NGC - Subaru Coolant

[pehayes]

I had a 2002 Subaru Outback that leaked head gaskets at just over 60K miles, just out of warranty.  Subaru kindly split the bill in half out of 'customer good will'.  Not cheap work on a flat-four engine.  They blamed the leakage on use of poor coolant or leaving the coolant too long and allowing acid to build up and eat the head gaskets.  Bah!  Hundreds of similar reports during that vintage period.  Months later I was notified that I was automatically in a class action suit regarding overly aggressive odometer readings.  Turns out my head gasket leakage was actually within warranty once the odo correction was applied.  Thus, they had to pay back all of my money for the head work.  Fast forward some years and mileage to 120K.  I'm fastidious with the coolant replacement and the gaskets leak again.  This time repair was fully out of my pocket. Ouch.

Now driving a 2017 Outback.  Just over two years but low mileage so I thought I'd better check and prepare to replace coolant.  Dig out the maintenance manuals.  The system now calls for FIRST coolant replacement at 11 YEARS or 137,000 miles.  Then every 6 years thereafter.  WTF?  They must have become tired of paying out for numerous prior complaints and so now they've come up with some magical mumbo-jumbo snake oil coolant.  Hard to imagine the total flip flop in coolant maintenance scheduling.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Bulldog9]

Back in 2008, we bought a 2005 Outback 3.0VDC from a Toyota dealer. The Toyota dealer had serviced the car and replaced oil and coolant, etc.

Within a week I could smell a coolant leak and it was using coolant. I live 2 minutes from a Subaru dealer, drove over and talked to the service guys. They gave me a little bottle of additive and said 'this happens all the time' we recommend Subaru coolant which has this additive, but you can use normal Prestone and add the bottle. If you don't, you will leak coolant and will simulate a bad head gasket."

HIGHLY Sceptical, I added the bottle and also bought the Subaru coolant. The leak stopped after a day or so. A few weeks later, I changed out coolant for the Subaru coolant, added a bottle for good measure , and we/she drove the car 10 years and 150k miles without another issue. Magic Juice indeed.....

Cant wait for my next Subaru, hoping the next WRX offers a hatch, or the Crosstrek gets a turbo motor option.

[Rough Edge racing]

The Subaru head gasket issue went on from the late 90's to about 2005. It was a chronic problem affecting maybe 50 % of the four cylinder engines and Subaru tried to ignore it.

 The real problem was the head gaskets

[steven c]

 And the 2017 is a different motor, they don't blow head gaskets, just keep an eye on your oil level.,,,

[Roebling3]

Patrick, et. al.,
This from my son. For a time service mgr. at a Subaru dealership.

 Mon Pére,

Millyard is wacky in that very English of ways... split the cases.. WITH A HACKSAW??.

Subarus don't handle a few things.. cold start high revs is one.. High speed running down a highway for long periods of time (80+ steady state) is another.

Head gasket problems for the most part seem to happen because the head studs stretch unevenly and they never get retorqued . 2 Subaru mechanics I have known  would pull the valve covers and retorque the heads between 20-40K and those cars never had an issue later. But that is undocumented..
Subaru won't pay for that process but Al and Mike both swear by it.

After they fail once the Block and heads need to be checked really carefully for flatness( not just eyeballed with a straight edge. the lands are too small to be checked that way.
the Subaru engine has water passages unlike an old aircooled VW.. and they tend to leak water to oil, to atmosphere.. rarely from the combustion chamber unless they are overheated.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The Subaru head gasket issue went on from the late 90's to about 2005. It was a chronic problem affecting maybe 50 % of the four cylinder engines and Subaru tried to ignore it.

 The real problem was the head gaskets

My sister's 2007 had head gaskets replaced under warranty.

[Roebling3]

"Overly aggressive coolant changes': That sounds like something Volkswagen might do.  R3~

[Rough Edge racing]

My sister's 2007 had head gaskets replaced under warranty.

