Harley Davidson stock prices fall

[twowheeladdict]

Huntsville is rocket town USA.  And my point had much more to do with economics rather than geography. 

Give me a break!

Emphasis on town.  Huntsville is not urban at all, but I get where you are coming from. 

Not looking forward to the changes I may see in the next 30 years if I live that long. 

[canuck750]

I was thinking about what Lannis said, 'maybe it's just time', over a 100 years is a heck of an accomplishment. That said I don't think HD is anywhere near the end, the lower the stock value falls the more attractive it becomes for a take over. There is far too much value in the brand to see it collapse and though a major retraction is likely in order the company will continue to churn out product, my question is what action will management choose in an attempt to reverse the trend?

Hopefully there will be some far sighted vision that can sustain a potential recession and diversify the product without abandoning the heritage. I hope there can be a revitalization similar to what John Bloor achieved with Triumph, he chose not to replicate the already tired Meridian line but introduce a whole range of new machines and eventually introduce the successful retro line to appeal to a wide range of buyers.

My personal lack of interest in the HD brand has more to do with wanting to avoid the 'lifestyle' image it perpetuates than the bikes. While working in Houston I rented a couple big twins for weekend trips, I was left unimpressed with the power, handling and ergonomics. For my money there were a lot of other motorcycles that cost far less and delivered much more.

[bad Chad]

Huntsville is certainly a city, it officially refers to itself as a city and it meets any definition one can think of.   It’s metropolitan area is pushing towards 500,000 residents.  It’s ranked 11th by US World Reports out of best places in the US to live.  Highest educated population in AL because of the investment the US government made way back when bringing the rocket boys in.

Not sure what you mean by your use of the term “urban”.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Hopefully there will be some far sighted vision that can sustain a potential recession and diversify the product without abandoning the heritage. I hope there can be a revitalization similar to what John Bloor achieved with Triumph, he chose not to replicate the already tired Meridian line but introduce a whole range of new machines and eventually introduce the successful retro line to appeal to a wide range of buyers.

Isn't this what the upcoming 1250 Pan America, Custom 1250 and Streetfighter 975 are supposed to do?
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/design-filings-offer-better-look-at-harley-davidson-pan-america-custom-1250-and-streetfighter.html

[Lannis]

Huntsville is certainly a city, it officially refers to itself as a city and it meets any definition one can think of. 

That's for sure.   Anyone who DOESN'T think it's a "city" should drive from the river north on 231/431 across town ....

Lannis

[GearheadGrrrl]

Of course, HOG(NYSE) could just follow Guzzi's business plan and spend the next century successfully going out of business!

[twowheeladdict]

Huntsville is certainly a city, it officially refers to itself as a city and it meets any definition one can think of.   It’s metropolitan area is pushing towards 500,000 residents.  It’s ranked 11th by US World Reports out of best places in the US to live.  Highest educated population in AL because of the investment the US government made way back when bringing the rocket boys in.

Not sure what you mean by your use of the term “urban”.

2017 population of Huntsville was 197,000.   The entire county (madison county )  361,046.  Where did you get your numbers?

I see Urban as public transit, high rise residences, people not having to own a car. City blocks.  No yards.  Night life.

For instance Nashville has a population density of 1300 per square mile.
Atlanta,   3483 per square mile.  New york, 28,256 per square mile.  Boston,  13,812 per square mile.

Huntsville,   905 per square mile. 

[twowheeladdict]

That's for sure.   Anyone who DOESN'T think it's a "city" should drive from the river north on 231/431 across town ....

Lannis

The mountain, Arsenal, and river constrict traffic to 231/431. 

I grew up in New England 28 miles north of Boston.

Yes Huntville is a city, but i dont consider it urban.  Any incorporated government can call itself a city to deliniate itself from the surrounding county.

[Lannis]

Yes Huntsville is a city, but i don't consider it urban. 

That's really about as meaningful as my saying "Yes, it has two wheels, but I don't consider it a motorcycle" for any bike under 750cc.

When you define a term differently from the rest of the world for you alone to use the way you want, it doesn't really add anything to the conversation, or help communicate.

