Author Topic: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related  (Read 646 times)

Offline Old Jock

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More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« on: January 06, 2020, 10:51:51 AM »
I need Beetle or possibly Wayne or somebody of that ilk

I won't bore with the low oil pressure problem, but before I tear it down again to look into that I'm getting another strange problem.

The bike is together (more or less) and my plan was to fire it with the oil cooler looped out for a few minutes to see what pressure I'm getting prior to tearing it apart if necessary, BUT the fekin thing refuses to come to life.

Initially it just turned over, no life whatsoever. Looking at the plugs the spark seemed a bit hit and miss, so new plugs in, no difference

Cutting to the chase, I put Guzzi Diag onto it  annd when I turn the bike over with the plugs in it sparks for no more than a couple of seconds if that, then no spark.

Guzzi diag sees no RPM, so I checked out the speed pickup/phase sensor/Phonic Wheel (or whatever it's called), but have not removed it yet (total bugbear on a Hi Cam). I pinned it out back to the ECU from the plug

This is where it gets wierd, plugs out, bike turns over GuzziDiag sees around 250-300 RPM and I get sparks. Plugs in no RPM signal at all plugs fire for a second then stop (I've got 2 lots of plugs). It sounds a healthy cranking speed to me, I've seen a lot slower starters labouring and starting an engine. For completeness when checking the fuel pump is disabled as the bike is inside and I don't want the place stinking of fuel or running the fuel pump bearings. There is no feedback on the fuel pump that I know of, so the ECU remains blissfully ignorant.

Anybody know if there is threshold speed in the ECU or something that would hold it out?

In the meantime I'm going to rinse and repeat to make sure it's not a fluke but I've checked it 3 times now and the result so far is consistent
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 10:56:05 AM by Old Jock »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2020, 11:38:29 AM »
Don't know the 16M logic but that's weird. It may go off fuel pump prime time and need that info. Someone else here will know.
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2020, 11:50:41 AM »
This is where it gets wierd, plugs out, bike turns over GuzziDiag sees around 250-300 RPM and I get sparks. Plugs in no RPM signal at all plugs fire for a second then stop (I've got 2 lots of plugs). It sounds a healthy cranking speed to me, I've seen a lot slower starters labouring and starting an engine.

Sure sounds like the sensor needs cleaned or adjusted. The slightly higher RPM with the plugs pulled, might be helping it.

On an unrelated note, I was convinced that my Centauro was getting some spark plug electrical noise on the phase sensor input, contributing to the occasional idle misfire. I rerouted the wire a bit and I believe it helped.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2020, 12:04:49 PM »
Maybe too much gap on the phase sensor?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Old Jock

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2020, 01:00:27 PM »
Thanks for the replies

Prior the investigating the sensor I was getting zip, after that I pulled the phase sensor plug it was little oily so I cleaned it up and then checked with the plugs out. Bingo I got a measurement

Today I put the tank back on and nothing, the only thing that could have contributed was the plugs now being in. Pulled them and got an RPM measurement. Plugs back in and nothing, rinsed and repeated, same thing.

So after writing the original post I tried it again, plugs out, got a reading. Plugs back in and this time it was reading the RPM with the plugs in, the RPM registered was the same as with the plugs out 250-300 RPM

The other measurements in Guzzi diag stay up when the bike is on the starter so I'm thinking it's not dropping voltage so severely it's killing the ECU which I thought about at one point

I'll try it again tomorrow, I'm with Wayne and Chuck, I need to clean the sensor plug up more, pull the sensor (and clean it if required) then check the phase sensor gap. Thinking that once it gets going the signal is strong enough to work, the voltage willl remain the same though and just the frequency would change. However if the signal is weak and it misses a few pulses at a higher RPM the ECU might not catch it or ignore it. On the plus side I've purchased a cheap Osciliscope for the laptop off the Bay of Fleas to troubleshoot exactly this sort of problem. Don't need anything fancy, just something that will show me signal shape and voltage.

This was similar to the ECU relay problem I experienced on the 1100. The relay would not pull in and I checked everything and all was good. After I pullled all the wiring and plugs apart to check and put it back completely unchanged the relay worked and has been flawless ever since.

Thanks Sorry to have misled you a little, but the consistency of it working plugs out but not working plugs in had me scratching my head, especially as it occurred 3 times in a row.

Really appreciate having you guys around to help me with the engine from hell

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2020, 02:27:35 PM »
I'll try it again tomorrow, I'm with Wayne and Chuck, I need to clean the sensor plug up more, pull the sensor (and clean it if required) then check the phase sensor gap. Thinking that once it gets going the signal is strong enough to work, the voltage willl remain the same though and just the frequency would change. However if the signal is weak and it misses a few pulses at a higher RPM the ECU might not catch it or ignore it.

