Ride comparison V85 vs R100GS

[ohiorider]

Has anyone on WG previously (or currently) owned an 1988 - 1995 R100GS, and has now taken delivery of a new V85? 

I wouldn't expect you to comment that the Guzzi has better brakes (that's a given!), and has more hp and torque, (another given) since my GS was factory rated at 58hp.

But if you already owned the GS, and have now added a V85 to your stable, will the Guzzi stay and the GS go bye bye?  Or do you think both bikes would stick around and both be ridden frequently?

Just curious.  Not doing anything (yet?)  Not getting rid of the GS.

Bob

[wirespokes]

I've got a G/S and two 100PDs, but no V85.

I'm curious how they compare, but hopefully the goose comes without the driveline issues. That would be a major plus right there!

[ohiorider]

I've got a G/S and two 100PDs, but no V85.

I'm curious how they compare, but hopefully the goose comes without the driveline issues. That would be a major plus right there!

Agree about the R100GS driveshaft issue.  Unbelievably, my original shaft made it for 122,000 miles.  Since the rubber molding that held two ends of the shaft together was still keeping things aligned, I had a shop remove U joints and install new ones.  It was totally coming to pieces at 156,000 miles, so time to bite the bullet and do another oem shaft.  Was that pricy!!  But it's done, and she's running pretty good once again.

[wirespokes]

What went that it needed rebuilding at 122K? And then it only lasted another 35K?

[ohiorider]

What went that it needed rebuilding at 122K? And then it only lasted another 35K?

Can't remember which end of the shaft failed, but the u joint and yoke were junk.  The shop that did the rebuild had a yoke from another shaft that he donated.  Don't know why the replacement joints didn't hold up longer.  Unlike the OEM shaft with factory greased, sealed u joints, the rebuild required the joints to be greased every 15k or so, which I did.

GS drive shafts often failed at 30, 40. and 50k miles.  I felt fortunate to get over 120k out of my original.  Look thru the GS Registry and you'll find a bunch that failed early on.

https://www.micapeak.com/reg/bikes/R100GS/

Bob

[wirespokes]

I do know about the failures - even as early as 14K. I knew a guy with over 100K on his and he only replaced it for an overseas adventure tour. Another guy had six or seven of them planted around the planet. Every one had a spare driveshaft strapped to the handlebar crossbar.

I'm very well aware of the situation, swore to stay away ---- a lot of good that did! Mine's carried me across the country and back, no issues. But my attention is always on that driveline. Supposedly the Emerald Isle shafts are excellent, and I hope so, but not cheap. We pay for our obsessions...

[Tusayan]

I do know about the failures - even as early as 14K. I knew a guy with over 100K on his and he only replaced it for an overseas adventure tour. Another guy had six or seven of them planted around the planet. Every one had a spare driveshaft strapped to the handlebar crossbar.

My R100GS has had one shaft in 104,000 miles, at something like 90K.  Before and after I've spun the rear wheel on the center stand at regular intervals to check for smooth rotation.  I got lucky and caught the failure as it was occurring.

Re the original topic, if the V85TT had a little less 'technology' I'd be unable to resist it as a potential replacement for my GS.  Its the CANBUS, ABS, flat panel, throttle by wire, riding modes etc that discourage me somewhat.  I'd like one with a cable throttle and everything unnecessary for my use removed.  The brakes and power would be fine  although I'd like a drum on the back  (My GS is still on the original rear brake shoes and I've never had to change the rear brake fluid!)

[ohiorider]

My R100GS has had one shaft in 104,000 miles, at something like 90K.  Before and after I've spun the rear wheel on the center stand at regular intervals to check for smooth rotation.  I got lucky and caught the failure as it was occurring.

Re the original topic, if the V85TT had a little less 'technology' I'd be unable to resist it as a potential replacement for my GS.  Its the CANBUS, ABS, flat panel, throttle by wire, riding modes etc that discourage me somewhat.  I'd like one with a cable throttle and everything unnecessary for my use removed.  The brakes and power would be fine  although I'd like a drum on the back  (My GS is still on the original rear brake shoes and I've never had to change the rear brake fluid!)

