Author Topic: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?  (Read 622 times)

Offline Old Jock

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Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« on: January 30, 2020, 08:24:54 AM »
As stated I haven't clue apart from it's a Ducati Alternator and these bikes have a 78mm stroke (I think)

1100 Sporti's look identical but they have 80mm stroke

I was wondering if any other models share the same crank as I might need to source one soon


John

Offline Guzzistaracing

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 12:19:17 PM »
I don`t think so as the high cam engine was only used in the daytona and the centauro.
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 12:37:44 PM »
As stated I haven't clue apart from it's a Ducati Alternator and these bikes have a 78mm stroke (I think)

1100 Sporti's look identical but they have 80mm stroke

I was wondering if any other models share the same crank as I might need to source one soon


John

Stein-Dinse lists the same part number (29064161) for both the Daytona and California 3 i.e. crankshafts. Both have a 78 mm stroke and Ducati alternator, so it makes sense.

https://shop.tlm.nl/en/crankshaft-ducati-stroke-78mm-290641610000-moto-guzzi
Charlie
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2020, 12:50:07 PM »
Thanks Charlie

Maybe more chance of me snagging a Cali 3 crank as the Daytona especially but also Centauro seem pretty thin this side of the pond

John

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2020, 04:04:54 PM »
Thanks Charlie

Maybe more chance of me snagging a Cali 3 crank as the Daytona especially but also Centauro seem pretty thin this side of the pond

John

IIRC, the early Cal 3s had a Bosch or Saprisa alternator, so it'll need to be from a late one.
Charlie
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2020, 05:50:21 PM »
IIRC, the early Cal 3s had a Bosch or Saprisa alternator, so it'll need to be from a late one.
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Online Turin

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2020, 06:26:27 PM »
I think you can install the 1100 crank for a displacement increase. ( stroker )
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2020, 04:22:24 AM »
I wondered about that Turin, but what about the belts and front casing not sure if they'd fit and what about the timing?

It would be really nice if I could as these are a lot easier to source

Thanks for the replies

Offline Rolf Halvorsen

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2020, 05:32:35 AM »
Hello John

In Norway I know of one crank, 78mm stroke, Ducati generator. Price NOK 3800 similar to USD 400.

file:///C:/Users/rolfh/Desktop/photo%20crank.htm

If interested, send me a mail so that I can give you the picture and the sellers identity.

Rolf

Offline mtiberio

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2020, 05:54:05 AM »
As stated I haven't clue apart from it's a Ducati Alternator and these bikes have a 78mm stroke (I think)

1100 Sporti's look identical but they have 80mm stroke

I was wondering if any other models share the same crank as I might need to source one soon


John

Most cranks can be welded up and re-ground. That is of course unless you broke it in two.

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2020, 08:42:43 AM »
No its not broken in fact it's fine as far as I'm aware Mike and the bike is around 5k miles

The problem is that the crank has the front mains undersized (I think), from what I can gather it left the factory that way. This all started as I was having problems with low oil pressure, 50psi on cold oil at idle which is well low for any of the Guzzis that I've came across (70 is what I'm used to seeing). There is somewhat sparse evidence of some of these bikes suffering from low pressure most probably due to a batch of cranks with undersized mains, but as not a lot of people put gauges on these bikes a lot are probably blisfullly unaware.

The low oil pressure, on mine anyway, leads to the oil getting very hot this exacerbates the low pressure and so the thing spirals down until I either stop or I wreck the engine. I've checked the other suspects (gaskets, relief valve, oil filter related problems, oil cooler etc:) and am now more or less certain the problem is with the bearing clearances. I posted on another thread 2 videos showing the leakge from the front mains when cranking into the timing chest from both bikes which have the same oil in etc: One is the HiCam the other my Sport which has good pressure

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=104283.0 

After I sort the seals on my 1100 Sport, I intend to pull the whole HiCam engine to pieces and get the crank, mains and big ends measured

Guzzi cranks from what I hear can have varying results from regrinds, I'm sure pletny are fine but I've heard of quite a few failing, if you know more or better please educate me

I know I could go undersize on the mains and that's a possibility of all else fails

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2020, 11:29:57 AM »
Found this Cali 3 crank off E-Bay, I obviously need to ask some questions but it looks like it might do the job if the throw is correct and the big end diameter meets the tighter spec that's required for the big end journal

Any comments from anybody?






