Tubeless Conversion-- A Different Approach

[Kiwi_Roy]

I came upon this video from Bwstrest Products
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzoqi_4X7o

Update
Based on this video my current thinking is
3M 4200 Marine sealant in the nipple holes
backed up with 3M 4411 sealant tape over the top to make it tidy and protect the 4200
I'm still open to other ideas.

[KiwiKev]

In my experience, they're quite useless. Might work for a slow leak, but nothing more.

A few years ago I was off-road riding on my XT500 with several other XT500 guys. At one point the guy in front of me started swerving side-to-side and then went off into a shallow ditch. Rear tire flat. The leader of our group proudly whipped out his can of "fix-a-flat" proclaiming that it would do the job according to what he'd read on ADV Rider. It failed miserably. 

Lots of hand wringing ensued, especially since we were in an area with no cellphone signal. None of them had a "plan B". No worries - in my backpack I had patches, glue, tire irons, CO2 inflator - everything to do the job, even a spare tube. Within 20 minutes the tube was patched, wheel back in place and inflated.

In my own bikes with tubes (which is 100% of them), I use "Ride On" which is a sealer/balancer. Before that I used PJ1 Balance Plus which was the same type of product. Both work well - I've had punctures without ever even knowing it. Orange (or green for PJ1) spot on the tube where the puncture was sealed. The only time it didn't work was when I somehow picked up three nails all together (from a strip for a nail gun I assume). That made a rather large hole in my tire and an even larger one in the tube. PJ1 tried it's best, but failed.

Last Sunday I was checking over the Convert before going out for a ride, like I do before every ride. Front tire: 32 psi, rear tire: zero.  Spun the tire around a couple of times before I finally spotted a screw down in the groove of the tread. The head of it was quite worn, so it was in there a while. Never noticed any weird handling from low pressure when I rode it last. Super slow leak - I pumped it up so I could move the bike and it took a several days to drop back to 20 psi. Ride On doing it's thing I guess.

Maybe useless in some cases but surely worth a try to get you out of a jam ??

Some brands obviously work better than others, my leak was fixed and tyre stayed inflated for almost a year.

[Huzo]

Maybe useless in some cases but surely worth a try to get you out of a jam ??

Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics...

[Darren Williams]

Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics...

I've often wondered the same thing. the beads and goo have their detractors and disciples. I personally haven't done a deep dive into the physics, but might do that when I have more free time.

[Darren Williams]

Regarding the "fix a flat" can. Several years ago I was riding with the Sooner Adventure Riders where we were on back roads and trails. A KLR guy had his tires aired down, as normal, and when jumping a railroad track pinched his rear tube. Went down immediately. Aired it up with the can of "fix a flat" and road the bike about 50 more miles and it stayed up the whole way. No knowledge of what happened after that.

[wirespokes]

Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics...

There was quite a discussion on Adventure Rider and this is the explanation that finally made sense to me. Supposedly MCN did a test and found them to be bogus. However, it was explained what MCN did wrong in their tests - the mistake was using a tire balancing machine for the test. When a tire is out of balance, the heavy section pulls the whole wheel off axis. The beads (or balancing liquid) goes to that point since it's the farthest from center. Since MCN used a balancing machine, the axle was held solidly in place, unlike when the wheel is in use on a vehicle.

[s1120]

In my experience, they're quite useless. Might work for a slow leak, but nothing more.

A few years ago I was off-road riding on my XT500 with several other XT500 guys. At one point the guy in front of me started swerving side-to-side and then went off into a shallow ditch. Rear tire flat. The leader of our group proudly whipped out his can of "fix-a-flat" proclaiming that it would do the job according to what he'd read on ADV Rider. It failed miserably. 

Lots of hand wringing ensued, especially since we were in an area with no cellphone signal. None of them had a "plan B". No worries - in my backpack I had patches, glue, tire irons, CO2 inflator - everything to do the job, even a spare tube. Within 20 minutes the tube was patched, wheel back in place and inflated.

