Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT

[jas67]

Wow, Jim, that is looking NICE!   
Of course, we've come to expect nothing less from you 

Yeah figured so, the new ones come as a set and are damn expensive at $479.00

https://store.bevelheaven.com/Engine-Related/Bevel-Gear-Set-Upper-860-900/

YIKES!

That stings, but, I know you know what to do.   $$$$$
Same thing I did when I was going my Eldorado -- close my eyes to the $$$ until it is done.

[dguzzi]

Add it to the list. Whew....slows me down.....

[canuck750]

YIKES!
That stings, but, I know you know what to do.   $$$$$
Same thing I did when I was going my Eldorado -- close my eyes to the $$$ until it is done.

Well the good news, sorta, is Bevel Heaven is having a 30% off Sale on all Domi Racer stock including the bevel gear set, closed my eyes and hit the pay tab, sure hope this is the end of it but I kinda doubt it....

I flushed out the crankcase with varsol a couple times, tipped the motor over and blew everything out as best I could, no sign of the chips off the gear, the heads have been off before so perhaps the chipped gear predates the last time the heads were off

I opened up the sludge traps, they are on the face of the crank counter weight, one side only, two traps, glad I did the plugs were quite loose and there was about  1/2" of sludge in each one, plug remove and this is what I found



I taped a piece of rubber hose to my shop vac and pried out the sludge while vacuuming the sludge trap and blew brake cleaner into the cavity until it was clean

Thats more like it



Blue locktite around the trap plugs

I wet honed the cylinders, I use WD40 as a lubricant. seems to work well

New set of rings and pin clips



heat gun to warm the piston to allow the pin to press in by hand



One of the hollow pins went missing, made a new one on the lathe out of stainless rod


New base gaskets and slide the cylinders over the pistons


My old ring compressor I bought a long time ago off Ebay, still works great



Ducati seals the cylinder to head with O rings only, that and the mating flange of the cylinder to head



heads back on, they will need to be loosened off to get the bevel train back on



I have been reading up on how crappy the original Ducati ignition was (is) and the options to replace with a modern electronic ignition, unfortunately none of the options are cheap, I am going to stick with stock for now, the bike did run before I stripped it down, hopefully with the rebuilt carbs, new plugs and high tension leads and the fresh valve job it will be an easy starter......

[Chuck in Indiana]

I have been reading up on how crappy the original Ducati ignition was (is)

That's where I learned that carburation problems are generally ignition the first time. 

[canuck750]

That's where I learned that carburation problems are generally ignition the first time. 

I just priced out a replacement ignition, by the time I add the new coils its another grand Its looking more like the black hole of Ducati every day.

https://www.elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/digital-ignition-zdg-3-23-for-ducati-beveldrive-ducati-electronica-electric-starter.html

I have no experience with this Sachse ignition but I have heard it is good quality. Other than a decent advance curve should I expect to see any other real world improvements?, for instance will it be an easier bike to start, mine is the kick start only model, smoother running etc...????

[Glawster]

I would recommend you replace the standard ignition with Sachse.
I had a brand new GTS in 1978 and one of the memories was that it was very jerky below 2,800, particularly in high gears.  In 2013 I rebuild another GTS pretty much from scrap and I used a Sachse system.  I could not believe how smoothly it ran, even with 35 year old carburetors.  It comes with a control box which I mounted under the tank.  There's a number of preset ignition curves available, but I never even tried changing from the recommended one as the bike ran so well.
It was a little fiddly to set up as it involved working in the dark, but I never touched it again.


DSC_0224 by Derek Wardell, on Flickr

DSC_0234 by Derek Wardell, on Flickr

[canuck750]

I would recommend you replace the standard ignition with Sachse.
I had a brand new GTS in 1978 and one of the memories was that it was very jerky below 2,800, particularly in high gears.  In 2013 I rebuild another GTS pretty much from scrap and I used a Sachse system.  I could not believe how smoothly it ran, even with 35 year old carburetors.  It comes with a control box which I mounted under the tank.  There's a number of preset ignition curves available, but I never even tried changing from the recommended one as the bike ran so well.
It was a little fiddly to set up as it involved working in the dark, but I never touched it again.