I'm not a total Luddite, but like you, a V85 for me doesn't need lots of gadgets.:
- I'm ok with CANBUS and ABS.  The Bosch CANBUS has been around for years now.  My 1989 K100RS came with ABS.
- No flat panel, an old mechanical speedo and tach would be fine.  No dashboard issues please. 
- No fly by wire, throttle cable is just fine, thank you.
- One riding 'mode' is fine.  Lets call it 'ride' mode.
- Just had my original rear shoes replaced at 155,000 miles, but I'm ok with a simple hydraulic rear disc.

[blu guzz]

I may be wrong in my thinking, but I don't think that old GS riders or vintage Guzzi riders for that matter were the main targets for this bike.  Someone at headquarters may have realized that we (older guys) are not the future of the brand if they are going to survive.  Heck, I would love to have a set of Smith's guages on a modern reliable bike, but don't see that happening.

[Tusayan]

I may be wrong in my thinking, but I don't think that old GS riders or vintage Guzzi riders for that matter were the main targets for this bike.  Someone at headquarters may have realized that we (older guys) are not the future of the brand if they are going to survive.  Heck, I would love to have a set of Smith's guages on a modern reliable bike, but don't see that happening.

If think the idea was to capture a bit of everybody's preferences in one bike, and do it in a way that reflects Guzzi's long term values of simplicity and style, while maintaining good performance.  I also think they've done a really good job of it.

[Kev m]

- No flat panel, an old mechanical speedo and tach would be fine.  No dashboard issues please. 
- No fly by wire, throttle cable is just fine, thank you.
- One riding 'mode' is fine.  Lets call it 'ride' mode.

Not for nothing but a mechanical speedo doesn't guarantee lack of problems (I would think BMW and Guzzi owners would realize that, hell who is the guy on CA who just rebuilds BMW speedos).

And throttle cables don't guarantee a lack of problems either, but IF you're gonna go ahead and have ABS, why the hell not go ahead and have TC too - and that's one of the main reasons for FBW. And once you have FBW why not give the operator choices in throttle response and TC sensitivity.

Just saying.

[ohiorider]

Not for nothing but a mechanical speedo doesn't guarantee lack of problems (I would think BMW and Guzzi owners would realize that, hell who is the guy on CA who just rebuilds BMW speedos).

And throttle cables don't guarantee a lack of problems either, but IF you're gonna go ahead and have ABS, why the hell not go ahead and have TC too - and that's one of the main reasons for FBW. And once you have FBW why not give the operator choices in throttle response and TC sensitivity.

Just saying.

The beauty is, these old VDO instruments CAN be rebuilt.  I'm sure many of them are coming off of very high mileage bikes, and most likely, the repair shop isn't on a scavenger hunt trying to find an elusive LCD display (think 'CARC dashboards', that also depend on the dash to control turn signals and act as an interface for the heated grips.)  I'm just saying  .....

[Kev m]

The beauty is, these old VDO instruments CAN be rebuilt.  I'm sure many of them are coming off of very high mileage bikes, and most likely, the repair shop isn't on a scavenger hunt trying to find an elusive LCD display (think 'CARC dashboards', that also depend on the dash to control turn signals and act as an interface for the heated grips.  I'm just saying  .....

Fair enough I guess, but this is just another level of the same old carbs and points discussion.

[ohiorider]

Fair enough I guess, but this is just another level of the same old carbs and points discussion.

Kev, I suppose it is.

[Tusayan]

Calling the issue ‘the old points and carbs discussion’ is pejorative, but it’s actually a very valid issue with little to do with the specific technology: do you want a bike that has less things to break and can be maintained indefinitely, or don’t you care?  European manufacturers, BMW and Guzzi foremost among them, built their reputations assuming this was an important issue, their key market differentiation, and are now trying to reclaim a bit of that reputation by marketing ‘authenticity’... while oh so carefully making sure the buyer doesn’t latch on to the key point - that they no longer design bike to last forever, or at least a lifetime, as a key feature of their high priced European quality.

[wirespokes]

Exactly!!! Very well said, Tusayan and Ohio!

And even with the points discussion - I know a guy who went through numerous electronic ignitions on his airhead, only to finally return to points with an ignition amplifier which has given him 40K trouble free miles with no breakdowns, or even any points wear. They just continue working.

