Stuck clutch - expert help needed

[wicks]

Hi all - well I've got the old Le Mans running and she sounds great. Cheers to that. BUT:

Clutch is stuck stuck stuck. I've tried dousing with brake cleaner, then repeated cranking of the rear wheel with clutch lever strapped (yes it's pulling all the way), hitting the starter with brakes on, etc. She will pull a constant burn out with the clutch in in 1st gear at idle. Hah.

I imagine people who've brought old bikes back to life might have a trick or a process here. Do I fill the bell with alchohol to a level below the seals, soak for a day, turn engine 60 degrees, soak that section, etc., Ideas? Experience?

I'm reading old farm forums about tractors with stuck clutches. Reading about Coca Cola, WD40, to break free then brake cleaner to clear out the goo, but this idea scares me...could trash the friction material. I'm also thinking about using the organic rust remover that cleared my gas tank up miraculously.

Maybe a special tool can be made to get in here and [carefully pry in a progressive manner in increments while turning flywheel 25% each light pry] pry:

[jwinwi]

Start here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102794.0
Also try using the 'Search' box in the upper right hand corner...

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Just the "usual abuse" to try and get it loose. Start engine, roll the bike down a slope, engage a gear (1st?), pull in the clutch and hammer the throttle on and off and hope it comes loose. Might be better off crabbing the frame to pull the transmission to have a look.

[wicks]

Yes have read that thread and all else I could search for...I'm over on actual farm tractor threads... the bike hasn't run since 1982 so specifically looking for ideas for a clutch that hasn't been released in that long...

[jwinwi]

Yes have read that thread and all else I could search for...I'm over on actual farm tractor threads... the bike hasn't run since 1982 so specifically looking for ideas for a clutch that hasn't been released in that long...

You could try sticking a tool in the bellhousing hole. I think the factory tool is part number 1234 5678.

[cliffrod]

If the normal abuse suggested hasn't already worked, I would crab the frame, pull it apart and make sure the clutch is released without incurring more damage (like bellhousing wreckage from prying...) & to make sure that a freed original clutch is still serviceable.    Being frozen like this combined with the ?? Process of freeing it may not make for happy parts at highway speed.  While its apart, upgrade from the square spline to the v spline input hub & clutch parts.  You won't regret it. jmho

I've freed many different things like this and other than being careful not to break things, there isn't one magic method that always works.  It may be a drag to be this close to going for a ride and have to tear it all down, but the alternative could be much worse.  Patience isn't how long you've waited.  It's how much longer you can wait...

[wicks]

So cool. Just ordered. Let you know if it works to carefully separate the rust from this thread.

You could try sticking a tool in the bellhousing hole. I think the factory tool is part number 1234 5678.

[Tom H]

Just a quick simple check. Is the clutch lever on the back of the trans hitting the trans when you pull the handlebar lever?

Tom

[wicks]

Clutch lever moves to almost contacting rear of trans. Moves plenty, and freely.

[pressureangle]

This happened after install and light use of a brand new clutch in my '85 LM1000.
Being an old dirt-tracker, I started it in neutral, trotted beside it and jumped on and popped it in 1st gear. I had to ride around with the clutch lever pulled, jerking the throttle on and off a bit, for probably nearly a whole minute before it came loose. But it did come loose, and I didn't have to abuse it; the weight of the bike and traction is enormously more powerful than you can be with the engine off, and still not put nearly as much abuse on it as simple spirited riding.

[wirespokes]

I went through this last year with an 85 LM4 that hadn't run since 1991. I abused it a little riding up the drive and back a few times with no luck. Finally tore it apart to find the clutch badly rusted to the flywheel. I managed to clean everything up fairly well and only needed to replace a few parts. Been fine ever since.

If you've never crabbed a guzzi - now's a good time to learn. It's not really difficult, but first time might take the better part of a day.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yeah, it's rust and there *may* be a lot of it. If it were me, I'd have a look since it is such a museum piece. What's a few more hours labor?

[wicks]

Thanks gents very much. What I'm thinking with the input is

A) try getting her going in 1st and running a bit hard on the throttle for a while to see if it comes loose, and if not
B) soaking clutch in the organic rust remover for 24 hours, and if no love
C) go for (yes it would be my first time) the crab and replace all seals for good measure while in there. Lots of butter. ;)

I just bought a camera scope that attaches to iphone, has a light on it. So I may be able to get a pretty good look in there. Will report.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I just bought a camera scope that attaches to iphone, has a light on it. So I may be able to get a pretty good look in there. Will report.

