820cc kit v7 ii possible to use carbs?

[Beowulf]

Curiosity question for those with way more knowledge than me( not hard).

If one was to buy the guzzi tech kit and find compatible carbs what would this take?

[Chuck in Indiana]

A manifold at the least.

[malik]

I don't know much, but after that chap put the Stone motor into the Lario, with the original carbs (and blocked the sensor holes) I would think it possible. Desirable? One of advantages of FI is the ease of adjusting fuelling, etc without the smelly fingers or the expense of dynos. Either route is likely to take a lot of work to get right.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I want to see a 820cc V7II with Lectron carbs... please make it happen.

[guzzisteve]

There was a chap here and on GT that put the new motor in a V65TT and used carbs. He's from England, do a search. Or go to GT forum & search.

[sign216]

The earliest 820 kits were for the Nevadas, and I think they were carbed.  I got mine, designed for the Nevadas, from R.A.M. of Italy, purchased through Agostini (rip).  They were nice quality, and drop in.

Joe

[Beowulf]

The earliest 820 kits were for the Nevadas, and I think they were carbed.  I got mine, designed for the Nevadas, from R.A.M. of Italy, purchased through Agostini (rip).  They were nice quality, and drop in.

Joe

So i contacted ram about the kit. They wrote back saying they no longer supply it. How would i start?

This is gonna take a minute due to funds but i really want to build this. Im thinking if i save i can get this done in a year. Inn the meantime i will dip my homework. Please feel free to provide any suggestions. Your tutorial for the head gaskets was great.

[sign216]

So i contacted ram about the kit. They wrote back saying they no longer supply it. How would i start?

This is gonna take a minute due to funds but i really want to build this. Im thinking if i save i can get this done in a year. Inn the meantime i will dip my homework. Please feel free to provide any suggestions. Your tutorial for the head gaskets was great.

Beowulf,

Sorry to hear that RAM is no longer a provider.  Maybe Guzzitech then?
Or, you could hunt Ebay for an old unit, but that might take forever.
I'm open to ideas.

Joe

[oldbike54]

 How much does this cost and how much power do you possibly hope to gain . I can't imagine more than a realistic 3.5 HP gain for a thousand bucks 

 Dusty

[Beowulf]

This is mostly for fun. Im thinking a 5-7 hp gain is possible. But something tells me there's got to be more to tap than that.

Even if not though itd be fun. Anyone know the size piston i would need? Is possible to source some outside guzzi tech( nothing against them).

Is the Heron Head really that limited?

Anyone know the realistic difference in power 4 valves vs 2 would make?
 
Educate me please.

[oldbike54]

This is mostly for fun. Im thinking a 5-7 hp gain is possible. But something tells me there's got to be more to tap than that.

Even if not though itd be fun. Anyone know the size piston i would need? Is possible to source some outside guzzi tech( nothing against them).

Is the Heron Head really that limited?

Anyone know the realistic difference in power 4 valves vs 2 would make?
 
Educate me please.

 I seriously doubt 5 HP is possible , because yes , Heron heads are that limited . You will need a matched set of cylinders and pistons , nikasil can't be bored . The 4 valve heads (Lario) developed by Mike Wrenn in Enid OK are a crap shoot . Realistically , you will see whatever power increase the extra displacement gives you as a percentage of the stock output . Maybe .

 Dusty

[not-fishing]

This is mostly for fun. Im thinking a 5-7 hp gain is possible. But something tells me there's got to be more to tap than that.

Even if not though itd be fun. Anyone know the size piston i would need? Is possible to source some outside guzzi tech( nothing against them).

Is the Heron Head really that limited?

Anyone know the realistic difference in power 4 valves vs 2 would make?
 
Educate me please.

You're really going off into the weeds on this mod.  Far beyond where most of us have gone.

Good luck but my advice is look at how they carbed older engines.  Measure 5 times and buy once.  You'll probably only be able to do it in parts kind of like an old Johnny Cash song about Cadillacs.

My youngest son only owns carbed bikes because he likes to mess with them.  They do have their advantages.

Mark

[malik]

What's the difference between our Heron heads & those on the Repco Brabhams. They, I believe, had a fair amount of oomph. (Other than being a totally different animal).

[oldbike54]

What's the difference between our Heron heads & those on the Repco Brabhams. They, I believe, had a fair amount of oomph. (Other than being a totally different animal).

