-98 Nevada neutral issues

[s151669]

I have trouble finding neutral on my Guzzi. Symptoms:

- engine not running: no trouble at all. Smoothest neutral to be found unless you count Kawasaki positive neutral finder...
- engine just started: mostly trouble free, requires some finesse.
- after short ride to work: can be found with effort
- after longer more spirited ride: no way

Of course, related: bike (finally after carb work) idles nicely at neutral. Not in first gear.

And gearbox is sometimes stubborn when switching gears. And sometimes there are false neutrals.

--> all point to clutch drag.

I _can_ adjust the free play at clutch lever to the 2..3mm as required but only barely, the adjuster is all way out. This helps some but does not eliminate the issue. Also, the adjuster seems to creep - it holds its setting maybe for a day. Possibly related to adjuster being all way out.

I did check (last  year) the actuating lever at gear box end. It is almost but not quite at the required 90 degrees but the adjustment nut seems to be stuck. Did not want to break anything and left as is - the difference for cable length is minimal anyway.

Now what ?

New clutch cable ? Last carburettor issues were actually solved by replacing all the carburettor cables. Perhaps the clutch cable has it's own issues ?

Something else ? If so, what ?

Clutch does not slip. When in neutral there is a bearing like noise, not very loud. Then again  all my bikes so far (none were guzzis though) have been making similar noise when at neutral.

[paulbricey]

Personally I'd fix the gearbox end adjuster & try that first - that can change the amount of travel to disengage clutch. 

Otherwise the only problems I have had on various bikes (V65 Florida/V50 mk3) were :
- worn out clutch plates
- clutch cable broke 1-2 strands at the handlebar lever pivot (easy to see) which obviously makes cable inner longer & only way to adjust is by using up all the travel of knurlled bit.
- If the cable hasn't been adjusted properly (I bought V50 with no clutch adjustment & clutch not disengaging) then internally the pushrod can wear through the clutch plate holder (Part 2 in diagram). Then needs new part see below
- Can also be gearbox eccentric problem - adjusts the load on selector shaft bu moving the spring left or right.

[s151669]

- Can also be gearbox eccentric problem - adjusts the load on selector shaft bu moving the spring left or right.

Hmm. That would be gearbox out kind of adjustment ? Or possible to do - how ?

Forgot to mention: neutral light also is - flaky. I have cleaned & re-tensioned bulb connections at instrument cluster and changed the bulb. Did that to all lights. So it appears to be sticky or misadjusted(?) sensor. But where it is located ? And is there anything to be aware of if removed & cleaned & lubricated ? Or anything to adjust at all ?

[Tkelly]

Try a new cable,they do stretch over time.If that doesn’t work you have an extra .

[pehayes]

Time to pull the swingarm and inspect the radial throwout bearing.  If you catch it early it is a cheap/quick fix.  If you catch it too late it can do expensive damage.

Do you have any freeplay in the system down at the back of the transmission?  Look at that lever.  Pull on the hand lever with just one finger.  Does the transmission lever move a little before pressing on the throwout?

The adjuster within the transmission lever has a much greater effect than the adjuster at the hand lever.  Probably a 1:5 difference between the two.

You MUST have freeplay at the back of the transmission or you will quickly lose the throwout bearing.

Also, when you pull full on the hand lever, does the transmission lever hit the back of the transmission in any way.  This can limit the full 'throw' of the system.  Use a mirror or lay underneath the bike while someone else pulls the hand lever.

Ruined throwout bearing pieces.  Bad juju!





Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[paulbricey]

Sounds like a good list of clutch stuff to work through first (in order of difficulty & cost).
- New cable would be cheap & easy
- Adjusting the rear lever mechanism is usually free & just hard to see/get to
- Clutch bearings & washers medium hard & small cost (& while pushrod is out you can look & see if end is discoloured/melted - rules out Part 2 being shot)

If after all that it still won't change gear right, it could be worth adjusting the eccentric - it's not a gearbox out job & is just fiddly (& trial and error) like the lever adjuster screw. You just need to turn it a bit and 'test if it gets better/worse'. It's an eccentric so after 360 degrees you'll be back where you started !.

Here is eccentric screw in back of G/box (doesn't need stripping down this much - just easy way to show it...

[pehayes]

That picture shows the adjusting screw within the transmission's rear lever.  There are two versions of that screw.  The one shown is a "two flat" version.  Loosen the hex nut and then a small forked tool will turn the screw.  The other version which I have seen uses an internal hex screw.  You will need an Allen Wrench to turn the screw.  A typical Allen Wrench is too long and won't fit between the screw and the swingarm.  You can modify and shorten the Allen Wrench to fit this narrow space.

Also, note how close this adjuster screw is to the pivot or fulcrum of the transmission lever.  Now note how far away the forked end of the lever is from the fulcrum.  That defines it as a Class-2 lever.  That also explains why adjustment to the screw results in so much more adjustment to the tip of the lever.  The adjuster screw has a 1mm thread pitch.  One full turn of the screw would move the that part of the lever by 1mm.  But the working end of the lever would probably move by 6mm or more.  Serious mechanical advantage here.  Adjustments at this screw are much more impactful than the crude 1:1 adjustment at the hand lever.  Hard to imagine turning this adjuster screw more than 1/4 turn.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[paulbricey]

Here's the other version on my V50 Mk3 (before restoration). Best way to adjust this is to use a small hex insert on it's own (usually fit into female drive system) and use a small spanner around it

[pehayes]

Enlightening picture!  Raises two new issues.
1-where's the locknut for the screw?  Still needs a locknut so it doesn't move.  IIRC it is a special, thin nut with only 2 or 3 turns of thread.
2-Nice to see the little coil spring which pushes the transmission lever outward and away from the throwout body.  Helps to show amount of freeplay in the lever system.  Quite easy to drop and lose that spring when you do services. 