And, by the way, i'm the guy who rebuilds airhead gauges almost exclusively. It's not because they're junk or inferior to electronics that they need to be worked on. It's because mechanical things need to be serviced eventually and there's no service schedule on gauges. Guys tend to run them way past their 'pull' date when the lube has dried up and they blow up. There was a flaw in the odometer that was never addressed by the manufacturer, so they all need that sooner or later, but that doesn't mean the gauges are junk. They're not - they're actually very high quality, designed to be serviced, adjusted and calibrated. That's more than I can say for the Honda gauges I've opened up, that are all crimped together - never designed to be serviced or repaired. And, like the Guzzis, airheads generally get ridden a lot, so the gauges eventually need an overhaul.

[Kev m]

We can talk about this fantasy world where bikes could once rebuild and maintain a bike forever but magically cannot due to technology and planned obsolescence.

But the fact remains that today's vehicles on a while last longer with fewer repairs than ever before. And if the day comes you need an electronic part there will always be an option either from old parts or with new adapted to the needs. Whether it's someone like Beetle cracking maps or someone like my ECU or adapting an ECU, dash or whatever from another model it will be done if desired enough. But till then most will lose interest in that vehicle long before that point. Very long.

[Tusayan]

Having not had to rely on others to reprogram my own motorcycle EFI 20+ years ago, I’m not unaware of the possibility.

I don’t lose interest in my motorcycles over time, because I buy ones that are worthy of long term interest. As a result they don’t depreciate, they appreciate, and that’s no fantasy   

[reidy]

All of this talk about complexity and how easy and old or new bike is to rebuild is interesting. I see a number of posters, and I have done this as well in the past, have made a statement that the new technology is hard or impossible to rebuild. The true statement is it is hard for them to rebuild. The right person can easily find solutions and rebuild the modern electronics. They can also do a lot of it in a nice warm room inside instead of a cold garage.

I am a fan of the simple technology of the past but at times fault finding can be a complex operation. With the right bit of kit it is often possible to can get fault code or sensor readout in real-time, and in some cases on our mobile phone which makes the process very simple.

Over the years I have developed an intolerance to petrol. This is a long story that involves aircraft fuel tanks and long term exposure. To work on a carburetor to tune it (change jets and such) I have to wear gloves to prevent fuel contacting my skin and work in a very well ventilated area.
On a fuel injected bike I can plug a laptop and check fault codes and make adjustments. The limitations for me are knowledge to an extent but mainly confidence as I have been conditioned to think it is difficult and fraught with danger. I think it would be safe to say that anyone that can tune and fault find and old style bike and can use a computer to post messages on this forum could be taught the basics of fault diagnosis and tuning on a modern EFI bike.

The key with this technology in this style of bike is not so much to do with if it can be fixed, but was it designed to have a suitable amount of dust, vibration and water proofing. This can be achieved if the manufacturer wants to achieve it. I guess only time will tell.   

Steve

[blu guzz]

I know that for some riders that some of the tech on the V85 seems revolutionary.  But, guzzi is not honda, there is nothing that has not been seen before, some of it such as traction control and rain modes on guzzis and other parts such as that screen on other bikes, cars and computers. 
I admit, when I got the Cali and learned about the driving aids, I was a bit nervous, especially about pushing the starter button while the engine was running, but it has all worked perfectly.  the new engine power (80) is just old tuning tricks and computer aided design. 
I am excited to see that between all the threads talking about this bike, there are  over 2000 posts.  Just what we needed.  I am also very impressed with the launch and follow through of this bike.  It was only a few weeks late of the first date they said riders would have them.  In the past, by the time they actually got the bike to riders, it would be November.

[JohninVT]

Unlike carbs and points and even speedometers, FI and electronics are not wear items.  This conversation is much like the Norton thread.  I had one.  I liked it a lot.  I'm a rider not a collector so constantly dicking with Isolastics and worn carb slides and setting points and chasing leaks grew tiresome.  A certain amount of simple maintenance is fun to me.  Changing drive shafts or clutches every 14k is not. 

