Author Topic: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)  (Read 360 times)

Online weevee

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Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« on: July 04, 2019, 10:59:15 AM »
Hi chaps

I've read a number of posts regarding the common 'clicking starter relay/no solenoid engagement' issue, and experienced it for the first time when out for a run on my Magni yesterday.  I'm now planning to lead a wire directly from the (+) battery terminal to the relay, as suggested in many of the 'startus-interruptus' posts - but they generally advise the cutting/replacement of the yellow wire to the relay housing and mine doesn't have one!

I'm guessing the wiring on my bike was originally taken from the Daytona, but I don't know for sure.  Can anyone look at the photos and advise which colour wire to cut and replace with one from the battery positive?  The female 'live', as tested, appears to be the blue one, and its spade is number 3 on the starter relay.

Cheers
Steve

   

 

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2019, 11:16:02 AM »
You have to look at bottom of relay, spade connectors are marked 30 is batt power, 85, 86, 87 are the rest. Ground wire, wire from switch, wire to solenoid.
The yellow wire is from a CARC bike wiring loom.
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Offline yogidozer

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2019, 11:35:32 AM »
Had this happen on my 95 spot. Bought 2 new relays, kept one as a spare

Online Old Jock

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2019, 11:59:24 AM »
99.9% certain Steve it will be standard Daytona loom

The relays are not the best as standard many replace, with Omron (which I don't think are available), I replaced with a Panasonic equivalent from Digi Key. I'll try to dig out the type I used

I'll take a look at the wiring diagram, I could have it wrong but I didn't think the Startus Interuptus mod was applicable to the Daytona.

John

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2019, 01:45:27 PM »
Here are the type I used

https://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/panasonic-electric-works/CM1-12V/255-2183-ND/647128

There does not appear to me that there would be a large voltage drop on the load side of the starter relay, it's powered from Fuse 4 and the power from the battery is looped at the fuse box and comes from the battery via the starter.

Using Carll Allison's diagram for the Centauro, I don't think the Daytona one is quite right as it wouldn't kill the headlamp on starting

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_Centauro.gif

It is feasible I suppose but I thought the Startus Interuptus was more to do with it being taken via ignition switch

We'll see if Roy will pop in and educate us.

John

Online weevee

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2019, 03:00:20 PM »
Thanks for the Centauro diagram, John.  The diagram I have is for the Daytona 93, and it shows an extra six-way connector twixt the starter relay and the fuses? (..it's numbered 42 on the Daytona drawing).  However, I confess I've only had a cursory look beneath the seat to examine the relays, so haven't traced the wires yet.  I'd planned to have a closer look at them tomorrow, so was hoping for a heads-up before I do.  Did replacing the relay with the Panasonic cure an issue you had with yours - or was it just a precautionary move?

I actually opened-up the starter relay on my old Le Mans and cured its reluctance to connect using a piece of fine wet 'n' dry on the points.  It worked though, so maybe that's an option too!

Steve

Offline yogidozer

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2019, 04:06:52 PM »
Have you checked to make sure you have a good ground?
I can't see a name on the relay I got from MG Cycle, but haven't had an issue since replacing it.

Offline Murray

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2019, 05:45:51 PM »
Before you get carried away I have an 1100 sport with 100 000miles and have never needed to do this mod nor have I heard of this mod carried on on these bikes the starter circuit already runs a relay which drops out the headlight when starting. What I have had to do on a semi regular basis is clean the contacts on the relay and pull the switch blocks and clean the contacts in them. The startus interutus only affects the much newer Brevas and the like where the ECU controls the cranking of the starter so basically when its working you can stab the starter butting momentarily the the ecu will manage the fuel and the cranking until it fires. Your bike doesn't have this ECU, if you are having issues I'd suggest you have a different issue.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2019, 09:13:53 PM »
Carl has a diagram for the 93 Daytona
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1993_Daytona_1000.gif
It appears as though the start relay is fed fairly direct its shown from the top fuse and that comes in a round about way from the hot terminal at the starter.
Are the fuses blade type. if not you may have a problem there, those old pointy ones between a couple of brass clips are a source of resistance.
Of course you may want to keep it original in which case polish the contacts of the fuse and stretch an "0" ring around the clips to maintain tension.

The starter solenoid will draw over 40 Amps for a split second, it needs to have a really robust circuit to supply that,
I would be tempted to re-feed the relay via a 20 amp in-line fuse direct from the battery.
The existing feed is from the starter solenoid hot terminal but you can switch it to the battery terminal if its closer.
Also inspect the wire from relay to solenoid and make sure the spade connector at the solenoid is really tight.

It wouldn't hurt to replace all the wiring between the battery and solenoid, it's not very much.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 09:34:44 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Online weevee

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2019, 02:15:16 AM »
Thanks chaps, you've all given me food for thought.  The bike's been standing idle for three years, so some corrosion of the connectors/earths etc. sounds likely.  I'll pull out the tester today and see what I can find.

