Author Topic: V7 electrics; no spark  (Read 841 times)

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
V7 electrics; no spark
« on: March 25, 2019, 08:41:24 AM »
Last ride of last fall my 2013 V7 went intermittent while I was riding. The motor would just stop running while I was moving. Then it would kick back in for a while. Getting home in 4th gear to keep the revs up and even that 'trick' failed in the end and I coasted into my driveway.
Parked the bike over winter and because of a hip replacement I didn't touch it until yesterday while replacing the OEM battery.

I looked for threads on this topic, I know they exist, but haven't found the correct search string. Because accessing parts is problematic for my location I may decide to buy whatever parts are 'most likely' the cause. This is where I need your help. What are the most common electric failures on this engine?
I am thinking coils and possibly regulator are likely culprits. Point me to the threads and I'll read it all....
Also, I recall a thread where someone described wiring a relay into the starter circuit to drop the voltage going through the starter button... can't find that either.
All advice appreciated.
One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28103
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2019, 08:50:45 AM »
The OEM regulator on these bikes is some bizarre Ducati paraphernalia that is RATED to regulate charging to 15 volts.

But a bunch were failing even at that ridiculous rating and overcharging to a tune of 15.2-16.0 volts.

Jay, Cam, and I replaced four regulators between us on 2013-2014 bikes in our garages alone and there were reports of more.

We went with a rather standard mosfet type regulator and now our charging systems regulate to the low 14's as gawd intended.

I believe that Todd at Guzzitech saw a few that were spiking even worse and thinks that it fried one or two ECMs as well.

So I'd be curious how your charging system is regulating.

But I would probably be starting with the usual suspects - cables/grounds/connections.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696
07 HD XL1200Lr


Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28103
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 08:52:49 AM »
PS - the starter relay thing sounds like a bad memory of Startus Interruptus where the starter relay gets a new direct power feed to PREVENT voltage drops which might prevent the relay from engaging and keep the starter from running. This would have nothing to do with a bike that was already running.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696
07 HD XL1200Lr

Offline pyoungbl

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1914
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2019, 09:20:32 AM »
Are you sure the problem is with spark?  Yes, the R/R may well be over charging so that's worth checking and changing just as a long term precaution.  You say the engine started missing and then would quit running.  I'd look at fuel problems.  It's possible your fuel filter has sprung a leak.  Remember that the OEM filter is half metal and half plastic.  It's also possible that the filter is clogged.  Finally, water in the tank could cause these same symptoms.  Water molecules are large when compared to fuel and can actually block the tiny injector holes (per my diesel mechanic friend).

Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline Vagrant

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 842
  • Location: Gainesville, Ga or Green Valley Az.
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2019, 10:18:48 AM »
all the above but did you do the spark plug and plug boot fix?
HE IS FREE WHO LIVES AS HE CHOOSES
2001 EV, 2015 Versys 1000, 2015 V7 2017 V7-3 Blue special
L-196, L-197

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 01:39:30 PM »
Of course I heard about the spark plug boot issue but first I heard about the regulator problem, that's a bit worrying.

I have seen some of the earlier ECUs that would shut down if the Voltage got too high.

It seems to have a Voltage display, I would consider unplugging the regulator for a few minutes if it was showing too high, better than cooking the ECU.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 02:03:34 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline pyoungbl

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1914
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 02:33:14 PM »
2013 V7 does not have a voltage display.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 06:29:57 PM »
The OEM regulator on these bikes is some bizarre Ducati paraphernalia that is RATED to regulate charging to 15 volts.

But a bunch were failing even at that ridiculous rating and overcharging to a tune of 15.2-16.0 volts.

Jay, Cam, and I replaced four regulators between us on 2013-2014 bikes in our garages alone and there were reports of more.

We went with a rather standard mosfet type regulator and now our charging systems regulate to the low 14's as gawd intended.

I believe that Todd at Guzzitech saw a few that were spiking even worse and thinks that it fried one or two ECMs as well.

So I'd be curious how your charging system is regulating.

But I would probably be starting with the usual suspects - cables/grounds/connections.

