Another 3m tubeless and oil sender info

[jacksonracingcomau]

Just did my uk bike with 3m 4412 tape, really is a doddle but one advantage of tubeless , not sure mentioned before,
right angle valves make checking so much easier, also servo pumps that won’t fit straight ones.

Re oil pressure sender switches, mine was dribbling again, looked up thread and found these, at least they look like they won’t leak, pic is list of cars they fit, uk generic number prob no good in US but car model easy for auto shop to find.

[Knuckle Dragger]

Just did my uk bike with 3m 4412 tape, really is a doddle but one advantage of tubeless , not sure mentioned before,
right angle valves make checking so much easier, also servo pumps that won’t fit straight ones.

Re oil pressure sender switches, mine was dribbling again, looked up thread and found these, at least they look like they won’t leak, pic is list of cars they fit, uk generic number prob no good in US but car model easy for auto shop to find.

Just the Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing tape, or silicon over the spoke-ends as well?

Agree with the merits of using valve angle adapters.  My Aprilia's 17" tyres are all but impossible to fill/check.

[oldbike54]

In short order someone will come along to discuss the ills of making tube type wheel tubeless # being the bead of the wheel doesn't hold the bead of the tire very well and if the tire deflates the tire can come off the rim. The exact same thing can happen when a tube fails so in my mind there really is no difference.

Tubeless is just better and not sure why any manufacturer would still make tub type wheels. Yes even rim locks/bead lock could be redesigned or a type to be airtight so the har core off roaders could air down without worrying about tire slip.

 Had to press more than one tube tire off the rim , the beads were stuck like glue .

 Dusty

[jacksonracingcomau]

Just the Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing tape, or silicon over the spoke-ends as well?

Agree with the merits of using valve angle adapters.  My Aprilia's 17" tyres are all but impossible to fill/check.

No silicon, just 3 m 4412 extreme tape, no tricks, just clean first, lay carefully.
Possibly won’t take spoke tightening but is cheap enough to do again if needed
No adaptor, tubeless valve is right angled ,see pic.

[Ncdan]

I’ve ran both tube and tubeless over the past 50 years. Other than the issue of being easier and more convenient to fix a flat, on the road, someone please enlighten us on the woes of a tube in a tire.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I’ve ran both tube and tubeless over the past 50 years. Other than the issue of being easier and more convenient to fix a flat, on the road, someone please enlighten us on the woes of a tube in a tire.

Need adaptor to run right angle valve ( another join and pressure drop risk )
Heavier
Harder to change tyres
Run hotter
Worse mileage (see 2 and 4)
Chance of twist in tube or tyre damage causing flat ( both happened to me in last few years)
But your point prob more important to most on here

[pyoungbl]

A year ago I had a flat on a brand new tire.  The shop must have pinched the tube when installing the new tire.  It took about 10 miles on the Interstate for the pinch to turn into a flat.  The tire must have spun on the rim because the tube was shredded.  Now there was no way to fix the flat short of replacing the tube.  The only way to be totally prepared is to carry a replacement tube and since my tires are different sizes I'd need to have two tubes.  That's why I'm going to convert my wheels to run tubeless tires.

[wirespokes]

I’ve ran both tube and tubeless over the past 50 years. Other than the issue of being easier and more convenient to fix a flat, on the road, someone please enlighten us on the woes of a tube in a tire.

The main advantage, along with all of those already mentioned, is that tubes, when punctured, tend to deflate rapidly. Sometimes very rapidly without warning. Or the tube can pop with the same catastrophic results.

Tubeless most often will leak very slowly. The puncture stays relatively sealed with the nail or screw still embedded. You'll notice it next day in the garage when the tire is low. If the tire gets a bad slice or badly damaged and the air rushes out, it's really no different than the same happening with tubes.

[John Croucher]

I used 3M Marine Glue/Sealant.  Tried the tape.  Putting the tire on and off broke the seal.  Centrifugal force will eventually cause the tape to pull away also. 

The sealant process is easy, but takes several days to apply.  Clean/wash the rim in soapy water, Blow water out of spoke nipples, wipe with denatured alcohol.  Apply sealant to each nipple, let cure for 24 hours, add second coat around rim, let cure 24 hours, apply 3rd layer and smooth out.  Let final coat cure for 48 hours.  Using acetone on finger tip to smooth and to clean up excess.  Use a motorcycle tubeless valve stem from NAPA. 

I did this on a set of Excell aluminum rims.  Cleaning up the "flash and mold marks on the sealing surfaces of the tire with scotchbrite pad helps to make for a better seal. 