The sensor wheel has a tooth missing. That missing pulse, sets top dead center. If the sensor misses any pulses during the cycle, the ECU will completely stop the spark. That is, if it is not 100% sure it has the timing right, you will not get any spark. That is to prevent preignition which can destroy the motor.


Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Online beetle

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2020, 05:08:49 PM »
You can verify if there's some sort of output from the phase sensor with a multimeter set to AC volts. Connect across the two pins and spin the motor over. Output will be probably less than 1 Volt.
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2020, 04:16:36 AM »
Thanks Beetle I never thought about doing that and it makes a lotta sense.

I'll try that

I wonder if the signal will fluctuate due to the gap, guess I'll find out? I plan to measure the DC volts on the signal wires too as I want to know what the input voltage is on the pickup, it could be a lot less than 12. Being me of course it will turn into science for Dummys 101, the wiring diagram shows 2 wires to that pickup and the plug has 3, which is what I expected, a pos, a neg and a signal. If I know the pos voltage I can emulate the input and when my Silly scope arrives I can look at the signal. I hope in the name of (insert your own diety here) that I've solved it by then though.

Wayne, of course, this is all common sense but hindsight is easy, thanks a lot. The phase sensor has more than one tooth missing a whole section of it is cut out, you can see that in this picture



The engine at that point was on or close to TDC LH cylinder in the picture. I always wondered how it actually knew when to fire as the gap is so wide. I guess that the large gap tells the ECU TDC and some other predetermined point, one of which is on the falling edge Voltage and the other on the rising edge.

Takes me back to a wierd problem in my Turbine days, we had a machine that would hunt at full speed, no load and the commissioning engineer was at his wits end trying to solve it. This went on for weeks, the customer was all over our guy like a rash and my company was putting pressure on everybody involved as there were time penalities. After the start up guy eliminated almost everything else, I got speaking to some experts on the 60 tooth wheel which told the control system roatational speed. We swapped the pos and neg on the speed pickups (there were 3 of them for redundancy) and the hunting stopped. The problem was a poor wheel cut and the signal edge wasn't clean, the waveform had a flat spot about halfway down the rising edge. When we swapped it around it measured on the falling edge and bingo the speed was solid.

Once again many thanks to all

Online beetle

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2020, 05:09:02 AM »
It's a passive device. There's no voltage applied. The third wire is a ground shield.
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2020, 05:21:43 AM »
Thanks Beetle

I had just assumed (wrong again) that such a critical device wouldn't be passive, what with all the electrical noise an engine generates and the return signal would have been higher.

No wonder it's shielded

John

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2020, 10:21:43 AM »
I wonder if the signal will fluctuate due to the gap, guess I'll find out? I plan to measure the DC volts on the signal wires too as I want to know what the input voltage is on the pickup, it could be a lot less than 12. Being me of course it will turn into science for Dummys 101, the wiring diagram shows 2 wires to that pickup and the plug has 3, which is what I expected, a pos, a neg and a signal. If I know the pos voltage I can emulate the input and when my Silly scope arrives I can look at the signal. I hope in the name of (insert your own diety here) that I've solved it by then though.

As mentioned, it is a simple coil of wire over a magnetized steel bar. The third wire is for a shield. I think the Centauro did not use the shield, which was a mistake IMHO.
Set the gap as well as you can. During the Centauro years they sent out a bulletin about setting the gap, using a new slightly tighter spec. It helped a bit I think.

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Offline Old Jock

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2020, 11:07:36 AM »
Yeah I found the update Wayne it was revised from originally 0.6-1.2mm down to 0.7-0.9mm Service bulletin #99429

That's a tight target to hit measuring with a caliper measuring in very a limited space

It also recommends a silicone sealant around the barrel, I'll probably use a thin coat of Hylomar. I pulled out wads of the stuff when I removed the sensor, far too much IMHO

When I removed the sensor it had 3 shims and from the first set of measurements I reckon the gap was around 1.5-1.7mm. I initially measured 30.1 sensor length to flange and somewhere around 30.2-30.5 on flange to phonic tooth

I'll recheck and recheck again, but it's looking like I need a gasket and only one of these shims, sorta MIGHT explain why my RPM readings have been a little flaky.

Thanks for the input & yeah what on earth would posses an electrical designer to think a passive device unshielded close to wires pulsing in excess of 9kV, was a good idea. Starting to understand how Startus Interuptus has been going so long

I'll post up when I put it all back together tomorrow and give GuzziDiag another whirl

John

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2020, 03:42:51 PM »
During your testing you have +12volt on one side of the coils?  That is feed by one of the relays that feeds the pump and injectors too.

