Small block engine weight?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Does anybody *know*? I'm loosely thinking of a project and need to know what one actually weighs. I've picked them up and put them on the bench, etc. but never have weighed it. I saw one source that said 30KG. Sounds light to me..
No transmission, etc. just the engine.
TIA!

[malik]

Including clutch & flywheel (& oil) the Breva 750 is 42.0kg. Last week,I could have given you the V7S without the clutch, but it's now back in the bike.

BTW the V7C gearbox is 10.9kg, and what I think might be a V35 gearbox is 10.0kg drained.

Mal

[malik]

Note: the flywheel, clutch friction plate & sprung plate weigh 4.2kg - couldn't put my hand on the cup & circlip, so add a fudge factor, call the clutch 4.5kg & you'll be in the ball park.

[SmithSwede]

Chuck:

I have a thread from a while ago when I changed the clutch on my V7.  I weighed my engine without the transmission and then posted the results in case somebody cared.

I’m not sure how to find old posts but it’s out there somewhere. 

[reidy]

 Smithswede
It would appear that on 19Mar18 you had a post called V7 Stone Engine and Gearbox Weight and you posted:
I'm fixing a gear oil leak and probably replacing the clutch on my 2013 V7 Stone.    So, in case anyone cares about this kind of data, I can tell you that:
Gearbox weighs 24 pounds, without gear oil.   That's just the gearbox and bell-housing, but not the starter motor, swing-arms, or gear shift mechanism.
The engine weights right at 95 pounds.  That's with engine oil, clutch and flywheel, but not including injectors or headers.

I assume that is what you are looking for.

Malik posted a weight of 42Kg for a Breva which is 92.6 pounds. 2.4 pounds is not much difference between the two engines.
Malik's gearbox was 10.9Kg which is 24.03 pounds. I think the .03 pound difference will go unnoticed from Smithswede.

Steve

[Muzz]

Oooohh Goody.  Another Chuck project in the offing.

Things gone a bit quiet after the Aerio Lario project.  Too busy riding huh?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oooohh Goody.  Another Chuck project in the offing.

Things gone a bit quiet after the Aerio Lario project.  Too busy riding huh?

Well, the AeroLario is turn key. Service it and ride. Nothing to do.  It's Winter. I *have* a prop reduction unit for a small block. There are several ultra light airplanes meant for 40 or so horsepower.. Many use the "Half VW" that weighs 90 lbs. Hmmm. Just thinking about possibilities.  Sounds like it "could" work.

[John A]

http://www.aerotech-poland.com/index.php?go=6
The hard part done!  Now it’s only (choke) money...

[LowRyter]

Well, the AeroLario is turn key. Service it and ride. Nothing to do.  It's Winter. I *have* a prop reduction unit for a small block. There are several ultra light airplanes meant for 40 or so horsepower.. Many use the "Half VW" that weighs 90 lbs. Hmmm. Just thinking about possibilities.  Sounds like it "could" work.

OMG. I thought you might be thinking that.   Geeezzzz. Be careful.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Chuck is thinking...





 

[Chuck in Indiana]

http://www.aerotech-poland.com/index.php?go=6
The hard part done!  Now it’s only (choke) money...

Thanks, but I *have* a prop reduction unit.. I'm looking for a suitable airframe. I've liked the Hummelbird ever since Morry first brought it to OSH several years ago. It's on the list, but I'm looking. Not seriously though. Yet..

[Testarossa]

 
This is going to be great fun.

I've often thought of doing a homebuilt but at my density altitude no engine I could afford would climb out of ground effect.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks, but I *have* a prop reduction unit.. I'm looking for a suitable airframe. I've liked the Hummelbird ever since Morry first brought it to OSH several years ago. It's on the list, but I'm looking. Not seriously though. Yet..

I like it! https://flyhummel.com/hummelbird/

[bad Chad]

From what I read, and I can't put my head on the line for any of it, modern small blocks are about 100LBs give or take 6/7 pounds.

[Chuck in Indiana]

From what I read, and I can't put my head on the line for any of it, modern small blocks are about 100LBs give or take 6/7 pounds.

