Ducati,looking for wear, none found

[Rough Edge racing]

 That would be my 1996 900 Monster...I bought it used about 4 years ago. The previous owner has dolled it up a bit but said he bought from a hillbilly who did horrible things to the bike...At some point the original speedo was replaced by a speedo and tach pod ,so I have no idea of the true mileage...
 So...I always hear  the valve guides wear quickly...While tuning the carbs I inspect plugs closely with an otoscope...The rear cylinder spark plug always has a slight bit of oil on the end of the plug screw shell, but the engine doesn't use oil....
  I pulled the tank and battery to access the rear head....remove the intake rocker, and grab a hold of the intake valve expecting a lot of wobble...Zero wobble in any direction with the valve near full open....Head shows no signs of previous removal....Perhaps valve guide wear is just more internet stories....

[Lannis]

Perhaps the "urban legend" in this case was the "horrible things" that the previous hillbilly owner had supposedly done?

You know how human males are about (1) Women they've been with (2) Fish they have caught and (3) How fast their motorcycle will go.  They'll lie like big dogs even when the truth would do better.

Maybe it really spent a gently-run life, with chicken-strips erased with a belt sander, and instead of the 20,000 furiously-thrashed miles a year that was claimed, it was only used to go to church on sunny Sundays?

Could be true ....

Lannis

[clubman]

I rode a '95 SS 900 for 38K and had zero major problems with it. If you use a good quality synthetic in it and don't redline in every gear every time you get on it, it'll go a lot further between valve shim replacements. DO pay attention to timing belt age and cond., they're not that expensive unless you break one. I currently have a '00 900M (first year with F.I.) with 30K . It's faster and handles better than my old SS. All of these 2 valve 900's seem to be rough on batteries. There is no direct replacement AGM and if you get 18 months out of a wet cell you're doing about average. I have a BikeMaster Blue Tru Gel in mine that is approaching 2 y.o. , but I'm told they aren't currently available. There are tons of used parts on Ebay but some OEM stuff is getting difficult to get. Good comfortable bikes that can usually be bought for cheap.

[mondtster]

I wonder if the "horrible things" that were done were primarily cosmetic and perhaps a bit of neglect?

It sounds a lot like a DRZ400 I had a few years ago. I was the fourth owner of it in 10 years and mileage was unknown for a similar reason to yours. I never knew owner #1 but it sounded like he did a bunch of mods to the bike, all of which were terrible. I knew owner #3 pretty well and he reversed most of the mods that the first guy did. It was pretty apparent to me that owner #1 was a young guy and this was probably his first bike and the first thing he ever worked on because the work he did that was left on it was terrible. But the bike ran great and I could never ever find a mechanical problem with it whenever I serviced it. I went looking for problems and was never successful in finding any; all I had to do was finish reversing and/or correcting what owner #1 had started.

As far as the internet rumors about certain bikes being needy or all of them having certain problems, I usually dismiss them. Either I'm one of the most lucky people in the world or most everyone else blows minor problems out of proportion because I've never really had anywhere near the trouble with the vehicles I've owned that others have claimed to have. I've probably jinxed myself now though and will have nothing but problems with my vehicles...

[Lannis]

As far as the internet rumors about certain bikes being needy or all of them having certain problems, I usually dismiss them. Either I'm one of the most lucky people in the world or most everyone else blows minor problems out of proportion because I've never really had anywhere near the trouble with the vehicles I've owned that others have claimed to have. I've probably jinxed myself now though and will have nothing but problems with my vehicles...

Some of them are real, though. 

The  Yamaha TX750 just about put Yamaha out of business, if such a thing were possible.   A poor oiling system and too many chains thrashing around blew almost every engine they built.

Moto Guzzi's 8 valve engines from 2008 to 2012 were built with a poorly executed cam follower, which destroyed itself and the engine too if not replaced within a few thousand miles of new.   ALL of them!

BSA 650 twins with the original Lucas "4CA" points holed their pistons regularly due to a rogue spark from points bounce, until Lucas replaced them with a better design.

So they weren't all legends ....

Lannis

[PhilB]

Those early Monsters were very solid machines.  The valve guide wear was a real issue for some of them, but it didn't apply to all of them.
My first M900 Monster was a 1993 -- one of the first 1000 ever built.  I rode that bike for 24 years and put 265K miles on it.
And it still had the original valve guides.  I had to replace the rubber valve guide seals every 40 to 60K, but the engine was bulletproof.
It got taken out by a hit-and-run driver in 2017; otherwise I'd still be riding it, and would be turning over 300K this year.

PhilB

[SmithSwede]

I was just going to mention PhilB and his semi-famous bulletproof Ducati, but the original popped up!