Thanks Kev, I remember a thread fest on regulators. Are you talking a NAPA part regulator or a Big 4 Japanese bike regulator?
Both of which I should be able to buy off the shelf here in Yukon.

Will do the cable/ground/connection routine but I'm fairly confident everything is tight. I replaced spark boots and leads about 5k km ago.
One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 06:36:21 PM »
Are you sure the problem is with spark?  Yes, the R/R may well be over charging so that's worth checking and changing just as a long term precaution.  You say the engine started missing and then would quit running.  I'd look at fuel problems.  It's possible your fuel filter has sprung a leak.  Remember that the OEM filter is half metal and half plastic.  It's also possible that the filter is clogged.  Finally, water in the tank could cause these same symptoms.  Water molecules are large when compared to fuel and can actually block the tiny injector holes (per my diesel mechanic friend).

Peter Y.

hi Paul, I never gave fuel a thought because the interrupt would kick in when I released the clutch and, in effect, bump started the bike at speed. As long as the RPM was up the engine would run for a while. The it would die for a few hundred meters before kicking back in.
I will chase the electrics first but a new fuel filter probably is a good idea in a preventative sense. Not saying we never get crappy gas up here.
One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28103
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 08:43:49 PM »
Thanks Kev, I remember a thread fest on regulators. Are you talking a NAPA part regulator or a Big 4 Japanese bike regulator?
Both of which I should be able to buy off the shelf here in Yukon.

Will do the cable/ground/connection routine but I'm fairly confident everything is tight. I replaced spark boots and leads about 5k km ago.

JAPanInc.

I think this was our source if any of the reference numbers help.

https://www.roadstercycle.com/

« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 09:03:57 AM by Kev m »
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696
07 HD XL1200Lr

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 08:52:04 AM »
JAPanInc.

I think this was our source if any of the reference is numbers help.

https://www.roadstercycle.com/

Thanks Mate, interesting site ; ton of information.
... and you write about this stuff for a living.
If ever you are bored  :grin: a thread listing url for esoteric sites like this one would be a great resource.
One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 10:14:44 AM »
2013 V7 does not have a voltage display.
Oh, I saw both 23 and 26 inputs labeled Battery on the dash key
Then a cheap meter or Voltage display would be essential I think
Kev M included a link to Roadstercycle
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 10:26:13 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28103
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 10:16:58 AM »
Oh, I saw both 23 and 26 inputs labeled Battery on the dash key
Then a cheap meter or Voltage display would be essential I think

Without looking at the wiring diagram, might those inputs be warning light and maybe batt+ for dash functions?
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696
07 HD XL1200Lr

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 05:03:05 PM »
Last ride of last fall my 2013 V7 went intermittent while I was riding. The motor would just stop running while I was moving. Then it would kick back in for a while. Getting home in 4th gear to keep the revs up and even that 'trick' failed in the end and I coasted into my driveway.
 
Sooner or later you are going to have to start troubleshooting, we have nothing to go on.
Give the battery a good charge first then try and get it to crank over.
Note any error codes.
Other unexpected events.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 05:16:05 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2019, 12:04:17 PM »
I'm bringing back a little information and a couple more questions.  Yesterday I connected the tank and powered-up the bike. Fuel is flowing. I checked both plugs and they have spark. Spark & fuel seem to be key ingredients. I dug out an old notebook with Guzzidiag on it. Thinking fuel injection was a problem, I  set the drop-downs: the left injector read 78ms and the right was 80ms.
Voltage was 12.1 but dropped to 11 as the bike cranked. Side-stand switch was registering as 'out'.
Put the new battery on charge over night and will install the tank so there is access to fuel for combustion.

Kiwi-Roy, you wrote about relays for injectors in another thread (V7 Starts then cuts out). Have these relays been problematic? And with the injectors showing life in the software... are the relays relevant to this part of the conversation?
Now that I'm connected via GuzziDiag; which features in the drop-downs would be useful to look at?

Thanks as always.




