Griso - wet misfire, again.

[Trogladyte]

I thought I had finally cured this, but after washing the bike yesterday, it seems not.

Bike is a 2008 Griso 1200 8v.

Symptoms - when it gets wet, it misses on the right hand side. It runs on one, until there is a wide throttle opening/higher revs, when it suddenly kicks onto two.

I thought I'd cured it twice. 1st time I replaced the plug, NGK plug cap, and HT lead. It then ran fine with a hose pouring water onto the r/h side. Until it didn't and started missing again. So I noticed that the plastic plug on the injector was cracked, so I replaced the injector.

Again all was well for a while. But after washing the bike yesterday, the old symptoms were back again. I took the plug cap off, and plug out. The boot and plug cap were bone dry, but I gave them a good clean. Also took the ht lead out, cleaned and dried connection, and reassembled. Took the lt plug off the coil, dried, cleaned and reassembled.

I still have an issue. It is better than it was, but still intermittently going onto one, then kicking back in as revs rise. Although oddly, it runs on two at idle.

What's next? I feel a bit stumped.

[Trogladyte]

Incidentally I have posted about this before.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=90674.0

I should probably have gone back to the original thread. But there's the link. In that thread I had incorrectly described it as l/h misfire. it's definitely right hand side.

[pete roper]

It's obviously related to water ingress somewhere on the high tension side. Stop bloody washing it!

[Dilliw]

Bummer.  When you swapped the caps did you get the right seals?  In the U.S. we don't get the SD05E which has the proper boot on the end.   The NGK caps cured my bike's alergic reaction to water.

[Trogladyte]

It's obviously related to water ingress somewhere on the high tension side. Stop bloody washing it!

Yeah...it does it in the rain sometimes too.

But is it on the HT side? I have replaced everything but the coil. That, and the way it cuts in at higher throttle openings is starting to make me suspect injectors rather than HT. I've replaced the injector. Could it be the injector wiring? How would I check?

This is starting to drive me slightly loopy-loo. I was probably a bit that way already, so this isn't good.

[Trogladyte]

Bummer.  When you swapped the caps did you get the right seals?  In the U.S. we don't get the SD05E which has the proper boot on the end.   The NGK caps cured my bike's alergic reaction to water.

I've got the NGKs, but not the right boots. But I don't think the problem is in this area. I took the cap off yesterday, when the problem occurred, and it was bone dry. I cleaned it all up anyway, including the plug, but the problem persisted.

If the problem is spark rather than fuel, it can only be the coil.

[Dilliw]

I've got the NGKs, but not the right boots. But I don't think the problem is in this area. I took the cap off yesterday, when the problem occurred, and it was bone dry. I cleaned it all up anyway, including the plug, but the problem persisted.

If the problem is spark rather than fuel, it can only be the coil.

Just to be sure I'd order the SD05F caps and swap the boots off.  It's cheap insurance.

Wouldn't it light a code if it were the coil?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I've got the NGKs, but not the right boots. But I don't think the problem is in this area. I took the cap off yesterday, when the problem occurred, and it was bone dry. I cleaned it all up anyway, including the plug, but the problem persisted.

If the problem is spark rather than fuel, it can only be the coil.

Sounds as though you have tried everything
The spark has a harder job jumping the plug gap with more throttle so it will find an easier path
Di-electric grease on the plug boots and wherever the cable connects will exclude moisture.
Try swapping components from one side to the other.
I don't think water would effect the injectors but make sure there is no corrosion in the connectors I would use Vaseline there.

Wait a minute the Griso has double ended coils with two plugs per cylinder, the inner ones are hard to get at have you cleaned those.
While you have it apart measure the resistance from inner cap to outer cap, both sides should be identical.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2006_Griso_1100.gif  Items 40 thru 45

[Tom H]

Have you tried a trigger spray bottle of water to help narrow down the area that is causing the problem when wet? Also when wet, have the bike in a dark place, you might see arcing?

