Something to think about......

[pete roper]

If you are thinking of buying a new Guzzi in Oz.

Ive been trying to help out a bloke with a flat tappet Stelvio who was having trouble getting anybody to inspect it for damage. Eventually his shop stripped the LH cambox, a fifteen minute job they charged him $490 for and found this.



A warranty claim was submitted to our dear importer and the bloke who handles claims knocked it back. Why? Because the bike has no service history? Nope! It's too old? Nope!

It got knocked back because the wear wasn't 'Bad enough'. He didn't even bother submitting a claim to the factory I'd bet because I've had plenty will less damage than that approved.

These are the mob who will be handling any 'Teething Problems' with the V85! Good luck with that. I sure hope they don't shed the heads off their fancy Ti valves like RSV4's do. That probably wouldn't be 'Bad enough' for a warranty claim either!

[ohiorider]

Pete, that is pathetic on the part of Guzzi/Piaggio.  This has been a known problem for several years.  By this time, it should have been acknowledged that all of the flat tappet engines are going to fail.  Just come up with a warranty plan and make those owners who spent good money buying one of these bikes whole.

The same should have happened with owners of CARC bikes with defective dash boards.  I'm not even suggesting that Guzzi replace them for the life of the bike.  But, damn, please come up with a plan that at least makes owners feel like you give a damn (if you do.)  Offer the dash boards to owners at your cost from Digitek.  BTW, I've sent Digitek at least three letters, asking them to contact me.  Guess what?  A big nada!

Bob

[oldbike54]

 Well that sux .

 Dusty

[pete roper]

Pete, that is pathetic on the part of Guzzi/Piaggio.  This has been a known problem for several years.  By this time, it should have been acknowledged that all of the flat tappet engines are going to fail.  Just come up with a warranty plan and make those owners who spent good money buying one of these bikes whole.

The same should have happened with owners of CARC bikes with defective dash boards.  I'm not even suggesting that Guzzi replace them for the life of the bike.  But, damn, please come up with a plan that at least makes owners feel like you give a damn (if you do.)  Offer the dash boards to owners at your cost from Digitek.  BTW, I've sent Digitek at least three letters, asking them to contact me.  Guess what?  A big nada!

Bob

In this case Bob it's pathetic on the part of the importer but I'm really not surprised. V85 is a $22K motorbike over here. You'd expect some sort of customer service.

[guzzisteve]

Report that dealer Pete, call their bluff. That is only fair w/the dealer is screwing people.

[Pizza Guzzi]

What a disgrace ! There's a case that could be made through Consumer Affairs but why the hell should you have to buggerise around with that just to get your rightful entitlement !
Don't worry about trying not to jeapordise the warranty on a new bike - there effectively isn't one.
A pox on the Aussie distributor !

Glenn

[Pizza Guzzi]

 I sure hope they don't shed the heads off their fancy Ti valves like RSV4's do. That probably wouldn't be 'Bad enough' for a warranty claim either!
[/quote]

I'm sure any valve failures will be put down to the owner over revving the motor - claim denied !

Glenn

[pete roper]

Well the V85 costing $22K makes me think for only a couple of grand more I could have a Vitpillen and a Superdual, both of which are far more interesting to me. For all I know their distributors may be shit as well but I never expect warranty to be worth the paper it's written on anyway.

Pete

[tris]

I find the whole 8V flat tappet quite puzzling

I was in a reputable Guzzi dealership a couple of weeks ago and got talking to the owner, initially about the V85 and then more generally

I asked him a specific question "do you think the flat tappet problem damaged Moto Guzzis reputation"

His reply intrigues me stating that they had only done 4 rolerizations and one of them was because the owner of the bike insisted on it - implying it wasn't as big a problem as maybe perceived

Now he may be embroidering on the truth, but I know that my judgement was skewed (Pete may recall that I shied away from a 8V bike when I came to replace my old Cali following his advice) due to this festering issue

Is there any evidence to suggest that (for example) bikes that operate in hot climates with long fast roads (US or AUS perhaps) are more susceptible  to flat tappet damage than bikes in colder climes with less opportunity for extended WOT operation (UK/Europe)?

[pete roper]

No.

[Zoom Zoom]

Like Pete said!

My Stelvio was always serviced with the correct oil, (Ajip 10W-60), always either met or exceeded the correct interval, and ridden in varying ways. In other words, no adverse conditions on any ongoing basis. There were signs of wear. Although this has been beat into the ground over and over, it is an issue that will eventually cause trouble. Ignoring it will not make it go away, no matter how much a dealer, or importer, or Guzzi themselves say it is okay.

Now, due to age, (that is to say the passing of time since the last flat tappet bikes came out), Piaggio may have ceased support on this issue, IDK. At some point, the parts are likely to dry up as well.

John Henry   

[Sasquatch Jim]

Shades of 2003 hydraulic lifters!

