Fighting frustration with the brand

[MotoG5]

With so many other bikes to buy out there why stick with something you find to be unsatisfactory for you and what you want to get out of riding motorcycles? Its not like MG is the only option you have. I have been riding Guzzi for almost fifty years now and have had many issues but I keep riding the brand because I like the total package of people and the smile the bikes have given me for all of these years. It is simply a matter that what I want in riding is served by the bikes and I keep doing it because it makes my day. Problems and all. And yes Shorty I am a life long member of the MGNOC. And I don't look down on anyone for what they ride or what type of riding they are into. Guzzi is a very small side bar in motorcylcling and is surly not for everyone into riding. All of the Guzzi events I have attended in the many years I have been riding the brand have been open to all brands of bikes and a good time time has been the order of the day. The brad is what it is and if the problems that come along with that are not what you want then by all means go out and find what will make your riding experience what you want it to be. As others have noted your time is best spent doing what you find to be the best for you.

[pete roper]

So what exactly is this clutch doing to make you think it’s buggered?

[Kev m]

It is? How so? I know a bloke in a wheelchair who with a bit of assisting with lifting can have the gearbox of a B11 on the floor in 2.5 hours. When I made a rod for my own back with a 1200 Sport and had to get the gearbox out three times n the last time I think it took me 40 minutes! But that was practice and the need for it was all my own fault!

Pete

Good to know, but he's done it a few times and had a good mentor. The shops around here were reluctant to tackle it and charged Jay significantly both in parts and labor IIRC.

Story as old as time in the Guzzi world, at least here in the US.

[Old Jock]

I'll spare you (most of) the details, but I know the feeling and you have my sympathy

2 of my 3 having been giving me the fits and the 3rd took a while to sort out.

That said once they are sorted because they are reasonably simple engines and gearboxes my experience is that they are pretty reliable, perhaps not Japanese reliable but good nevertheless

The problem with the 2 I'm currently battling with is they came out of the factory around 99-2000 and the quality control at that time was appallling at best, I hope it improved.

One with less than 10k needing the cylinders relined and one with less than 5k and some sort of low oil pressure/high oil temperature

[Furbo]

Last time Guzzi was  my main ride was around 2006. It was an SP III. It was a nice enough bike, but I have several pics of it dismantled by the road. Replaced it with a 05 Kawasaki Concours and never looked back. Have 70K on the C-10 now and no issues. Still have and ride Guzzi's.....but.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

.

[Milosh]

I have had my V9 for 3 months and 1,000 miles and my horn doesn't work. The other day I found my tail-light and brake light don't either.

My nearest dealer is 2.5 hours away or so.

I'm looking forward to the excellent warranty service that Moto Guzzi is known for. 

[LowRyter]

There's a rumor that Luap is going to change the name of the forum to

GUZZI ANONYMOUS

Next we'll have GA meetings.   

[Sheepdog]

What is the clutch lever end-play on the Breva?

[Kev m]

What is the clutch lever end-play on the Breva?

Hydraulic clutches don't have an adjustment or generally even a specification. The play is determined by the clutch master cylinder bore and stroke.

I guess a knackered slave or master cylinder would prevent it from fully releasing allowing the clutch to slip and burn.

At this point I don't THINK there's anything more that can be checked without disassembly, but Pete can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Lannis]

After I did a bit of thinking about "Yep, I've been there; yep, I've felt that frustration" (as many of us have with out Guzzis, I suspect), I stepped back and took a larger view.

We're talking about a 12-year-old Italian motorcycle, and a 35-year-old Italian motorcycle here.

I mean, what sort of 35-year-old ANYTHINGS will take you back and forth to work with little or no trouble?

The issue could just as easily be about a 12-year-old Fiat and a 35-year-old Dodge pickup truck, or a pair of Honda motorcycles.   Like, what are we expecting out of our Italian exotics these days?

We all know about, and love to hear about, the folks that have 250,000 miles on their Guzzis, and there are quite a few.   But their level of mechanical and electrical expertise, or their access to the same, is commensurate with the performance their getting out of their antiques .... ?

Just maundering.

Lannis

[guzzisteve]

Worn clutch plates, from what I just read. I had one at 15K mi or some such mileage. He had come off a Aprillia Mana and was sitting on hills riding the clutch at lights. It wore out. Maybe before you got it this had happened. The thing has those crappy, come apart, plates in it.

[Bulldog9]

So sorry you are frustrated, and unable to ride. I made a similar decision with my old Yamaha's back in the early 90's. Didn't/couldn't trust them anymore for daily riding. I bought a C-10 Concours.  Because I couldn't let go of my XS11, and lets be honest, it wasn't and still isn't worth squat to sell, I kept it. It's been in storage since 2012, and hope one day to get it running again and ride locally.