In my own bikes with tubes (which is 100% of them), I use "Ride On" which is a sealer/balancer. Before that I used PJ1 Balance Plus which was the same type of product. Both work well - I've had punctures without ever even knowing it. Orange (or green for PJ1) spot on the tube where the puncture was sealed. The only time it didn't work was when I somehow picked up three nails all together (from a strip for a nail gun I assume). That made a rather large hole in my tire and an even larger one in the tube. PJ1 tried it's best, but failed.

Last Sunday I was checking over the Convert before going out for a ride, like I do before every ride. Front tire: 32 psi, rear tire: zero.  Spun the tire around a couple of times before I finally spotted a screw down in the groove of the tread. The head of it was quite worn, so it was in there a while. Never noticed any weird handling from low pressure when I rode it last. Super slow leak - I pumped it up so I could move the bike and it took a several days to drop back to 20 psi. Ride On doing it's thing I guess.

Interesting..  Ill have to read more into that. ...  So any downsides at all??  In your opinion does the balance help, or hurt? Do you do a balance after tire mounting?  Im on the fence with all this. Im putting tires on my California stone this winter, and want to do something. I dont have a center stand on the bike, and I am planning a few long rides, so I really dont want to be stuck somewhere.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Interesting..  Ill have to read more into that. ...  So any downsides at all??  In your opinion does the balance help, or hurt? Do you do a balance after tire mounting?  Im on the fence with all this. Im putting tires on my California stone this winter, and want to do something. I dont have a center stand on the bike, and I am planning a few long rides, so I really dont want to be stuck somewhere.

First off let me say I would not use it in tubeless tires, only in those with a tube. It would be real mess trying to clean it out of tubeless tire and rim.

I don't use "Ride On" for the balance feature, really only for the sealing of punctures. I balance with lead weights first them add the Ride On afterwards. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. However, in the past, when I was using the (now unavailable) PJ1 Balance Plus I wouldn't put any weights on to balance, just the PJ1. For about the first mile of each ride, the front end would bounce, noticeably out of balance. Slowly the PJ1 would take effect and the bounce would go away for the rest of the day. 

[KiwiKev]

Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics...

It's not about balancing the wheel Huzo, it's about fixing the xxxxxing puncture 😋.

Once you squirt the stuff in you rotate the wheel to distribute it evenly to find and fix the leak.
You're not concerned with balancing the wheel, just getting home or to a tyre shop.

I was slack and left mine in that state until I sold the old girl. My gearbox failed and it stayed inflated
for the brief (year or so) it took me to fix the crappy bearing failure so I figured it was ok to leave it as was.

[s1120]

First off let me say I would not use it in tubeless tires, only in those with a tube. It would be real mess trying to clean it out of tubeless tire and rim.

I don't use "Ride On" for the balance feature, really only for the sealing of punctures. I balance with lead weights first them add the Ride On afterwards. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. However, in the past, when I was using the (now unavailable) PJ1 Balance Plus I wouldn't put any weights on to balance, just the PJ1. For about the first mile of each ride, the front end would bounce, noticeably out of balance. Slowly the PJ1 would take effect and the bounce would go away for the rest of the day.

I spent many years training to be a auto tech, and the last 25 working at a dealer, and have seen that WAYYYYYY too many times!!  The stuff is a mess!!!!   I was thinking if I kept the tubes as a back up plan to help stop leaks..   

[greer]

Hold the phone folks, this method may not be as peachy as I thought---my rear tire held pressure dead even for a month, went to check it after a few days away and it was down 10lbs.  Using soapy water dabbed with a Q-tip I have found 3 slow leaks, one from a well and two from top of the nipple.  I am not at all sure what to make of this and pondering what to do next, but wanted to post an update with the latest. Front pressure is still holding steady. Stay tuned.

Sarah 

[s1120]

Seemed too good to be true..  Just seemed too easy. 


Any of you that have used the 3M sealing tape stuff... Can this stuff be cut in half lengthwise easy enough??  Im asking because I plan to use it on my bike, and the front wheel drop center is 1", and the rear 2"...  Tape sold in rolls of 1 or 2"...  I dont really need two rolls, so wondering if its easy to cut the 2" down to 1?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Seemed too good to be true..  Just seemed too easy. 