 Mostly because the Heron heads used in several racing engines have far superior port sizes and shapes . The Guzzi head is really limited .

 Dusty

[Beowulf]

Man i can already tell this is going to be entertaining. Im gonna see where this takes me.

[oldbike54]

 Guessing bankruptcy trying to chase down 4 HP 

 Dusty

[sign216]

In the MG_750 group, on the Files page, under Dyno, there are almost a dozen dynographs of Guzzi 750 bikes w big bore kits.  Mostly w other mods too.

  https://groups.io/g/Moto-Guzzi-750

It's not about getting more hp.  It's about working on your bike, making it better and better.  This hobby isn't all about $.  And it's not all rational either.

Joe

[oldbike54]

In the MG_750 group, on the Files page, under Dyno, there are almost a dozen dynographs of Guzzi 750 bikes w big bore kits.  Mostly w other mods too.

  https://groups.io/g/Moto-Guzzi-750

It's not about getting more hp.  It's about working on your bike, making it better and better.  This hobby isn't all about $.  And it's not all rational either.

Joe

 This all true Joe , but throwing good money after bad seems silly . Upgrade the suspension and brakes instead , you'll actually go faster in the twisties .

 Dusty

[John A]

I just want my bikes to be some of the best performing amongst their type.  Engine, suspension and the whole package.  I think Joe makes that point purty  well,  Sometimes in the dead of winter, late at night I’ll take a well running motorbike apart and do unspeakable things to it.  Most times it works and then I’ll have to update the clutch or something that rears it’s ugly head when subjected to a little more torque.  It’s a sick and twisted hobby alright but it keeps me sane, har har

[SmithSwede]

I agree with Dusty.   I just don’t grok this project at all.   You really won’t get more than 3 to 5 horsepower.    If that. 

Meaning in a comparative sense, you can get smoked by some high school kid on a clapped out Suzuki SV-650.   A good rider on a Kawasaki 300 Ninja might edge you out. 

I’d leave the engine alone.  Save the $ and just ride the thing.   It’s a highly enjoyable bike, but you have to accept it for what it is. 

Or spend $ on the Guzzi, but on better brakes, suspension, sticky tires.   Etc.

If you just have to have more juice, buy a used bike with a more powerful engine.     

That being said.   To each his own.  Whatever trips your trigger.   It’s your money, not mine.   Best of luck.   Keep us posted. 

Etc.  etc. 

[Turin]

You could find a decent Centauro for what this might end up costing. There is nothing like twisting the throttle in anger on a hi-cam guzzi. 
I get chasing windmills,  I spent 5 years and a lot of coin putting together a 1987 lemans se.
Please start a thread if you go ahead with it.

[Roebling3]

Good tires, suspension frt. & rear, better brakes and several track days. You'll feel the changes immediately and be a better, safer rider.  R3~

[Chuck in Indiana]

Anyone know the realistic difference in power 4 valves vs 2 would make?

A lot. The 4 valve breathes very well, indeed. 36mm carbs would be about right. See Martin's threads on his. You will have a few issues, one of which is finding good 4V heads. See his thread on how to put it together. $ of course. You'll be amazed at the difference.

[sign216]

Beowulf and John,

Pay no attention to the kill-joys that find no pleasure in turning a wrench.

As Donald Sutherland (Oddball) said in Kelly's Heroes; "stop it with them negative waves."

Joe

[Kev m]

I generally fall on the killjoy side of this.

But joy is joy and if this is your blitz I've done dumber things....

I would think the EASIEST route would be to find a donor bike (something tired or busted) for the easy but necessary bits:

1. Manifolds/linkage (there's a bit of linkage necessary to run dual carburetors.

2. Throttle assembly (you might get away with the old one but you'll need some sort of choke assembly - not sure what the pre-efi smallblocks used).

3. Fuel tank w/ petcock - unless you have a source to weld up something to the fuel pump plate or tap the OEM tank. Actually I'm thinking the location of the fuel pump plate would be a lousy starting point so maybe you can tap and install the petcock further back on the metal tank. Unless you go with dual taps I think you're leaving more unusable fuel than you want.

4. How are you going to power and time the ignition? Are you going to run the ECM in open-loop and try to preserve the ABS? If you do that I wonder what the TC will do?

I still don't get it.

