Does my V7 suffer from fuelling issues?

[vitsiozo]

Hi, a newbie in this forum and in need of some advice.

6 months ago I purchased a V7 Special 2013 model. The bike has only been used in fair weather by the previous owner, so has only had 3,000 km on the clock. The only performance modification that came with the bike was a pair of (admittedly beautiful) Agostini silencers.

The bike has performed faultlessly in all the rides I have had up to now, except for the following two occasions:

The first time, about 10 minutes into a city ride with lots of starting and stopping at traffic lights, the bike suddenly started to stutter, would not idle correctly and on many occasions would feel as if the engine would die if I did not work on the throttle quite a lot. The issue lasted for the whole duration of that specific ride, even when the engine was fully warmed up.

The second issue took place a couple of days ago and was even stranger. I wanted to take her for a ride and as I started her up from cold the bike just revved up on it's own and stayed at around 4000 - 5000 rpms without me touching the throttle at all. That kind of scared me as I have never experienced this with any bike in the past. I killed the engine and a few minutes later tried again to start her up and got the same thing again, the bike revved all the way up to 4000 RPM and it just stayed there, never wanting to come back to idle speed. I played around with the throttle a bit to see if it was stuck or something, but it was not, the bike just revved on and on at that kind of level. After trying one more time and having the same result I gave up.

The next day when I started the bike up again, the issue was gone and the bike idled with no issues... 

Now the only thing I can think of that the two situations had in common was that those two days there was lots of humidity in the atmosphere (raining) and the temperature was very low (around 6 - 7 Degrees Celsius). I have seen in this forum people talk about fuelling issues with their V7 and I am just wondering if this is what I am looking at. I have read that Moto Guzzi has issued some updates to the fuelling map for these bikes. I am quite confident that the previous owner has not updated any maps on the bike (he did not mention anything on that), but do you think that the original map that the bike came with could result in behaviour like the one described above? Would a relatively cold external temperature cause the bike to rev up to 4000 - 5000 RPM and just sit there?

If yes, then I guess I know where to start looking as I just need to fix the mapping of the bike. Otherwise if it points to a mechanical failure, where do I start looking?

Any advice is much appreciated.

Vitsiozo

[guzzisteve]

That would be the 1st gen  Single throttle body.  When they came out you had to start it and wait exactly 2 min for it to warm.  They got an update from stock #3523V702 map to 352BV738    all but the Special . Later all got it updated.
It idles 1350rpm +or- and if you give it gas before 2min it can act funny.
This is my notes & experience working for the dealership here then.

With the Ago pipes you may need some xtra fueling.  A forum member here (Beetle) has maps made for your bike.

You need to find out what is in the ECU now and proceed forward for a tune-up or something more. 

[Off @ 90]

Have not got any idea of what causes 4000 rpm idle. My 2017 Stornello Mk2 started off throttle ie downhill stalling after being quite well behaved . I disconnected O2 sensors just to see if it made a difference. There seemed a slight improvement in stalling issue but then this problem seemed to worsen. I gave the bike a long highway ride 1000km  going down  to Burt Munro Challenge for first 100 km stalling issue persisted then pulling into Springs Junction after 200 kms problem gone completely no stalling issues at all and has been normal  since 2000kms done . Have since re connected O2 sensors and no change all running normally. The only abnormal thing I found was oil in air box probably 200ml due to previous owner overfilling.
1.8 litre seems good not 2 litre. The oil had coated the intakes whether this had caused stalling issues have no idea. That long fast run all above 4000rpm definitely fixed problem like night and day.

[Huzo]

You didn’t have a sticking butterfly did you ?
What is the mechanism that opens and closes it ?

[beetle]

I’ve seen the 4000 RPM on cold start on at least two V7II’s, including one Stornello. Can’t explain it. I can only assume that some sensor or control is stuck in an incorrect state. Shutting it off and leaving it for an indeterminate period of time seems to fix it. I have no data on frequency.

I’m aware of the downhill stalling. It doesn’t affect every 1TB V7. I suspect it’s a throttle issue. They’re not RBW, Huzo. The MIUG3 is a piece of crap.

[malik]

Some of this sounds very similar to the issue I once had with the 2014 Special. If the engine oil has ever been filled to the full 2L specified, excess oil will have pooled in the airbox through the breathing system, and from there onto the air filter and down the manifold tube into the throttle body. The result is all sorts of erratic running, especially bad in city traffic.

The fix was:- Cleaning up the oil in the airbox, paper towels work, and down the manifold hole, right into the throttle body. Finish off with the paper towels dampened with throttle body cleaner, until the towels come out clean. Replace the air filter, it is likely wet with oil and dust. (Use only the standard paper filters, the oiled ones don't work so well).
Then re-set the ECU. If you have Guzzidiag, re-set the TPS & the auto learning. Otherwise, try removing the negative terminal for a few minutes, before reconnecting it (wire brushing the terminal & smearing with Vaseline is always a good idea).