Cheers
Steve

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2019, 03:40:09 AM »
Well my motto is if in doubt do wot Roy says

No issue Steve I was in there and decided that I may as well replace them while I was at it.

However on the 1100 I once had one of the relays not working and could not figure for the life of me what was wrong.

All I did was break the contacts from fuse to relay, cleaned and them, even though they were not dirty, then it all back. I think it was the fuel pump relay, anyway, did that and it all started working and has been fine ever since.

While we are on things electrical have you put in a Transil Diode? Easy mod and might save the ECU, not exactly costly or difficult.

http://paaat.guzz.free.fr/diode_transil/english.html

Just a thought

John

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2019, 05:31:51 AM »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Online Zoom Zoom

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2019, 05:42:08 AM »
I think sometimes people over complicate things. Let me explain. If anybody, has a desire to install a direct power path to the starter, it is pretty simple. A trip to your local auto parts store will get you everything you need, and you will not need to cut any wires to do so.

Some time ago, I purchased the startus interuptus that was made for sale only to discover it would not work on my Stelvio. Since it wouldn't work with my bike I went the route I'll describe.

I bought a 40 amp relay and some male and female spade connectors. (I already had some heavy gauge wire that I would use, but you would need some wire too.)

1. Unplug the connector at the starter solenoid and either relocate it to the new relay or run a wire from it to the location where you mount the relay.
2. Come off the other side of that set of pins with a ground.
3. Run a new wire off the positive terminal of the battery to the other side of the relay. I did fuse that wire BTW.
4. Run a wire from the relay back to the starter solenoid where you removed the original wire.

You are done. You are now using a low amperage circuit to trigger a higher amperage direct path to the starter. You have cut nothing. You could switch things back to original easily if you wanted. The most difficult part of all this is to determine where you will mount the new relay, and even that is not a big deal.

This is a cheap, easy conversion that will take you little time with no damage to your original wiring at all. Frankly, this could apply to any bike where you can gain access to the solenoid trigger wire, so this covers many bikes.

John Henry
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 05:43:20 AM by Zoom Zoom »
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Offline Murray

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2019, 07:11:39 AM »
Well my motto is if in doubt do wot Roy says

No issue Steve I was in there and decided that I may as well replace them while I was at it.

However on the 1100 I once had one of the relays not working and could not figure for the life of me what was wrong.

All I did was break the contacts from fuse to relay, cleaned and them, even though they were not dirty, then it all back. I think it was the fuel pump relay, anyway, did that and it all started working and has been fine ever since.

While we are on things electrical have you put in a Transil Diode? Easy mod and might save the ECU, not exactly costly or difficult.

http://paaat.guzz.free.fr/diode_transil/english.html

Just a thought

John

If you have the rear seat off on a sport spot or daytona RS stand at the right angle and squint you will notice a gap between the body work and the inner bit of plastic right below the relay holders where the rear wheel in wet conditions can flick stuff up into the aera. It tends to be the actaul holder contacts that get a bit of grabage on them rather than the relays themselves pulling them and reseating them is normally enough to get things underway again.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:22:19 AM by Murray »

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2019, 07:57:21 AM »
Just one thing to be aware of.
If you look at the diagram of the Daytona I attached it shows relays with 5 pins but two of them are 87, they don't have an 87a like most other Guzzi
These are more like a 4 pin relay with the 87 split, they don't show a normally open contact.
You could use the normal 5 pin Omrons but would need to double up on the 87 terminal.

I have no first hand experience with the Daytona so take note of what the owners have found.
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Online weevee

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Re: Starter relay mod. (Daytona)
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2019, 07:35:51 AM »
Hi chaps, just an update on this for anyone else that may seek the resolution of a similar problem..

I cleaned-up every earth I could find, with no measurable improvement.
I cleaned-up just about every spade or block-connector I could find, with no measurable improvement.
I removed and opened-up the starter relay, and cleaned between the points with fine abrasive & contact cleaner.  This reduced the (measured) resistance across the two larger spades on the relay (..and thus sent better voltage to the + tang on the solenoid).
I discovered the ring-type lug on the lead taking + current from the battery to the regulator was a little loose (..the crimping wasn't holding the ring-lug tightly) - and this was causing resistance. Correcting this reduced the resistance and gave an immediate improvement to the regulator's output (..the voltmeter showing a 1v increase in charging at idle speed - and an improved engine-off measurement across the battery terminals).

These two improvements appear to have solved the problem.  I've started the bike countless times since, with no issues.  It a comfort, too, to see 13.5-14v on the cockpit-mounted voltmeter for the first time.  My fingers are crossed, but I'm hopeful that's an end to it! 

Steve 

       

 


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