DSC_0224 by Derek Wardell, on Flickr

DSC_0234 by Derek Wardell, on Flickr

Thanks for the advice! I am going to order the Sasche kit.
What did you do with the engine stop switch, did you wire it up to act as regular battery / coil ignition bike kill switch?
I have read it is  hard to get the original gear and flywheel off, did you have to use the factory three leg puler?

[Glawster]

I had no wiring loom so I had to start from scratch.  So all that gubbins in the headlight wasn't used in my case.  Make sure you get the right kit from Sachse.  From memory there are different ones for kickstart and electric start and then there's a 3rd type for the Darmah engine to replace the Bosch system.
I had 2 engines.  One of which gave up the primary gear very easily with a puller.  On the one below I had to have it cut off, but it had been open to the elements for 13 years!  Good luck!

DSC_0044 by Derek Wardell, on Flickr

[canuck750]

I am waiting for the new bevel gear set to come from California and decided to check the cam support bearings more carefully, two have a slight nick in them, hardly there but enough to warrant replacement, new ones are under $9.00 each, six new ones picked up and fitted.


The nicked bearings come out of the top cylinder, same one with the chipped gear, chicken or egg question or are both the worn bearings and chipped gear a sign of the same problem? I wonder if the cam lubrication, especially on the top cylinder prone to weak oil pressure?

A few little rubber bits to attend to, cover boot for the front brake pressure switch



Rubber bushings around the brake line fitting where the hose passes through the fender bracket



Steve Allan had a complete original horn relay with the attached signal light flasher, little steel clip fits over a steel tab attached to the headlight bucket


All the bucket wiring is done



headlight relay



stop switch


and the headlight ring and lamp fitted



I ordered a gel battery sized to fit the original rubber battery tray, hopefully all the new electronics work, fingers crossed.

spent a couple hours sanding the nicks out of the cast alloy engine case side covers today, now to polish them up, knocking off a few more jobs one at a time....

[SmithSwede]

Beautiful work.  Thanks for posting all the pictures and details. 

But what we really want to know is what kind of motor oil is best for your “new” bike?

 

[canuck750]

But what we really want to know is what kind of motor oil is best for your “new” bike?
 

Engine oil?? I am still looking for the transmission and rear drive fill plug 



Finished cleaning up the engine side case covers, lots of dings and scratches, some deeper than others, as delivered, not too bad at all



Polishing alone got them to look like this, no matter how much polishing these deep gouges will not come out

I sanded them down with an air sander, random orbital foam pad, begin with 150 grit and sand out the dings and scratches


The sanding scratches are to be expected with 150 but it makes the job so much easier to begin with a course grit


Then go over it all again with 250 grit


I then vapour blasted them to hone the surface, if I did not have a vapour blaster I would do a final 400 grit sand

On to the rouge polish on the buffing wheel

Right side finished, left just vapour blasted



This is after about six hours of sanding and polishing




I don't want it to shine as bright as chrome, I bet these are already much brighter than the day they left the factory

45 years of rock dings and corrosion sanded and polished away



While I had the covers off I stripped the gear selector mechanism, as expected pretty dirty, nothing bent or broken, just a clean and lube and it rotates nicely

[jas67]

Oh wow, nice!   I need to do my 750GT covers like that.
Too bad I don't have a vapor blaster.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oh wow, nice!   I need to do my 750GT covers like that.
Too bad I don't have a vapor blaster.

You don't really *need* one. Just continue sanding with 400 paper before buffing. The vapor hone just speeds up the process. Until you do the labor to get rid of the scratches, polishing just makes shiny scratches. 

[canuck750]

Oh wow, nice!   I need to do my 750GT covers like that.
Too bad I don't have a vapor blaster.

