Author Topic: V7II first service (Read 6378 times)

Air-Cooled · « **on:** March 22, 2020, 08:21:44 PM »

I just hit 600 miles, and so started my first service. Changed the oil with just a hair under 2 liters of Motul 7100 10w60. Did the recommended, rode it 10 miles til "warm" and checked the dipstick. It read about 1/8" below top line. OK for me. I had the valves adjusted by a local guy who works on nothing but Italian bikes. (The dealership here is too new for me to trust them). Yes, I know, I could have done it myself, but I wanted to go with someone experiences in how tight to make the valve nuts. I asked him if we should re-torque the head bolts at this time, and he said "no, not on this bike." He also told me that the V7II bikes, and all the small block Guzzis he services seem to have really bad looking oil if it is changed at the regular service intervals. He attributed this, in part to the low oil volume these bikes have (2 liters), and mentioned the oil sump spacer that I know a lot of guys here have installed to increase oil capacity by one full liter. If not using the spacer, he recommended changing my oil, at very minimum, every 3,000 miles. Seemed like good advice to me. You guys agree?

Dave Swanson · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2020, 09:16:40 PM »

I believe the change interval advice is sound. I have always thought that motorcycle oil lives a harder life than in an automobile. I added a sump spacer for peace of mind. There are high mileage V7s out there without the spacer doing just fine though.

Before the substandard spark plug caps start acting up perform a preemptive attack by replacing them with a NGK phenolic cap. This will require changing the spark plug to the type with the threaded top. It is a cheap modification and will prevent grief in the future.

Cap - NGK XD05F
Plug - NGK CPR8EA-9

Kev m · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2020, 09:26:11 PM »

He's full of shit.

1. You DO retorque the heads on all the heron had models which includes the V7II.

2. You can't tell shit about oil just by looking at it. I mean if it smells seriously fuel contaminated or burnt maybe, but if it's just dark that doesn't tell him anything.

I've got the sump spacer on my MKI and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy, but I have no plans to add one to my III and I'm not gonna short the intervals unnecessarily.

Air-Cooled · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2020, 11:14:33 PM »

As bad as the owner's manual is, I think it does say to re-torque the heads at 600 miles. Something like "head screw." Oh well, they are not torqued! I'll get it done next oil change, and I'll do it at 3,000 miles. The fellow did say the oil was like mud, and only 1000cc on that other bike.

Dave Swanson · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2020, 06:13:14 AM »

Being full of ca-ca might be a bit strong

, but yes, the head bolts and nuts should be re-torqued.

I always change the oil at a frequency I am comfortable with. If you choose to change it sooner than necessary, or by the book it will be OK.

pyoungbl · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2020, 07:00:06 AM »

Oh, the joy of an oil thread. I'd recommend sending an oil sample out for analysis rather than listening to all the well meaning advice you get from mechanics, friends, or internet commandos. I think you will be surprised at the result. I use Blackstone Labs
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/?session-id=osqfxdqxtu3fge45zzehv23b&timeout=20&bslauth&urlbase=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blackstone-labs.net%2FBstone%2F%28S%28osqfxdqxtu3fge45zzehv23b%29%29%2F

After a couple analysis reports you will have a good idea of when to change your oil so you really don't need to send in a sample of every single oil change.

I had a sump extender on my small block. Note the past tense. That extra liter of capacity comes with reduced ground clearance and I determined that I really did not need the extra capacity. My full synthetic oil does just fine with only 2 liters capacity.

Kev m · « **Reply #6 on:** March 23, 2020, 07:01:01 AM »

I hold professionals to a higher standard than not knowing a critical service like head retorque is necessary so yeah I'm a little harsh.

It also then makes me question anything else that comes out of their mouths.

I have to admit I'm practically a religious believer in the performance of synthetic fluids and modern additive packages.

Hell DYNO oil is a 5k ok change recommendation on HARLEYS these days. Let that one sink in. I've got a buddy that's past 265k in an 06 Sporty using Harley Synth and 5k intervals. He's done some lab tests too, always good.

I've seen plenty of other lab tests that make me feel fine about it.

But usage and conditions do vary so if there's a question, spend the $20 and find out for yourself. See if YOUR usage and ambient conditions don't equal the vast majority.

Sure you can "save that money" and just change it early, that in theory makes some sense. But the counter argument is by spending it you might learn to save your money and time.

Or maybe it's not really about money anyway, but just learning about what results from your operating conditions.

Mud? From a synth, in 5k? Without serious abuse? Color me skeptical even without blowing it on in the head torque question.

YMMV, do what makes this feel warm and fuzzy, but don't trust that guy.

Air-Cooled · « **Reply #7 on:** March 23, 2020, 07:08:58 AM »

He is a well known Italian bike mechanic in our area (Phoenix), and I DID ask him about re-torqueing the heads. But I agree, if the manual says to do it, it should be done.

Kev m · « **Reply #8 on:** March 23, 2020, 07:15:01 AM »

Quote from: Air-Cooled on March 23, 2020, 07:08:58 AM

He is a well known Italian bike mechanic in our area (Phoenix), and I DID ask him about re-torqueing the heads. But I agree, if the manual says to do it, it should be done.