  Yes, after thousands of onwers complained and  law suits ....I believe there are two head gasket issues, the earlier one up to around 2005 that causes combustion gases to get into the cooling system , causing overheating ...The second problem on a redesigned engine was less severe with coolant leaks outside the engine.
  If the car runs 100K miles and has only one big repair like headgaskets, you just do the job and drive on for another 100K miles...It's about 1500 bucks...But the real issue was Subaru just ignored the complaints...

[bigbikerrick]

Reading stuff like this makes me wonder WHY Subaru has such a loyal following........Mu st be a "love" thing, as in love is blind!
Rick.

[blackcat]

Reading stuff like this makes me wonder WHY Subaru has such a loyal following........Mu st be a "love" thing, as in love is blind!
Rick.

Sounds like the MG followers.......

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

  Yes, after thousands of onwers complained and  law suits ....I believe there are two head gasket issues, the earlier one up to around 2005 that causes combustion gases to get into the cooling system , causing overheating ...The second problem on a redesigned engine was less severe with coolant leaks outside the engine.
  If the car runs 100K miles and has only one big repair like headgaskets, you just do the job and drive on for another 100K miles...It's about 1500 bucks...But the real issue was Subaru just ignored the complaints...

The repairs lasted right up until the engine blew up. 

Reading stuff like this makes me wonder WHY Subaru has such a loyal following........Mu st be a "love" thing, as in love is blind!
Rick.

I don't understand it either. 

[Perazzimx14]

Coolant is either propylene (vegetable oil) or ethylene (alcohol) based. The are not interchangeable. We use both it in heating systems all the time for freeze protection and they are good for decades as long as they are not contaminated or diluted.

With that you'll notice that most "antifreeze" has aluminium safe on the bottle. That meand the base glycol has had a buffering agent added to it to adjust the pH to be aluminium safe or in the  7.0 to 8.5pH range. If it gets outside of this range is will corrode, etch and eat away at the aluminium at a very rapid rate the further you get from center of the range. If you are not aware the pH scale each point is one time greater. So a pH of 8.5 is not 1.5x more acidic than a pH of 7 it is actually 15x more acidic. Its a quickly escalating scale and that is why even a couple points can make a huge difference. Heat also plays a role in making the acid more effective at doing its thing.

Now with all of that unless the head gasket was made of aluminium or aluminium alloy there is no way adic ate away at it. If they are copper gaskets the acidic argument is again totally out of the window. Copper does not corrode in acidic solutions.

[elvisboy77]

I had a 2002 Subaru Outback that leaked head gaskets at just over 60K miles, just out of warranty.  Subaru kindly split the bill in half out of 'customer good will'.  Not cheap work on a flat-four engine.  They blamed the leakage on use of poor coolant or leaving the coolant too long and allowing acid to build up and eat the head gaskets.  Bah!  Hundreds of similar reports during that vintage period.  Months later I was notified that I was automatically in a class action suit regarding overly aggressive odometer readings.  Turns out my head gasket leakage was actually within warranty once the odo correction was applied.  Thus, they had to pay back all of my money for the head work.  Fast forward some years and mileage to 120K.  I'm fastidious with the coolant replacement and the gaskets leak again.  This time repair was fully out of my pocket. Ouch.

Now driving a 2017 Outback.  Just over two years but low mileage so I thought I'd better check and prepare to replace coolant.  Dig out the maintenance manuals.  The system now calls for FIRST coolant replacement at 11 YEARS or 137,000 miles.  Then every 6 years thereafter.  WTF?  They must have become tired of paying out for numerous prior complaints and so now they've come up with some magical mumbo-jumbo snake oil coolant.  Hard to imagine the total flip flop in coolant maintenance scheduling.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

When it comes to Subaru, nothing surprises me.  They said (with a straight face!) that 600 miles per quart was NORMAL consumption of oil.  I asked them where the storage compartment was for the 8 quarts my sister would need between changes.  When I threatened to complain to the State Attorney General's office they finally capitulated and ultimately replaced the engine, but it was a fight.