Any of you that have used the 3M sealing tape stuff... Can this stuff be cut in half lengthwise easy enough??  Im asking because I plan to use it on my bike, and the front wheel drop center is 1", and the rear 2"...  Tape sold in rolls of 1 or 2"...  I dont really need two rolls, so wondering if its easy to cut the 2" down to 1?

I tried everywhere to get the 3M sealant and 3M tape I wanted, the tape only seems to be available in 3 inch which would bee too hard to handle.
My current thinking is Sikaflex 291i Marine Adhesive Sealant backed up with Crystal Clear Gorilla tape.
I still haven't got around to doing the wheels, just assembling all the supplies I need.
I'm in no rush.

[pyoungbl]

Sarah, I converted my V7 wheels to tubeless about 3 months ago.  After reading your post I decided to check the tire pressure on each.  They are reading 29 and 30 so I think I have lost about 5 psi.  That seems pretty normal for motorcycle tires that have been sitting for 3 months.
      I do not know how you sealed your spokes but it's really important to get the rim clean and free of any oil or grease.  I used hot soapy water, scrub pads and followed up with Acetone.  Still, with the first attempt I had an air leak at a spoke nipple and had to do that one again to get a better seal.  I used 3M 5200 so it took a couple days of dabbing the 5200 on spokes and waiting for it to set enough to rotate the wheel and do the next batch.  Otherwise the 5200 would sag away from the spoke.  I imagine you can fix the two spoke leaks by scraping out the old sealant, cleaning the nipple, and re-coating.
     As for the tape, Gorilla tape probably won't do a good enough job of protecting the seals from damage when changing tires.   The 3M tape is damn tough but you still need to be careful with the tire irons.  I think you can get the tape in 1" width as well as the 2" stuff.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hold the phone folks, this method may not be as peachy as I thought---my rear tire held pressure dead even for a month, went to check it after a few days away and it was down 10lbs.  Using soapy water dabbed with a Q-tip I have found 3 slow leaks, one from a well and two from top of the nipple.  I am not at all sure what to make of this and pondering what to do next, but wanted to post an update with the latest. Front pressure is still holding steady. Stay tuned.

Sarah

When I first did my 72 Eldorado I had similar issues, the tires would stay up for a couple of days then go down, usually the leak would be through the nipple thread to bubble out where the spoke threaded in.
One thing about it, the leak was never sudden you could always blow up the tire and make it home, not like a badly punctured tube.
The first silicone I used would over several days flow into the nipple leaving a shape like a miniature volcano, The GE General Purpose 100 % Silicone was much better but I want to get away from silicone altogether.
Its been suggested that the material used to fasten car windscreens is a better material to use on aluminium.
I use one of those long plastic planter boxes they sell at any plant shop, work it under the wheel then fill with water to above the nipples.

[SIR REAL ED]

Hold the phone folks, this method may not be as peachy as I thought---my rear tire held pressure dead even for a month, went to check it after a few days away and it was down 10lbs.  Using soapy water dabbed with a Q-tip I have found 3 slow leaks, one from a well and two from top of the nipple.  I am not at all sure what to make of this and pondering what to do next, but wanted to post an update with the latest. Front pressure is still holding steady. Stay tuned.

Sarah

Good on you Sarah for giving this a shot.  It seems some have made this work, but the concept of one drop sealing each spoke seems a bit optimistic to me.  Also, the product is being used as a sealant, which is not what it was designed to be.  That said, one drop per spoke with a bit of waiting between applications, and multiple application will probably get the job done.

When I go down this road, I'll probably use 3M silicone and sealing tape.  Just like painting, preparation and patience is the key.

[SIR REAL ED]

     As for the tape, Gorilla tape probably won't do a good enough job of protecting the seals from damage when changing tires.   The 3M tape is damn tough but you still need to be careful with the tire irons.

That is an excellent point.  I had a local bike shop remove a tire from a cast wheel so a friend could do some machining on it.  The scar they left down the center of the "tube side" of the rim, 360 degrees around the wheel was impressive.

After I convert some spoked wheels to tubeless, the days of having the local shop change tires on their tire machine are gone forever.

[s1120]

I tried everywhere to get the 3M sealant and 3M tape I wanted, the tape only seems to be available in 3 inch which would bee too hard to handle.
My current thinking is Sikaflex 291i Marine Adhesive Sealant backed up with Crystal Clear Gorilla tape.
I still haven't got around to doing the wheels, just assembling all the supplies I need.
I'm in no rush.