[janguzzi]

 I think the real reasons for the flat tappet problem was never found or published.
To my knowledge one theory is less zinc and phosphorus in modern oil in combination with flat tappets. 

[Lannis]

That's why my Stelvio has a Triumph Trophy as a garage mate now.

My Guzzi dealer had taken my Stelvio lifters out at 40,000 miles and they looked JUST like that.   They took photos, sent them to Guzzi/Piaggio, and the replacement kit had been refused because the surface of the tappets had not come completely off yet and destroyed the engine with DLC flakes.

So we (the dealer and I) got on the phone with Guzzi to explain.   When Fay heard all the "leaning backward" from the other end, and the "my wife she ... my dog it ..." excuses they were making as to why they shouldn't have to provide a "C" kit to fix the bike, she left in disgust and went roaming the showroom ... and the upshot was that we ended up with a new Triumph the next week.

At the same time, threats, persuasion, and personal charm had triumphed over the green eyeshades at Guzzi, the kit came, and the Stelvio was fixed.

But I'll be honest; although I enjoy my Guzzis, both the four that I've sold, the two I have now, and the ones I'll buy in future, I really don't give a rip if Guzzi goes clean out of business tomorrow.   

I buy Guzzis because they are (or have been) simple, reliable, air-cooled, old-fashioned bikes.   The bikes they've made to date generally meet that criteria, the big ones have more power than I ever use, the mid-size ones are just about an overall perfect size for anything except 2-up transcontinental touring, and the vintage ones are still tons of fun.

The tens of thousands of Guzzis already on the ground fill every need I or my kids might have.   I can't imagine that Guzzi will do anything in the future (electric, water-cooled, wipe-your-butt-for-you automation, more cylinders, etc etc) that would improve that situation for me ...

Lannis

[Lcarlson]

I find the whole 8V flat tappet quite puzzling

I was in a reputable Guzzi dealership a couple of weeks ago and got talking to the owner, initially about the V85 and then more generally

I asked him a specific question "do you think the flat tappet problem damaged Moto Guzzis reputation"

His reply intrigues me stating that they had only done 4 rolerizations and one of them was because the owner of the bike insisted on it - implying it wasn't as big a problem as maybe perceived

Now he may be embroidering on the truth, but I know that my judgement was skewed (Pete may recall that I shied away from a 8V bike when I came to replace my old Cali following his advice) due to this festering issue

Is there any evidence to suggest that (for example) bikes that operate in hot climates with long fast roads (US or AUS perhaps) are more susceptible  to flat tappet damage than bikes in colder climes with less opportunity for extended WOT operation (UK/Europe)?

 Interesting. My dealer, Jim Hamlin, also told me that the flat tappet issue wasn’t all that significant a problem as well.

[pete roper]

Interesting. My dealer, Jim Hamlin, also told me that the flat tappet issue wasn’t all that significant a problem as well.

And I'm afraid that the people who say that are the ones who don't look. As soon as you do look it becomes immediately apparent that the failure rate is 100%. Just because it isn't making a horrible noise doesn't mean it isn't destroying itself.

And no, it has nothing to do with the amount of ZDDP in the lubricant.

[Lannis]

I find the whole 8V flat tappet quite puzzling....

The thing that's puzzling is that some dealers don't recognize the flat-tappet issue as a problem.

That's the value of a list like this, and knowing real people with real-world experience.

A challenge question - Is there ANY 2008 - 2012 8 valve Guzzi engine with flat tappets that has survived any significant mileage without self-destructing?   ANY at all?   Regardless of heat, oil type, zinc, whatever, has ANY 8v Guzzi engine of that vintage survived?   

If someone on this statistically-significant number of contributors on this list can say "Yes", then that's the first time we will have heard it.   I might even venture to say that the 40,000 miles that MY 2009 8-valve survived without shedding the DLC on the tappet face MIGHT be a record in the Guzzi world ...

Dealers in the year of our Lord 2019 that don't know about the issue and realize how significant it is are either ignorant, incompetent, or lying to you.  It was all very well 8 or 9 years ago when the first failure or two showed up - even our own Pete R. thought it was a fluke at first.   But for him or anyone else keeping their eye on the ball, they soon realized that it's ALL of the flat tappet 8 valves of that vintage, not just a few ...

Lannis

[pete roper]

I'll bet you London to a brick that all the salesmen will suddenly know about the problem if you decide to try and get a reasonable trade in on your current 8V against a V85. I'll also happily wager that all 8V's will be tarred with the same brush regardless if they were pre or post roller production.

[lucian]

Here's an interesting study on why DLC fails in certain applications I had bookmarked from 2016.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ppap.200930004

[Markcarovilli]

I'll bet you London to a brick that all the salesmen will suddenly know about the problem if you decide to try and get a reasonable trade in on your current 8V against a V85. I'll also happily wager that all 8V's will be tarred with the same brush regardless if they were pre or post roller production.