A small electric palm sander with a foam pad will do the job, no need for a vapour blaster, use 150 , 250 and then 400.

Use the 150 grit until the scratch or gouge is removed. It can take a hour to cut out one cover and sand it smooth. There is a lot of aluminum on these covers so you can cut a lot of aluminum off. The finer grit is used to remove the fine scrtaches from the 150 grit. I could have sanded for a couple more hours to get rid of every tiny pit but decided to stop when I did, some pits are just too deep in my opinion to sand all of them out.

Put on some good music in your ear buds and go for it.

[Muzz]

Wow!

I did (years ago) the cases on my C100 stepthrough after the silver paint oxidised the cases badly with graduated wet and dry.  Actually did them in a bath of water.  Took forever but made it so much easier to keep the motor clean afterwards.

[jas67]

A small electric palm sander with a foam pad will do the job, no need for a vapour blaster, use 150 , 250 and then 400.

Use the 150 grit until the scratch or gouge is removed. It can take a hour to cut out one cover and sand it smooth. There is a lot of aluminum on these covers so you can cut a lot of aluminum off. The finer grit is used to remove the fine scrtaches from the 150 grit. I could have sanded for a couple more hours to get rid of every tiny pit but decided to stop when I did, some pits are just too deep in my opinion to sand all of them out.

Put on some good music in your ear buds and go for it.

Yes, I've done that process, actually up through 1200 grit.   Works great on flat or convex surfaces, but, concave surfaces, and those with features such as the external strengthening ribs on Honda brake drum panels need to be done by hand, which is very time consuming and tedious.     The vapor blast would definitely make that process go more quickly.

[Chuck in Indiana]

One of my hats back in the day was moldmaker. I can tell you a lot about

very time consuming and tedious.   

polishing of molds. 

[canuck750]

Yes, I've done that process, actually up through 1200 grit.   Works great on flat or convex surfaces, but, concave surfaces, and those with features such as the external strengthening ribs on Honda brake drum panels need to be done by hand, which is very time consuming and tedious.     The vapor blast would definitely make that process go more quickly.

Agreed!, concave, webbed and recessed surfaces are very difficult and time consuming. Vapour blasted surfaces definitely cut down the sanding time, might be worth it to send your Ducati 750 GT engine covers out to be vapour blasted. If you do I would recommend sanding as much as you can prior to vapour blasting.
If you trust the security of the Canadian / American mail system you could send them to me and I would vapour blast them for you, would be happy do clean them up for you.

Cheers

Jim

[jas67]

Agreed!, concave, webbed and recessed surfaces are very difficult and time consuming. Vapour blasted surfaces definitely cut down the sanding time, might be worth it to send your Ducati 750 GT engine covers out to be vapour blasted. If you do I would recommend sanding as much as you can prior to vapour blasting.
If you trust the security of the Canadian / American mail system you could send them to me and I would vapour blast them for you, would be happy do clean them up for you.

Cheers

Jim

I appreciate the offer, Jim, but, you make a very good point about trusting the mail system.    I don't even want to know what a set of cases for a round case bevel twin cost to replace.    I'm more inclined to find someone local I can drive them to.    They actually look OK as they are, but, someday, I'd like to polish them.   They currently have sort of a brush finish.   Before I take the time to polish them, I need to find the oil leak that it's got, and fix that.

[canuck750]

I appreciate the offer, Jim, but, you make a very good point about trusting the mail system.    I don't even want to know what a set of cases for a round case bevel twin cost to replace.    I'm more inclined to find someone local I can drive them to.    They actually look OK as they are, but, someday, I'd like to polish them.   They currently have sort of a brush finish.   Before I take the time to polish them, I need to find the oil leak that it's got, and fix that.

I know I wouldn't trust mailing those 750 GT engine case covers, replacing them would be very, very pricey!

[canuck750]

I got the lump back into the chassis, tilted the engine to get the lower rear mount bolt in then lifted the engine by the front to get the front bolt through, damn heavy lump it is!