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[s151669]

New cable is already in the basket, just figuring out whatever else might be needed... cable 10€, postage 10€  so might just as well add other bits and pieces.

So the thrust bearing can be inspected / changed while gearbox is in place ? If so, I might just toss the bearing in the basket too, it is like 12€. And O-ring and...

For whatever reason the adjusting screw is quite expensive at 46€. And of course - since I already tried to losen it before but it was stuck - I'm afraid I'll strip the threads. I can get multiple boxes of M8x1 screws for that kind of money. Is there any reason you could not use one in pinch ?

Edit:

Regarding pulling the swing arm, is there anything to beware of ? Or parts to have in hand to be replaced ? This is a _high_ mileage bike after all.

[pehayes]

How much is high mileage??

There was a swingarm issue on the early smallblocks.  Not sure if it persists into your 98 version.  The swingarm requires a precise lateral position within the frame.  When you remove the swingarm pivot bolts, only ONE washer is going to drop out to the floor.  IIRC it comes from the right side.  My first time I spent hours searching for the missing second washer.  Find a parts explosion for  your model and verify.  That washer is a spacer between the transmission and the swingarm.  When reinstalling  the swingarm you tighten the left side pivot first which pulls the swingarm against said spacer washer.   You then tighten the right side pivot bolt.  And don't overtighten those pivots.  Snug is good enough.  You can always re-tighten to adjust after a few trips.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[paulbricey]

The clutch lever can be a problem at several levels. If the adjustment screw is really stuck I agree to be gentle/careful messing with it because removing the lever is the next level of 'potential pain'. The pin that the lever pivots on (Part 17 in the parts diagram for Nevada I posted earlier) can get completely stuck in the gearbox casing and if you try gently tapping it out with a hammer, the two support brackets in the gearbox rear section will shockingly easily break off (don't ask me how I know) & will then require AL rewelding - it cost me 30 GBP but it's high risk even from specialist.  So before doing anything agressive I would see if you are lucky & after removing the split pin, pin may be loose in the lever/lugs....sometimes pigs fly !

BTW the reason there is no locking nut on mine is probably because PO had to turn it in so far to compensate for wearing a hole into the clutch holding plate with the clutch pushrod. Here it is with nut (and eccentric nut circled again)

[s151669]

How much is high mileage??

The original odometer has like 88000km or so. However, the speedo drive was already broken when I bought the bike. I have put around 5000km there. So at least that much, likely more as the original owner had bracket, magnet & sensor for bicycle-style speedo/odometer.

The bike had been severly neglected by PO. Example: I checked that there were no signs of oil leaks in front fork. All good ? Well, if there is no oil it can not leak either  Similar stories about almost anything. But the engine seems to be solid.

There was a swingarm issue on the early smallblocks.  Not sure if it persists into your 98 version.  The swingarm requires a precise lateral position within the frame.  When you remove the swingarm pivot bolts, only ONE washer is going to drop out to the floor.  IIRC it comes from the right side.  My first time I spent hours searching for the missing second washer.  Find a parts explosion for  your model and verify.  That washer is a spacer between the transmission and the swingarm.  When reinstalling  the swingarm you tighten the left side pivot first which pulls the swingarm against said spacer washer.   You then tighten the right side pivot bolt.  And don't overtighten those pivots.  Snug is good enough.  You can always re-tighten to adjust after a few trips.

Thanks for the tip! Especially important since the previous owner had lost few washers - like the one sealing the rear drive. Guess how I found out that ? 

I suppose the correct order is to remove the rear - what is that pumpin called anyway as it is not differential ? - first, swing arm only after that ? I guess I should do that anyway to check/grease the driveshaft and splines.

The clutch lever can be a problem at several levels. If the adjustment screw is really stuck I agree to be gentle/careful messing with it because removing the lever is the next level of 'potential pain'. The pin that the lever pivots on (Part 17 in the parts diagram for Nevada I posted earlier) can get completely stuck in the gearbox casing and if you try gently tapping it out with a hammer, the two support brackets in the gearbox rear section will shockingly easily break off (don't ask me how I know) & will then require AL rewelding - it cost me 30 GBP but it's high risk even from specialist.  So before doing anything agressive I would see if you are lucky & after removing the split pin, pin may be loose in the lever/lugs....sometimes pigs fly !

Ouch! Fortunately I would never do anything similar - anymore - hopefully 

BTW the reason there is no locking nut on mine is probably because PO had to turn it in so far to compensate for wearing a hole into the clutch holding plate with the clutch pushrod. Here it is with nut (and eccentric nut circled again)

Ouch!

Anyway, I'll order the cable, thrust bearing, return spring and related seals. And wait for nice rainy day for installation.