Starter Relay Needed for V1000

[ozarquebus]

 I am trying to solve the intermittent relay clicking when starting the V1000 G5 even thouhg it always kicks in, eventually. It is slightly embarrassing at times when trying to impress chicks at the roadhouse.
 The relay mounted above the diode rectifier board clicks and sparks internally frequently while failing to engage the starter, so I decided to change it. Then I discovered it is unobtainable and need to figure out an alternate relay to use and how to connect it.
It is a Magneti Marelli TEL 12 B/2 12V and is a 4-pin unit. I am looking in the archives, but don't see anything , yet.

Here is a Toyota relay that looks like the same configuration. I suppose I will just get that.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The starter relay should be below the rectifier/diode board. You can use a generic "cube" relay available at most auto parts stores. Sold as a horn or fog light relay. Something like this:
https://www.autozone.com/electrical-and-lighting/relay-and-resistors/novita-40-amp-spst-accessory-replay/849394_0_0

[Kiwi_Roy]

A 5 pin relay will work also, i know some of the older Jeeps use one similar.
I assume it has a socket?
I would go with one of the cube relays Charlie suggested, it has a lug to mount it and it's more in keeping with an older Guzzi, you should be able to get one at any Auto Electricians.
Are you sure its the relay and not just a weak supply to it (Startus Interuptus)
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1978_V1000_SP.gif
Yes the relay has a weak supply through the ignition switch then the fuse panel, that's where I would look first.
Clean the switch contacts and lube with vaseline, clean the fuse and make sure the contacts are tight.
Don't forget to go over the connection at the solenoid, perhaps replace the wire from relay to solenoid with new parts and dip the wires and lugs in Vaseline so they stay bright.
The usual Startus Interuptus fix is to supply the relay with a wire direct from the battery through a blade type 20 Amp fuse bypassing the ignition switch.
The Starter Solenoid needs over 30 Amps but 45 or 50 will make it really happy.
This heavy current only lasts a fraction of a second but if it doesn't get it the solenoid will not budge.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

A 5 pin relay will work also, i know some of the older Jeeps use one similar.
I assume it has a socket?

No socket - individual wires.

[ozarquebus]

It IS below the diode board. I was hanging my head upside down when bent over the machine. 
Its got spade connectors on wires to it, so the exact configuration of the pins is not mandatory. Guess I can just look at the wiring diagram or use trial and error to get it wired right.

 I guess it could be startus interruptus. Battery is hot and connections are good. Starter looks new and shiny...

It looks like startus interuuptus refers to newer bikes than my G5

[ozarquebus]

Starting to look like the relay is ok and it is really some poor connections.

[Kiwi_Roy]

It looks like startus interuuptus refers to newer bikes than my G5

No, it can happen to much older bikes as well, it's just that riders of old Guzzis are smarter lol
Before you change anything set up your multimeter to measure the Voltage on the relay feed, if you try and start and it goes click you will see 8 Volts or less.
Once the Solenoid pulls in the current drops down to ~ 10 Amps so Voltage drop is no longer a problem.
If the high current pulse is so short you cannot measure the Voltage, it's possible to extend the pulse by simply disconnecting the battery cable at the large solenoid post but don't hold the relay on for more than a few seconds.

[ozarquebus]

Oh goody. I love these little troubleshooting excercises! I will throw another shovel of coal in the pot belly stove and get to work on this circuit.

[Shorty]

That starter is maybe a year old. That wire loom is old and crusty. Look under the headlight for some spliced wires. Don't ask how I know.  There are new harnesses available on This old tractor dot com. The jumper wires on the relay are shyte, also.

[pehayes]

Or you could just modify the circuit wiring so that the supply from battery to starter solenoid is more direct and connected by the relay.  The problem with the original wiring is that juice goes all over the place before getting back to the relay.  Lots of loss.  Plenty enough to make the relay 'click' but then not enough left over to actually drive the solenoid's electromagnet.  Rewiring will simply create two parallel circuits.  One driving the relay and the other driving the solenoid once the relay closes.  There are a variety of tips on this.  I wrote one for smallblock, but I think the logic and the terminal numbers are probably all the same.  Posted on guzzipower.com

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[chuck peterson]

Starter could be well beyond its intended life cycle, too. I found a auto starter/generator place to rebuild mine, but I believe MGCycle has rebuilt starters with a core exchange?

I just remembered a no start in front of a couple hundred Harley's...sidecover off, spin the fuses in their seats, she lives..of course I should have cleaned them, then a smear of vasilene to keep them in good order. DeOxit, or Vaseline...carbs or points...Dino vs synth

Check every step in the charging system. Clean and smear..no dielectric grease.

[ozarquebus]

pehayes idea is what I also came up with while I move about cleaning and renewing every connection I come across. and Since the starter is pretty new, it will get a devoted wire with its own inline fuse for the starter circuit.
 Cannot force myself to buy and install a complete harness, but would if going down to bare frame. If
 going down to bare frame, it would get a customized and simplified (in my mind) electrical system that doesn't share circuits as much between lighting charging and ignition with some spacecraft rated silver plated teflon wire laying around here and spade fuses. +Add a mini ammeter and voltmeter.
Am a little afraid of that rats' nest in the headlight shell.
 Thanks to all for allowing me to see things more clearly.

[ozarquebus]

 Well, like KIWI ROY suggested,  adding a parallel hot wire directly from the battery to the old relay solved the startus interruptus. I made a new jumper and cleaned up the other connections, too.
 Unfortunately it also energizes the lightning circuit even with the switch off.
 I thought welll that will be ok, I'll just make a secret hot wire switch, but it does not energize the ignition. I don't think the lights are supposed to be on the same circuit as the starter relay, so I guess that mysterious PO from Cincinatti must have borrowed a hot wire to get the lights working at some time.
 Maybe I should just leave the circuit in there and fuse it with a hidden switch. That way I can ride home at night when the regular circuit fails to the headlight like FUBAR.
Or maybe I will just get a new harness after the the timing chain job is done.
 At least now I won't sit there clicking in front of 200 Harley riders , like Chuck Petersen.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you only feed the start relay with the new wire it will not feed the lights, I think you must have left the original feed on the relay as well and you are back feeding F1, F2 & F3
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1978_V1000_SP.gif
If you look at the schematic your new feed should go onto the contact by itself. The brown wire from F3 thats now there needs to go just to the coil terminal 85

BTW I don't know why Guzzi show the relay backwards 30 should be your new fused feed with 87 going to the solenoid just like the other relay and the ignition switch, it makes no difference to how it works but it bugs me

[ozarquebus]

AH! Ok, that makes perfect sense, now.
That is what everyone meant when they stated the starter relay gets its power from the LIGHTING CIRCUIT. The light bulb over my head has finally come on.
 Even though I endured many hours of Navy Electronics schools, I still go fuzzy when I stare at the wiring diagrams. I didn't have this old tractor's nice clear schematics and was using the Clymer schematic out in the garage. It was a major achievement for me just to learn the Italian words 'Filo Marrone'.
Thanks.