Online blackcat

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2020, 05:35:14 PM »
Reboot Guzzi:  “Crankshaft, con-rods and main bearings for 1000 Daytona/Quota/late Cali III(Ducati alternator models). Good condition, £275.00”
boom shakalaka
http://youtu.be/wHUP527txeg

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Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2020, 03:50:42 AM »
Thanks BC

I've sent them a mail to enquire about

John

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2020, 01:32:20 PM »
Ok closing this out for the moment

BUT I wanted to make a point for all the Daytona RS and Centauro owners out there

The Daytona and Cali 3 (late) have a different crankshaft part number to the Centauro/Daytona RS bikes. I think (but cannot be sure) this is due to tightened crankpin clearance for the Carrillo rods. There could be other differences for example crank web and balancing (but I don't know)

Daytona/Cali3 part number 29064161

Daytona RS/Centauro part number 30064145

John

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2020, 05:37:56 PM »
I have a crank from an EV in nice condition if somebody needs one.
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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2020, 05:54:15 PM »
The daytona/ centauro cranks have different part numbers from the rest because of balancing. I think the daytona 1000 has less holes in it as the centauro/daytona RS cranks. from both are there a couple in my stock, but most will need undersize bearings and be reground first.

But the oil thing on these bikes is almost any time the oil pump. Losing pressure because o the bearing size , never heard of.
Paul

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Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2020, 04:50:38 AM »
Hi Paul

I've been through this all, first the bike was checked by throwing in the broadsump internal pipework from my 1100 (almost identical, except the 1100 has a 1 bar lower relief pressure), still low pressure

The pump has been tried with both the standard and DAS pumps both more or less identical readings

I also ran with the cooler looped out (no change)

I'm getting around 50-55psi on idle with cold oil, on the 1100 it's closer to 65-70psi (my LMV is also around relief valve pressure of 65-70 on cold oil at idle).

I know that from my little experiment on the 1100 and HiCam that the HiCam is throwing out way more oil out the front mains than the 1100 (none to speak of), when cranking the bike and looking into the timing chest.

I also know that when I did a cursory measurement on the front journal it was at min spec or perhaps below. That was just at the very front in one spot so not a great or relaible figure.

Given that is what I'm seeing into the timing chest I ASS-ume that the same amount is also getting chucked into the rear and that leakage flow I believe is a square law to pressure, so what happens when it's at 1200 rpm on hot oil doesn't really bear thinking about

I have no clue about the rear mains (yet)

Talking to HMB I was told that grinding undersize would be a last option, HMB used to offer this service but stopped it due to the number of broken cranks that were occuring.

So hence the seach for a Centauro or RS crank.

Many thanks for the info and offer (if it was an offer) of the cranks, I do know where I can lay my hands on a 30k mile engine and I'll probably purchase it as spares are getting scarcer

The info is also invaluable I wondered if there was a weiight difference too

But the tighter clearances also hold true in the 1100/DaytonaRS/Centauro manual, it states crankpin diameter on the Centauro Daytona 44.008-44.012, on the 1100 (and on a standard Daytona) 44.008-44.020. If you install Rillos to a Sporti the crankpin tolerance drops to the same as Centauro/Daytona. The short version is Guzzi rods 0.012mm tolerance, Rillos 0.004mm tolerance on the crankpin and reduced big end crankpin gap into the bargain

Speaking to a few guy's who are considered experienced on these engines I'm told it's rare but not exclusive for mains clearances to cause low pressure. There are also some who installed gauges to these bikes and have, despite eliminating the usual suspects, still got low pressure

It will be at least a couple of months before I pull the crank when I do I'll come back on and post up what measurements I get and take it from there. HMB stated that they would probably be able to make custom mains for me to suit the journal size providing it was undamaged so that's another possibilty and companies exist that will tin used bearings and ream them out to a size too (although the lead times were horrendous)

John
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 05:32:44 AM by Old Jock »

Offline Blueboarhound

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2020, 11:58:32 PM »
 :popcorn:
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: Centauro/Daytona/RS Any Other models with same crank?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2020, 05:31:56 AM »
Refer to this thread for the current condition of where I am with this engine  :wink:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=104054.0

Post #17, thanks for the interest.

Are all these lockdowns making things that bad, that everybody is trawling old threads?

I can't blame you I'm in the UK on lockdown, just starting week #2, I suspect we probably have at least another 10 to go. It's not giving me a warm fuzzy feeling  :wink:

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