grossly over cooled the 8V is I can't see it having cooked itself. As a case in point look at Dave's bike AKA the 'Melted Munter' which was left idling by its PO until it cooked it's phase sensor, (This is the safety cut off btw.). I stripped it expecting a mountain of damage and found.......NOTHING! Even the rings were OK!

I also cannot see how it would of been rideable if it had somehow pumped out 3.5 litres of oil! It would of looked like the Exon Valdez and been unrideable.

As for fuel? The 8V has a lovely, very *Modern* combustion chamber which allows a higher CR than the old 2VPC motor and will effectively run on pretty much any old swill. That doesn't mean that it will like it and you can feel a distinct drop in performance and it will be more vibratory with lower octane petrol. Adding ethanol simply makes a bad situation much worse but since we don't get much E10 over here and I have no desire to ride a crapplily running bike I've never used it. When I rode a Griso in the US I was at that time usually able to find E-free gas from memory.

As stated, I'm glad the OP's bike is now running well. I just can't fathom why it needed a new motor to achieve it!

Pete

[Arizona Wayne]

Maybe the factory just wants the whole motor back to see what occurred. 

[K250]

Warning sticker said No E-85.

I've been running 93 octane?

HELP, what the heck do us yanks run in these things....

Hello, high octane and E85 are NOT the same thing!  E85 is 85% ethanol, not very many vehicles can use it, and no motorcycles that i know of.  If a person ran some E85 thinking it was premium unleaded, that would cause problems.  Certainly it would run very lean, if at all, and possibly overheat the engine to the point of failure. 

Fwiw, I once saw a cruiser rider put straight pipes on without rejetting, the engine failed from the resulting run hot condition in under 2000 miles.....   Not saying every model is that sensitive of course. 

E85 is common in areas near ethanol plants, which is much of the Midwest.  Probably no so much elsewhere.  For example, did not see any in Texas awhile back when i went there.  Many newer pickups will run on it.  We use it at work in a couple hundred f150's. 

[samfrank]

High altitude just clouds the concern. Is the Norge being ridden only at high altitudes?

Its really simple, either there is a requirement change from the manufacturer or there isn't. If the manufacture made the recommendation then that would go for all Norges using the 8V or did they make a special requirement for this one Norge.

For once, can we bypass all the tangents and deal with points to some end without this and that twist and before some needs to start talking about ...?

There is an implied relationship between higher than 89 octane and an 8V engine running itself empty of oil to the point of destruction requiring replacement, somehow that simply doesn't add up.

If it does add up then everyone following the fuel requirement that is "in writing" is doing it wrong.

There are a lot of unanswered questions. The bike stopped running, red triangle...how much oil got pumped out? How long did it take (no way that much oil leaks and you don't know it).

These are questions to OP can easily answer.

So:

1. Who made the recommendation for the 89 octane?
2. How long was oil leaking from the engine?
3. How much (guesstimate) oil leaked out before it stopped?
4. Did you check the oil level when it stopped running?
5. Did you pull any error codes afterward?

1. The dealer but he was emphasizing ethanol content.
2. AFAIK a very short period time.
3. I would have to say not too much. But really have no idea.
4. No
5. No. But the dealer probably did.

[canuguzzi]

Thanks.

[swordds]

OK, despite the digression into debates about octane, and not meaning to shoot the messenger for posting this, it is still unclear to me what the actual engine failure was and what caused the engine to fail to such an extent and in such a fashion that Paggio would agree to an engine replacement under warranty?

[canuguzzi]

The octane was one implied reason for the failure. At least we know the octane thing isn't coming from Piaggio. As for ethanol, there are plenty of places where non-ethanol gas isn't easily available, especially if your trip doesn't follow the route of particular gas stations.

I am guessing, lack of lubrication. The reason for that hasn't been ascertained.

Again, a spec but we can say it isn't as a primary cause:

Overheating
Fuel choice
Sensors/switches
The oil leak
??? Would that be right?