One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Online malik

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1571
  • Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2019, 03:33:37 PM »
Maybe a bit out of left field, as the symptoms don't quite match, but do ensure that air filter is clean & there's no oil in the airbox.
2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
Carberry Enfield V-Twin, 2008 Royal Enfield Electra, 2006 RE Electra 535

Offline Moto Fugazzi

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1707
  • Waiting on a sign from God, or a nod from hell.
    • Griso
  • Location: Milwaukee
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2019, 07:20:57 PM »
Does the bike start and run while in neutral? Could be the side stand switch. Mine gets full of crud.

Wouldn't hurt to swap the relays, or buy new ones. Having spares is nice.

Make sure you have a proper ground wire attached to the regulator and the frame.

Check and see if the wire loom under the tank that runs to the dash is good. Could be a break in one of those wires, but very doubtful.
Ken
Ken
2004 V11 Cafe Sport
2009 V7C White
2007 Griso Black-Sold
1978 V50 II Blue-Sold

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2019, 02:47:18 AM »

Kiwi-Roy, you wrote about relays for injectors in another thread (V7 Starts then cuts out). Have these relays been problematic? And with the injectors showing life in the software... are the relays relevant to this part of the conversation?
Now that I'm connected via GuzziDiag; which features in the drop-downs would be useful to look at?

Thanks as always.
I don't know that they are particularly problematic but something is preventing yours from sparking, it might be a relay open, how would you know?
A simple $2 light will leave you in no doubt, much better than a multimeter or GuzziDiag for a simple fault, so visual.
It's particularly useful on the secondary injection relay (injectors & Spark)
Both lights should be On solid, not so much as a flicker, i would hazard a guess at least one of yours is trying to tell you something.
Once you have lights on your relays you would never go back to grouping in the dark LOL.

Send me a PM if you need any further explanation.
Cheers
Roy
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 03:12:52 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2019, 08:45:47 AM »
Last evening I reconnected the tank then turned the key to pressurize the fuel system. The bike fired to life for about 15 seconds before sputtering to a stop.

It appeared that pressurizing the system pushed fuel into the cylinders. As soon as it was burned off the fun stopped.
Does this make sense?

And now that it is April: we are expecting five inches of snow to arrive today.
One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28103
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2019, 09:38:00 AM »
Last evening I reconnected the tank then turned the key to pressurize the fuel system. The bike fired to life for about 15 seconds before sputtering to a stop.

It appeared that pressurizing the system pushed fuel into the cylinders. As soon as it was burned off the fun stopped.
Does this make sense?

And now that it is April: we are expecting five inches of snow to arrive today.

No, that doesn't make sense. The pressurized fuel would bleed off in 2-3 seconds at the most with the injectors firing, 15 seconds never happen unless the pump was still running.

What you need to figure out is WHAT killed it at 15 the seconds mark - some circuit opened - was it the pump, was it the ignition, was it a relay? etc.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696
07 HD XL1200Lr

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2019, 10:03:21 AM »
......................
What you need to figure out is WHAT killed it at 15 the seconds mark - some circuit opened - was it the pump, was it the ignition, was it a relay? etc.

My simple light from 87 to chassis is a permanent troubleshooting aid, it only draws power when the bike is On
I put one on every relay of my first Guzzi, the little light show made me smile.

Oops looking at Carl's drawing the relay pins are numbered differently
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Looking at relay 28/3 powers everything anywhere on that red/gray wire
2 coils, 2 injectors, 2 lambda probes and the fuel pump, wouldn't it be nice to know they have steady power?

A quick and dirty method is to wrap one lead of a 1k resistor around the 87 3 pin of the relay, the other end of the resistor goes to a short wire, to the long lead of an LED with the short lead grounded
Running through the resistor first ensures that it's difficult to short 87 3 to ground, the current is limited to 12 milliamps.
If you don't want to have anything permanent just tape it to the relay, find which of the coil pins is ground or run a jumper clip to chassis.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 10:55:12 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28103
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2019, 10:38:59 AM »
< said smart stuff, then fixed it so it was smarter >

Full disclosure. I kinda feel like most of us will never need your often mentioned relay lights.