Lannis

[twowheeladdict]

That's really about as meaningful as my saying "Yes, it has two wheels, but I don't consider it a motorcycle" for any bike under 750cc.

When you define a term differently from the rest of the world for you alone to use the way you want, it doesn't really add anything to the conversation, or help communicate.

Lannis

Look up the definition of city.  Anyone who invorporates can call themselves a city.  Whatever.   There are cities that have no industry, no public tranportation, only subdivisions and schools.  They are a city, but not urban. 

[LowRyter]

I've been to Huntsville, gone to the base and eaten what they call BBq.   We've gone a long way.

[dxhall]

thread drift

[TodkaVonic]

I'm really enjoying this thread.







Gotta click the image to see the whole thing...

Nate

[Lannis]

thread drift

Not thread drift at all.   How can you have a reasonable discussion about "Harley Davidson Stock Prices" if you can't talk about the reasons WHY the stock price (value of the company, etc) is changing?

We've talked about what drives stock prices, how moving production overseas can affect the business, the history of 100+ year-old companies and whether there's a natural lifetime for a corporation like there is for people, Harley's target market, and now we're on how changing demographics, the fading out of the Boomers as an economic force and the rise of younger generations MIGHT affect Harley's attempts to target lifestyle trends.   The question was raised about whether young people are moving from cities to elsewhere, or whether they are congregating in cities more than they used to due to economic pressure, and the current discussion is "what does it take to make a 'city' and are younger people moving there, and will they therefore want traditional Harley-Davidsons or something else?"

You can have silo-ed limited discussions anywhere.   You can't get this kind of information from this many informed sources just anywhere; one of the things that makes WG unique.

Lannis

[moltoguzzi]

I haven’t been on this site for years and I find the same repeated bias against Harley’s and their riders. I have owned multiple Guzzi’s and HDs and liked them all. My current ride a 2018 114 Heritage all stock except for matching top box, heated grips, crash bars and highway pegs is the best bike I have owned so far. It’s comfortable for long trips, it handles great for a massive bike, it brakes great, it has more power than I’ll ever need, the suspension I’d very good, it looks great, like to just at the bike when parked. And I don’t worry about breaking down, I don’t even carry a tool kit, just a fix a flat and air cartridges. I don’t wear the custom “pirate” outfit but it’s nice to fit in wherever I go. Please knock it off with all the Harley is dead crap. They make great motorcycles for those that enjoy the journey and don’t want to get there as fast as possible. Is there a a Ducati Monster in my future? I would love to own one for short excursions. I still have a place in my heart for Guzzi’s but at 64yo I want to just ride and not having to worry about finding mechanics, parts changers are everywhere. Please go ride a new HD Softail Heritage about the same price as the 1400 touring and realize that HD is stepping up to meet the future, they even have an all electric bike and plenty of affordable beginners bikes.
Ride safely!

[TodkaVonic]

I haven’t been on this site for years and I find the same repeated bias against Harley’s and their riders. I have owned multiple Guzzi’s and HDs and liked them all. My current ride a 2018 114 Heritage all stock except for matching top box, heated grips, crash bars and highway pegs is the best bike I have owned so far. It’s comfortable for long trips, it handles great for a massive bike, it brakes great, it has more power than I’ll ever need, the suspension I’d very good, it looks great, like to just at the bike when parked. And I don’t worry about breaking down, I don’t even carry a tool kit, just a fix a flat and air cartridges. I don’t wear the custom “pirate” outfit but it’s nice to fit in wherever I go. Please knock it off with all the Harley is dead crap. They make great motorcycles for those that enjoy the journey and don’t want to get there as fast as possible. Is there a a Ducati Monster in my future? I would love to own one for short excursions. I still have a place in my heart for Guzzi’s but at 64yo I want to just ride and not having to worry about finding mechanics, parts changers are everywhere. Please go ride a new HD Softail Heritage about the same price as the 1400 touring and realize that HD is stepping up to meet the future, they even have an all electric bike and plenty of affordable beginners bikes.
Ride safely!