I'm relatively new to Guzzi, bought my first (a 2007 Griso) in 2015, added a Norge, then a Stornello, and recently traded the Norge for an MGX (jury is still out on that decision). I've put almost 8K on the Griso, 4K on the Stornello, 10K on the Norge and 3K on the MGX so far and all have been completely trouble free other than an initial problem with the Norge that once sorted was a very nice bike.

Before giving up on the brand, maybe try one of the newer models? Or if you go to something else, keep the one Guzzi you really like, get it sorted and running and know you have at least one reliable bike. I really like the new CB1000 R and CB1100, though the Kawasaki Z900 looks to be the best of the retro Japanese bikes.

[oldbike54]

 It is kinda strange , reports of Jackals being unreliable , exploding clutches , all kinds of electrical issues with certain models . Not doubting anyone's statements , these things aren't a Honda , but I have had pretty good luck with the '01 Jackal , as did the PO . Yeah, it needed a transmission bearing at 80K miles , and she started getting kinda tired at about 140K miles , but the old girl just kept going . Hoping now that the Bassa is beginning to get sorted that it will make 100K miles W/O any real drama . As always , YMMV . Just my 2 cents worth .

 There was the broken green wire incident that required sleeping on the ground next to the old Jackal , but that didn't really cost anything to fix 

 Dusty

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

.

[Rough Edge racing]

Let me first say, I have clutch fluid, it's full & clean. The lever is not fouling anything on the bars, the little widget is activating the clutch lever switch, and the clutch seems to be engaging, as you can (sorta) change gears.

I rode the bike to work, it seemed fine, has been working perfectly.

When I went to leave work, I start the bike and put it in first, give it throttle and let off the clutch, but the bike barely wants to roll....  That's weird, engine sounds normal but when you pull in the clutch, the normal dry clutch clackty chatter seems very subdued--deff not loud as normal.

Again pull the clutch, check that i'm in first? Where is neutral?, I think I'm now in first... revv it up and let off the clutch... bike rolls lazily, but deff doesn't bite and take off??  Now I am crossing the parking lot at 5k rpm and barely doing 15mph.  Pull the clutch, click gears up & down trying to find positive engagement... 2nd and 3rd SEEM to be there, but still not positively in gear it feels?

Big hill to roll down, so I clutch & hunt around, trying to get into a gear that will propel me forward...  Rolling home, cannot climb even a mild hill...  For all the world it feels like I am riding with the clutch pulled in 2/3 of the way and it is just slipping at the engagement point....  As if I am slipping the clutch constantly.

I only live a couple easy miles from work, wife is at work, no one to call so I try to limp home.

I ride home, 5-6k rpm in second & third (never went higher) because I'm going 20mph with the engine roaring.  Now i smell clutch. I can feel the heat radiating off the engine & trans.  Again, if feels like I am riding with the clutch pulled in 1/2 way and it's just slipping at engagement point.

Make it home, oh boy i can really smell clutch now...  coast into driveway and around the side of the house to garage.  Stop the bike, the heat off the engine & trans are intense. Can't touch either for more than a split second (i am a chef and have excellent hot hands).

After it cools I check engine, trans, and final drive fluids plus clutch fluid... all are full and in good condition.  Pull the timing plug and try to see in the bell housing, looks clean and dry in there and the gear is in perfect shape.

So those were my symptoms... any advice is appreciated.

 My opinion, the bike suddenly got a clutch release issue...You tried to ride with the the clutch partially engaged..It smoked and likley glazed and needs replacement whether it did or not before...Might be other defective parts inside...It sucks that's for sure...

[wirespokes]

Try backing off the adjustment. Quite possibly that's the issue. Like brakes, if the master cylinder piston covers the return hole, the brakes will lock on. So if the clutch master is somewhat engaged all the time, the clutch will be activated.

[oldbike54]

Try backing off the adjustment. Quite possibly that's the issue. Like brakes, if the master cylinder piston covers the return hole, the brakes will lock on. So if the clutch master is somewhat engaged all the time, the clutch will be activated.

 Good idea 

 Dusty

[TN Mark]

Mayor,

     So sorry to read about your frustration. But as has already been posted, Moto Guzzi is not the only fun motorcycle brand. On this forum Moto Guzzis obviously hold special power over some. Put the least amount of money as you can into your current Guzzis and either trade them off or sell them and move on. Either that or move them to a corner of the garage for some time in the future when you're looking for a project. As you know, even in a small niche brand, neither of your two current Guzzis hold any particular value because they're not collectible, so the less additional money you pour into them the better.