That said, the second I was posting that answer I thought to myself - THIS IS THE PERFECT TIME FOR KR's RELAY LIGHTS...

 :embarrassed:
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 10:59:54 AM by Kev m »
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696
07 HD XL1200Lr

Offline Moto Fugazzi

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1707
  • Waiting on a sign from God, or a nod from hell.
    • Griso
  • Location: Milwaukee
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2019, 10:40:22 AM »
I'd check the fuel filter and the hoses in the tank. Maybe a hose is weak and it's collapsing on itself from the pressure. That just happened to me with my wife's 65 Mustang...it would run for a short bit, then the hose would suck closed. They were really soft.

If it's spark related, the timing sensor could be faulty as well. Guzzidiag would show that fault.
Ken
Ken
2004 V11 Cafe Sport
2009 V7C White
2007 Griso Black-Sold
1978 V50 II Blue-Sold

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2019, 10:56:41 AM »
Sorry Kev, I went back and edited my post :embarrassed:
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2019, 07:01:44 PM »
Thank you both gentlemen, I will go spelunking electrons this weekend.
One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Online Zoom Zoom

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10124
  • Northeast Ohio
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2019, 09:40:41 AM »
Another thought I had which is probably better answered by someone other than me: Could the crank sensor be failing? The ECU would shut down the spark if it thinks the motor isn't turning. Just a thought...

John Henry
A wide, unfettered road ahead,
and the flying motor singing.
Samuel C. Lancaster 1921

Offline Moto Fugazzi

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1707
  • Waiting on a sign from God, or a nod from hell.
    • Griso
  • Location: Milwaukee
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2019, 10:28:07 AM »
Another thought I had which is probably better answered by someone other than me: Could the crank sensor be failing? The ECU would shut down the spark if it thinks the motor isn't turning. Just a thought...

John Henry

I mentioned that earlier. A friends Guzzi had that happen last year, and Guzzidiag found the proper code. If the sensor gets full of metal shavings the sensor probably won't work properly and then you have 2 issues to deal with...
Ken
Ken
2004 V11 Cafe Sport
2009 V7C White
2007 Griso Black-Sold
1978 V50 II Blue-Sold

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2019, 02:13:22 AM »
Another thought I had which is probably better answered by someone other than me: Could the crank sensor be failing? The ECU would shut down the spark if it thinks the motor isn't turning. Just a thought...

John Henry
And a good thought too, my $2 relay light AKA "Go Winkie" would flash back at you, Hahha

The light would be tucked away out of site and just pulled out for times like this, I had mine under the seat.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 02:27:29 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline Yukonica

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
    • Borealbreeze Bernese Mountain Dogs
  • Location: Yukon Territory, Canada
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2019, 02:59:39 PM »
And a good thought too, my $2 relay light AKA "Go Winkie" would flash back at you, Hahha

The light would be tucked away out of site and just pulled out for times like this, I had mine under the seat.

I know I live in a remote place when....  So far I haven't been able to buy a resistor nor the LED light for 2 bucks or for 10.
Finding automotive test lights is easy. Parts to build electrical stuff; online only so far.
I will persevere.


One may write one's destiny but the unknown delivers it.

Online Kiwi_Roy

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6963
Re: V7 electrics; no spark
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2019, 07:04:03 AM »
Looking at the diagram i wondered what could possibly cause the bike to cut out for no reason
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Double click on Carl's schematic to zoom in.

The Sidestand switch perhaps, they have always been a bit flakey sometime half on, it would run in Neutral but cut out in gear, you could try shorting that.
The revolution sensor (37) failing would tell the Injection relay (28) to drop out (so would the side (27) stand I believe), you can see how important the Red/Grey wire from the relay is, the relay pin is probably the easiest place to access that.
The Pull Up resistor (21) might cause the engine to quit if it was open circuit but I think it's more of a cranking interlock, Kev will know.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 07:27:52 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

 


Advertise your products today. All proceeds go back into this website.
Your ad will show up over 10,000 times daily!
Advertise Here