Understood.

And I will admit that Phoenix summers are WAY harder in I'll than anything that happens around here. So I get that.

Cam3512 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 23, 2020, 07:15:53 AM »

Quote from: Air-Cooled on March 23, 2020, 07:08:58 AM

He is a well known Italian bike mechanic in our area (Phoenix), and I DID ask him about re-torqueing the heads. But I agree, if the manual says to do it, it should be done.

ONLY at first service, then never again.

And even with the sump spacer, any more than 2.5 liters gets puked out into the airbox.

sib · « **Reply #10 on:** March 23, 2020, 08:25:09 AM »

Quote from: Air-Cooled on March 22, 2020, 11:14:33 PM

As bad as the owner's manual is, I think it does say to re-torque the heads at 600 miles. Something like "head screw." Oh well, they are not torqued! I'll get it done next oil change, and I'll do it at 3,000 miles. The fellow did say the oil was like mud, and only 1000cc on that other bike.

I wouldn't wait until 3000 mi. By then, you might very well have developed gasket failure and leaks. There's a reason why it's recommended at 600 mi.

mechanicsavant · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2020, 08:25:46 AM »

And don’t forget the screen/filter that hides in the trans. Drain hole mine had quite a bit of case sealant in it . It looked like RTV or something similar.

Siamese · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2020, 09:04:12 AM »

Ditto on the don't wait recommendation for re-torquing the head bolts. Is it ABSOLUTELY necessary? I don't know. But, would I do it on my bike?
Definitely. Rolling down a country road, it's just me and my thoughts, and I don't want my thoughts wandering to whether I did the proper maintenance on my ride.

You mentioned that the only reason you didn't do the valves yourself is because you weren't sure how much to torque the nuts on the rockers. I get that, if you haven't done a few valve adjustments on other engines.

Now that your valves are adjusted (albeit by a guy who messed up on the re-torquing), re-torquing the head bolts is going to be the easy part. You could take it back to Bozo to do it at no charge, but maybe he isn't a good as people say. A torque wrench doesn't have to be expensive, so why not go get one? Get those valve covers off, and get to twisting. It's an easier job than adjusting the valves. You don't have to concern yourself with rotating the engine to close the valves.

BUT...would it be a bad idea to check his work on the valves (no need to loosen the nuts)? Do that, and next time you'll already be up to speed on the procedure.

Kev m · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2020, 09:12:46 AM »

In theory you need to recheck valves after a retorque as compressing the gasket would move the head and rockers down closer to the pushrods.

Cam3512 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2020, 10:26:37 AM »

Quote from: Kev m on March 23, 2020, 09:12:46 AM

In theory you need to recheck valves after a retorque as compressing the gasket would move the head and rockers down closer to the pushrods.

Correct. When I do it annually on my old big blocks I find TDC for the side I'm working on. Then re-torque and adjust valve lash.

And remember, the engine should be stone cold BEFORE doing this. Let it sit overnight.

kingoffleece · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2020, 10:35:06 AM »

Your tech may be confused with the II and III, which, IIRC, does not require checking the head bolts at service.

Kev m · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2020, 10:41:34 AM »

Quote from: kingoffleece on March 23, 2020, 10:35:06 AM

Your tech may be confused with the II and III, which, IIRC, does not require checking the head bolts at service.

Yeah, though there's a pretty big difference between the II (last Heron head) and III (first Hemi heads). I mean, visually too.

kingoffleece · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2020, 10:47:05 AM »

Yep. I'm aware.

Kev m · « **Reply #18 on:** March 23, 2020, 11:39:20 AM »

Quote from: kingoffleece on March 23, 2020, 10:47:05 AM

Yep. I'm aware.

I'm just saying that if you work for or are a dealer that's not something you should be easily confused about.

pyoungbl · « **Reply #19 on:** March 23, 2020, 12:05:27 PM »

A thought, OP stated that the tech was very familiar with Italian motorcycles. Given the relative market penetration I bet that means he works on Ducks and every so often he might see a Guzzi. Until just the past few years the V7 was not a huge seller (in a marque that never sold anything in volume) so it's easy to see why he was wrong about the head torque issue for Heron head small blocks. Nevertheless, if you own a V7 and have the owner's manual it would be wise to at least look up the recommended services and pass that info on to the tech. Just saying....

Peter Y.

malik · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2020, 03:04:37 PM »

Air-Cooled, you said you filled the engine to within a smidgin of the 2L, so do keep an eye on the bottom of the airbox for any oil overflow. Every bike is just a little different, and each of pukes a little into the airbox at a different stage. My 1TB takes 1.9L without puking, but I've read of others that need a little less. If you get oil there, start taking out oil, say 50ml at a time, to ascertain the level your bike is happiest with. Oil in the airbox can foul the filter & the throttle body, impeding smooth running. Not a good look.