Cables, levers, pedals etc going back on



seems like everything is fitting like it should, I am looking at old magazine articles, google etc to try and figure out how all the cables and electrical are supposed to be routed



Lots of fettling to do and to hang the exhaust as well

[s1120]

Looking amazing!!!  Huge milestone

[jas67]

Very nice job indeed -- looks better than new!

[jwinwi]

Thank you for taking us to the Dark Side. As usual, very nice work Jim. 

[SmithSwede]

I can’t wait until you get this beast up, running, and on the road.   These Ducatis are just super cool. 

[canuck750]

I can’t wait until you get this beast up, running, and on the road.   These Ducatis are just super cool.

Me too! really looking forward to experiencing the bevel, twin, the wide tall handlebars of the 860 GT suits an old bugger such as myself just fine. It has decent brakes, enough power and is fairly light. Hopefully when I install the new Sasche electronic ignition it will be an easy starter and wont kick back.

[Glawster]

You'll love it.  The perfect smoothness and linear power from the engine is fantastic.  The downside is that they are an absolute money pit to rebuild and maintain - but you already know that.
Best day out for me was 200 miles down the Mull of Kintyre from Inverary to Campbeltown and back.  Out on my GTS and back on my mate's GT.  Marvelous!

DSC_1847 by Derek Wardell, on Flickr

[canuck750]

You'll love it.  The perfect smoothness and linear power from the engine is fantastic.  The downside is that they are an absolute money pit to rebuild and maintain - but you already know that.

Looking forward to a rewarding ride, It has become a bit of a money pit but no worse than the Morini 500 that kept sucking $$$ out of my wallet.

I got the exhaust on today, original headers and cross over re=chromed and Charlie put me on to a pair of very nice used mufflers a friend of his was selling, the mufflers are in unbelievable original condition.



LaFranconi mufflers







I hooked up the battery with an inline 30 amp fuse between the battery and fuse box

Surprisingly most things work!

The headlight high and low beam, tail light, brake light, instrument lights, idiot lights and signal lights all work, I have short in the horn relay or horn City / Country circuit plug in the horn and the fuse blows and when I plug the red wire from the stator into the regulator / rectifier a fuse blows, maybe a short in the stator or in the ref/rec???

There is a local fellow who advertises rewinding motorcycle stators, I think I will take the stator to him to check it out and if need be rewind it.

[Tusayan]

It’s looking great and it’ll be terrific to read of it running soon.

The seamed LaFranconi silencers are relatively easy to find in NOS condition.  Almost everybody took them off and some SSs of the era came with a set of Contis in the crate to replace them.  I used to have two pairs but used one set on a late Darmah - Contis were too loud for that bike and I liked them a bit better than the huge Silentiums.

[canuck750]

It’s looking great and it’ll be terrific to read of it running soon.

The seamed LaFranconi silencers are relatively easy to find in NOS condition.  Almost everybody took them off and some SSs of the era came with a set of Contis in the crate to replace them.  I used to have two pairs but used one set on a late Darmah - Contis were too loud for that bike and I liked them a bit better than the huge Silentiums.

The bike came with Contis but I found them tp be pretty loud! I don't mind the look of the seamed LaFranconi's and if I find them too tame I can put the Contis back on.

A little detail came in the mail today from Phil Hitchcock's Road and Race shop in Australia, a foil decal for under seat, real nice reproduction

http://roadandrace.com.au/cat06.htm



Almost there for the Vintage bike display in the  International Motorcycle Show when it come to town in a couple weeks



The electronic ignition kit also came in the mail from Back to Classics in the Netherlands, for the kick start only models

https://www.ducaticlassics.com/ducati/079446100/electronic-ignition-system

I was going to hold off until after the bike show but I think I will go ahead and install the kit and new Dyna mini coils. Looks easy enough to install but the clutch has to come off and the old rotor and ignition.