I mean if you want to do the cc kit and keep it EFI - go for it.

But keep us posted what you do, could be interesting.

[Beowulf]

Here's what im thinking. After reading i think the performance specs i think an sv 650 top speed is 124. I have believe it or not pushed to 110 with a better fuel map. I know the suzuki will reach it faster. But for the life of me i don't understand how a 4 valve carbed bike with weighing in at 420 wouldn't be competitive.

From reading i think 60 hp is more than possible. If you compare this bike to triumph retro offerings and kawasaki with their 800, the 883 Harley the 650 Royal enfield take into account weight differences the Guzzi is mighty competitive. I don't expect it blow a crotch rocket off the road. Im not looking to end up a spec of goo at 200 mph. But all things considered i don't think the v7 is underpowered. There are a considerable amount of bikes the v7 Will hold up against if not completely outdo. I think comparing a v7 to crotch rocket speeds is a bit like saying you shouldn't zoop up that 60's mustang because it will never be as fast as a bugatti.

Now im willing to admit i may appear a little unhinged. But i think bringing out this bikes full potential would be fun and respective to its class of classic cafe retro cruiser type bikes not a waste of time. Further thoughts? I realize i have no real math to back this up yet. If anyone got anything enlightening id love to see it. Thanks for all the feedback.

[Kev m]

Here's what im thinking. After reading i think the performance specs i think an sv 650 top speed is 124. I have believe it or not pushed to 110 with a better fuel map. I know the suzuki will reach it faster. But for the life of me i don't understand how a 4 valve carbed bike with weighing in at 420 wouldn't be competitive.

From reading i think 60 hp is more than possible. If you compare this bike to triumph retro offerings and kawasaki with their 800, the 883 Harley the 650 Royal enfield take into account weight differences the Guzzi is mighty competitive. I don't expect it blow a crotch rocket off the road. Im not looking to end up a spec of goo at 200 mph. But all things considered i don't think the v7 is underpowered. There are a considerable amount of bikes the v7 Will hold up against if not completely outdo. I think comparing a v7 to crotch rocket speeds is a bit like saying you shouldn't zoop up that 60's mustang because it will never be as fast as a bugatti.

Now im willing to admit i may appear a little unhinged. But i think bringing out this bikes full potential would be fun and respective to its class of classic cafe retro cruiser type bikes not a waste of time. Further thoughts? I realize i have no real math to back this up yet. If anyone got anything enlightening id love to see it. Thanks for all the feedback.

I almost get the impression you think carburetors would offer a performance advantage in this process?

I mean, Todd already has the answers at what he can get from the kit right? I haven't checked in a while but did he also do a 4V version of the kit? If so you have the numbers.

I just don't get why you want to ditch the EFI to achieve it?

IF the limiting factor is available flow from the single throttle body, then perhaps the answer is the dual throttle body system off the slightly earlier models, but the carbs won't get you more hp.

[Beowulf]

I don't think carbs would offer an advantage. I think its one less component to hook up to a computer. For me it just be easier to understand than fuel injection. I get the basic principles of both carbs are less mysterious to me.

Considering the retro appeal of the bike im also tempted to use carbs. I honestly prefer the look and yes im very shallow.

Sign216 I think we are like minded in the overall goal. It's not about beating other bikes so much as its for the fun and optimizing what i have.

Id rather pull up on my hot to trot antiquated carbed guzzi snapping my red suspenders explaining how i got to 150000 miles and on my second rebuild than buying a 200 hp Ducati.

A foolish romantic you might say? Yes....But than again there isn't a single member on this board who can't be accused of such motivations. After all you bought a guzzi.

[Kev m]

I don't think carbs would offer an advantage. I think its one less component to hook up to a computer. For me it just be easier to understand than fuel injection. I get the basic principles of both carbs are less mysterious to me.

Considering the retro appeal of the bike im also tempted to use carbs. I honestly prefer the look and yes im very shallow.

Hey You do You Boo - I get following your own bliss.

That said, you sure will be complicating things (see my number list earlier) in an attempt to simplify things.

And you don't give yourself enough credit. Anyone who understands how to tune a carb should be able to easily understand EFI.

But whatever blows your hair back... have fun.

[Kiwi Dave]

How about replacing the throttle bodies with ones of a later model Triumph?  They're designed to look like carbs, but ain't.