It is amazing how popular they are, considering how poor their quality is.  Missing welds, blown head gaskets, high oil use.  Other than that they must be great cars LOL.

[Bulldog9]

Meh............

Same could be said of any vehicle. They all have their foibles flukes and flaws. On Balance, Subarus are solid durable and reliable vehicles.

Anecdotes are what they are..... If they hadn't transitioned to the CVT, we would likely still own one. Ours provided great service. We bought it with 75K & put 150K on it with just brakes, fluids and filters, at 150K new struts, maybe a sway bar link and control arm bushings. I think there are about 4 in our extended family, and none have issues.

[cookiemech]

Reading stuff like this makes me wonder WHY Subaru has such a loyal following........Mu st be a "love" thing, as in love is blind!
Rick.

Drive a Subaru with four Blizzaks in horrible snowy, icy conditions and you'll see. Money cannot buy better AWD than Subaru, and certainly not in similarly priced cars.

Also, Subarus tend to be less expensive than other, similar cars, though perhaps less trendy and polished.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Drive a Subaru with four Blizzaks in horrible snowy, icy conditions and you'll see. Money cannot buy better AWD than Subaru, and certainly not in similarly priced cars.

Also, Subarus tend to be less expensive than other, similar cars, though perhaps less trendy and polished.

I put 200,000 miles on an '88 Audi 80 Quattro, never even had snow tires, only M&S. Never got stuck or had any problem getting where I needed to be. Back then I worked a job where I was "essential personnel" and had to be there no matter what. Torsen center and lockable rear differentials did the job without any electronic voodoo.

Bought it in '94 for $4k and it already had 109,000 miles on it. Never needed anything except regular maintenance and "perishables". Best car I ever owned...

[fotoguzzi]

Drive a Subaru with four Blizzaks in horrible snowy, icy conditions and you'll see. Money cannot buy better AWD than Subaru, and certainly not in similarly priced cars.

Also, Subarus tend to be less expensive than other, similar cars, though perhaps less trendy and polished.

what he said..

When I have to drive 50 miles to clear my parents 1/4 mile long driveway I always take a Subi.. can drive right in with 10 or more inches of fresh snow.

[Bulldog9]

I put 200,000 miles on an '88 Audi 80 Quattro, never even had snow tires, only M&S. Never got stuck or had any problem getting where I needed to be. Back then I worked a job where I was "essential personnel" and had to be there no matter what. Torsen center and lockable rear differentials did the job without any electronic voodoo.

Bought it in '94 for $4k and it already had 109,000 miles on it. Never needed anything except regular maintenance and "perishables". Best car I ever owned...

  I had several Audi's..... an 84 4000 Quattro CS and a triple black 1985 5000 Turbo Quattro with 5 speed.... I loved them almost as much as they loved my wallet..... The 4000 spent more time at the shop than it did in my driveway. The Audi dealer was so embarassed, they let me trade it 2 years later at almost no loss for the 5000, which was great for about 40K miles when it popped several exhaust manifold gaskets blew two throwout bearings, a radiator, every power window and door lock motor, CV joints, etc.... Got it all fixed before the warranty expired and traded it....... NEVER looked back, but I will say Audi has come a long way towards reliability improvements.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I had several Audi's..... an 84 4000 Quattro CS and a triple black 1985 5000 Turbo Quattro with 5 speed.... I loved them almost as much as they loved my wallet..... The 4000 spent more time at the shop than it did in my driveway. The Audi dealer was so embarassed, they let me trade it 2 years later at almost no loss for the 5000, which was great for about 40K miles when it popped several exhaust manifold gaskets blew two throwout bearings, a radiator, every power window and door lock motor, CV joints, etc.... Got it all fixed before the warranty expired and traded it....... NEVER looked back, but I will say Audi has come a long way towards reliability improvements.