Phil, I still find your story heartbreaking.    To put that kind of mileage on a bike, and hope to do even more—only to be taken out by some dim wit pulling out of a McDonald’s!   

Argh. 

Are you still riding your other M900?

[Tusayan]

All of these 2 valve 900's seem to be rough on batteries. There is no direct replacement AGM

I use Motobatt’s MB16AU on mine, it’s designed as a direct replacement and isn’t too expensive.

http://www.motobatt.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=86&year=92-96&cc=900&manufacturer_id=30&category_id=63&model_id=191

Re valve guides on the first belt drive 900SSs, they would go about 12K miles before starting to smoke but over the course of several material changes the issue was solved by the mid-90s.

[MLR]

I have a 95 900SS CR with 60,000 miles on it that I bought new. I had to replace the guides at around 30,000 miles. It is currently in a million pieces undergoing an involuntary restoration that is proceeding at a glacial pace. I pulled the engine after the threads for one of the cylinder head studs stripped in the case. After further inspection I discovered the oil galley plug in the crank had backed out and was rubbing on the case and there were several gears in the tranny flaking apart. Then I looked at the frame up by the steering head and found cracks.

[MLR]

I guess I used to ride it hard but not ridiculously so. I love the bike and have never ridden anything with such an intense mechanical presence and soul. Figured I might as well paint the motor while i have it apart and it is taking me forever because I only work on it a little bit here and there when I have time.

[Rough Edge racing]

Those early Monsters were very solid machines.  The valve guide wear was a real issue for some of them, but it didn't apply to all of them.
My first M900 Monster was a 1993 -- one of the first 1000 ever built.  I rode that bike for 24 years and put 265K miles on it.
And it still had the original valve guides.  I had to replace the rubber valve guide seals every 40 to 60K, but the engine was bulletproof.
It got taken out by a hit-and-run driver in 2017; otherwise I'd still be riding it, and would be turning over 300K this year.

PhilB. 

Can the seal be replaced without removing the valve,as in removing the head?

[PhilB]

Can the seal be replaced without removing the valve,as in removing the head?

Yes, I believe so.  I didn't do it myself; I had my mechanic at the dealer handle it for 20 years.   He was good, and trustworthy.  But it wasn't very expensive to have it done, so I'm pretty sure he didn't have to pull the head.

Indeed, come to think of it, I'm sure it didn't, because after pulling the heads early on to (before 30K) fix the bad head studs, they weren't pulled off again until 116K, when they were found to have a fair bit of carbon buildup, and my mech told me to stop using premium gas, and switch to regular.

PhilB

[Tusayan]

Can the seal be replaced without removing the valve, as in removing the head?

Yes, but one reason the seals wear quickly is that the guides are worn and you are using the seal as a valve guide.

Valve guide wear was a historical problem on many types of Ducatis until the mid-90s or so. The 1970s valve spring engines were probably the worst in that regard.

[Lannis]

All of these 2 valve 900's seem to be rough on batteries.

Wonder why that would be?

There's only 3 ways to be "rough" on a battery.

1) Install it in an overheated area.  Can't imagine there's any of those on a Ducati.

2) Keep too high a charging voltage on it.   This is an easy thing to test, and an easy thing to fix, either by adding resistance to the charging circuit or installing a working regulator, which most every other bike in the world has.

3) Vibration.   There's bikes that vibrate a lot more than a Ducati that aren't "rough" on batteries.  Maybe a bit of foam.

As important as a working battery is for operation of the bike, if I had one of these (and I'd like one), I believe I'd get that sorted quick ...

Lannis

[Perazzimx14]

Yes, I believe so.  I didn't do it myself; I had my mechanic at the dealer handle it for 20 years.   He was good, and trustworthy.  But it wasn't very expensive to have it done, so I'm pretty sure he didn't have to pull the head.

Indeed, come to think of it, I'm sure it didn't, because after pulling the heads early on to (before 30K) fix the bad head studs, they weren't pulled off again until 116K, when they were found to have a fair bit of carbon buildup, and my mech told me to stop using premium gas, and switch to regular.

PhilB

Wait a minute! A Ducati with big mileage and told to use regular ordinary fuel that commoners can buy? What's next you used dino oil avalaible from the auto parts with aftermarket oil filters?

[Tusayan]

The ‘rough on batteries’ perspective probably comes from Ducati starters being under spec’d and after maybe 20K miles of wear needing a good battery to spin the engine.  On the other hand, aftermarket Ducati starters are so inexpensive that it’s hardly worth trying to stretch their life - if I recall correctly the last one I bought was $50, and seems to be virtually identical to the ‘expensive’ $100 version that I previously bought.

