V85TT Dyno by Cycle World

[Texas Turnip]

It is supposed to be in the high 60s here today so I am going to ride my "weak-assed" V85 and fret over the dyno readings.  I know it will just ruin my ride today.

Thanks for making my day.  No wonder there is so many low mileage Guzzis when the rider is more concerned about dyno reports than riding.

Tex

[Chuck in Indiana]

I propose a new standard for power/torque claims.

1. Will pull the skin off a custard.
2. Won't pull the skin off a custard.

The term in Indiana is, "pull granny off the pot."  That came from comparing tractors (Guzzi content) back in the day.
So.. will it or won't it?
I don't get all the arguments. It's built well, some say it absolutely has to have suspension upgrades, some think it's fine. Most that ride it think power output is "adequate." It is *not* selling like rat sandwitches for a change.
No, I'm not in the least interested in one.. it doesn't meet my needs.. but the ADV segment is hot right now, and smaller adventure bikes are hot.
Yay, Guzzi..

[Moparnut72]

Is the reason why Harley doesn't release HP figures is to prevent pissing matches like this one.  There was a big deal about 10 years ago, class action lawsuit I think, against lawnmower manufacturers who were advertising their mowers as having 5hp when in fact they didn't. I think Honda was the biggest offender.

I also seem to remember that the German government would take action against any German auto manufacturer who overstated HP for any of their cars.

On an an opposite view,  I collect and run antique and classic outboard motors. Back in the 50's Mercury severely underrated their engines. As an example their 10hp labeled model produced more like 16hp. In actual use they were much faster than 10hp Evinrudes. Mercury sold a lot of motors, a whole new line, due to this deceptive advertising but also due to advanced technology for the day. The main reason for more HP from the same cubic inches as the competition.
kk

[Kev m]

This thread brings up an interesting observation on perceptions.

* I'm not sure why people are perceiving this as a pissing match. A debate can be passionate without it being a Johnson measuring tool. I don't see the latter in this thread and wonder why/how others do. Perception.

* Talking about these things has no reflection on how much riding one does. And how much much riding one does has no reflection on one's worth (in these debates or in any other way). I kinda struggle to see why one would think or suggest otherwise. Perception.

The comments about taking it personally puzzle me the most. Taking WHAT personally? The hp? The marketing? The debate? It's possible to "care" about something without "taking it personally" which suggests offense. Yet some here seem to be perceiving offense. Projection or Perception?

[oldbike54]

 The dyno numbers won't matter if the factory forgot to get grease where it belongs , or the engine goes boom . That was kinda the point all along , Guzzi is touting the all "new" engine , what matters is if quality control has improved .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

The dyno numbers won't matter if the factory forgot to get grease where it belongs , or the engine goes boom . That was kinda the point all along , Guzzi is touting the all "new" engine , what matters is if quality control has improved .

 Dusty

Agreed.

But as usual color me optimistic.

[mondtster]

Is the reason why Harley doesn't release HP figures is to prevent pissing matches like this one.  There was a big deal about 10 years ago, class action lawsuit I think, against lawnmower manufacturers who were advertising their mowers as having 5hp when in fact they didn't. I think Honda was the biggest offender.

I wouldn’t be completely surprised if HD doesn’t release numbers to avoid embarrassing themself.   

I work for an engine OEM. There are rules they must follow regarding actual horsepower vs. published horsepower although I don’t remember what those rules are. It’s a few percent if I remember right. A common game for manufacturers to play is to start on the low end of the allowable advertised power range so they can advertise power increases in subsequent years with no actual engine or calibration changes. I wouldn’t be surprised if Guzzi went the other way with this engine/bike because the competition all makes more power. But that doesn’t leave them any room to grow either, which may put them farther behind in the long run. Or maybe they just don’t care...

I’m satisfied  with the V85 power output. It runs good and does everything I want it to do. All bikes could use more power though so if a big bore kit or some engine mod that will significantly increase the power comes along I’ll definitely consider it.

With regard to your outboard story, the same problem exists in light airplane engines. In comparable engines one manufacturer’s engine makes significantly more power than the other. I suspect the manufacturer that is light on power was being generous with their claimed ratings in order to compete while the other manufacturer was being conservative.

As far as dynos go, the typical DJ simply has a roller of a known mass and the unit figures power by monitoring the time to accelerate the mass. Accurate or not they do seem to produce consistent numbers, which can be seen in this thread by observing that multiple operators are getting similar results. If one wants to measure actual power output you’re going need different equipment. Obtaining a horsepower figure isn’t something I really care about in the test lab anyway.

