2013 V7 Stone cranks but won't catch

[jkaelol]

EDIT: it was a bad fuel pump pressure regulator that was not putting out enough pressure to fire her up!

Hi all,

I recently bought a used 2013 MG V7 Stone with ~5600 miles. It had clearly been sitting for a while (plates expired Oct 2018, tires were low, the previous owner has just bought a new battery to get it to boot up) , but the previous owner had said that she would start it up and run it around the block every week or so. When I got there it fired up fine. It would idle a little low for the first minute or two (or until you stoked the engine with some twists of the throttle). I rode it to a gas station and filled up the tires. After that it ran and handled great. I bought it, rode it for an hour or two that day, and then parked it. The next day it would turn over, but would never catch. Apologies in advance for the brain dump, but I have been troubleshooting this thing for 2 weeks now and am about stumped:

Observations during the day it was running:
-low idle at start until it "warmed up". It would die unless you let it idle for a minute or gave it a little extra throttle when starting from first. (For about the first 1-3 minutes of riding)
-slight tick, sounded like it was coming from the left cylinder exhaust valve
-gas light came on after about an hour of riding. The key wouldn't turn in the gas cap, so I coated the key with wd40 and let it sit for 20 min. The key turned fine after that.
-I filled the tank up with 91 octane gas from a station that I have been to

What I have tried:
-kick stand up in first and neutral. Kill switch engaged and disengaged. When the stand is down and not in neutral / when the switch is off it does not crank at all.
-check all fuses. None were visually broken but I swapped them with good ones to make sure.
-check relays (there were three and all had the same model number and pin number, so I swapped them all until I found that each worked in the starter socket).
-empty the gas tank to check for rust. Inside seems generally clean and rust free. The (mostly new) gas seems unfouled and clear.
-replace plastic gas filter with the all metal filter
-check spark plugs. Both gave a strong spark, but seemed pretty fouled so I replaced them both for good measure. The news ones both give a strong spark.
-check the air filter. It is a little dirty, but definitely passable. The bike does not start with the filter removed entirely.
-start the bike with ether. It starts and revs until the ether is burned through, then dies immediately.
-make sure the fuel pump primes when ignition is on. It does.
-check to see if fuel "swirls" in tank when pump primes (in case loose hoses to/from pump).
-pull the injectors and check flow. There was definitely gas getting through the injectors and in the right timing (coincided with the crank). It was a bit more of a 'stream' than a 'mist'.
-clean the injectors. Now they produce a much more disperse spray pattern.
-remove gas cap and housing and clean (thought that maybe I had clogged a cap vent with wd40 or something).
-check to make sure that no vent lines are pinched under the tank.
-take the new battery in to see if it was a lemon (and to recharge it because it was almost dead from the troubleshooting). They charged it overnight and it gave 12.9v with 295CCA.
-compression test the cylinders. They both give ~130psi (could be a little bit more, was using a cheap harbor freight gauge that leaked just a bit).
-adjust valve clearance. All we're pretty close to spec except the left exhaust, which was a little loose. Both intakes set to .15mm and both exhausts now set to .20mm.
-contact previous owner and making it clear that I was not mad and didn't want a refund or an apology or anything, but that if she had any idea at all what it could be I would appreciate it. She said that it was running fine except for the battery and that she had never had issues with it. She was as surprised as I was that it wouldn't start the next day.
-prepare fancy charcuterie atop a wool blanket on the seat and whisper sweet nothings between sips of Italian wine, promising endless adventure together if only it would start.

If anyone has any ideas or insight, I am open to anything at this point. The only shop in my town that works ok Guzzis charges $115/hr, but I'm not far from caving and taking it in. Thanks for any advice you can give!

Tl;dr: new to me 2013 V7 Stone was running for one day after I bought it. Now it will crank, but won't catch. It seems to have spark, fuel, air, and compression and will start with fluid, but will not start otherwise.

[Tom H]

If it starts and runs on starting fluid, I would think there is something wrong with the fuel system. You did say though that the injectors are working. Hmmm???

Tom

[Chuck in Indiana]

First, welcome to WG. It looks like you have done a pretty thorough job of trouble shooting.
Sure sounds fuel related.. but..

low idle at start until it "warmed up". It would die unless you let it idle for a minute or gave it a little extra throttle when starting from first. (For about the first 1-3 minutes of riding)

I think this is fairly normal with them.

