I have sinned - Now Using Metric more than English Units

[Das]

Running a four minute mile has a certain 'aura' about it.  Who cares how fast someone can run 1600 metres.  Lot to be said for the Imperial.

[Lannis]

And bullet calibers ... talk about a mix of MM and INCHES .....

[Rough Edge racing]

 I use metric measuring tools and think US standards.... Like measuring carb needles, a difference of .001 I can picture easier that .0254MM...But with metric wrench I think metric...

[Tusayan]

And bullet calibers ... talk about a mix of MM and INCHES .....

Also on motorcycles - 170/70-17 anyone?

For feeler gauge stuff I just remember 4 thou is a tenth of a millimeter and that gets me back and forth OK.

[LowRyter]

I cleaned the chain on one of my bikes, the books sez the slack should be 35-37mm.  I cleaned it and felt for the tight spot, got my tape measure out, it read 1 3/8.

close enough.               

[Kiwi Dave]

I grew up with both.

My conclusion is that we should genetically grow an extra finger on each hand, and then use this as the basis of our new counting system ........ 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,x,y,10.  Twelve is divisible by 2,3,4, & 6; 10 is divisible only by 2 & 5, a distinct disadvantage.

[Tusayan]

My conclusion is that we should genetically grow an extra finger on each hand, and then use this as the basis of our new counting system ........ 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,x,y,10.  Twelve is divisible by 2,3,4, & 6; 10 is divisible only by 2 & 5, a distinct disadvantage.

  

My thought was entirely different.  I figure we need to start an international program to confront the solar system error that has resulted in 365 days in a year instead of 100.  After that we go after 24 hours in a day.  It’s for the children.

[sign216]

A while ago I bought a measuring set (ruler, protractor, etc) at a store and when I got home I saw it was made in England.

The inches side of the rule didn't have fractions of an inch like 1/4, 1/2, ect.  Instead the inches were graduated in tenths, like the metric side.  Weird. 

I'm okay w tenths on the metric side, but I like inches in regular fractions.

[John A]

I used to take a night course at a tech college machine shop. After you made a few things they would let you loose to use all the very nice machines to make whatever you wanted. One of the things I made was a set of V blocks, heat treated and ground to precision . I made them to metric dimensions and the instructor hated that because he was not familiar with metric measurement.  I explained how it was so much easier than inch dimensions but he was still confused so I converted it all out for him and of course it came out to be oddball inch sizes but he still preferred I made stuff to inch sizes . And he was about ten years younger than I

[Tusayan]

A while ago I bought a measuring set (ruler, protractor, etc) at a store and when I got home I saw it was made in England.

The inches side of the rule didn't have fractions of an inch like 1/4, 1/2, ect.  Instead the inches were graduated in tenths, like the metric side.  Weird. 

I'm okay w tenths on the metric side, but I like inches in regular fractions.

A decimal marked rule is standard practice for technical work anywhere, regardless of units.  Both types are widely available.

[Tusayan]

I used to take a night course at a tech college machine shop. After you made a few things they would let you loose to use all the very nice machines to make whatever you wanted. One of the things I made was a set of V blocks, heat treated and ground to precision . I made them to metric dimensions and the instructor hated that because he was not familiar with metric measurement.  I explained how it was so much easier than inch dimensions but he was still confused so I converted it all out for him and of course it came out to be oddball inch sizes but he still preferred I made stuff to inch sizes . And he was about ten years younger than I

The units make no difference to the ease of running a machine tool. Obviously any machine tool is run in the decimal system, whether inches or millimeters.

Anything measured accurately in any units is an oddball dimension unless it is (per your example) ground to within a few ten thousands of an inch and you are measuring with a pair of calipers accurate to only one thousandth.  Since most things are not ground, almost everything has a an oddball finished dimension made within an oddball tolerance range, regardless of units.

[molly]

A while ago I bought a measuring set (ruler, protractor, etc) at a store and when I got home I saw it was made in England.

The inches side of the rule didn't have fractions of an inch like 1/4, 1/2, ect.  Instead the inches were graduated in tenths, like the metric side.  Weird. 

I'm okay w tenths on the metric side, but I like inches in regular fractions.

Export use only, to keep our colonial cousins  on their toes.

[TimmyTheHog]

The funny thing is for me

I work in an Engineering Firm in CANADA which is a Metric country but because we deal so much business with US, nearly all the archive drawings and calculations are imperial.

What I am saying is I am the opposite of you that I got so used to imperial, I sometimes look at people funny mentioning metric system beside the temperature and speed.

[RinkRat II]

  I have a very good friend who was a surveyor for a number of years and always thougt it was funny to carry around his 12' engineers tape measure,  and when somebody asked to measure something He'd toss them his tape and watch in amazement people trying to figure it out without trying to be seen as ignorant.