     Life is way too short to have so much frustration with a hobby item. Motorcycling is an amazingly enjoyable activity. Don't let a particular brand or model ruin it for you. Remember, every brand and most models of motorcycles have internet forums with dedicated owners who love what they're riding. Explore a little, increase your enjoyment and reduce your stress. All will be well again, it really will.

[huub]

gee, you are really not lucky....
the main reason i ride a guzzi is the reliability, i run a v65 as a daily transport hav been doing so for years...
first a V65TT, now a lario.
combined over 200.000 km.
basically you need a good mechanic
there is nothing in a smallblock complicated enough to need to be repaired twice.
even a clutch change shouldnt take more than half a day.

having said that , the only time i managed to destroy a V65 clutch in 20kkm  was when using my V65TT for off road racing.
even then , the clutch plate was not worn , but had rattled to bits
makes me wonder what happened to your breva , to cause the clutch to fail.

I know your frustration , i once used a cagiva 900 elefant as a daily transport, basicaly spent most of my weekends on maintenance and repairs, just to see it break down when i needed it..
not funny....

[MotoG5]

I have had my V9 for 3 months and 1,000 miles and my horn doesn't work. The other day I found my tail-light and brake light don't either.

My nearest dealer is 2.5 hours away or so.

I'm looking forward to the excellent warranty service that Moto Guzzi is known for. 

Have you checked your fuses? Has any work been done on the bike for its first service yet. Sometimes things can happen when a new bike is serviced that might have caused an issue.

[pete roper]

Let me first say, I have clutch fluid, it's full & clean. The lever is not fouling anything on the bars, the little widget is activating the clutch lever switch, and the clutch seems to be engaging, as you can (sorta) change gears.

I rode the bike to work, it seemed fine, has been working perfectly.

When I went to leave work, I start the bike and put it in first, give it throttle and let off the clutch, but the bike barely wants to roll....  That's weird, engine sounds normal but when you pull in the clutch, the normal dry clutch clackty chatter seems very subdued--deff not loud as normal.

Again pull the clutch, check that i'm in first? Where is neutral?, I think I'm now in first... revv it up and let off the clutch... bike rolls lazily, but deff doesn't bite and take off??  Now I am crossing the parking lot at 5k rpm and barely doing 15mph.  Pull the clutch, click gears up & down trying to find positive engagement... 2nd and 3rd SEEM to be there, but still not positively in gear it feels?

Big hill to roll down, so I clutch & hunt around, trying to get into a gear that will propel me forward...  Rolling home, cannot climb even a mild hill...  For all the world it feels like I am riding with the clutch pulled in 2/3 of the way and it is just slipping at the engagement point....  As if I am slipping the clutch constantly.

I only live a couple easy miles from work, wife is at work, no one to call so I try to limp home.

I ride home, 5-6k rpm in second & third (never went higher) because I'm going 20mph with the engine roaring.  Now i smell clutch. I can feel the heat radiating off the engine & trans.  Again, if feels like I am riding with the clutch pulled in 1/2 way and it's just slipping at engagement point.

Make it home, oh boy i can really smell clutch now...  coast into driveway and around the side of the house to garage.  Stop the bike, the heat off the engine & trans are intense. Can't touch either for more than a split second (i am a chef and have excellent hot hands).

After it cools I check engine, trans, and final drive fluids plus clutch fluid... all are full and in good condition.  Pull the timing plug and try to see in the bell housing, looks clean and dry in there and the gear is in perfect shape.

So those were my symptoms... any advice is appreciated.

Just PM'd you. I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is and how to fix it.

[Milosh]

Have you checked your fuses? Has any work been done on the bike for its first service yet. Sometimes things can happen when a new bike is serviced that might have caused an issue.

I was about to do the 1,000 mile service yesterday. The horn is ALSO out, which I suspect is a relay. I did check the fuses, after checking the voltages supplied to the tail-light and brake light, which were pitifully low, on the order of millivolts. The one filament for the tail-light was broken, while the brake light was still functional (testing with 9V and continuity).

My point is, that's two electrical problems too many for a 1,000 mile bike.

I hope it's just teething, but I'm aware of another V9 with the tail-light issue.

[coast range rider]

Just PM'd you. I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is and how to fix it.

Rear main seal leaking?

[Kiwi Dave]

I'm guessing the hydraulic clutch reservoir is faulty.  Does it have a breather hole on the cap?  Is this blocked perchance?

[SmithSwede]

Personally, I’d crack open the hydraulics somewhere and see if it is under pressure even though the clutch lever isn’t depressed.    Maybe releasing pressure on clutch hydraulics would show you that you now have full clutch engagement.    Can you put it on a centerstand and rotate the rear wheel to gauge clutch function?