It doesn't have to be modern. A V65 or even V50 would (maybe) work. The alternator and starter could be deep sixed, too, if necessary.
An ultralight vehicle is not an "airplane" by definition. The main thing it has to pass is to be no more than 254 lbs. I doubt if a small block with prop reduction could be made to work because of that.
There are other classes of aircraft that I think could. I'm looking at the day when I can no longer get an FAA medical, and still be able to do those really kool sunup and sundown flights. Just brainstorming..

[kirby1923]

Chuck,
If I were you I would not worry too much about getting more HP out of the Guzzi engine but instead finding ways to make it as light as possible. Then select an airframe that needs no more than 45 to 50 hp. It may be a challenge to come up with a good cowling w/the V configuration.

It would probably favor a pusher, but I have found that developing a new engine that you can't see(behind you) can be a disadvantage and a bit unnerving. As long as I can keep an eye on the engine I feel it might behave or at least give me some warning.

My good friend Gene Sheehan was a principle in developing the Quickie that could cruise above 100mph on an Onan 18 hp twin opposed flat head generator engine, and then the Q 2that was two place 150+ mph on a VW of 60 hp. We also flew the Quickie with a 25 hp electric motor.

The 2 cylinder VWs are about 40 hp on average and with careful assembly and tuning 45 hp is possible using VW cylinders. They typically 100 pounds or more in airworthy condition. (magnesium case helps).

So think light weight as being the most important in engine/airframe.

One big disadvantage geared motors...no hand propping! So stuck w/ some sort of starter..ugh! ####

I like this kind of challenge!!

Have fun!
:-)

[Chuck in Indiana]

Mike said

One big disadvantage geared motors...no hand propping! So stuck w/ some sort of starter..ugh! ####

Yuck, I'd forgotten about that. Even a Valeo is heavy, and would have to be figured in. I would think a Guzzi would *have* to have a gear reduction, though. It doesn't make much power at 3500 rpm. I could get some of it back by cutting everything that isn't necessary off the flywheel..

[kirby1923]

Mike saidYuck, I'd forgotten about that. Even a Valeo is heavy, and would have to be figured in. I would think a Guzzi would *have* to have a gear reduction, though. It doesn't make much power at 3500 rpm. I could get some of it back by cutting everything that isn't necessary off the flywheel..

Yes I agree, some sort of gearing needed on such a low capacity, but remember the quickie did well on 18 hp and great on 22!

The Onan was a flathead and the original one used was only 800cc! 18hp @3400.

In my cad files I have been working on a air start from a compressed air bottle or compressor, but it would be a one shot thing that only start on the gnd.

A used quickie would be great but its a composite airframe that somebody else?! built ugh!!!, so if I did that I would load test the structure before my pink body went airborne..Ha!

Weight..the key!!

:-)

[Gliderjohn]

Good luck! Sounds like this could be interesting.
GliderJohn

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yes I agree, some sort of gearing needed on such a low capacity, but remember the quickie did well on 18 hp and great on 22!

The Onan was a flathead and the original one used was only 800cc! 18hp @3400.

In my cad files I have been working on a air start from a compressed air bottle or compressor, but it would be a one shot thing that only start on the gnd.

A used quickie would be great but its a composite airframe that somebody else?! built ugh!!!, so if I did that I would load test the structure before my pink body went airborne..Ha!

Weight..the key!!

:-)

I'd think a Quickie would be too small for a Guzzi, not to mention my dainty derriere fitting into it. Besides that, I'm not a fan of canards or compost    airplanes in general. <snapping suspenders>

[BrotherJim]

I'd think a Quickie would be too small for a Guzzi, not to mention my dainty derriere fitting into it. Besides that, I'm not a fan of canards or compost    airplanes in general. <snapping suspenders>

A compost airframe does sound a bit sketchy.    Dang autocorrect!

[kirby1923]

I'd think a Quickie would be too small for a Guzzi, not to mention my dainty derriere fitting into it. Besides that, I'm not a fan of canards or compost    airplanes in general. <snapping suspenders>

Ha!  I sort agree not to fond of the composite (or cannards) either but I have flown (6'4" 35 inseam) one and its a good flier, even seen Bob Hover fly the factory one at the Mojave air races in '78, (he rolled it on takeoff)!