Some Ducatis have weak charging systems which doesn’t help either, but it’s not true for many others. 

[jpv7]

Wonder why that would be?

There's only 3 ways to be "rough" on a battery.

1) Install it in an overheated area.  Can't imagine there's any of those on a Ducati.

2) Keep too high a charging voltage on it.   This is an easy thing to test, and an easy thing to fix, either by adding resistance to the charging circuit or installing a working regulator, which most every other bike in the world has.

3) Vibration.   There's bikes that vibrate a lot more than a Ducati that aren't "rough" on batteries.  Maybe a bit of foam.

As important as a working battery is for operation of the bike, if I had one of these (and I'd like one), I believe I'd get that sorted quick ...

Lannis

Was scratching my head too...The wet Yuasa in my carbed  '97 90ss (purchased new) went almost 10 years before replacement.  Not an issue at all.

[Perazzimx14]

On the 900's at leas its not the starter or battery it s the ground cable off the starter. If you get some 4AWG weld cable and good copper ends and make new cables Ground from the starter to the frame, ground from the battery to the frame and the positive get them installed hit the starter you'll be amazed.


A word of caution on the 900ss series bikes when loosening the nut holding the terminal on be extremely caution and do not force things. It is not uncommon for this nut or stud to be corroded and will break off if torqued on with much force. Then you'll be shopping for a new starter.

[Lannis]

On the 900's at leas its not the starter or battery it s the ground cable off the starter. If you get some 4AWG weld cable and good copper ends and make new cables Ground from the starter to the frame, ground from the battery to the frame and the positive get them installed hit the starter you'll be amazed.

That's good advice on MANY different bikes.   I've done that on my MkIII Norton and on my Stelvio.   No more weak starting issues.

Lannis

[LowRyter]

I've owned my first Ducati now for 13 months, '17 939 Supersport.  I bought it with 1300 miles and it's now approaching 11k.  Best handling, safest motorcycle I've ever ridden.  The bike uses about a quart of oil every 5k miles.  It has an unusual smell upon cold start up but has used no coolant (and I was looking for a problem, found none, knock wood).  The valves aren't due until 18k miles.  Running on it's 3rd rear and 2nd front tire.

Of all my bikes, it's my favorite. I realize this a digital bike with a cat converter and 8v motor, so it's a different animal.

Other than sipping a little oil it's been a great motorcycle.  It would be dang near perfect if it had 30 more HP and electronic cruise. 

[Rough Edge racing]

Yes, but one reason the seals wear quickly is that the guides are worn and you are using the seal as a valve guide.

Valve guide wear was a historical problem on many types of Ducatis until the mid-90s or so. The 1970s valve spring engines were probably the worst in that regard.

With the intake opening rocker and shaft removed,  I removed the closing rocker shaft..But was unable to move the rocker out of the way to provide adequate room to pry up the seal...Of course there might be a trick to this......But It might be best to leave it alone
  I have a Shorai  lithium battery. It cranks a bit slow but never fails to start. The cable from the solenoid to the starter motor is long and appears undersized....A cheap fix

[huub]

Those early Monsters were very solid machines.  The valve guide wear was a real issue for some of them, but it didn't apply to all of them.
My first M900 Monster was a 1993 -- one of the first 1000 ever built.  I rode that bike for 24 years and put 265K miles on it.
And it still had the original valve guides.  I had to replace the rubber valve guide seals every 40 to 60K, but the engine was bulletproof.
It got taken out by a hit-and-run driver in 2017; otherwise I'd still be riding it, and would be turning over 300K this year.

PhilB

epic! i gave up on my cagiva elefant ( with 900 duati engine) because maintenance was killing me.
i used to do a 150 mile/day round trip with it .
mine had the valve guide issues, on a elefant working on the heads is  no fun , even doing the shims means dropping the engine.
if it would have been as reliable as your monster i would still be riding the elefant. absolutely brilliant bike, let down by the engine.

[Tusayan]

On the 900's at leas its not the starter or battery it s the ground cable off the starter. If you get some 4AWG weld cable and good copper ends and make new cables Ground from the starter to the frame, ground from the battery to the frame and the positive get them installed hit the starter you'll be amazed

I’ve done that on my most of my belt driven cam Ducatis and it helps, particularly if the terminal connections are poor, but in the end the starters either get dirty or die in some other way.  At less than $100 for a new starter, I think the main issue is the time required for starter replacement - you have to pull the left engine side cover which requires a little puller.