 These rpm sensors do break sometimes. since they are stock Mareli parts we can get them here at the autoparts store as Fiat or lancia spare part, but in the USA I don't know. ,
Paul

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Offline Old Jock

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2020, 04:05:53 AM »
Hi Paul

TBH I'm not sure this is an Australia and the coils are mounted on a Heath Robinson POS frame that hangs off the front subframe. Due to the deisgn it's well nigh impossible to get to the LV lines BUT I did have to extend the LV feeds to the coils using some cable and a some 2 pin male & female Superseals, so it would be easy to check. The reason for the extenders was the whole loom was just lying unsupported underneath the frame. I tidied and tied it all up to the base of the frame and that probably shortened the rather tight LV feeds to the coils, by accident.

As long as I was getting an RPM reading on GuzziDiag I was getting a spark and even when I wasn't I'd initially get a spark for one or two cycles before it died.

I also checked the coils and injectors using GuzziDiag and could see the plugs sparking during the test. The injectors I could only hear them as I've yet to pull them.

I'm aware of the Relay, there are 2 as far as I'm aware that need to come in, the ECU relay to power up the ECU (DUH!!) and the Power Relay which is triggered from the ECU and powers the fuel pump, injectors and coils. They're all good, the fuel pump will always run whenever I swtich on the ignition for a few seconds and when I'm turning it over, that's why the fuel pump is currently disconnected when trying to check for a spark, I don't want to wreck the pump by running it dry. All the relays have been replaced with new Panasonic items which are identical to the originals

I'm in the UK not the US, so hopefully should I need a new sensor I could get one. If I need I'll PM you to get a part number if you have one.

Hopefully later today I'll be able to run a test and see if I've been sucessful or not, I'll post back up either way

John

Offline Old Jock

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2020, 09:45:52 AM »
So just closing this out (for now)

Finally got to it after removing 2 shims which is about 0.8mm and running it on 1 shim and a gasket

It may be a little over 0.7-0.9mm spec but reasonably close and I'd rather be a little over than under, the last thing I need is damage to the phonic wheel.

Put GuzziDaig back on with the plugs in and the fuel pump disconnected, established comms then praying and pushing the starter simultaneously, I watched the Diag screen. Initially nothing then after perhaps 4-6 cycles up came the RPM reading. Rinsed and repeated 3 times every time RPM registered, 250 with the ocassional foray to 300.

Tank is now on and the fuel pump connnected and hopefully when I get a weather window I can take it outside (with GuzziDiag attached) and get her to fire to obtain an oil pressure reading.

This bike is bear, I keep doubting myself first with the oil pressure, I was convinced that I'd screwed up Joe's pump install only to find, no, all was good when I tore it down again. This time I was convinced I'd screwed up with the coils, as getting the LV & HV connections made and secure and mount that POS bracket that the coils hang off is stupidly fiddly and I'd managed to screw that up. Nope all of that was fine and the sensor gap was massively wrong.

I don't think Luigi built this one, perhaps Luigi Jnr on his first day as an apprentance they gave him a Hi Cam to build

Thanks again all, once (if?) I get her to fire and get a pressure reading I'll post back up

John

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2020, 10:13:54 AM »
Quote
Nope all of that was fine and the sensor gap was massively wrong.

I don't think Luigi built this one, perhaps Luigi Jnr on his first day as an apprentance they gave him a Hi Cam to build

Thanks again all, once (if?) I get her to fire and get a pressure reading I'll post back up

 :smiley: I've said before that the only reason they assembled Centauros was to make sure you got all the parts. It was a "difficult" time in Guzzi history..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Blueboarhound

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2020, 12:19:13 AM »
 :popcorn:
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: More HiCam Wierdness ECU Related
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2020, 05:24:25 AM »
Ok Blueboarhound

I found the problem the phonic wheel was out 180 degrees  :embarrassed:

After I sorted that I put it back together and fired it with the cooler looped out but the oil pressure was still low

For those who have been following the travails I also seen a lot of oil in the timing chest when cranking it and I thought this was coming from the front mains. However now I'm not so sure and it may be from the open bearing in the new oil pump.

The next move is to remove the new pump and get it back to Joe to have it checked. It was Joe who wanted it back to check, I don't think the new pump is the problem.

The reason I don't think the new pump is the problem, earlier I used a drill in reverse to spin the old pump on a static engine and seen similar oil pressures.

After I get the new pump checked and test it, if (as I suspect) no difference I'll get the engine out and go onto a full strip.

The reason for the delay was I got so sick of chasing my tail with this engine, that I decided to try to cure leaks on the 1100 Sporti. That meant new back and front seals and it is now complete and not leaking Hurrah one success. That bike has also given me fits but looks like it's starting to come good and if the weather holds this afternoon I'm going to wheel it outside and see if I can balance the FI and set the idle.

John

 

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