My first Audi was an '85 5000S (front-wheel-drive only). Bought it with 116k miles on it, sold it with 254k after hitting a deer. Still ran great, but had issues with the climate control (US sourced). Only thing that ever went wrong with it was a leaky steering rack (rebuilt by my brother and I), clutch slave cylinder and front wheel bearings. The rest was just maintenance and "perishables". Both of mine were pretty reliable...

My brother had a '85 4000S Quattro and put a lot of trouble-free miles on it driving to see his girlfriend in NM. He also owned a Ur-Quattro (Turbo Quattro Coupe) and 5000S Turbo Quattro for a while. All among the most trouble-free cars he ever owned. A while later was several A4 Quattros that he flipped to make $$ on and currently he has a '97 VW Passat 4Motion Wagon and a '14? Audi Allroad.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Most who live in areas where snow covered roads are common has probably noticed that 4 wheel drive traction is primarily a function of tire grip and suspension spring rates...Generally speaking, before the recent addition a of traction control device that use brakes to control the wheels to aid traction, it was one wheel in front and one in back doing the work unless the vehicle had a limited slip differential..Vehic les with softer suspension may do better in snow especially over rough ground...I  Recently bought a 02 Honda CRV..it literally sucked in the snow..The supposed all wheel drive didn't seem to function properly... I bought a set of Toyo new generation snow tires that have all season rating with 50,000 mile tread life...The Honda was  tranformed into a Subaru, LOL....But my 09 Ranger with part time 4x4 and a rear limited slip and tall not so wide tires is still better in deep snow or mud. Same for the many Cherokkes I have owned... And as always, the skill of the driver....

[Kev m]

Most who live in areas where snow covered roads are common has probably noticed that 4 wheel drive traction is primarily a function of tire grip and suspension spring rates...Generally speaking, before the recent addition a of traction control device that use brakes to control the wheels to aid traction, it was one wheel in front and one in back doing the work unless the vehicle had a limited slip differential..Vehic les with softer suspension may do better in snow especially over rough ground...I  Recently bought a 02 Honda CRV..it literally sucked in the snow..The supposed all wheel drive didn't seem to function properly... I bought a set of Toyo new generation snow tires that have all season rating with 50,000 mile tread life...The Honda was  tranformed into a Subaru, LOL....But my 09 Ranger with part time 4x4 and a rear limited slip and tall not so wide tires is still better in deep snow or mud. Same for the many Cherokkes I have owned... And as always, the skill of the driver....

Subaru has used a number of driveline systems for traction. But even before the current crop of largely TC balanced AWD systems the Subarus had an advantage over most open diff 4x4. The combination of low center of gravity and front-to-rear weight balance (thanks largely to the engine and driveline design) and systems that assured drive force at all the wheels meant for extremely capable (more than most) AWD systems.

I remember a test that was conducted that put a number of cross-overs on large ramp and then uncovered rollers under 3 of the 4 wheels. The Subaru was one of the only ones that continued to climb the roller.

We bought our first when the Forester first debuted and it was a downright tank in deep winter snow (and on ice) with Blizzaks. It lasted a good 250k before it was sold.

At the time I bought a Grand Cherokee only because it was available with an arguably even better system that basically used 3 viscous clutch locking differentials (one at each diff and one in the transfer case). You could literally put 3 wheels on ice and it had the mechanical ability to essentially put all drive force into the remaining wheel no matter which one it was.

But then a few years later I had the opportunity to pick up another Subaru (Baja 5-speed, non-turbo) and that was another unbelievable tank in the snow, especially with Blizzaks. I remember taking the family skiing during a blizzard and then driving home (took at least 4-5 hours) in more than a foot of unplowed snow the whole way - we're talking they weren't even plowing the PA turnpike yet. So we drove I dunno 130 miles in the middle of Blizzard on roads so badly unplowed or treated that we had problems finding lanes and shoulders. The Baja never missed a beat. I really REALLY was worried toward the end as it was approaching two feet of snow and she was obviously pushing snow the whole way.