That does leave insufficient oil put in when the last oil change was performed. If (big if) at the last oil change insufficient oil or the wrong oil (gear oil for example) was put in, surely that would cause significant damage and if done by the dealer a new engine would be some compensation?

Pep Boys has been known to use all kinds of fluids in place of brake fluid so things like that do happen. Last service, tech grabs final drive oil and fills the engine.

What would that do?

If one quart of oil were put in, how long would that engine run before eating itself?

[Muzz]

I suspects that if the normal "suspects" were replaced and it still leaked I would then suspect that Pete's comment about a porous head could well be on the button.

There could well be a second problem running along side the leak, perhaps in the lubrication system which flashed up the warning. Two problems with the same motor could well convince Guzzi to want a look at it.

I know the heron head smallblock is a completely different beast than the modern 8 valve but I can assure you that although it will run on 91 octane it goes a helluva lot better and knock a helluva lot less on 95. We don't get ethanol down here on the mainland of New Zealand and to that I say thank goodness.

Pleased to see that the OP got his problem sorted. That is the main thing.

[ITSec]

I know the heron head smallblock is a completely different beast than the modern 8 valve but I can assure you that although it will run on 91 octane it goes a helluva lot better and knock a helluva lot less on 95. We don't get ethanol down here on the mainland of New Zealand and to that I say thank goodness.

Pleased to see that the OP got his problem sorted. That is the main thing.

Just to remind people reading that octane levels are measured consistently but published differently in different areas of the world. When NZ consumers see '95', they are seeing the RON value; in North America, we see the average of the RON value and the (usually lower) MON value. Thus a fuel sold as 91 in Kansas might be the same as a fuel sold as 95 in Christchurch (setting aside the ethanol question). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating#Measurement_methods for a fairly clear explanation.

[canuguzzi]

If they replaced the entire motor, means a new engine serial number yes? It would be interesting to see if that is what they really did, replace the entire engine. Not saying they did not but sometimes what is said vs meant vs understood can be very different.

[LowRyter]

Sorry, na$car uses E15, not E85.

OK, thanks for clarifying.  Actually that makes total sense.

[oldbike54]

OK, thanks for clarifying.  Actually that makes total sense.

 You are correct about the old CART Champ cars and now Indy cars running ethanol . In fact , I believe the 410 CI winged sprint cars , and USAC Silver Crown and sprint cars also burn ethanol . Most of our dirt track roundy round boys here burn alcohol , so it must be fairly common .

 Dusty

[Zoom Zoom]

High octane gasoline doesn't burn any hotter than low octane . Or produce more power , or burn cleaner , or increase fuel mileage , or make you anymore attractive to potential mates .

 Dusty

Wait, what............... . Son of a gun. 

John Henry

[oldbike54]

Wait, what............... . Son of a gun. 

John Henry

 Yes , the truth is often painful 

 Dusty

[George_S]

The engine failure wasn't from "improper" octane fuel.
I'm also convinced it wasn't from lack of oil in engine. In that scenario, the operator would feel tremendous heat emanating from the engine and most definitely some strange noises too, telling him something was wrong. It's also surprisingly difficult to ruin an engine right away that way. Just look at some M/C rallies where they deliberately try to kill a running engine. It's not that easy.

For Piaggio to so easily agree to the replacement engine and not to try and put some blame on the owner, tells me they found a defect of some kind right away.

[canuguzzi]

The engine failure wasn't from "improper" octane fuel.
I'm also convinced it wasn't from lack of oil in engine. In that scenario, the operator would feel tremendous heat emanating from the engine and most definitely some strange noises too, telling him something was wrong. It's also surprisingly difficult to ruin an engine right away that way. Just look at some M/C rallies where they deliberately try to kill a running engine. It's not that easy.

For Piaggio to so easily agree to the replacement engine and not to try and put some blame on the owner, tells me they found a defect of some kind right away.

