Thinking outside the box(guzzi subject)

[Ncdan]

As some of you guys know I have an ongoing problem again with the TPS on my 2015 1400 Tourer.
When I replace this sensor it will be the third in 8k miles this bike has went through and I’m about to come to the point that enough is enough, either the problem must be fixed or the bike must go.
It’s my understanding that in 2017 the TPS sensor was moved to the throttles location, that being done indicates that Guzzis geniuses must have acknowledged an obvious problem with the TPS choice they made at first.
Question at hand. Is there any reason, other than cost, that the Updated TPS in the 2017 models can’t replace the under the tank model oh the 2014-2016 models.
Voices of reason appreciation greatly.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have never worked on a 1400 so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I imagine that any TPS is just working on 0 - 5 Volts, it shouldn't matter where it is located.
There are TPSs that dont work on a slide wire, instead they work on a Hall Effect sensor, in theory they should be indestructible.
Tell me is the present sensor at the top of or underneath the throttle body?
Looking at the schematic I think its called a MAP Sensor
Almost every modern car has the same thing, they go forever.

[Ncdan]

I imagine that any TPS is just working on 0 - 5 Volts, it shouldn't matter where it is located.
There are TPSs that dont work on a slide wire, instead they work on a Hall Effect sensor, in theory they should be indestructible.
Tell me is the present sensor at the top of or underneath the throttle body?

On top, I think. We removed the tank and it was right there. Thanks for the response 👍

[Kiwi_Roy]

On top, I think. We removed the tank and it was right there. Thanks for the response 👍

It should be safe from leaking fuel then.
I'm not sure why there are 4 wires on this sensor, previous models only had 3, there seems to be some connection to the Clutch Switch (16), I can't figure that out.
Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong item (49)
You should be able to check the Voltage coming of the TPS just like previous ones
Actually I think I may be out of my depth, the schematic doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Ncdan]

It should be safe from leaking fuel then.
I'm not sure why there are 4 wires on this sensor, previous models only had 3, there seems to be some connection to the Clutch Switch (16), I can't figure that out.
Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong item (49)
You should be able to check the Voltage coming of the TPS just like previous ones
Actually I think I may be out of my depth, the schematic doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Thanks Roy for the effort to help. There are apparently many issues with these sensors that makes no sense too even the manufacturer or the Piaggio motorcycle company.
There are many more questions about this TPS than answers🤔

[Don G]

MAP and TPS sensors are two different critters....  DonG

[Bulldog9]

As some of you guys know I have an ongoing problem again with the TPS on my 2015 1400 Tourer.
When I replace this sensor it will be the third in 8k miles this bike has went through and I’m about to come to the point that enough is enough, either the problem must be fixed or the bike must go.
It’s my understanding that in 2017 the TPS sensor was moved to the throttles location, that being done indicates that Guzzis geniuses must have acknowledged an obvious problem with the TPS choice they made at first.
Question at hand. Is there any reason, other than cost, that the Updated TPS in the 2017 models can’t replace the under the tank model oh the 2014-2016 models.
Voices of reason appreciation greatly.

Theoretically it 'could' work, depends on whether or not the two TPS units are plug and play. Meaning does the under tank unit have the same plug and pin arrangement as the plug from the handlebar unit. If the units used the same number of wires, and all were pinned the same, you may be able to get away with it. I would think at a minimum, the immediate problem would be two female connectors, the one in the chassis to bike that plugged in to the under tank TPS, and the plug lead coming from the throttle TPPS is likely female too. In this case, you would have to find two male connectors and create the 'patch cable' to go between them. If indeed the two TPS units share the same number of wires, inputs, outputs and voltage/signals, this could be done.  I'd look at the wiring diagram of the two and start tracing out the circuits.

But that is the simple part. I have no idea if they changed/updated the ECU when they changed the TPS to the handlebar.

You have to decide if it is worth the time and cost.

[Ncdan]

Theoretically it 'could' work, depends on whether or not the two TPS units are plug and play. Meaning does the under tank unit have the same plug and pin arrangement as the plug from the handlebar unit. If the units used the same number of wires, and all were pinned the same, you may be able to get away with it. I would think at a minimum, the immediate problem would be two female connectors, the one in the chassis to bike that plugged in to the under tank TPS, and the plug lead coming from the throttle TPPS is likely female too. In this case, you would have to find two male connectors and create the 'patch cable' to go between them. If indeed the two TPS units share the same number of wires, inputs, outputs and voltage/signals, this could be done.  I'd look at the wiring diagram of the two and start tracing out the circuits.

But that is the simple part. I have no idea if they changed/updated the ECU when they changed the TPS to the handlebar.

You have to decide if it is worth the time and cost.

That’s a good Analysis and I think the answer lies within. At the best, it’s questionable as to the outcome. At worst tree cost and time could  be devastating. However having 3 bad TPS sensors in 8k miles is also devastating:(

[Kiwi_Roy]

MAP and TPS sensors are two different critters....  DonG

Then can you point me to the TPS?
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Entire.gif
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Legend.gif
Looking at the Legend is it item (49) or (50)?
Perhaps it doesn't have a TPS as we have grown to think of it but its part of the Motorized Throttle?
So I figure (50) talks to (51), it seems very complicated this ride by wire. item (51) seems to check and double check that its output matches the twist grip position, I think the TPS would be a function of item (50)
Ncdan can you identify from the diagram what actual part you are replacing? (??)

[lucian]

Being RBW , it does not have a tps sensor as used in older EFI throttle bodies. They  were necessary to inform the ECU as to the exact  throttle plate opening which was being manually controlled. The RBW system uses a demand sensor to interpret the rider input to the twist grip and relay the information to the ECU and a stop motor controlling the throttle plate opening. The ECU uses input from the demand sensor as well as an intake air sensor and lambdas to to trim various  parameters of the air,- fuel , timing and warm up maps stored in the ECU.  Unfortunately it adds complexity to what used to be a really simple system. It is for the most part reliable but with the many safety fail safes built in one really needs to be able to access the diagnostic codes to trouble shoot any errors, or be at the mercy of the few dealers out there.  I have not heard about any change to the demand sensor on the 2017 and later models but will investigate. Thanks for sharing that Dan.

Kiwi,, the Throttle Position sensor Dan is referring to is #51 on the legend  Aprillia part # BO 44414

[Kiwi_Roy]

Lucian, thanks for the confirmation, I was coming to a similar conclusion.
So what part is he changing, item (51)?

[lucian]

Yep That's it , It sits under the front of the tank and is connected to the twist grip cables.   here is a new one
https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=13455&sku=B044414&description=OEM+Aprilia+Demand+Sensor+%2D+B044414+%28ex+872664%29

As far as I can tell only the V85 has the new type sensor on the twist grip.

[beetle]

2017 & later Cali has the demand sensor in the throttle assembly. However, the parts diagram for the same model also shows a demand sensor in the original position. Guzzi being Guzzi.  I suspect you would also need the entire wiring loom.

Item 7 "Electric Pulse"



Item 21 "Accelerator position sensor"

[lucian]

Seems odd it would show a spool operated potentiometer with no cables to rotate it. 

[Ncdan]

Yep That's it , It sits under the front of the tank and is connected to the twist grip cables.   here is a new one
https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=13455&sku=B044414&description=OEM+Aprilia+Demand+Sensor+%2D+B044414+%28ex+872664%29

As far as I can tell only the V85 has the new type sensor on the twist grip.

Thanks Mark. Lucian and I were just talking about this very issue. Thanks for shedding light on the subject. I’m just going to replace the sensor like last time. Maybe number 3 will be the winner.