[pebra]

Point of order.

My argument is NOT that everyone lies therefore it's ok.

My argument is everyone understands crank does not equal rear wheel AND comparative claims of crank vs proven rear wheel prove Guzzi was not lying.

Yes, that's what I learned from this thread.
And I'd say it's confirmed by the German dyno figures fossil quoted:

 

New data points:

The German magazine MOTORRAD made a test (after the bike competed favourably in the annually "Alpen Masters" with very diverse bikes). The Dyno used: Dynojet 250. Crank hp computed acc. European standard 95/1/EG , plusminus 5%. The outcome: 56,3 kW (77 hp) @ 7800/min, torque 73 Nm @ 6700/min. The torque curve looks identical to those published above, the power curve almost identical. Another data point: average braking decelaration 10 m/s².
They regarded the bike quite favourably. The main author of the test itself wants to buy a new bike. He is undecided whether to choose the Guzzi or the quite different but fantastic Yamaha Tenere 700. Go figure!

[Huzo]

Huzo, I'm still in the dark.  What was proven out by Pete?   I apologize if I'm daft, but I don't know what you're talking about.

Pete was sceptical to say the least regarding the V85’s ability to produce the power figure claimed.
I think he predicted that the rear wheel would get around 62 or something and he was miles out, he missed by about 2 hp...
Also most of his guts aching was not whether the new bike made the power or not, it was that some poor schmuck spends his hard earned on a bike that he expects to run with his mate’s Duke or Tiger etc.. and then finds he’s been lied to
And no..
You’re not daft 

[Darren Williams]

Thinking about the percentage loss from crank through the drive train to rear wheel... How much would the values change when the mechanism is worn in verses new? We've all heard how it take several thousand miles for a Guzzi to loosen up, and I think I have "felt" it in the few new Guzzis I have bought. May be just confirmation bias, but have not seem to have noticed it on other brands.

[Kev m]

Pete was sceptical to say the least regarding the V85’s ability to produce the power figure claimed.
I think he predicted that the rear wheel would get around 62 or something and he was miles out, he missed by about 2 hp...
Also most of his guts aching was not whether the new bike made the power or not, it was that some poor schmuck spends his hard earned on a bike that he expects to run with his mate’s Duke or Tiger etc.. and then finds he’s been lied to
And no..
You’re not daft 

*It dynos at  66-67, meaning he missed by 4-6 hp.

*Again, it dynos like a Ducati Scrambler or 797 Monster where Ducati claims they make 79 hp. People seeing that and seeing Guzzi won't be disappointed in the similar rwhp or real world performance.

[bad Chad]

For god sakes will it ever end?  The whole USSR used a pencil and NASA spent millions coming up with a pen is bull crap, it never happened!!

[oldbike54]

 Calm down Chad , it'll be alright 

 Dusty

[Kev m]

For god sakes will it ever end?  The whole USSR used a pencil and NASA spent millions coming up with a pen is bull crap, it never happened!!

You sound like you're taking it personally. 

[80CX100]

For god sakes will it ever end?  The whole USSR used a pencil and NASA spent millions coming up with a pen is bull crap, it never happened!!

     You may be right, it might have been Crayolas, but I can't verify the details; the original news story was written in vanishing ink 

 

[bad Chad]

I’m fine.  Or maybe I’m not,  it’s just frustrating how much misinformation flows around the internet like turds circling the toilet.

[gentlemanjim]

Those are nice numbers and should be attainable on the V7 as well.

[kingoffleece]

I'd wager that if the Guzi rider can't "keep up with his mates xxxxx........" in anything other than a drag race (and who would by an 850 for THAT) then the issue lies with the pilot, not the bike.

[Kev m]

Those are nice numbers and should be attainable on the V7 as well.

?!?

 

?!?

Way too many differences....

[Darren Williams]

I’m fine.  Or maybe I’m not,  it’s just frustrating how much misinformation flows around the internet like turds circling the toilet.

Chad, myself being of the "engineering" mindset, it's hard for me too. But I'm coming to grips with the "perception is reality, and facts don't matter" world we now live in.

Remember when a group of guys could set around with some beer and BS back and forth. Then came then smart phone and everything was fact checked on the spot. That really kind of sucked for our social interaction times. Now it has gone the other way where nothing is solid fact, which I am not sure how I feel about it.

[wirespokes]

You guys are alright!