The bike does not start with the filter removed entirely.

?

-prepare fancy charcuterie atop a wool blanket on the seat and whisper sweet nothings between sips of Italian wine, promising endless adventure together if only it would start.

Hmmm. Maybe she's allergic to wool? Dunno.
It seems that the problem started with the fill up, but as much as you've messed with it, Shirley  you have good fuel..
Bump to the top. Somebody that fools with the modern small blocks will be along shortly. Don't give up.. 

[jkaelol]

Thanks for the welcome and thank you both for the responses! I agree that it sounds fuel related. At first I thought that maybe filling the tank dragged some gunk off the sides that mucked up the lines or something. But fuel is definitely getting through to the injectors. The cleaning I gave them was amateur (rigged up harness to open the solenoid and compression fitting), but the resulting spray does seem adequate enough that I'd think it would at least catch.

I even drove back to the station I filled up at to make sure that they don't sell diesel. I'm at a complete loss. Would it be worth it to drain the gas again and fill up with entirely new fuel?

[Chuck in Indiana]

If it looks like gas and smells like gas, it's probably gas.  Still, I'm at a loss..

[Dharma Bum]

Timing sensor??

[jkaelol]

Timing sensor??

Does anyone know if a bad timing sensor or crank position sensor would light up the CEL or throw a code on the lcd screen?

[antmanbee]

If you have a bad timing sensor you will not get spark or fuel spraying from the  injectors.

[antmanbee]

So you tested the injectors by hooking them up to another harness?
I would recommend hooking up Guzzi Diag and pulsing the injectors through the bikes ECU and own harness. Under 'actors' in Guzzi Diag you have this option.

[SmithSwede]

Ant man is correct.  It is not a bad crank position sensor.  If that is bad, you won’t get spark or gas, and you are getting both. 

Since it runs on starting fluid, it is surely not spark or compression related.    Must be fuel related, or maybe something with timing of fuel pulse.

What does it do if you leave one injector installed normally and the other removed to see if it sprays gas?   I have this same make and year bike and can confirm that it will start and run (poorly) on just one cylinder.   

I would suspect bad gas since it ran on the old gas but acted up on the new gas.   But you’ve replaced the gas, and I’m assuming you didn’t fill up with diesel. 

I don’t think any of the stuff you mention about the idle is significant.  Mine does that too, especially if it has sat a while. 

[SmithSwede]

This is a real puzzler.    You have done all the logical stuff.   The critical clues are it recently ran ok, and will definitely start and run on ether. 

I think it would be worth draining the tank and replacing it with known good fresh gas.  And disconnect the fuel line to the injectors and let the fuel pump spray out the potentially old/bad gas into a catch can—maybe drain out a liter or so.  Then reconnect and try starting it again knowing for sure it is injecting the good gas.

I would also be tempted to keep spraying the ether into the engine and keep the engine running for a while just to see if it ever starts running on its own fuel.   Maybe developing some heat in the engine would help. 

Since you seem to have spark, fuel and compression it ought to run.    The only thing I can think is maybe the fuel or spark isn’t arriving at the proper time.  But I don’t know how it could get mistimed so badly it would not start.    Maybe remove crank position sensor and clean off the head in case some metal swarf is messing things up. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

As Chuck says you have made a pretty good attempt at troubleshooting
Like SmithSwede i'm wondering if the injectors are gummed up, it's obviously been sitting for a while.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Open up the drawings see the red wire that's common to items 25,26,28,30,32,32,33 &34 it would be nice to know the status of that when its turning over, can you hang a 12V lamp on it, just wrap one wire around relay 28 pin 3 with the other to chassis.
If this is alive (on steady) while cranking it pretty much proves the crank position sensor is working

I had another thought, suppose the pressure regulator is not working (should be about 40 psi) then the injectors would open but no fuel, look and see if there's somewhere to add a pressure gauge.

Do you think the bike might have developed this problem so it was parked, you seem like just the man to get it going.

I think the manual warns against putting 12 Volts on the injectors for long periods. they normally only get it for a few milliseconds.

Welcome to the forum.