[John Croucher]

Extra unsprung weight. A tube weight between 2 and 3 pounds. More heat can be generated. Carrying extra tubes takes up a lot more space than a plug kit.

When I went tubeless, aluminum from steel Borrini and machined some material of brake rotor carrier and hubs, reduced the weight per wheel set by about 10 pounds each.

[Matt Story]

Has anyone successfully converted early Tonti rims to tubeless?  I am thinking specifically of the Borranis on my 850-T.  Are these rims suitable?

[jacksonracingcomau]

I used 3M Marine Glue/Sealant.  Tried the tape.  Putting the tire on and off broke the seal.  Centrifugal force will eventually cause the tape to pull away.

I did this on a set of Excell aluminum rims.  Cleaning up the "flash and mold marks on the sealing surfaces of the tire with scotchbrite pad helps to make for a better seal. 

If those pix are the tape that failed, not same tape but guess prep was problem ( or grease as tyre lube , believe me, some clown on here actually did that )

Was only really showing 90 deg valve, if anything is contentious, not intended, mods deal as appropriate please.
But 4412 is the dog’s,

[John Croucher]

If those pix are the tape that failed, not same tape but guess prep was problem ( or grease as tyre lube , believe me, some clown on here actually did that )

Was only really showing 90 deg valve, if anything is contentious, not intended, mods deal as appropriate please.
But 4412 is the dog’s,

The images are the 3M sealant.  Tried the tape.  Tried the tape with Gorilla tape over it also. There are also some people marketing a spoke sealant tape product. 

The 3M tape is sticky stuff.

Being the Clown that I am, I have moistened the rubber surface of many tires with grease before mounting.  Not globs though.  Wipe own, wipe off after mounting with degreaser then inflated,   Then again, people use to run sheet metal screws thru the rim and into their tires to keep them from spinning.  May try that if the grease is too slick and the rim spins when the tire goes flat. 

I think this Mod is something some people do for various reasons.  Loosing 10 pounds could be easier and cheaper by pushing away from the diner table a little more often also. Using the money saved on food to buy quality tires when needed.  Being a skinny guy, losing 10 pounds would suck and be expensive buying a new wardrobe. 

I have spent 1,000's of hours making changes to motorcycles over the years along with replacing perfectly good parts with other parts that did not make any significant changes to my ability to ride or the motorcycles over all performance.  It is a labor of love and a hobby to me.  Nearly every motorcycle I have owned or ridden would perform beyond my ability to ride them to their full extent. Yet I continue to work and spend money on them. 

[Roebling3]

A caution, if you will?
I thought the 90 deg. angled valve stems were a good idea.  Out of 6 four would not hold air - and the caps, with no gasket, go on and off feeling as though dipped in sand.  The internal thread for the valve core and the sealing surface were poorly machined. An hour messing with this junk and I had 2 reliably holding air. Purchased 6 replacement stem caps w/gaskets. Nice idea. A crappy execution.

I converted my yclept racer's wire wheels to 'Stone' wheels b4 it left the dealer.  Tubes in tires can ruin your day.  R3~

[pyoungbl]

A caution, if you will?
I thought the 90 deg. angled valve stems were a good idea.  Out of 6 four would not hold air - and the caps, with no gasket, go on and off feeling as though dipped in sand.  The internal thread for the valve core and the sealing surface were poorly machined.

My experience has been totally different.  I buy my 83 degree valve stems from Kurvey Girl (www.kurveygirl.com) and have had no problems at all.  I guess it's a matter of getting what you paid for.  A pair of stems from Kurvey Girl will set you back almost $30.  They are well made and their service is quick.  The site also sells other useful motorcycle stuff.  If you buy your parts at a discount shop....you know where I'm going.

[jacksonracingcomau]

My experience has been totally different.  I buy my 83 degree valve stems from Kurvey Girl (www.kurveygirl.com) and have had no problems at all.  I guess it's a matter of getting what you paid for.  A pair of stems from Kurvey Girl will set you back almost $30.  They are well made and their service is quick.  The site also sells other useful motorcycle stuff.  If you buy your parts at a discount shop....you know where I'm going.

Ditto, 3 totally different suppliers
But , as always, fitter’s responsibility, nuff said.

Grease on tyre same , my life worth more than price of tyre lube, YMMV

[wirespokes]

Grease on tyre same , my life worth more than price of tyre lube, YMMV

I'll second the comment on tire lube! A tub only costs about fifteen bucks and will easily last three lifetimes. It's a BIG tub!

Grease isn't good for rubber unless you're talking silicone. Even then, tire lube works much better.