My 99 Cherokee classic was a joke compared to those vehicles. Our current 2012 WK2 Grand Cherokee is somewhere in the middle, but it doesn't have the Quadra-Drive, but the current Quadra-Drive isn't the same system anymore, it's more electronic than purely mechanical.

My 2016 JKU Wrangler has an LSD rear diff and uses TC to virtually lock the front, combined with MT tires is decent, and very capable, but not nearly as stable.

But I'd still go with a Subaru today over most AWD vehicles for extreme performance and capability in foul weather.

[larrys]

Had a number of Subarus and loved the AWD system. Got away from them because of the aforementioned head gasket issues and CVT transmission woes. That being said, my Ford Edge Limited with the 3.5 six and AWD is pretty much unstoppable. Mrs. larrys loves her Audi Q3 AWD.
Larry

[Moparnut72]

One of my post retirement jobs was at a NAPA store. We sold a lot of front drive axles for Subaru's. Also an extraordinary number of headlight bulbs for them as well. I could never understand that one. We do have a high number of Subaru's where I live. The owners sure love them My step daughter has had a couple, she just bought a brand new one last month. Her old one was starting the head gasket thing but she bought it used so who knows.
kk

[Testarossa]

Over the years I've bought half a dozen used Subarus and probably put 700,000 miles on them in high-mountain snow. Tahoe and Colorado mostly. Had some weepy valve cover gaskets but no head gasket issues -, hardly any serious mech issues at all. All these cars perished unnaturally -- an elk strike, rear-ended, given away to the daughter etc. Current version is a turbo Forester, dead reliable at 160k.With any real winter tire these things are unstoppable. And (Guzzi content) they're cheap compared to the less reliable Euros.

[Bill Owens]

There was a time I wanted to get a tee shirt made that would read. BLOWN HEAD GASKET? ITS WHAT MAKES A SUBARU A SUBARU!  left a real bad taste

[Bulldog9]

One of my post retirement jobs was at a NAPA store. We sold a lot of front drive axles for Subaru's. Also an extraordinary number of headlight bulbs for them as well. I could never understand that one. We do have a high number of Subaru's where I live. The owners sure love them My step daughter has had a couple, she just bought a brand new one last month. Her old one was starting the head gasket thing but she bought it used so who knows.
kk

Oh man... I completely forgot about the EVERY 5-6 month headlight replacement....

You guys have convinced me. Subaru's are garbage. 😆

Seriously though, what a PIT@

[fotoguzzi]

On the headlight issue.. my 06 had headlights that were always on, I contend the surge of power on start up is what made the bulb die prematurely .. so I disconnected the box that controlled that and never had another blown headlight. As a bonus I had control over when my headlights were on or not.
My 09 Forester has running lights so the main headlights are not on until you turn them on, never had a blown bulb in that car.

[Rough Edge racing]

 All this all wheel drive talk reminds me the first 4x4 I bought was around 1990..But before that and my go work vehicle were two wheel drive PU trucks that got me everywhere I wanted to go  that now seems to require all wheel drive...

[Kev m]

All this all wheel drive talk reminds me the first 4x4 I bought was around 1990..But before that and my go work vehicle were two wheel drive PU trucks that got me everywhere I wanted to go  that now seems to require all wheel drive...

It's not about require. It's about greater capability = more margin

[jwinwi]

Had a number of Subarus and loved the AWD system. Got away from them because of the aforementioned head gasket issues and CVT transmission woes. That being said, my Ford Edge Limited with the 3.5 six and AWD is pretty much unstoppable. Mrs. larrys loves her Audi Q3 AWD.
Larry

Here's to the Ford 3.5