   Paul B

[sign216]

The funny thing is for me

I work in an Engineering Firm in CANADA which is a Metric country but because we deal so much business with US, nearly all the archive drawings and calculations are imperial.

What I am saying is I am the opposite of you that I got so used to imperial, I sometimes look at people funny mentioning metric system beside the temperature and speed.

The real irony is that the USA left the UK long before Canada, and yet we adhere to the Imperial (English) longer than anyone else.

They have value in woodworking, and shipping, not so much in the tech fields.

[Furbo]

Lived most of my adult life in Europe, mostly Italy.

Prefer metric in everything except distance. Prefer miles to KMs', at least in the states.

[DougG]

Metric vs. Imperial,

Politics!  The inch, foot, yard, etc, were based on a human measurement.  Width of a finger, length of a foot, length of a stride.  Who cared if you bought a little more or less rope or grain.  In those days, people were not that interested in precision and money didn't mean much anyway...most things were bartered and negotiated. 

If you liked that particular guy... (or if he conquered your country), fine!  If not, use Metrics.  They are based on the planet...circumfere nce, etc.  The US and Rhodesia are the only countries that still formally recognize the SAE (Society of American Engineers), system.  However, elements of the SAE system are still found in the UK and elsewhere...road signs and so on.

Nowadays, politics are different.  We use standard monetary systems and we demand what we pay for.  Just last month the System International (SI) universalized the standard for the kilogram.  It is no longer compared to a platinum-iridium sample in France.  It is now based on the wavelength of a defined color laser.  Everyone owns it now.

 I don't know the answer, I just remember when we crashed a probe into the planet Mars because somebody did not realize the computer programs were set up for metrics and the instruments on the probe were set up for SAE.  What a world! 

All I know is that I still enjoy a pint of Guiness...or 473.176473 ml, to be precise.

Be well,
DougG

[Lannis]

  Just last month the System International (SI) universalized the standard for the kilogram.  It is no longer compared to a platinum-iridium sample in France.  It is now based on the wavelength of a defined color laser.  Everyone owns it now.

DougG

Well, the meter is defined on the basis of the wavelength of a particular color of light, which is duplicable in any physics lab.  It used to be defined as the distance between two marks on a platinum-iridium bar in France, which was based on one ten-millionth of the distance between the equator and North Pole of the earth, but that changed in 1960 or so.

The kilogram was based on the mass of a weight also held in France which represented the exact weight of a liter of water, but the platinum-iridium mass was found to have changed a measurable bit over the years.   Now the kilogram is based on the value of Planck's constant, in terms of the definition of the "second" and the "meter", so it can't really change.

But since the meter is defined via a light wavelength, and the kilogram definition contains the meter as part of its specification, then the kilogram definition is (as you say) derived from the light wavelength, at one level of indirection ...

Lannis

[DougG]

Yeaahh, but how about the pint of Guinness?  That is the ultimate international standard!

Be well,
DougG

[John A]

The units make no difference to the ease of running a machine tool. Obviously any machine tool is run in the decimal system, whether inches or millimeters.

Anything measured accurately in any units is an oddball dimension unless it is (per your example) ground to within a few ten thousands of an inch and you are measuring with a pair of calipers accurate to only one thousandth.  Since most things are not ground, almost everything has a an oddball finished dimension made within an oddball tolerance range, regardless of units.

I've got twelve inches but I don't use it as a rule

[Kiwi Dave]

All I know is that I still enjoy a pint of Guiness...or 473.176473 ml, to be precise.

That's a US pint.  The English (Imperial) pint is 568.26125 ml.

The difference between a US pint and an English one is that the US pint has 16 fluid ounces, and the English pint has 20 fluid ounces.  So you would think that a US pint is 0.8 of an English one in volume.  Not so, because the ounces are slightly difference in size.

Ain't standards wonderful?

[molly]

That's a US pint.  The English (Imperial) pint is 568.26125 ml.

The difference between a US pint and an English one is that the US pint has 16 fluid ounces, and the English pint has 20 fluid ounces.  So you would think that a US pint is 0.8 of an English one in volume.  Not so, because the ounces are slightly difference in size.

Ain't standards wonderful?

A lot of the differences come down to the variation in the imperial  system at the time of American independence i.e there was a wine gallon and a beer gallon. As standardisation developed each nation adopted a different measurement, hence today's anomalies.

[blackbuell]

Retired scientist here; even though I grew up in and still live in the USA, I think in metric. Has worked out fine over the years with my motorcycles, the vast majority of which have been German, Italian, or Japanese.

Jon

[Dukedesmo]

Quote from: DougG on Today at 01:05:54 AM

All I know is that I still enjoy a pint of Guiness...or 473.176473 ml, to be precise.

Or, 568.261ml  - per 'proper' pint...     