You won't be able to see much of anything. The clutch is totally enclosed within the flywheel. You might see the back of the engine and front of the transmission, but that's about it.

[Tom H]

If you want to try a soaking. I think it was mineral spirits. In Ca., it seems had to get, just like MEK. Do a search on how to do it, but you plug the drain hole at the bottom of the trans at the bell housing and pour it in. Again search for better directions.

Tom

[John A]

Mineral spirits is what I would use. Pull off the starter and make a blanking cover. Make a rectangle plug for the bottom hole out of a bit of wood and fill ‘er up. I use a siphon sprayer run off an air compressor.  Mineral spirits won’t hurt the seals but will go into the starter if you leave it on, not a big deal . If you do leave it on you can start the engine to work the clutch but after I would pull the starter and lube the bendix with heavy duty spray silicone.  It’s worth a try before you yard it apart.

[pete roper]

In all honesty I'd forget all the rafting about, chicken sacrificing, waving of voodoo fetishes etc. it's not run for pretty much forever and is bound to be full of mung and mank. Pulling the gearbox is really not a big deal on a Tonti. You'll pronably waste more of your life farting about trying to break it loose, (Which will still leave all the horrid mank in the clutch.) than you will if you just hook in and do the job properly!

Pete

[John A]

True, I don’t think spirits would have helped much anyway but it’s fun to try stuff on other folks stuff
And it won’t hurt anything

[Cdn850T5NT]

Yeah, it's rust and there *may* be a lot of it. If it were me, I'd have a look since it is such a museum piece. What's a few more hours labor?

Is "crabbing" a Guzzi disconnecting the lower frame rails and lifting the frame over top of the (remaining) engine and transmission?

[wirespokes]

Yes, that's essentially it. Or the engine and transmission can drop down for access.

[guzzista]

Tonti  Guzzi in crabbing position to replace the clutch

[Chuck in Indiana]

Instead of the 2X4 in back that I'd probably  knock loose and things would come crashing down.. I put it between the top frame rails and cylinder heads.
Really, it's a walk in the park. After you do it, you wonder what you were worrying about.

[blackcat]

Maybe it’s me but having worked on a crabbed bike, I prefer to just pull the frame apart. With the factory engine stand,etc., it’s pretty easy and I don’t have to worry about all this stuff floating in the air. I only have early Tonti’s so the wires are pretty minimal, maybe it’s worth the crab on newer bikes with lots of wires.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

"Walk in the park" - not a pleasant one for sure. I'd much rather do the same job on a Loop, so much easier.

[wirespokes]

Why is it easier on a loop?

[Idontwantapickle]

Here is a LeMans properly crabbed. Some prefer it because it can be done singlehanded and eliminates most of the difficult process of lining up the frame to the engine cradle upon reassembly. I've done it both ways. For an in and out clutch or transmission repair crabbing is the way to do it.

Hunter

[Idontwantapickle]

Why is it easier on a loop?

The transmission comes out of a Loop without removing the engine. Just the swingarm and some other items and it's out in an hour or so. The book time on the transmission R&R for a tonti is 8 hours! 

Hunter

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Why is it easier on a loop?

Because you just tilt the engine forward (after removing the necessary bits) and pluck the transmission off of it. Meanwhile the rest of the bike is supported on the centerstand - no hanging it from rafters or supporting it with sawhorses, etc.

[SIR REAL ED]

Great thread for us Moto Guzzi newbies to read.

What is this strange language the MG gods speaketh?  Tonti?  Loop?  Crabbing?

I think I am beginning to under stand why tinkerers are drawn to Moto Guzzi like buzzards to roadkill......

I love it! 

[wirespokes]

Great thread for us Moto Guzzi newbies to read.

What is this strange language the MG gods speaketh?  Tonti?  Loop?  Crabbing?

I think I am beginning to under stand why tinkerers are drawn to Moto Guzzi like buzzards to roadkill......

LOL 
You'll fit right in!

Now you know what crabbing is. Right? No questions there.

Loop - short for Loop frame. The first Guzzis with the transverse V engine - 1967-74. Their frames are like old Triumphs and BMWs that loop around the engine.

Tonti - the engineer who designed the next generation frame in use from 71 till sometime after 2000.