Good points. I'm a fan of HD, a previous owner, and live where probably 4/5th of motorcyclists ride a Harley. But this is a Moto Guzzi enthusiast forum for people who own, or who aspire to own, or who have owned a Moto Guzzi. I don't think that bias against another manufacturer is unexpected, and, as long as it doesn't include personal attacks or name-calling, even undesirable.  I'm not a member or contributor in any Harley forums, but I would expect discussions about Moto Guzzi's to be biased against Mandello and wouldn't take offense by that, because, hey it's a Harley forum. Having followed this conversation, it's clear to me that, by and large, people have actually gone out of their way to present their opinions in a fair and unbiased manner (with a little gentle mockery) while also promoting the brand to which this forum is dedicated. Oh, and I learned that Huntsville, Alabama is a city too, so there's that. 

[canuck750]

Isn't this what the upcoming 1250 Pan America, Custom 1250 and Streetfighter 975 are supposed to do?
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/design-filings-offer-better-look-at-harley-davidson-pan-america-custom-1250-and-streetfighter.html

Hmmm, the 'adventure' bike leaves me cold

[dxhall]

I don’t think this is about HD “hate” at all.  Many of the members of this forum (me included) own HDs.  It’s about HD’s future if it continues on its current path.  The fact that HD’s stock price has dropped against a rising market means that the market doesn’t think that future is very bright.  Is the market right?  I don’t know, but you can bet that the analysts making buy/sell recommendations did a lot of modeling and number crunching to reach their opinions.

Will HD become the two-wheeled equivalent of the BlackBerry?  Who knows.  Am I buying HD stock?  No way.

[oldbike54]

 Funny thread .

 Dusty

[Tom]

 

[reidy]

I have seen a few comments hear about Harley bashing, not that I have seen much evidence of it. The funny thing is that it is totally irrelevant for the purpose of this conversation, if your 2012 Harley was the best bike ever made in the world. What we are dealing with here is a perception that Harley is heading in the wrong direction. I don’t mean a perception by the members of this fine forum who are free to express their views. I am talking about the shareholders and ex-shareholders who are clearly stating their perception by putting their money where their mouth is. The share price is heading south because investors don’t believe that the current share price reflects the value of the company.

What I find even funnier is that the quality of the 2019/20 bikes only have little relevance in this discussion. Remember that a lot of these shareholders probably have never owned or even ridden a Harley.

Harley as a company is a lot bigger than just making bikes. They are a clothing company, either directly or indirectly through licensing deals.  They are a real estate company through all of the buildings, warehouses and land they own or need to acquire for future expansion. They are a finance and insurance company. They are a training company as the charge and run schools to train as an authorized Harley mechanic. They also make money from licensing fees they charge dealers and then dictate store layout and what they can have for breakfast. The list goes on to include import/export shipping and most likely a dozen other things I have not thought about.

If they are doing any of the above badly it affects profit and/or future expenditure. This is what the shareholder cares about. The way I see it is that there is a strong perception that Harley is not doing something right to retain the perceived value in the market.

What is interesting to me are the possible reasons for this. This may include demographics of emerging markets or a belief, rightly or wrongly, that they have sold out as a good American company and are now just assembling parts from Mexico and China. We may not uncover the real reason here but it makes for an interesting conversation. That is one of the things I love about this forum even if I have not converted to steel cut oats.

Steve

[twowheeladdict]

Good points. I'm a fan of HD, a previous owner, and live where probably 4/5th of motorcyclists ride a Harley. But this is a Moto Guzzi enthusiast forum for people who own, or who aspire to own, or who have owned a Moto Guzzi. I don't think that bias against another manufacturer is unexpected, and, as long as it doesn't include personal attacks or name-calling, even undesirable.  I'm not a member or contributor in any Harley forums, but I would expect discussions about Moto Guzzi's to be biased against Mandello and wouldn't take offense by that, because, hey it's a Harley forum. Having followed this conversation, it's clear to me that, by and large, people have actually gone out of their way to present their opinions in a fair and unbiased manner (with a little gentle mockery) while also promoting the brand to which this forum is dedicated. Oh, and I learned that Huntsville, Alabama is a city too, so there's that. 