I am someone who refused to own a motorcycle with any electronic aids, including ABS, for many years.  Owning a bike with them has been a revelation to me.  I still don't care about ABS but traction control and throttle sensitivity settings can transform your riding experience.  It's not a question of analog vs digital, it's about expanding your ability to control the motorcycle under all conditions and riding types.     

[Tusayan]

Electronics are wear items, they succumb to vibration, corrosion, heat cycles, minor crashes. UV etc.

[Tusayan]

the new engine power (80) is just old tuning tricks and computer aided design. 

Yep, good stuff.  The V85 engine makes decent, smooth power while having one throttle body, no water cooling, no counter balance shaft, one crankshaft throw and four total valves.  THAT is ten times more interesting to me than the gee gaws.

[Kev m]

Electronics are wear items, they succumb to vibration, corrosion Uv etc.

Not in the same way as mechanical components. And in most cases they far outlive traditional mechanical wear items.

[pauldaytona]

Most here have a car with CAN bus, ABS drive by wire and much more computers in them as any bike has. Working every day so where is the problem?
The ecu and throttle body are made since many years. And Guzzi has injection since 1992= 27 years  And these ECU things don't break often.
Then we made you software so you can see what happens inside, for free. 

[Kev m]

Most here have a car with CAN bus, ABS drive by wire and much more computers in them as any bike has. Working every day so where is the problem?
The ecu and throttle body are made since many years. And Guzzi has injection since 1992= 27 years  And these ECU things don't break often.
Then we made you software so you can see what happens inside, for free.

Some people would leave a gold coin on the ground for want of not being seen bending over to pick it up....


....and some can't bend that far anymore.

[Tusayan]

Cars and car components have HUGE development budgets, and that’s how they can be forced into reliability for a finite period... after that they are degraded, rotted plastic junk that we throw away.  I do it about every 12 years.

Working in the business of making complex things work as I’ve described makes one a little less naive 

[Kev m]

Working in the business of making complex things work as I’ve described makes one a little less naive 

Obviously not enough.

[s1120]

Cars and car components have HUGE development budgets, and that’s how they can be forced into reliability for a finite period... after that they are degraded, rotted plastic junk that we throw away.  I do it about every 12 years.

Working in the business of making complex things work as I’ve described makes one a little less naive 

Having spent the last 25 years of my life working in the new car business I have to saw there is some truth there..  First of all in the northeast you only have 10-15 years before rot takes them...  then with high miles there are some cars out there, that when that old check engine comes on.....  you might as well toss it...  you cant...or cant afford to fix.  You got 4 O2 sensors, and normaly for cats on a modern car....  A rough estament is about a grand per cat if you own a import... 200 bucks each for a o2...  and really they do go..  also add to the fact that parts start getting fazed out once the model is 10 years old...  Ive seen many cars scrapped while mechanically they were fine... but the engine management system fail, and they are looking at 3x what the thing is worth to fix... And most states you need that light off to pass yearly inspections... so it really isn't the same world.. 

[Kev m]

Having spent the last 25 years of my life working in the new car business I have to saw there is some truth there..  First of all in the northeast you only have 10-15 years before rot takes them...  then with high miles there are some cars out there, that when that old check engine comes on.....  you might as well toss it...  you cant...or cant afford to fix.  You got 4 O2 sensors, and normaly for cats on a modern car....  A rough estament is about a grand per cat if you own a import... 200 bucks each for a o2...  and really they do go..  also add to the fact that parts start getting fazed out once the model is 10 years old...  Ive seen many cars scrapped while mechanically they were fine... but the engine management system fail, and they are looking at 3x what the thing is worth to fix... And most states you need that light off to pass yearly inspections... so it really isn't the same world..

Having spent equal time in the repair industry on a data gathering and supply side of the coin I have a different view.

You're right it's really not the same world. Are there any states that emissions test motorcycles annually or look for emissions faults at a state inspection? They don't even inspect motorcycles in my state, at ALL and they didn't do emissions checks in my last state (PA) either.

You just described financial reasons why people chose not to repair rust damaged cars, that has nothing to do with whether or not someone might chose to for other reasons. Most people aren't riding their bikes in those conditions also which is something to consider.

More on point with classic cars or bikes how many times do we see someone put 2x or 3x the value of the machine into a restoration or rebuild without blinking. So much for the financial argument.