[jkaelol]

I tested the injectors by pulling them out and visually inspecting flow. To clean them I rigged up a "harness" to provide the 12v signal to open the solenoid.

I've actually tested them a few times pre and post cleaning. I've tried with only one pulled (the other still inserted in the engine) and with them both pulled. It doesn't run in either case. Perhaps it is delivering fuel, but the pressure is too low? Or the spray is still too concentrated? I'm not exactly sure what a healthy injector spray looks like. It seems like enough that it should catch. Maybe it would be worth it to just drain the tank and add entirely new fuel, just to be sure.


Edit: I just saw the above two posts. I'll get new gas and try with the for sure good gas. I'll also try to clean the sensor. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll report back!

[SmithSwede]

Ok, this is bugging me.

One other clue is this bike is new to you.   How are you trying to start it?  My 2013 Stone starts fine with the throttle closed.   Once it “catches” I can give it some throttle, but I certainly don’t try to start it initially with a lot of open throttle. 

Another thought.  I’m assuming that when you spray the ether, you are holding the throttle partially open to get the spray past the throttle plate.  So one possible difference is that with ether it is getting plenty of air (and fuel) and therefore runs.   But maybe when you try to crank it normally the engine doesn’t get enough air.   Have you tried thoroughly cleaning the throttle body?  Maybe there is some crud blocking something?

 I think there is some kind of air inlet at the 6:00 position on the air intake side of these throttle bodies, which I would focus on with some carb cleaner.  I spoke with a Guzzi mechanic once who had made a shortened spray hose precisely for the purpose of cleaning this inlet, and am pretty sure he said a dirty one could affect starting and idling. 

Related idea.   What happens if you loosen the rubber intake tracks to cylinders?  To let in more air downstream of the throttle body?  For that matter, are you sure all these connections are tight?

There is an exhaust cross over tube underneath the engine which is notorious for getting loose, letting in air, and causing poor running.   Tighten the clamps on each end of the cross over.

What do the spark plugs look like after you have cranked it a lot?   Wet and fouled with fuel?  I have had lots of crank position sensor problems and can confirm that once these plugs get wet with fuel, my Guzzi could no longer spark them.

[SmithSwede]

I share your curiosity about the injectors.   Unfortunately I don’t know what the spray pattern looks like for a normal injector, or how much fuel a normal injector should spray over some known time period.

But yeah.  Maybe the spray patten looks ok out in the open, but it’s not good enough under 130 psi.   

Is it possible the fuel pump isn’t developing enough pressure?  Could that be bad electrical supply?  Sorry, I don’t know enough about fuel injection on Guzzi. 

Are you certain the fuel lines to injectors are not kinked and the connectors are secure?  Maybe try starting it with the fuel tank propped partially up so you can visually confirm no kinks, no fuel misting from a leaky connector.   

I’d also try to crank it with fuel cap removed so you don’t have to worry about potential vacuum in tank.   Take due precautions as to fire risk. 

Can you maybe fill the injectors up with carb cleaner and let them soak a while?

[antmanbee]

When the injectors are pulsed with Guzzi Diag they emit a brief puff of mist five times. You select either left or right. It should be an even puff, not lopsided.

[John A]

Mice in the exhaust?

[guzzi771]

I would drain the tank and check for a bad fuel filter it's a common problem on V7's it happen on mine with only 900 miles

[jkaelol]

Just a quick update:

I pulled the throttle bodies and cleaned them out with some injector cleaner. They were pretty dirty, but nothing bad enough to block flow of air or fuel. The inside of the chamber is pretty gunky too, especially given that it's got only a little more than 5k miles on the clock. Tried pulling the intake tracks too. No luck. I drained what amount of fuel I could siphon but haven't put more in yet. And might have found a hint! When the fuel tank is low there is a moaning that is coming from the tank. It happens after the pump primes and after I try starting it. When I take off the gas cap now there is quite a bit of pressure released. Maybe a vent is blocked, causing a vacuum? I tried with the cap off and still no start, however.
Maybe related: coming out of the tank there are three flanges: two from the pump assembly (one that goes to the injectors, one I don't know) the third one is near the front of the tank and at the top. When I first took the tank off there was nothing connected to it, but there was a disconnected hose nearby that I plugged into it. Was that a mistake?