When you change the engine oil, don't put the full 2L in. My bike is happy with 1.9, but I've come across others that are happy with 1.8L or even 1.7L. You find your bike's level by trial & error. Put your oil in. After a decent long run, check the bottom of the airbox for the presence of oil. Some misting is OK, but pooling is too much.

The ECU's "target idle" in mine is set at 1,370rpm. I had a few successive factory maps (at one time they were coming out thick & fast), but the beetle maps work best. Get them & the instructions on Www.griso.org. Definitely solved the cold start issue satisfactorily. These bikes don't have a choke or fast idle lever, the choke function is built into the ECU.

It's worth trying a new set of throttle cables. Then you eliminate another possible problem. I keep a spare set handy, just in case.

FWIW, when I put the bike back together after replacing the clutch, I took the opportunity to replace the dirty, rusted, use-abused headers with a new set from Agostini. They used to come in stainless, or black painted stainless, as well as (for a short time only, titanium). These are single-walled and are fatter. With the Arrow mufflers (supplied by Moto Guzzi for the early Racers - had trouble fitting the Mistals on the new headers) and the unchanged beetle map, it has never run better. A smoother, but still lumpy, idle & no popping on overrun at all.

Note that when I had the bike apart, I found a thickish coating of dust-impregnated oil on the insides of the manifold south of the throttle body. Although it didn't seem to affect the running, I cleaned it up anyway.





A photo or two is always good.

[Huzo]

I’m drifting towards the thinking that..
“Why would you want anything more..” Twin discs up front, polished rims, stainless headers and that’d be it.
Certainly nice lines and that paint scheme is timeless in it’s appeal.
Love the seat too.
A set of badges from King of Fleece would grace that tank beautifully.

[Kiwi_Roy]

1.8 litre seems good not 2 litre. The oil had coated the intakes whether this had caused stalling issues have no idea. That long fast run all above 4000rpm definitely fixed problem like night and day.

The Italian tune-up did the trick lol

[Off @ 90]

Yep a good long run and stalling problem gone can't explain it. I did drain oil out air box and cleaned TB and Y intake as best as possible before the run south. Only getting some misting now a few drops at most. Maybe the oil fouled a sensor in TB and it cleared  with a 200 km highway run. I'm not complaining mysterious though Mk2 fuelling !
Another factor was the idle /stalling problem first happened after some gentle off road riding  and wondering if the oil in air box sloshed  up into TB going over a few ruts etc ???
 My experience with the V7 Mk2 now is check your air box for oil at regular intervals and keep drive shaft splines greased otherwise it's bullet proof.

[vitsiozo]

Thank you for the replies.

I have opened and inspected the air filter box. There was only a thin trace of oil at the bottom of the box, nothing I would consider as in danger of flooding the throttle body. The air filter was dry and super clean, as I mentioned the bike has only seen 3,000 km, most of it in fair weather. I doubt that oil entering the Throttle body might be causing the two issues I have had with the bike, as If this was the case I think I would see the problem persisting during the next days.

I will be looking at fuelling next. I am ordering the wires needed to plug my bike to a laptop and check what version of ECU map is running at the moment. I still don't think that fuelling might explain the idling at over 4,000 rpm when starting from cold, but as Beetle mentioned, I hope this was an odd occurrence of a sensor going wild.

Beetle do you have any maps for a 2013 V7 special with the Agostini pipes fitted as you can see in image below? I am using these with db killers fitted.

[mhershon]

Does it appear to anyone else that vitsiozo's throttle cables are mis-routed? I have the same bike and my cables don't reach as far forward as they pass around the fork tube. Vitisozo, were your bars turned to the left when the rpm hung so high?

[vitsiozo]

Hmm, if I remember correctly the bars were straight when the bike suffered from idling at too high RPMs. It is worth checking the cable routing though. I recently had a fork specialist fit a pair of Matris springs and preload adjusters to the front. I wonder if when they put back the instrument panel the cables were routed differently to what they were before.

[beetle]

Does it appear to anyone else that vitsiozo's throttle cables are mis-routed? I have the same bike and my cables don't reach as far forward as they pass around the fork tube. Vitisozo, were your bars turned to the left when the rpm hung so high?

They appear to be routed similar to Mal's.  I know he wouldn't get that wrong, so I don't think that's an issue.

[beetle]

Beetle do you have any maps for a 2013 V7 special with the Agostini pipes fitted as you can see in image below? I am using these with db killers fitted.

Sure do.   www.griso.org

[malik]

Yes, they look to be routed similarly, but it's worth checking. The only real way to check the health of the cables is to remove them. A broken strand of the wire can cause sticking. Also, just in case, a blast of contact cleaner on the rev sensor connector is simple insurance. (Note - the rev sensor o-ring seals better with a smear of Threebond 1211.

Muzz, badges not necessary really, I know what I'm riding. But the stripes on the Bagster bra have faded over time, I must get around to finding a stain to refresh the orange tone. Patina is one thing, but matching up the Orange would be nice. The tank underneath is pristine.