[larrys]

Then there are the land surveyors measurements. Elevation above sea level is in feet and tenths of a foot...
Larry

[Lannis]

A lot of the differences come down to the variation in the imperial  system at the time of American independence i.e there was a wine gallon and a beer gallon. As standardisation developed each nation adopted a different measurement, hence today's anomalies.

There's still a gold ounce and everything else's ounce .....

And here's a perfectly reasonable reason (if I can say it that way) to standardize measurement systems across an industry - lack of proper unit conversion almost cost a lot of lives ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Lannis

[DougG]

Hi all,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

Planck’s Constant, (h) is defined in terms of Kg mxm/s.  Both m and s are measured by the wavelength of a defined radiation (light).  Atomic clocks use Cesium lasers, the meter is defined in terms of the light of a Krypton laser, and so on.
Just to be clear, the “one level of indirection” as previously mentioned, is the only measurable quantity needed to define the Kg.  Planck’s constant cannot be directly measured by any known means.  It is actually the result of several other measurable relationships.  Even the Kibble Balance (thanks to our UK brothers and sisters), “measures” mass by equating mechanical forces and electrical forces…Joules, Watts, etc., once again, directly dependent upon the measurable wavelength of a specific laser.

As far as Guinness is concerned, and me living in the good ‘ol US of A, when I order a ‘pint’ it is just 16 oz., not 20.   I’m so jealous of you folks in the UK…you get 25% more beer in your glass!

Be well,
DougG

[sign216]

There's still a gold ounce and everything else's ounce .....

And here's a perfectly reasonable reason (if I can say it that way) to standardize measurement systems across an industry - lack of proper unit conversion almost cost a lot of lives ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Lannis

Lannis,

The referenced link on the Gimli Glider incident is amazing.  A list of errors caused the plane to lose power, and the heroic crew saved it.  Aside from the fuel miscalculations, I can't believe that the Canadians allowed a passenger jet to take off w malfunctioning instruments, that the plane's systems didn't have a backup for electrical and hydraulic systems on "engines out," and that landing on "engines out" wasn't a part of pilot training.

Glad the crew saved everyone.

Joe

[Lannis]

Lannis,

The referenced link on the Gimli Glider incident is amazing.  A list of errors caused the plane to lose power, and the heroic crew saved it.  Aside from the fuel miscalculations, I can't believe that the Canadians allowed a passenger jet to take off w malfunctioning instruments, that the plane's systems didn't have a backup for electrical and hydraulic systems on "engines out," and that landing on "engines out" wasn't a part of pilot training.

Glad the crew saved everyone.

Joe

A good friend of mine is a Southwest Airlines pilot, and he and I spend some time talking about the results of these incidents as they occur.

For example, the Air France 447 flight where an instrument malfunctioned, and although the pilots had enough information to figure out what was going on, a junior pilot (while the captain was in the loo), just held the stick back in his lap (so to speak, it was actually at his side) while the plane mushed along and fell from 35,000 feet into the ocean.    I'll ask "What have the airlines done to assure that guys actually understand that they are aviators flying an airliner, and not just playing a simulator video game with joysticks?" and he always has a very good answer for me, directly applicable to the errors committed.

The flyers here can tell us better, but just like English is the agreed-upon language of airlines and air traffic control, it seems that miles and feet (flight levels) are the international units of the air, and not meters and kilometers.    What units they use to fill fuel tanks up, though, to prevent someone thinking they've put 10,000 kilograms of fuel in the tank when they actually put 10,000 pounds in the tank, I don't know.   I sure hope there are checks and balances these days!

Lannis

[kirby1923]

I won't get into it too deep but..
Back in the 50' all the aviation (commercial) had a convention to decide what language to use for flying aircraft internationally. English won by a couple of votes over..gulp French.

Most English speaking countries fuel in pounds, it sort of depends on how your fuel gage is calibrated. They are not changeable by the pilot or maintence people for obvious reasons.

All aircraft have an official MEL (minimum equipment list), meaning aircraft cannot dispatch without any piece of equipment required for flight. The failed, missing? equipment must be deferred in the maintence log by a quite formal procedure and any limitations must be followed.

Flight levels are in feet in most cases but in China for example they are in  meters and you have to set your altimeter  for the difference, and surface winds are in meters per second.

In China your captain might only have 1000 hours of flight time!!! and controllers in many areas of asia only understand 200 to 300 words in English so the colloquial slang won't work so pretty good.

Most commercial operators have a training program designed in-house that is supposed to comply with the aircraft manuals and the local aviation authority.

There is much more but I doubt that is of much interest here.

If you fly on a foreign carrier other than western countries like the USA and UK, Fr Gr, It, Oz, NZ...etc....
Well...
"As the saying goes you pay your money and take your chances."