Not sure if its world wide, but Amazon sells the tape in diferent sizes. My thoughts on cutting it is becouse of a 1"x5 yard roll is pretty much the same cost as a 2"x5 yard roll..  Being the front rim has a 1" center, the rear a 2" center it would work great to just cut the 2" roll insted of buying two..

[jpv7]

I came upon this video from Bwstrest Products
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzoqi_4X7o

Update
Based on this video my current thinking is
3M 4200 Marine sealant in the nipple holes
backed up with 3M 4411 sealant tape over the top to make it tidy and protect the 4200
I'm still open to other ideas.

I will go this route.  The 4200 is available at Canadian Tire, and 1-1/2" 4411 is on Amazon.ca

[John Croucher]

Sarah, I converted my V7 wheels to tubeless about 3 months ago.  After reading your post I decided to check the tire pressure on each.  They are reading 29 and 30 so I think I have lost about 5 psi.  That seems pretty normal for motorcycle tires that have been sitting for 3 months.
      I do not know how you sealed your spokes but it's really important to get the rim clean and free of any oil or grease.  I used hot soapy water, scrub pads and followed up with Acetone.  Still, with the first attempt I had an air leak at a spoke nipple and had to do that one again to get a better seal.  I used 3M 5200 so it took a couple days of dabbing the 5200 on spokes and waiting for it to set enough to rotate the wheel and do the next batch.  Otherwise the 5200 would sag away from the spoke.  I imagine you can fix the two spoke leaks by scraping out the old sealant, cleaning the nipple, and re-coating.
     As for the tape, Gorilla tape probably won't do a good enough job of protecting the seals from damage when changing tires.   The 3M tape is damn tough but you still need to be careful with the tire irons.  I think you can get the tape in 1" width as well as the 2" stuff.

Forget the tape/any tape.  It will eventually come off from centrifugal force and or contaminates.  It does not seal around the head of the nipples. The ends do not seal.  The valve stem does not seal.  It is sticky, hard to work with, does not like compound surfaces, will not lay down flat in rim well. 

Clean with soap and water, rinse, blow oil/assembly lube out of nipples, rinse and repeat a couple of times.  Then wipe down with denatured alcohol or acetone. 

Dab a little of the 3m 5200 on each nipple with the rim slid over the axle held in a vise so you can rotate easily.  Use acetone to smooth out and to clean up.  Let the first coat dry for 24 hours.   

Second coat.  I  used masking tape in the rim well to establish a good transition line.  I applied a thin second coat.  Smoothing out with my finger dipped in acetone. (This stuff is toxic, use at your own risk).  Removed the masking tape and cleaned up excess with paper towel and acetone as I spun the rim on the axle.  Let this sit for 24 hours.

Third coat.  No masking tape.  Added another thin layer and cleaned up with acetone. 

Cleaned up valve stem hole and installed a NAPA motorcycle tubeless valve stem.


I would share pictures of the process, but my cell phone died and I lost all the images.  Not going to take the wheel and tire off to share pictures of the finished rim.   I did clean up the rim sealing surface of any imperfections and cleaned the tire sealing bead of all mold marks by buffing with a green scotch brite pad before installing the tire on the rim.  The tires hold pressure great. They show know signs of leaking after 1 year. 
   
I converted from the stock steel wheels to Excell Aluminum.  Total weight loss or rotating mass was more than 10 pounds per wheel. 

[SIR REAL ED]

   
I converted from the stock steel wheels to Excell Aluminum.  Total weight loss or rotating mass was more than 10 pounds per wheel.

Normally, I would think this is an exaggeration, but after picking up the front wheel from my Nevada 750, it blew me away how heavy that pig was.  Oink Oink, too many donuts!

I honestly can't ever remember picking up a motorcycle wheel that was that heavy.  Probably did, but in my younger days. 

Maybe the original owner was a farmer and he filled the tube with calcium chloride to get more traction in the winter......  would explain the Nevada reluctance to wheelie under power......

Plus when you add in the additional weight lost due to no tube.....