Just a thought,
Tom

[Trogladyte]

Sounds as though you have tried everything
The spark has a harder job jumping the plug gap with more throttle so it will find an easier path
Di-electric grease on the plug boots and wherever the cable connects will exclude moisture.
Try swapping components from one side to the other.
I don't think water would effect the injectors but make sure there is no corrosion in the connectors I would use Vaseline there.

Wait a minute the Griso has double ended coils with two plugs per cylinder, the inner ones are hard to get at have you cleaned those.
While you have it apart measure the resistance from inner cap to outer cap, both sides should be identical.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2006_Griso_1100.gif  Items 40 thru 45

This is a 1200, so single plug.

I had just about convinced myself that this was an injector problem rather than HT. I cleaned up the connector to the r/h injector (again) this evening. The rubber boot is perished and split, so i taped that up - but the wiring looks sound anyway.

I'm starting to think HT again.

I think I might swap the coils and see if the problem goes with the coil.

I rode it to work today. I had a fair bit of missfiring on the way in, but it was much better, and almost back to normal on the way home. So whatever has suffered from water ingress takes a while to dry.

[Kiwi_Roy]

This is a 1200, so single plug.
 

Ok, then measure from each plug cap to chassis, both sides the same, i'm guessing 8,000 Ohms
This will confirm the coils and leads are connected

I don't think it will be a coil, sounds more like something shorting, I like Tom H's idea

[Trogladyte]

Ok, then measure from each plug cap to chassis, both sides the same, i'm guessing 8,000 Ohms
This will confirm the coils and leads are connected

I don't think it will be a coil, sounds more like something shorting, I like Tom H's idea

|I have actually done that. No sign of sparks in the dark. And it ran fine with a hose on it after I replaced the HT leads and plug caps.

But the problem has returned.

I'll try again.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I looked through your earlier posting, this caught my eye.

I paid particular attention the left hand injector wiring. The contacts did have some mild corrosion.

Perhaps there lies the problem, some resistance causing the connector to change when wet, the injector wiring needs to be perfect because the injector pulses are very short and high current.
You already changed the injector perhaps it was the plug?

[Trogladyte]

I looked through your earlier posting, this caught my eye.

I paid particular attention the left hand injector wiring. The contacts did have some mild corrosion.

Perhaps there lies the problem, some resistance causing the connector to change when wet, the injector wiring needs to be perfect because the injector pulses are very short and high current.
You already changed the injector perhaps it was the plug?

Yes, I agree.

If the problem is with the HT system, I think it has to be the coil, as I have replaced the plugs, plug caps and HT leads. Twice! I think I should be able to rule this in or out by getting the problem to happen, and then swapping coils.

I will also try selectively wetting the injector wiring. As I said, the rubber boot protecting the wiring into the plug is split, but the wiring itself looks fine. Nevertheless I have sealed it up with tape, cleaned the contacts in the plug and socket and put it all back together.

If it turns out that the plug is indeed faulty, is it possible to change that plug without splicing into the loom? I assume those plugs are available from somewhere. Are they?

[Two Checks]

With all this misfiring the spark plug may be bad.
Doesn't cost much to find out.

[Trogladyte]

With all this misfiring the spark plug may be bad.
Doesn't cost much to find out.

Done that. Changed them twice.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Reading the previous thread again

Pete said,
"Go into the menu, scroll to 'Diagnostics', enter the code 12425, scroll to ECU errors and see if any are active and then go to dashboard errors and see if any are active or memorised.
Do this when its firing on one as if there is an ECU error it won't list it as memorised, they only show up when active"

You should get an error message, I believe the ECU will detect the circuit is open.
But only while the error is active.
Or go over all the connectors again they should be pristine.

[Trogladyte]

In case anyone is interested, here's where I got to.