I am not on a general Harley forum, but am on a Road Glide specific forum.  I post photos of my Moto Guzzi and Royal Enfield on that forum and the folks appreciate it and it is eye opening for some of them.  If I post photos of my Road Glide on here I get the negative comments.  I don't even bother posting my Moto Guzzi photos on here anymore because they get the "small blocks aren't real Moto Guzzis" comments on here.  I know those aren't the exact words, but that is the sentiment of a lot of the old farts on here. 

[oldbike54]

I am not on a general Harley forum, but am on a Road Glide specific forum.  I post photos of my Moto Guzzi and Royal Enfield on that forum and the folks appreciate it and it is eye opening for some of them.  If I post photos of my Road Glide on here I get the negative comments.  I don't even bother posting my Moto Guzzi photos on here anymore because they get the "small blocks aren't real Moto Guzzis" comments on here.  I know those aren't the exact words, but that is the sentiment of a lot of the old farts on here.

 Dunno , we have lots of HD owners here that post pics and reports on their bikes to normally positive comments . Are you expecting this group of folks to always gush about any brand of motorbike ? As for the small block , most of the comments are meant as humor , attend any Guzzi rally and see how many small blocks are in attendance .

 Dusty

[s1120]

I’m not seeing any real hate.  Lots of ribbing back and forth for sure, but what I see the MG/ HD guys seem to have some measure of respect for each other. At least the circles I hang out in.  Really I bet more then any other brands. Just rode with my BIL the other day...  told him I thought my bike was running bad but it was the sound of his....  he keeps asking when I’m getting my ascot for riding that yuppy bike...  not hate.  Just busting stones

[Lannis]

I’m not seeing any real hate.  Lots of ribbing back and forth for sure, ......  Just busting stones

Yup.   I mean, what do WE stereotype Guzzi riders, our own selves, as?   Right here on this list, every day.

Cheap.
Old.
Gluttons for Punishment.
Buying bikes from a crazy company "Going out of Business since 1921."
"Guzzi - Making Men into Mechanics since 1921".
Riding a 400 mile round trip to lunch if we hear that sandwiches are 25% off today.


So is that "Guzzi Bashing"?   "Guzzi Hate"?   Everyone knows it's not.  Just a bit of fun.

So how come if we characterize Harley riders as:

Wearing Outlaw Non-Conformist Official Uniforms.
Riding 200 miles a year 10 miles at a time.
Spending $15,000 on a bike and $16,000 on Screaming Arlen Ness Eagle Billet butt-jewelry.
Riding in packs 60 MPH on the straights and 15 MPH in the curves.
Making more noise with their pipes and radios than an F16 on afterburner .....

That's somehow "Harley Bashing" and "Hate" and all those other things?   

People melt down too easily these days, it seems.

Lannis

[kballowe]

Darned old POS Harleys....
Loose parts
$hit falling off all the time

[Shorty]

Those who wear assless chaps and own get-back whips seem to be the brunt of our mockery..... and rightly so.    

[Lannis]

Those who wear assless chaps and own get-back whips seem to be the brunt of our mockery..... and rightly so.    

Assless chaps might just be a ride protection fashion choice - I mean, chaps are by definition "assless" or otherwise they'd be pants.   I've met long-haul riders on different bikes that wear chaps, and I didn't get the impression that they were part of a uniform.   Although there are some, no doubt, who do use them for that.

But has anyone ever met a rider with a steel-tipped "Get Back Whip" dangling from his bike who was anything but a "don't f*** with me, I'm bad" wannabe tough guy?   That's not a stereotype, that's someone acting bad to maintain an image.

Never seen one of those on a Guzzi, I'll say that and no more ....    

Lannis

[kballowe]

Those who wear assless chaps and own get-back whips seem to be the brunt of our mockery..... and rightly so.    

We own some of those assless leather chaps but I usually wear blue jeans under them.
 

[oldbike54]

Darned old POS Harleys....
Loose parts
$hit falling off all the time

 That one picture explains a lot of things Kevin 

 Dusty