John - how many wheels can be converted with one 10oz tube of that sealant?

[Matt Story]

Regarding my earlier post - making 850-T borrani rims tubeless.

Apparently, Greg Bender and others have done similar.  http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_tires_-_tubeless_conversion.html

Neither write up here specifically mentions any bike 850-T or later.  Not having my rims torn down right now, I'd say the rims pictured in the link match mine.  I wonder about the radial grooves on the seal lip.  Wouldn't those be sources for leaks?  I guess not...

Can anyone speak to the viability for 850-t rims?

[Huzo]

I’ve ran both tube and tubeless over the past 50 years. Other than the issue of being easier and more convenient to fix a flat, on the road, someone please enlighten us on the woes of a tube in a tire.

If a tube lets go, the air in the tyre can leak through the rim and the deflation rate is dramatic.
My Norge ones have been sealed since before I joined this forum.

[wavedog]

The wheels on my 01 Jackal have been tubless for several years. The rear was done with a 3M sealant following advice from Bigbikerick. I used the 3M tube of goo because I hadn't yet heard of the 3M gell tape. The rear has held up well through several tires. The 4211 gell tape was used on the front. Easy, quick, light, holds up really well. Good prep is vital.  I went to tubeless because I wanted the simplicity.
The reasoning for not buying a bike because it does not have tube-less wheels is just not valid. Get some 3M gell tape, spend part of a Saturday doing an easy, inexpensive and reliable conversion. Good to go.

[mechanicsavant]

If I remember my old racing info correctly, the ratio is . Every Lb. you take from unsprung weight is equal to 10 Lbs. of chassis weight !

[wirespokes]

The 4211 gell tape was used on the front. Easy, quick, light, holds up really well. Good prep is vital.

I googled for 3M gel tape and nothing specific came up. Could you give us a link?

How did you apply it? One layer over each nipple dimple?

[pyoungbl]

Here's a video showing the entire process.  Note that he uses the 3M 5200 adhesive/sealant plus the 3M tape.  That's a double barrier to air leaks.  One comment, I have used 5200 on lots of marine projects and you need to understand that it is not meant to be taken apart...ever.  It might be smarter to use 4200, another 3M marine product that does the same job but can be removed at a later date.  The seal will be the same.  If you ever break a spoke it will be a real PITA to get that 5200 to release the nipple, if ever.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzoqi_4X7o

[acguzzi]

I have sealed Boranni's successfully and ran them for several years before changing to 17 inch rims, which I also sealed, using rtv and cutting up a tube to create a rim strip with the valve included. One tip, use a smaller inner tube than you really need (eg 17 inch instead of 18inch) so it will be snug on the wheel rim when you make the rim strip.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I googled for 3M gel tape and nothing specific came up. Could you give us a link?

How did you apply it? One layer over each nipple dimple?

Try google with this, Should get US suppliers, I get UK ones from here
3m extreme sealing tape 4411  and   4412
One layer, overlapping a few inches over valve hole

[guzzista]

Tried the 3M Extreme tape 4412 ( found on Amazon for 25 bux or about the same price as a decent tube). Did not use a angled valve because a straight on was on hand and free. After scrubbing the surface with a wire brush, some Goofoff remover, tt became  clear that the tape sticks like the proverbial s--t to a blanket. The 2 inch version fit the rear rim of the Cali1100 perfectly. Riding it for the next couple days while monitoring for any air loss....Thanks JRC!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Regarding my earlier post - making 850-T borrani rims tubeless.

Apparently, Greg Bender and others have done similar.  http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_tires_-_tubeless_conversion.html

Neither write up here specifically mentions any bike 850-T or later.  Not having my rims torn down right now, I'd say the rims pictured in the link match mine.  I wonder about the radial grooves on the seal lip.  Wouldn't those be sources for leaks?  I guess not...

Can anyone speak to the viability for 850-t rims?

Austin and I did our G5 rims. I *assume* they are similar..

[larrys]

Here's a video showing the entire process.  Note that he uses the 3M 5200 adhesive/sealant plus the 3M tape.  That's a double barrier to air leaks.  One comment, I have used 5200 on lots of marine projects and you need to understand that it is not meant to be taken apart...ever.  It might be smarter to use 4200, another 3M marine product that does the same job but can be removed at a later date.  The seal will be the same.  If you ever break a spoke it will be a real PITA to get that 5200 to release the nipple, if ever.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzoqi_4X7o

5200 softens up nicely when heated with a propane torch. It is the only way to get any marine hardware loose that’s been bedded with 5200. I use 3M 4000 above the waterline and 5200 below.
Larry