To answer some questions:
guzz771: I read a lot about the swelling of the plastic fuel filters and thought at first that that had to be it. Replacing the fuel filter with an all metal one was one of the first things I did.
John: honestly, taking the exhaust off to check for stoppage is on the last ditch list.
Ant: I don't have the diag tool. =(
Smith: I think there is some vacuum effect, but it does not fire up with the cap off. (I was careful, so I didn't fire up either).
-I tried starting with the tank propped up while siphoning. Not visible leaks or mists. The lines don't appear kinked at all.
-I soaked the injectors with carb cleaner for ~20 min each before running some cleaner through them with the solenoid open.
-I have tried starting it with no throttle, wot, 1/4 throttle, 1/2 throttle, and 3/4 throttle. It doesn't seem to make a difference.
-When I started it with the ether it was actually just sprayed into the airbox without the throttle plate open at all. I just tried it with ether and an open throttle plate. Same results, it will burn through the ether and then die.
-I tried it with intake tracks off too. No luck. All connections on these tubes were tight before I removed them from the engine.
-I was not able to identify the exhaust crossover tube. There are, however, two loose hoses hanging beneath the engine. They are really gunked up and not connected to anything. Maybe one of them is the crossover??
-The spark plugs are a little grimy after all of these attempts. Nothing like the old ones. They smell like gas after immediately removing them following failed start attempts.

I'm not sure that this not starting issue is why the bike was sitting for so long. It fired up absolutely fine when I was test riding it and a few times thereafter (ie: before fueling up and letting it sit overnight). Rogue speculation, but I think the previous owner laid it down (some damage to head cover and indicator post) and was skeptical about getting back in the saddle. Maybe I'm reading her too generously, but she seemed genuinely surprised and sorry that it was giving me issues.

[Tom H]

Let's see if I/we understand this right.

Bike was running as is when you bought it. Tires were low and it needed gas, at least per the fuel light. Just curious, how much gas did it take about? Maybe that is something???

You got home and parked it overnight and then it wouldn't start. Cranks just fine, no start. Spay some starting fluid into the air cleaner box and it runs. I'm guessing that as long as you spray, it will keep running.

Is there anything else that you did after you parked it?

Still sounds like fuel is not getting to the cylinder. Not a spark plugs or ignition timing issue.

A question for those that know this model. If you remove the air tube from the filter box to the injector body, would you be able to see a fuel spay looking into the injector body while cranking? Or is it too small to see it?

Edit: Are you sure it getting fuel pressure st the imjectors??

If you live close enough to a member that has the free program Guzzidiag and the cables to hook it up to the bike, that may help a bit. Or if you have time, buy the cables. Lonelec as well as Amazon sell what is needed.


Sorry I don't have an answer for you. This has me bugged too.

Tom

[jkaelol]

Let's see if I/we understand this right.

Bike was running as is when you bought it. Tires were low and it needed gas, at least per the fuel light. Just curious, how much gas did it take about? Maybe that is something???

You got home and parked it overnight and then it wouldn't start. Cranks just fine, no start. Spay some starting fluid into the air cleaner box and it runs. I'm guessing that as long as you spray, it will keep running.

Is there anything else that you did after you parked it?

Still sounds like fuel is not getting to the cylinder. Not a spark plugs or ignition timing issue.

A question for those that know this model. If you remove the air tube from the filter box to the injector body, would you be able to see a fuel spay looking into the injector body while cranking? Or is it too small to see it?

Edit: Are you sure it getting fuel pressure st the imjectors??

If you live close enough to a member that has the free program Guzzidiag and the cables to hook it up to the bike, that may help a bit. Or if you have time, buy the cables. Lonelec as well as Amazon sell what is needed.


Sorry I don't have an answer for you. This has me bugged too.

Tom

My first post was a bit of a brain dump so apologies of it didn't make total sense. It was running just fine when I bought it. The tires were flat and the plates were out of date, which made me assume it was not being ridden regularly.
I bought it and rode it to a gear store to get a helmet and gloves and rode it around town for an hour or so, perhaps 40 miles total. During the ride the gas light came on. I took that as a sign to gas it up and turn in. I put in about 4 gallons of 91 octane premium fuel and then parked it at home. The next day it didn't run.