I like the suggestion that the lever doesn’t have enough free travel to uncover the other port.  I once eliminated a bit too much “free travel” on the rear brake on a BMW F800S.  Seemed fine at first.   But slowly the pressure built up until the rear wheel was locked up due to brake pressure.   Turns out that this system needed a fair bit of free play to uncover the other port and release pressure.   

Your symptoms sound like the clutch equivalent of my rear brake adventure. 

Of course, now it’s possible you really do have clutch problems due to all the slipping and heat from trying to get home.    Or maybe not.   I suspect these things may be pretty tough. 

[pete roper]

Personally, I’d crack open the hydraulics somewhere and see if it is under pressure even though the clutch lever isn’t depressed.    Maybe releasing pressure on clutch hydraulics would show you that you now have full clutch engagement.    Can you put it on a centerstand and rotate the rear wheel to gauge clutch function?

I like the suggestion that the lever doesn’t have enough free travel to uncover the other port.  I once eliminated a bit too much “free travel” on the rear brake on a BMW F800S.  Seemed fine at first.   But slowly the pressure built up until the rear wheel was locked up due to brake pressure.   Turns out that this system needed a fair bit of free play to uncover the other port and release pressure.   

Your symptoms should like the clutch equivalent of my rear brake adventure. 

Of course, now it’s possible you really do have clutch problems due to all the slipping and heat from trying to get home.    Or maybe not.   I suspect these things may be pretty tough.

This is my theory.

I'm betting that the plunger on the clutch lever has wound itself out, pushing the piston in and not only blocking the bleed port but also engaging the clutch mechanism. While stopped heat soak-back has made the fluid expand making a bad situation worse.

First thing to do is pull the remote bleeder hose out from under the seat, get a 14mm spanner and a 10mm spanner, point the nipple away from the bike or anything you don't want squirted with brake fluid and crack the bleed nipple. If it ejaculates a squirt of brake fluid you may even hear the plates thump back into engagement. Now stick it in gear ad push it fore and aft, (Don't touch the clutch.). If it thumps against the gear dogs and tries to turn the motor you know the clutch is now home and must of been being held in engagement by hydraulic pressure. The cause for that is almost certainly that bloody adjustable plunger on the clutch lever itself.

Pete

[AH Fan]

Yup …..they're not for everyone.
That's why I love em       

Ciao

[brenwin]

Thanks for your post Mayor , I’ve had some pretty interesting times myself over the years but can’t seem to give Guzzi the goodbye kiss . My first was a 1000SP used and the main seal started puking oil after about 2000 km . Sold it to a fellow enthusiast who had the talent and time to get it back on the road . Bought a new 07 Norge , no problems , then a new 09 Griso that ticked along just fine . Traded it in on a new 012 Stelvio that left me on the side of the road 3 times , once on Hwy I-5 60 miles from Seattle and was flat bedded to Dave Richardson’s shop in Seattle . 2 more failures later with lots of dealer time in between but the problem was never solved . Sold it with full disclosure and just saw it back on the market last month . The new Stelvio let down really burned my confidence in Guzzi and I held on to that resentment for a longtime . Guess it was just my turn for a lemon . Best luck so far is with my 04 V11 Ballabio and a wonderful 73 Eldo restored by George Dockray a few years back . Great bikes with no let downs so far . I thought I’d give a Yam FJR a chance last year but it just put me to sleep . Sold it shortly after. I probably should be in therapy but thank goodness for like minded owners on this site who understand this damn obsession  . We are not alone !

[80CX100]

     I feel your frustration in not being able to ride.

     I'm not a mechanic or electrician either, but realistically, for myself if I expect my bikes to run well, I know I'll have to figure it out and do the work myself. The so called "shaved apes" have taken over most of the service shops in my area, the prospect of running bikes back and forth to have shoddy work done at premium prices is more frustration than I can bear.

     It sounds like you have at least one good mechanic in your area, I'd line him up in the off season to get rid of the gremlins; having 5 different mechanics work on something, sounds like a nightmare.

      That special spirit that you mention about guzzis, it's alive in the community as well,,, I think they've already solved your clutch issue as outlined above, hopefully the plates aren't knackered and it ends up being an easy fix, and you can get back out for some wind therapy.

     Re your V65 if the carbs are clean & flowing fuel, your valves adjusted to speck, good battery, points, condensors, coils, spark plug & wires, starter interruptus relay, and good clean connections throughout and it still won't start,,, I'd do what KiwiRoy recommended to me, when I faced those same circumstances with my CX100,,, replace the 35 yr old ignition switch. wag fwiw ymmv

     Good luck with them and hope you get riding soon.

     Ps UJM's do nothing for me, but that new Z900rs ? that you're eyeballing is the sweetest of the ujm retro's imo   

     Kelly