[PhilB]

Wait a minute! A Ducati with big mileage and told to use regular ordinary fuel that commoners can buy? What's next you used dino oil avalaible from the auto parts with aftermarket oil filters?

lol.  No, I do believe in good oil and filters.  I used OEM filters, and full synthetic oil.  The manual recommended 20w/50, and I used that from about May to October, then switched to 10w/40 for Nov/Dec, winter storage, and Mar/Apr, as those months had a lot of temperatures in the 20's and 30's, up here in NH.  I didn't worry about the brand of oil much, just whatever synthetic was easily available in the right viscosity.

I generally used Yuasa batteries, and they typically lasted about 4 years (45K miles).  I did, when I moved from CA to NH in 2011, upgrade the cables in the starting circuit to 4 gauge, and install a dedicated ground cable from the starter back to the battery.  That helped a lot with cold starts; the stock setup didn't like trying to start it much below 40F.  I think I was on my 3rd starter motor, and 2nd sprag clutch, which I don't think is excessive for 265K miles.

Here's a pic, from 2016, on the weekend she turned over 250K miles.




PhilB

[PhilB]

I was just going to mention PhilB and his semi-famous bulletproof Ducati, but the original popped up!

Phil, I still find your story heartbreaking.    To put that kind of mileage on a bike, and hope to do even more—�only to be taken out by some dim wit pulling out of a McDonald’s!   

Argh. 

Are you still riding your other M900?

It was very sad, and I still miss that bike.  OTOH, I did not get any permanent injuries, and am still riding, so it could have been a lot worse.  Yes, I'm still riding the other M900 -- a 1995 I had bought for my wife at the time, that she gave to me in the divorce.  And I'm still looking at going to a sport-tourer when I have my finances straightened out.  Leading contenders are Ducati 939SS, or Guzzi Griso or Norge (which is why I'm here).

PhilB

[Perazzimx14]

lol.  No, I do believe in good oil and filters.  I used OEM filters, and full synthetic oil.  The manual recommended 20w/50, and I used that from about May to October, then switched to 10w/40 for Nov/Dec, winter storage, and Mar/Apr, as those months had a lot of temperatures in the 20's and 30's, up here in NH. I didn't worry about the brand of oil much, just whatever synthetic was easily available in the right viscosity.

I generally used Yuasa batteries, and they typically lasted about 4 years (45K miles).  I did, when I moved from CA to NH in 2011, upgrade the cables in the starting circuit to 4 gauge, and install a dedicated ground cable from the starter back to the battery.  That helped a lot with cold starts; the stock setup didn't like trying to start it much below 40F.  I think I was on my 3rd starter motor, and 2nd sprag clutch, which I don't think is excessive for 265K miles.

Here's a pic, from 2016, on the weekend she turned over 250K miles.




PhilB

Are you trying to break the internet?

[PhilB]

Phil, I'm not sure your style of riding but my 939 is the best handling bike I've ever ridden and more comfortable my EV and V11 Sport.  I've ridden  both the Norge and Griso as well and find them nice but I bought the Supersport.  It certainly has it quirks but it's been dependable and lots of fun.  Since the bike never really took off for Ducati, there are a few of them out there at a good price.

I like a brisk ride, but with plenty of reserve in real life roads.  I also like an occasional trackday, but I'm not any sort of expert.  Eventually, I'll probably get a good old 998 for trackdays and sport riding.

Other contenders for the sport-touring bike were the KTM 1290GT (but I can't find enough data on longevity and durability), and the Motus MST (which was one hell of a bike, if only they hadn't gone out of business).  The one other that I haven't had a chance to testride yet, but could be a contender, is the Kawasaki H2 SX SE.  Everything else I can think of, I've checked out.  (Of course, if BMW built a K1600R, with about 150 lbs lopped off of it, that would be a contender as well.)

PhilB

[clubman]

I use Motobatt’s MB16AU on mine, it’s designed as a direct replacement and isn’t too expensive.

http://www.motobatt.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=86&year=92-96&cc=900&manufacturer_id=30&category_id=63&model_id=191

Re valve guides on the first belt drive 900SSs, they would go about 12K miles before starting to smoke but over the course of several material changes the issue was solved by the mid-90s.

Cool, thanks. I'll file this, it doesn't look like the BikeMaster is coming back

[clubman]

The ‘rough on batteries’ perspective probably comes from Ducati starters being under spec’d and after maybe 20K miles of wear needing a good battery to spin the engine.  On the other hand, aftermarket Ducati starters are so inexpensive that it’s hardly worth trying to stretch their life - if I recall correctly the last one I bought was $50, and seems to be virtually identical to the ‘expensive’ $100 version that I previously bought.

Some Ducatis have weak charging systems which doesn’t help either, but it’s not true for many others.

This