I took off the hose leading to the throttle body this evening (kind of a pita) and I don't think that I would be able to see the spray because of the angle. I could try to take it off again to see. I know that the injectors are getting some pressure, enough to visibly push fuel through and leave a light trace ~2-3ft away. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge though, so I do not know if it is in spec.

I am in Tucson, AZ and would happily buy a beer, coffee, etc for anyone in the area who could lend the diag tool to me for an afternoon. No worries, I am happy to have more ideas to try and feel better than I am not the only one stumped!

[malik]

I know you said it failed to start before you started trouble shooting, but I would double check that the hose from the fuel filter to the place hasn't come off (it can), and that the fuel filter is pointed in the right direction (the metal ones often have an arrow or some other indicator showing the direction of fuel flow. That said, if you are getting spray from the injectors, the fuel pump may be working properly.

Do clean out the airbox - oil in there means the engine has been overfilled - 2 litres is too much on these. Do replace the air filter - the paper ones are best.

You could try removing the breather hoses (painful, I know) from the back of the rocker covers, and from the T junction & check they are free - pass some solvent through. I would have thought that even if blocked, the bike should fire up.

I shall ponder more on this mystery.

I don't know if the U.S. ones are different, I think you have extra anti pollution stuff in there, but under the tank we have the so called QD connector coming out of the fuel pump plate, then the wires for the fuel pump, then, a little further back on the other side, a black hose which connects to the fuel overflow spigot. (Note that this tube can harden & split - when it does harden, cut an inch off & reconnect - you probably have to wiggle it back through one or two cable ties to get the length - but this shouldn't effect your starting)

[fossil]

Just a quick update:

I pulled the throttle bodies and cleaned them out with some injector cleaner. They were pretty dirty, but nothing bad enough to block flow of air or fuel.

One question: Throttle bodies? Is this a typo or ist it not a single throttle body model, as a 2013 Stone in my understanding - and in my garage - is?

[malik]

One more thing, tho' I wouldn't think it critical - I found the connection between the post of the stock spark plug & the cap to be unreliable, so I changed the plugs to NGK CR9EK & the caps the XD05F to get a reliable spark. Also ensure there is no corrosion on the wire at the end of the HT cables that connect to the caps (they screw in).

Throttle bodies? The Stone should have just one - hidden behind that long plastic manifold & in front of the airbox. If you have 2 throttle bodies, it's an earlier V7 (with 15RC written on the ECU) which requires the clutch to be pulled in, in order to start. One these, if the LHS switch lock has been nudged upwards, the lump on it can prevent the clutch switch closing.

[pat80flh]

If it runs on ether the ignition system is good, must be fuel. I usually start on the last thing I touched, fuel filter/pump hoses. I don't know the spec but I assume they run 30=50 psi, should try to push your finger off hose when pump is energized.

[Bisbonian]

I am in Tucson, AZ and would happily buy a beer, coffee, etc for anyone in the area who could lend the diag tool to me for an afternoon. No worries, I am happy to have more ideas to try and feel better than I am not the only one stumped!

If the needed cable for Guzzidiag is the same as for my 1200 Sport hen you are welcome to borrow it. I'm not sure if my old laptop has the program on it, if it does then it's probably an old version.

Shoot me a pm if you want the cable, I'm in Tucson as well.

[jkaelol]

Good catch on the throttle bodies comment, Malik and fossil! My bad, I actually cleaned whatever metal part houses the injectors. Today I will double check the pump, fuel lines since the tank is already empty and will try to get to the (actual) throttle body. Though I do agree with Pat that it is probably fuel related.

If those fail then I may ask Bis to borrow his diag tool (thanks!) Anyone know what I would be checking with it / of the 1200 sport and the v7 share connections? Thank you all for the good catches and suggestions.

[John A]

Put new plugs in,  once they have been flooded they oftentimes are ruined even if they fire outside of the engine.  Modern fuels can contaminate the insulator.  After a failed start, cycle the kill switch to reset the ecu . These are prolly not the problem but are good practices.

[Chuck in Indiana]

 ^^^^ Yeah, once a plug is fouled, throw it away. They're cheap.

[LowRyter]

clogged fuel filter?   or was this covered?