:1:

[John A]

The easiest way to explain octane ratings is that comparatively the higher the number the slower it burns. Most engines tolerate a wide range if not being used at high load.

[K250]

No problem believing a tank of e85 100 octane fuel would melt a Norge engine from a lean overheating condition.   Also no problem believing that Phil and Moto Guzzi would replace a Norge engine for a good will gesture to a good customer.   

Good for the Original poster hope all works out well.  The Norge is an outstanding motorcycle in the sport touring field.

[cruzziguzzi]

Too cool!


An "octane thread"!

Oil, tubes, oatmeal, catharsis, style, hipsters, bobbers and knobbers having grown so very passe.


Todd.

[Wayne Orwig]

Oil leak
Error code
Octane
Need a new motor

Since all of these have a nearly impossible connection with each other, I vote for high tire pressure.

Next thing you know some 'tard' out there will believe that high octane does damage engines. After all, they read it on the internit.

[LowRyter]

You are correct about the old CART Champ cars and now Indy cars running ethanol . In fact , I believe the 410 CI winged sprint cars , and USAC Silver Crown and sprint cars also burn ethanol . Most of our dirt track roundy round boys here burn alcohol , so it must be fairly common .

 Dusty

that was my point about E85 in Indy Cars.
But NASCAR used to run on gasoline, now E15 which makes sense.

[atavar]

Lower octane has higher energy content than high octane.  Will give marginally better power and mileage.....but.... if your high octane contains a different amount of ethanol, then run whatever has the lowest ethanol.  Some brands also claim a different

Are you sure you don't have that backwards?  I get noticeably better mileage with 91 octane than i do with 87 octane, to the tune of about 75 extra miles range per tank.  I was told that this is because the higher octane burns slower and produces power through more of the power stroke.  The same holds true in my car with a 4.6L V8 but not to the same degree.
My experience is that 87 Octane and 91 Octane pretty much have almost exactly the same dollars per mile, (I pay more for premium but burn less so it's a wash) but the extra efficiency from 91 Octane gets me more miles per tank and fewer fuel stops.
Power is hard to tell, not really a noticeable difference. 

The other advantage to higher octane is less pinging on hot days / hard rides.

[oldbike54]

Are you sure you don't have that backwards?  I get noticeably better mileage with 91 octane than i do with 87 octane, to the tune of about 75 extra miles range per tank.  I was told that this is because the higher octane burns slower and produces power through more of the power stroke.  The same holds true in my car with a 4.6L V8 but not to the same degree.
My experience is that 87 Octane and 91 Octane pretty much have almost exactly the same dollars per mile, (I pay more for premium but burn less so it's a wash) but the extra efficiency from 91 Octane gets me more miles per tank and fewer fuel stops.
Power is hard to tell, not really a noticeable difference. 

The other advantage to higher octane is less pinging on hot days / hard rides.

 The only way you are seeing that much difference is if the 87 is 10% alcohol and the 91 is straight gas . Higher oct doesn't "burn"  slower , it is just harder to ignite . Once burning all gasoline burns at the same rate . Is this on your Norge , could be because the Norge needs 91 oct .

 Dusty

[canuguzzi]

It all depends on which fuel the engine was designed to use.

Like many performance related issues, like loud exhausts equally more HP, it is simply an inaccurate comparison.

There will always be those who use a lower octane fuel in an engine designed tonuse higher octane and then claim it ran better and vice versa.

Means nothing. Look long and hard enough and someone on the Internet can show you a gasoline engine that runs on water.

Here you go, no octane.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AFKjGQFJzg8

[atavar]

A good read on octane from a probably reliable source..  http://www.racegas.com/article/10

[AH Fan]

Bee Ess of the highest order. Always run the highest octane with lowest ethanol content. If anyone suggests otherwise, chastise them rigorously.

Yup   agreed .......... That's the proper diet mine are fed from day one.

Ciao.