How absolutely correct you are Pete.  Being a salesman most of my life, I would jump on that in a minute. 

Side note - can’t believe we are still trashing this around - would anybody buy an Ambo, Eldo, T, T-3, etc without being worried about chrome bores....

Nevermind there are still plenty out there that don’t acknowledge the problem. BTW my factory rollered Stelvio (2012) is wonderful.

Mark

[bad Chad]

"Help me, I'm falling...through a hole in the flag....."  Hair.

[guzzisteve]

Pete, Maybe you should put up the pic's from under the microscope.

[pete roper]

I can do that again if anyone's interested but it will just provoke the same old, wrong, arguments about ZDDP and a load of irrelevant tosh about smallblock Chevs.

Pete

[pete mcgee]

Ah moto guzzi importers in oz.
The only prerequisite for this position is the ability to snatch defeat from thepossibility of victory at every turn.
Which probably explains why blokes like Mario at thunderbikes do so well.
Seems nothing has changed over the last 32 years I've owned one.

[pete roper]

Samples had their faults but during my time as an 'Official' agent I only ever had a couple of knock-down-drag-out fights with them and they were always about stupid stuff I inherited from other dealers. Bikes sent out with no gearbox and final drive oil that came to me for their first service and the selling dealer stating that since the bike was in 'my area' I should do the 'Warranty work'! Warranty? When did fixing their huge, monumental fugue-up become a warranty issue!

When PS took over I received a huge legal document that basically said that I would essentially cease to be an independent business and would do anything and everything they damn well told me to! If I didn't like it too bad! This of course only extended to my responsibilities to them! They had none to me and if anything happened they would drop me like a warm turd and wash their hands of me! I may be a lot of things but I'm not stupid!

My suspicions were confirmed when bikes started being sold out of Sydney and Melbourne into Canberra and I started hearing stories from other shop owners in Canberra of stuff like Cali 1400's arriving from Melbourne after the ride back with bits falling off or serious acid damage from wrongly prepped batteries. Never have I been so convinced I had made the right decision! If I'd still been a service agent I would have had to put up with all these shouting, angry customers who had bought poorly prepped bits of shit and would of been expected to fix them for nothing! As it is the last few years, at least until Michael injured himself, have been the most lucrative and stress free Motomoda has ever had!

I'm still working on new stuff, it's not a problem, there are only a couple of things I can't do with Guzzidiag that PADS is required for but I now have the added benefit of if the owners of these vehicles are tardy payers or in other ways pestilential I simply sack them on the spot and the problem disappears!

Pete

[malik]

Interesting. My dealer, Jim Hamlin, also told me that the flat tappet issue wasn’t all that significant a problem as well.

And then there was that shop in Christchurch (NZ) some years back who dropped the Guzzi dealership because the GRiSO made it seriously uneconomic.

[pete roper]

I can think of at least one well known Guzzi 'Specialist' in Oz who proudly declares he knows absolutely nothing about fuel injection! Given that the firm hasn't made a bike with carburettors for over twenty years you'd think that might be a bit of a problem? Apparently not! Plenty of others too who treat it as some kind of 'White man Ju-Ju' as well.

It's all very well being afraid of the future but being afraid of the present and wishing we could retreat to a simpler past that can only be seen through rose tinted specs is downright bonkers!

Pete

[Aaron D.]

I think the root cause has been modern cam profiles-this same thing has occurred as auto makers moved to high pressure fuel systems. The pumps were driven by a cam/flat tappet arrangement that caused some serious problems.

As far as I know they have all gone to a roller setup.

[Tusayan]

I can think of at least one well known Guzzi 'Specialist' in Oz who proudly declares he knows absolutely nothing about fuel injection! Given that the firm hasn't made a bike with carburettors for over twenty years you'd think that might be a bit of a problem? Apparently not! Plenty of others too who treat it as some kind of 'White man Ju-Ju' as well.

It's all very well being afraid of the future but being afraid of the present and wishing we could retreat to a simpler past that can only be seen through rose tinted specs is downright bonkers!

I think most people have left behind technosocial mono-vision as a model for for the future, and even more so old fashioned Edwardian-style social policemen.

It makes sense to choose technology from first principles, judging machines on their merits in relation to the intended service and personal taste. For me that could be anything, old, brand new or in between.  The only thing that matters is what you want to do, what can do it and how much it costs. Freedom and building the resources to do it your way, not anybody else’s, is the more modern view of the present and future relative to slavish consumerism and crude social pressure.  Many people now find those things offensive, or at least outmoded.

It does anyway sound like at least one Australian Guzzi business has found a market of people who see things their own way and can afford to do it their own way.

That's what I'm thinking about in relation to this thread 

[stubbie]

I have been told that the Aust distributor has been making it very difficult to get warranty done on this issue.