I cleaned up all the connections. Again. I then borrowed a new coil off a friend (thanks Baldrick), and fitted it on the right hand side. I then started the bike, and attacked it with a hose, gently at first, but eventually I replicated absolute Biblical rain - full pressure water straight at the coil, the HT lead, the injectors, and finally, I shoved the hose straight into the gallery above the exhaust, and totally flooded the plug and plug cap, so that water was pouring Niagra-like from the plug gallery drain. And still it ran fine. I turned it off and soaked it again. It started and ran. And again. And again. No amount of water would make it run on one.

I bet it's not fixed. I will report back the next time I ride it in heavy rain. I'm in London, so it won't be long.

[Dilliw]

I bet it's not fixed. I will report back the next time I ride it in heavy rain. I'm in London, so it won't be long.

Well it is an Italian mistress :)

I'm betting you got it 

[Trogladyte]

Well it is an Italian mistress :)

I'm betting you got it 

I really hope you're right! But I have some experience of Italian mistresses.

I travel everywhere, including to work and back every day, by bike. For complicated reasons, I'm riding a KTM Superduke 1290R as my main bike right now. Ideally, I'd like to use the Griso as my main bike through the coming winter - but to do that I need to be able to rely on it in the rain!

[Bulldog9]

Running all that water into the motor... I hope you at least ride it till the engine is hot and everything's dry or blow all the water out.

[lucian]

I would start by getting a can of de oxit and pulling every connector , relay and fuse on the bike and giving them a squirt.  It's always better still to do it before corrosion takes hold. 

[Trogladyte]

Running all that water into the motor... I hope you at least ride it till the engine is hot and everything's dry or blow all the water out.

Yes - I did, eventually. But I wanted to get it really wet. It still ran perfectly, when VERY wet.

When I'd finished, I blew everything out with compressed air, and then rode it for an hour or so to get it fully up to temperature.

So far, so good.

[John Warner]

You may have ruled out the HT Leads and/or Caps, but I'd still replace the original type Caps with the Red all-rubber type.
You get rid of two potential leak-points on each Cap by not having a rubber Boot at each end.
They're much easier to remove as well, so you negate the possibility of damaging the Leads and/or Caps as well.




They stick out the top a little when fitted, but as they're just rubber at the top, they flex enough to fold down under the little Cover-Plate.




Had mine on for nearly two years without issues, even in torrential rain.

[Trogladyte]

Interesting.

I have replaced the plug caps with the NGK ones that folk on here have recommended. Do you think the red rubber ones are better?

[Trogladyte]

Reading the previous thread again

Pete said,
"Go into the menu, scroll to 'Diagnostics', enter the code 12425, scroll to ECU errors and see if any are active and then go to dashboard errors and see if any are active or memorised.
Do this when its firing on one as if there is an ECU error it won't list it as memorised, they only show up when active"

You should get an error message, I believe the ECU will detect the circuit is open.
But only while the error is active.
Or go over all the connectors again they should be pristine.

If the problem happens again, I'll try to do this. I probably won't stop and do it in the middle of South London bandit country on my way home, but assuming it does it after a wash outside the garage, it will be fine.


And does anyone know what the best way to change the plugs that plug the loom into the injectors? Are the plugs available separately? Do I need to hack into the loom?

[frozengoose]

If the problem happens again, I'll try to do this. I probably won't stop and do it in the middle of South London bandit country on my way home, but assuming it does it after a wash outside the garage, it will be fine.

The title reminds me of my first college date, but that was mostly a timing issue.
Good luck in bandit country!

[Guzzistaracing]

How many times does this problem have to be posted!? It is covered in absurdum on this forum. 

[Ncdan]

Tro, Antmanbee just went through an extensive water issue with his Griso and I think he found some of the issues. Maybe check with him to see what he found to be water related issues.

[antmanbee]

Tro, Antmanbee just went through an extensive water issue with his Griso and I think he found some of the issues. Maybe check with him to see what he found to be water related issues.

My issues were fuel related due to water and my symptoms were a bit different than Trogs. I am pretty sure Trogs are ignition related.
But here is links to my threads.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=101479.msg1604955#msg1604955

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=101652.msg1607709#msg1607709