[greer]

Note to self: Remember that when loosening spoke nipples to clean the threads of Loctite, it's really easy to go one turn too far, meaning the nipple will thread completely off the spoke and drop right down into the tire.  $#!! and double $#!!. 

Sarah

[s1120]

Normally, I would think this is an exaggeration, but after picking up the front wheel from my Nevada 750, it blew me away how heavy that pig was.  Oink Oink, too many donuts!

I honestly can't ever remember picking up a motorcycle wheel that was that heavy.  Probably did, but in my younger days. 

Maybe the original owner was a farmer and he filled the tube with calcium chloride to get more traction in the winter......  would explain the Nevada reluctance to wheelie under power......

Plus when you add in the additional weight lost due to no tube.....

I thought the same when I picked up the front wheel from my 02 stone..  OMG I couldnt believe how heavy it was!!!!  Granted Im 20 years older then the last time I changed tires on a bike, but I sure dont remember the last one being that heavy!!! 

[SIR REAL ED]

Note to self: Remember that when loosening spoke nipples to clean the threads of Loctite, it's really easy to go one turn too far, meaning the nipple will thread completely off the spoke and drop right down into the tire.  $#!! and double $#!!. 

Sarah

Personally, it is hard for me to respect a woman who does not swear.  Prior to meeting me, my wife never used to swear.  She does now! 

[SIR REAL ED]

I thought the same when I picked up the front wheel from my 02 stone..  OMG I couldnt believe how heavy it was!!!!  Granted Im 20 years older then the last time I changed tires on a bike, but I sure dont remember the last one being that heavy!!!

I recently took a Suzuki SV 650 front wheel modified to fit my DR 650 into the local dealer to get a tire mounted.  Even that cast aluminum wheel and tire combo was much lighter than my spoked Nevada front wheel.

Makes one wonder how much weight could be saved by substituting a few parts.

[greer]

I used one of those pen-sized telescoping magnets to fish the nipple out, reassembled the spoke and re-treated with the Loctite.  Re-tested with my Q-tip and soapy water and had two different spokes leaking.  This is on the rear wheel, the front is still holding steady.  So I'll leave the front alone for now and keep a close eye.  I now have the rear wheel off the bike and the tire off the rim while I study what to do next.

First of all let me ask: Are alloy rims available for these wheels?  These things are steel and absolutely heavy as hell.  This rear rim also has a good amount of rust on the inside, much of it right around the spoke nipples, requiring a whole bunch of clean up before I can even think about going the silicone or tape route.  I know nothing about wheel building, so any input is much appreciated.  Alloy rims, please?

Sarah

[s1120]

I used one of those pen-sized telescoping magnets to fish the nipple out, reassembled the spoke and re-treated with the Loctite.  Re-tested with my Q-tip and soapy water and had two different spokes leaking.  This is on the rear wheel, the front is still holding steady.  So I'll leave the front alone for now and keep a close eye.  I now have the rear wheel off the bike and the tire off the rim while I study what to do next.

First of all let me ask: Are alloy rims available for these wheels?  These things are steel and absolutely heavy as hell.  This rear rim also has a good amount of rust on the inside, much of it right around the spoke nipples, requiring a whole bunch of clean up before I can even think about going the silicone or tape route.  I know nothing about wheel building, so any input is much appreciated.  Alloy rims, please?

Sarah

I was kinda surprised how much rust was inside the rim on my 02 stone also. For a lot mile, clean bike I didnt expect any..  And ya... those wheels are porkers!!!!! 

[joe-dean]

at some point spoked wheels will need tightening which is going to brake the glued nipples seal.
when I was a honda mechanic in the seventies we would check spokes by tapping them loose ones would make a different
sound than tight ones... just saying something to consider

[John Croucher]

This is my rear wheel with 3M sealant applied on an Excel Aluminum rim and SS spokes and nipples.

Applied in three phases. 

[greer]

Do you mind telling me how you went about sourcing the rim, John?  I know beans about anything to do with wheel building.

Stamped on my Front Rim: DOT T 18X2.50 TLA 36
Rear Rim: DOT T 16X300 D 36

The rest of you please feel free to chime in too, and thanks again for riding along with me this far.

Sarah