Bulldog9 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 23, 2020, 03:11:26 PM »

Quote from: Air-Cooled on March 22, 2020, 08:21:44 PM

I just hit 600 miles, and so started my first service. Changed the oil with just a hair under 2 liters of Motul 7100 10w60. Did the recommended, rode it 10 miles til "warm" and checked the dipstick. It read about 1/8" below top line. OK for me. I had the valves adjusted by a local guy who works on nothing but Italian bikes. (The dealership here is too new for me to trust them). Yes, I know, I could have done it myself, but I wanted to go with someone experiences in how tight to make the valve nuts. I asked him if we should re-torque the head bolts at this time, and he said "no, not on this bike." He also told me that the V7II bikes, and all the small block Guzzis he services seem to have really bad looking oil if it is changed at the regular service intervals. He attributed this, in part to the low oil volume these bikes have (2 liters), and mentioned the oil sump spacer that I know a lot of guys here have installed to increase oil capacity by one full liter. If not using the spacer, he recommended changing my oil, at very minimum, every 3,000 miles. Seemed like good advice to me. You guys agree?

Follow the Manual...... The V7II DOES need a head re-torque at first service, and not again. It is the III and following that do not.

I call baloney on the oil change interval. If you use the right oil (10W/60 full synthetic) you are fine. My oil is just about at 6K and looks and smells fine. The last 2K have been mostly commuting. The sump spacer is not a BAD thing unless clearance is a concern, but is not a necessary thing. I spend my time between 3 bikes and usually go 5-6K on each, so just do an annual oil change unless I have a long trip planned.

FWIW, 1st service also calls for transmission and rear diff oil changes as well. Be sure to check the screen in the transmission. Mine had some spooge/goo and what looked like bits of silicone sealant in it.

Kev m · « **Reply #22 on:** March 23, 2020, 03:35:05 PM »

Quote from: pyoungbl on March 23, 2020, 12:05:27 PM

A thought, OP stated that the tech was very familiar with Italian motorcycles. Given the relative market penetration I bet that means he works on Ducks and every so often he might see a Guzzi. Until just the past few years the V7 was not a huge seller (in a marque that never sold anything in volume) so it's easy to see why he was wrong about the head torque issue for Heron head small blocks. Nevertheless, if you own a V7 and have the owner's manual it would be wise to at least look up the recommended services and pass that info on to the tech. Just saying....

Peter Y.

We must have very different perceptions at what constitutes a professional mechanic then. How does someone work on something or give a customer a technical answer for something they don't know well and fail to check the OEM data? I mean just check the maintenance schedule, that's all it would take right?

Kev m · « **Reply #23 on:** March 23, 2020, 06:00:21 PM »

Quote from: Cam3512 on March 23, 2020, 05:51:02 PM

My guess it's probably Roland at Spare Parts. He's a very competent mechanic, but not necessarily current on the newer stuff. They haven't been a dealer for a very long time. If that's the case, cut him some slack.

You're confusing threads man, this guy is in Phoenix, AZ, the guy with the V9 is in Philly.

Cam3512 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 23, 2020, 06:04:03 PM »

Oh yeah, I'm drinking to kill the bug! I'll pass it onto the tank slapper.

Kev m · « **Reply #25 on:** March 23, 2020, 06:19:23 PM »

Quote from: Cam3512 on March 23, 2020, 06:04:03 PM

Oh yeah, I'm drinking to kill the bug! I'll pass it onto the tank slapper.

I told Jenn that was the case minutes ago lol.

Air-Cooled · « **Reply #26 on:** March 23, 2020, 08:50:30 PM »

Lots of excellent replies! Yes, I could easily torque the head bolts myself now — there are five I believe? But then I would have to do the valves after that, or at least check them. I think I will probably do the whole damn thing myself, though I still have concerns about How tight to torque the valve nuts. And also, thanks for the reminder to do it with the bike stone cold. The guy who did the valve adjustment was Tom Hull. Real nice fellow who seems to know a lot about Ducatis and Guzzis. Very nice guy too. He used to work for his father at Dave's Cycle Service, until they closed. He has raced at Laguna Seca and many other places and always has a few bikes from customers in his garage. From the videos I've seen on valve adjustment, they say don't over-tighten the nuts as this will break the part off. I'll be doing some guess work on this.

Kev m · « **Reply #27 on:** March 23, 2020, 09:24:11 PM »

A torque value on such is kinda silly. There's no real way for you to use a torque wrench while still holding the adjuster in spec, well without special tools.

I'd generally describe it as a grunt or snug.

You turn the nut till you feel resistance, then give an extra grunt, maybe 1/8 of a turn.

Air-Cooled · « **Reply #28 on:** March 23, 2020, 09:29:28 PM »

Sounds good. On the head torquing, do you need to torque the central bolt or just the other four?

Kev m · « **Reply #29 on:** March 23, 2020, 09:35:52 PM »

Quote from: Air-Cooled on March 23, 2020, 09:29:28 PM

Sounds good. On the head torquing, do you need to torque the central bolt or just the other four?

Everything.

Crack em all off, then use a crossing pattern.

I feel like I did the central one first (loosen) and last (tighten) but I'd have to check.

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Author Topic: V7II first service (Read 6378 times)