All Quickies were built from factory made Kits soooo, still a bit shaky for me.

I was just pointing out that there are airframes that would do OK on very low hp (single place.) Shirley a Guzzi small block could produce 20 hp (or more) direct drive. If your goal is to just "fly" a Guzzi might be smart to ditch the gears. Just a thought.

The two cylinder VWs do pretty well.

Geared A/C engines  have all sorts of harmonic (potentially) issues.

BTW, bet that gearbox is worth more than the engine! probably a lot of would be  steely eyed aviators looking for just that sort of gearbox to hang on a garden tractor engine and head into the wild blue or.... oblivion.

:-)

[bad Chad]

Maybe a good old HD Pan Head would work?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Maybe a good old HD Pan Head would work?

Nope.  I know a guy that put a solid mounted EVO on a very nicely designed and built little biplane. He was literally afraid it was going to shake the airframe apart  when he broke ground, and that was as far as it went.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ha!  I sort agree not to fond of the composite (or cannards) either but I have flown (6'4" 35 inseam) one and its a good flier, even seen Bob Hover fly the factory one at the Mojave air races in '78, (he rolled it on takeoff)!

All Quickies were built from factory made Kits soooo, still a bit shaky for me.

I was just pointing out that there are airframes that would do OK on very low hp (single place.) Shirley a Guzzi small block could produce 20 hp (or more) direct drive. If your goal is to just "fly" a Guzzi might be smart to ditch the gears. Just a thought.

The two cylinder VWs do pretty well.

Geared A/C engines  have all sorts of harmonic (potentially) issues.

BTW, bet that gearbox is worth more than the engine! probably a lot of would be  steely eyed aviators looking for just that sort of gearbox to hang on a garden tractor engine and head into the wild blue or.... oblivion.

:-)

Believe me, I'm listening to what you are saying. Guzzi solved the harmonic problem by using the stock V7 clutch plate to drive the reduction drive.  Of course, if I lightened the flywheel, all bets are off. It would *probably* work, IMHO.
Yeah, VWs are great little aircraft engines. I've been flying Mouser

 for..uh.. 30 some (!) years now. I'm looking for slow. Most likely open cockpit. Not a flying lawn chair made with aluminum tubing, hardware store pop rivets, and a prayer.  So far, the Hummelbird checks those boxes.
I haven't seriously started weighing what it would take to make a small block airworthy yet. It might not be feasible.<shrug>

[kirby1923]

I know this is a moto forum and we are talking A/C so I'll keep this short.

I always wondered how the Guzzi guys dealt with the vibration on the drones. The 90 deg twin does well bolted to a moto frame in the most used cruising rpm range but bolted to a light airframe..well.

The VW being an opposed 180 configuration it is in perfect balance except for the shaking order and the prop is the fly wheel. The small cylinders also contribute to the relative smoothness.

If you get into this I can help with a balancing trick we developed for the direct drive 100 cubic inch engine that works well.

Dick Rutan flew our prototype and said it was the smoothest twin he had flown and arguably as good or better than the O-200 in hs C-150.

The HKS guys did well with their twin but they are $$$$ and now out of production.

BTW, LOVE open cars and A/C!!!

:-)

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'm resurrecting this thread.  The project that I was working on has 30 hours on it with a 3 cylinder aircraft engine.
I have a new project (I need something to do to keep me occupied and out of my sweetie's hair) that needs a heavier engine. I woke up this morning thinking, "I have the mount, oil cooler, redrive, etc. from the Aero engine.." I've always said I do my best work in bed. 
The problem is.. it might not be heavy enough. I'll do some research and a little math today.
In the meantime, does anyone know where I could get a boneyard hemi head small block? Cheap, naturally.. (Guzzi content) 
TIA

[Moparnut72]

Three cylinder aircraft engine? What is it?
kk

[Chuck in Indiana]

Verner.. Czech Republic.

[Moparnut72]

I guess I should have gone back and re-read this thread. I remember now. Thanks.
kk